Monster Albums

[Axl_Rose]

'Appetite For Destruction', 'Nevermind' or 'Slippery when Wet (lol)'
Will there ever be albums like this again that just blow people away across the board?

[GeorgeHarrison]

True...it's been a long time without any GOOD albums on the charts. There is a lot of rubbish nowadays...I think we need another Elvis...
Anyway, which one do you think was the last great album?

[Gainer]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
'Appetite For Destruction', 'Nevermind' or 'Slippery when Wet (lol)'
Will there ever be albums like this again that just blow people away across the board?
I agree with those as being HUGE albums, but I think that Ten should be on there.

[aiwass]

And Images & Words.



Additionally, here are some fairly recent "monster" albums:

Symphony X - The Odyssey.

Andromeda - Extension of the Wish, II = I (first one was more of a "statement", second one more of an identity)

Dimmu Borgir - Death Cult Armageddon

Opeth - Blackwater Park

Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane

Nevermore - Enemies of Reality

[PonyOne]

the problem is that there wasn't really a massive number of people blown away by any of those albums, no matter how good they are. Even in the overall rock world, they made ripples, where Nevermind was like an H-Bomb.

The last album that I can think of, that made people go "whoa" and that 3/4 of rock listeners own, was probably Aenema by Tool.

[aiwass]

Those albums are pretty new, so I don't think they've had time to make their impact yet.


Images and Words was huge though. Sales aside (although it sold sh*tloads), it defined the new wave of progressive metal as we know it.

[Axl_Rose]

Well I havent heard any of the albums Aiwass mentioned.. so they cant be monster albums :) I mean albums that blew away the fans of their particular genre but also broke into the mainstream!
I think one album to look out for is the new Aerosmith Album. They have got back there old 70s producer and claim they are gona go back to there simple riff rock style!
Also Slash Matt and duffs new band Velvet Revolver seem to be on the right wavelength.
I think monster Albums reflect particular fashions so far as appearence... I mean you gould try and immitate the style and lifestyle of slash or kurt back in those days. But these days people dont seem to, its like the image of what a rock band is is now inaccessible, unobtainable. Its no longer in our culture to be a rock fan, esp in the UK.
Blame what you like, drugs, drink or just the development of other sports and hobbies, but I doubt there will ever be monster albums or classic rock bands because the people of my guitaring generation have any real guitar heros :(

[sambob]

Helloween - Keeper of the Seven Keys
Greg Howe - Self Titled
Shawn Lane - Powers of Ten
Frank Gambale - The Great Explorers

And maybe the monsterest of them all, Yngwie J Malmsteen - Rising Force.

Or maybe Jason Becker's Perpetual Burn.

Or maybe...

[Azrael]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
Well I havent heard any of the albums Aiwass mentioned.. so they cant be monster albums :)

at least images and words and symphony x are *L*

infact there are hundreds of "monster" albums out there, but many of them have never gotten the attention that they deserve.
My monsteralbum for now is "The Yellow Shark" by Frank Zappa (Ensemble Modern performance)

[Slow Diver]

The Fragile by NIN was pretty huge.

[aiwass]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
Well I havent heard any of the albums Aiwass mentioned.. so they cant be monster albums :)

That's your problem, not mine.

[Axl_Rose]

Originally posted by aiwass

That's your problem, not mine. [/B]

Calm down! Sometimes I think some you guys just use this forum to release stress. A Monster album, by definition, or at least in my interpritation, is successful across the board, and gets everyone talking. Im pretty clued up on my music and if you put a list of so called monster albums that I havent heard of then they cant be! I havent heard people talking about them here... or on TV... or radio.. or in mags.. or via friends..

[Slow Diver]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
I havent heard people talking about them here... or on TV... or radio.. or in mags.. or via friends..
Well that is not a strong argument. Media has not been a criteria for whether music is good or not for decades, at least one.

[Edited by Azrael on 10-14-2003 at 08:17 AM]

[Azrael]

oh crap.. oooh crap.. now i made a mistake - instead of hitting "quote" hit edit .. whooops.. sorry slowdiver *hides*

[Azrael]

here´s the original plus what i wanted to say:

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
I havent heard people talking about them here... or on TV... or radio.. or in mags.. or via friends..
Well that is not a strong argument. Media has not been a criteria for whether music is good or not for decades, at least one.

[Edited by Slow Diver on 10-14-2003 at 06:21 AM]

true - plus you cant always watch every TV-show or radio program or whatever. so putting up something like "i havent heard it so it cant be a monster album" is a bit preposterous.

[Azrael]

.... am i completely crazy now????

oh my .. i´m losing my mind *LOL* WHAAAAAAAAAAA????????

http://www.mind-gate.com/Smilies/suck.png

[aiwass]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
Originally posted by aiwass

That's your problem, not mine.

Calm down! Sometimes I think some you guys just use this forum to release stress. A Monster album, by definition, or at least in my interpritation, is successful across the board, and gets everyone talking. Im pretty clued up on my music and if you put a list of so called monster albums that I havent heard of then they cant be! I havent heard people talking about them here... or on TV... or radio.. or in mags.. or via friends.. [/B]


Could it be that you're not that clued up on music after all? No... there has to be something wrong with my list.

By "monster album", I mean albums that were revolutionary, defined a band, or a defined a genre. For instance, "Death Cult Armageddon" is by far Dimmu Borgir's most musically mature outing to date. It's getting radio- and MTV airing, which is helping commercialize black metal, and more and more people are getting exposed to their mix of classical music and extreme metal, a combination unheard of to many. Therefore, I dub it a "monster" album.

Another example: Shawn Lane's "Powers of Ten" (thanks for mentioning that one, Sambob, I kinda forgot... :p) never sold platinum or anything like that, yet it revolutionized modern guitar playing in a way only possibly paralleled by Allan Holdsworth or maybe Hendrix back in the day. Despite being obscure, it made an enormous impact, and could therefore be classified as a "monster" album.


Oh and if sales were the determining factor, Hanson's "Middle of Nowhere" was indeed a "monster" album...

[Edited by aiwass on 10-14-2003 at 10:33 AM]

[Slow Diver]

LOL :D Don't worry Azrael...this kinda livened up this otherwise starting-to-become-negative thread.

[Axl_Rose]

This is ridiculous, a lot of people here would sooner start a slagging match than an interesting thread. Awiass, are you honestly saying the 7 or 8 albums you listed are any where near as successful or influencial as something like 'Nevermind'. EVERYBODY knows of 'Nevermind'!!
You hear Guns n Roses, Nirnava, Metallica etc mentioned on this site everyday, on tv everyday, in papers everyday, talked about by kids everyday! They have monster albums. Nevermind, Appetite and the Black album for example.

Ive noticed for some time now how negative some people are on this site. Just read my first post and answer the flaming question without all this snobbery of musical preferences

[Pantallica1]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
This is ridiculous, a lot of people here would sooner start a slagging match than an interesting thread. Awiass, are you honestly saying the 7 or 8 albums you listed are any where near as successful or influencial as something like 'Nevermind'. EVERYBODY knows of 'Nevermind'!!
You hear Guns n Roses, Nirnava, Metallica etc mentioned on this site everyday, on tv everyday, in papers everyday, talked about by kids everyday! They have monster albums. Nevermind, Appetite and the Black album for example.

Ive noticed for some time now how negative some people are on this site. Just read my first post and answer the flaming question without all this snobbery of musical preferences

Funny, now you've turned into the snob. aiwass was just simply stating his opinion. If you ask for people's opinions and they give them, and then, you don't like the outcome, don't cry about it. It's just an opinion, everyone is entitled to one.

To you, Nevermind, Appetite, the Black Album, may have been monster albums, but to aiwass, his choices are different. Many people see different kinds of music as influential and revolutionary. If you ask me, I don't even think the Black album is a Monster Album. It's just the first album that Metallica had that went mainstream. Master of Puppets, And Justice, and Ride the Lightning, were way bigger Monster Albums in the fact that they revolutionized music.

You should change the thread to, Albums that went Mainstream, or Albums that everyone noticed. Just because it sells doesn't make it influential or revolutionary or a monster album, it makes it popular.

Many of the albums that Aiwass mentioned (I haven't heard them all) had very big impacts and defined many of the bands that produced them.

To me if it's a monster album, it changes how the music is done in general, not how many people can rip off the same stuff (see: Nevermind, nu-metal) over and over until it's no longer popular.

[iamthe_eggman]

FIGHT!! FIGHT!! FIGHT!!

Oh, wait a second... can't do that anymore, now that I'm a moderator.... Darn!


Well, I think I see the valid points of both sides of the argument, and I think the major problem is that Axl_Rose and aiwass have differing definitions of "monster". Basically, I think Axl_Rose feels a monster album is one whose impact is felt long after its release. One that not only has strong sales, airplay, popularity, but also artistic integrity and innovation, etc.

But, according to aiwass, a monster album should be judged solely on artisitic merits and innovation/influence. Actually, major sales/airplay would probably lower its "monster" rating in aiwass' eyes.

I think I lean more towards Axl's definition, which would include albums like Nevermind, Ten, Sgt. Pepper, etc. which were sold well, were totally influential as well as innovative.

And, yes, the definition would include the Backstreet Boys' first album, which I would gladly concede was a "monster"!

[metalisbest]

I don't consider an album to be monster because everyone has heard it and liked some of it. I consider a monster album one that the people who have listened to it were blown away by it. My two albums for that would be "Mer De Norms" and "Thirteenth Step" by A Perfect Circle. They aren't popular albums, but everyone that I know who has listened to them were blown away by the albums.

[Axl_Rose]

Woa- Pantallica, how have I became a snob?!?!?!?
READ MY FIRST POST!! Answer the flaming question!! I just feel aiwass is being really elitist so far as the music he knows and likes is somehow above music thats classed as more mainstream. Its the old classic where people like him wana own small bands and carry themaround in there back pocket as though they own them :)
Forget the bitchy posts and just answer my question! Do you think there will be another 'Nevermind' or 'Appetite for Destruction'!!
And yea I know that the 'Black Album' isnt as good or as innovative as other tallica albums but I just mentioned it becuase it was so successful!

[Slow Diver]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
Its the old classic where people like him wana own small bands and carry themaround in there back pocket as though they own them :)

F*ck, that was rude, and stupid...
Come on man, you are being ridiculous. Do you really think that everybody who is a great musician becomes sucesfull, sells 20million copies and gets shown on MTV.
Small bands??!!?? Sh*T! I think aiwiss(?) mentioned Dimmu Borigir, and I guess I don't like them , but are you sure they are small?
You are really ridiculous, man, I mean it. This post, is really the most stupid thing I have read on GT. REALY.

[iamthe_eggman]

Well, I think I'll step in again in Axl's defense.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily the case with aiwass, but I have had some experience with people who are just like what Axl described. They never seem to like mainstream music, and are always listening to the newest indie band that you've never heard of and is "the best ever".

That attitude just drives me nuts. I mean, sure, maybe you'll find a band that no one has ever heard of and is pretty good, but I truly believe that most (and I stress most) bands that make it big do so on the basis of some amount of talent. Most indie bands are still indie for a reason; at least the few that I've heard.

Do you really think that there's a band out there that has yet to be "discovered" that is better than U2? Radiohead? The Beatles? Pink Floyd? Popularity and album sales sometimes do mark a successful career.

[Zeppelin]

I dont like prog metal at all, and usually listen to blues or classic players mostly. However, images and words is one of the most used cs ive got. I tend to listen to it every day and sometimes few times per day.
Youll never see dream theater on mtv , at least not on mtv europe and im not sure if theyve got any videos BUT images and words IS a monster album. You dont have to sell 20 million copies to influent all the other people around. A great example can be Stevie Ray Vaughan who ifnluented ALL the players from kirk hammet, to eric clapton, without being shown on mtv all day long.

[aiwass]

What a retarded thread this has turned into...


Dude, I'M ELITIST? You're the one who claimed that if you don't know it, it's not a monster album...

So my musical tastes are not mainstream. That doesn't mean I don't know music! On the contrary, it means I have to work just a bit harder to find good music, since I don't have radio and MTV force-feeding me all sorts of stuff. I don't think my tastes are any "better" than anybody else's, however your condescending tone towards non-mainstream music is quite offensive, not to mention ignorant.

Also, if one of the jazz cats on this forum mentioned some Charlie Parker album that I hadn't heard of, I wouldn't discard it simply because I didn't know it, since I know myself well enough to tell myself "Dude, you don't know diddly sh*t about jazz , so shut the hell up, and go check out some Charlie Parker albums."

I never said anything like "Images and Words is SOOOO much more of a monster album than Nevermind!"
Granted, Nevermind sold multiples of what I&W did, but you have to understand that grunge has always sold much more than progressive, simply because grunge is MORE MAINSTREAM than progressive (or jazz or fusion or whatever for that matter). Therefore, even if an album is the greatest ever in a rather obscure genre, its commercial success is NOT TO COMPARE with that of an album in a mainstream genre, simply because the differences in advertisement, public exposure and sheer musical accessibility between the genres are just too great. Two albums can be equally great, even if one outsells the other by far.


Concerning your words about "owning a band and carrying them around in your pocket"...

Dimmu Borgir is the most commercially succesful, critically acclaimed black metal band in the world. They've sold gold, platinum, you name it, and have recorded an album with the Gothenburg Opera (or maybe Philharmonic, can't remember) Orchestra. They are very much famous, and their latest album is now even getting some radio airplay, seeing as their music is now too musically mature to overlook anymore, even if it is heavy, dark, and has lyrics about Satan.

Pain of Salvation on the other hand have attained a cult status among prog fans, and Daniel Gildenlöw has been dubbed one of the greatest modern songwriters, singers and lyricists ever, but these guys make their money teaching at music conservatories, without considerable commercial success.

These are two sides of the spectrum, and you know what? I value them equally.

I like Dream Theater (a VERY famous band whether you think so or not), and I love Symphony X (relatively obscure). I like Aghora (an Indian-inspired prog metal college project from Berklee), Shawn Lane (fusion artist, best guitarist who ever lived, died recently because he was too poor to pay for medical treatment), Allan Holdsworth (one of the world's finest jazz improvisers, sells his guitars to pay the rent now and then), and yet I still think Evanescence, with their MTV airplay and all, are a kickass band.

I honestly don't give a sh*t if somebody is making money or not, I'm in this for the music, and with the current statistics of how many bands ACTUALLY MAKE IT today, not to mention the criteria for such merit, it is only logical that the majority of the good bands in the world will remain unknown to the public.


And right now, you're starting to piss me off...

[aiwass]

Originally posted by iamthe_eggman
Well, I think I'll step in again in Axl's defense.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily the case with aiwass, but I have had some experience with people who are just like what Axl described. They never seem to like mainstream music, and are always listening to the newest indie band that you've never heard of and is "the best ever".

That attitude just drives me nuts. I mean, sure, maybe you'll find a band that no one has ever heard of and is pretty good, but I truly believe that most (and I stress most) bands that make it big do so on the basis of some amount of talent. Most indie bands are still indie for a reason; at least the few that I've heard.

I know what you mean. In the prog scene, there are way too many snobs. I agree I sometimes succumb to snobbery (don't we all now and then?), but I have always kept it very clear that I will never judge a book (or CD) by its cover, but rather let the music to the talking. For what it's worth, I think Michael Jackson is the shiznit.

Moreover, I think Axl has indeed proven himself prone to snobbery in this thread, as he quite rudely discriminates against people with non-mainstream musical tastes, instantly assuming that we are simply looking for acceptance in a millieu, and blatantly stating that we don't even know what real music is about.

[Axl_Rose]

This is hilarious. Im just your average young guitarist who logs on to this site every now and then to chat about bands and learn a thing or two on guitar!

Slow driver - What are you on about? have you even read what Ive been saying?!?!? If you formulated your arguments in a mature and gramatically correct manner then maybe we'll get somewhere.

Aiwass - I didnt even bother reading your massive post! And by the sounds of it you didnt read my first post!! The albums you stated arent what I was asking about! You said it was my problem I hadnt heard of the bands like it was an issue!

The whole point of this thread was pretty simple!

Im snobbish against musical tastes?!?! Have you seen my CD collection. Some people need to lighten up here :) Cheers Eggman, looks like your the only one here who can read properly!

Bye, Im off to play pool

[zepp_rules]

my monster album is Blind Guardian's Nightfall in Middle Earth. it's personally my favortie album of all time as well as probably their biggest one. not that i care, but it's called the greatest power metal album ever. titles like those are nice, but they don't make an album "monster" being mainstream and selling a ****load of an album doesn't make them monster either. how many people would say that N'Sync's albums are monster. they went platinum.


to me a monster album, is one you can listen to for hours on end and ten or twenty years from now people will be still talking about it. it defines the group or the genre and is overall really special. of course everyone can have their own "monster" albums and that's great

[Zeppelin]

'Appetite For Destruction', 'Nevermind' or 'Slippery when Wet (lol)'
Will there ever be albums like this again that just blow people away across the board?


That was your question, so an expected answer was a name of an album
Aiwass named images and words.
From what i can see, he did answer your question.

[sambob]

Images and Words is DEFINATELY a monster album. Dream Theater is one of the best metal bands out there, and that album really put them in that position (i've always though that Alive and Falling Into Infinity were a bit weak)

[Slow Diver]

I'm not slow dRiver for Christ's sake!:) It sounds funny, though
My grammar sucks, alright. I'm not a native speaker so I'm kind of exused. You are also sometimes sloppy whith your expressions.
And I have read what you are saying and I still think it does not make any sense to me. The whole idea of monster albums is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeryyyyy subjective. To me neither of the albums you mentioned are any monster.(maybe nevermind was, yeah nevermind is monster, okay). I am not, though, one of those guys who only look for the newest indie band and try to be cool and stuff.
I really got pissed by what you said to aiwass about the pocket sized bands. In this respect let me ask you this question: Do you need to see some music on MTV, on the charts to actually consider it monster? Is that what you are saying?
Also, antother thing to consider -- these monster albums you mentioned are produced by some huge, monster producers. I guess Mike Clinck did AFD(I may be wrong about this one), Bob Rock did The Black Album, and Bouch Vig(?) I guess did Nevermind. Please have in mind that these guys know what they are doing, they know how to produce the music to be apealing to the mases. You have to be aware of that when you judge music -- indipendent bands at the same time do not have the oportunity to work with such names, to use the premium gear...
So yeah, there is really a lot to think about when discussing the monsterity(funny word) of an album. I guss we should leave that discussion, it's so subjective.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

Note:Dimmu Borgir worked with the Prague orchestra/philharmonica I believe.

Anyway,this monster album thing is quite simple.

Youve got the chart toppers that get a large amount of radio time and sell millions of albums(eg.Black album).

then youve got albums like 'Reign In Blood'(slayer)that get no airtime or exposure to the masses and sell hunderds of thousands.

And then youve got the bands that have a cult following,but are obscure(exhorder),get no airtime,exposure and sell maybe just a few thousnd+ albums.

They ALL have impact,but on different levels(with exeptions).

The Black album made heavier music more accesible to the listener...not sure how influencial it was as a guitarist.

Reign In Blood set the standard for thrash/speed metal and influenced millions.

Exhorder created a style of thier own and influenced many including pantera(I wont get into that).

Lots of bands fall in between these three levels of 'monsterness'.
Thats my outlook on it all.

If you rely on radio or eMTyV to bring you the latest in chart busting monsters then your only getting one piece of the pie.The same goes for the other levels of monster albums.

Personally,I stay away from mainstream like the plague since its fueled by money and sales,not talent or musical impact.I dont think that makes me an elitist...I just prefer integrity in music.Mainstream is just one big sad bandwagon...
Well thats a different debate all together.

Later! \m/

[u10ajf]

Note the amusing juxtapositioning of the following sentences within the SAME posting!

[i]
Aiwass - I didnt even bother reading your massive post!
[/B]

And

[i]
Cheers Eggman, looks like your the only one here who can read properly!
[/B]

I read that! Doctor heal yourself!

Monster albums? What would be a monster album for me would be different to what would be a monster album for Axl. Personally I'm more interested in what albums inspire the kinds of progressive musicians I listen to than what makes a killing through MTV sales. The fact is, particularly as video and TV are increasingly dominant over radio, beauty sells more than talent.
Sales go down as melodies become longer because fewer people can get to grips with more complex music. Short catchy hooks are fine as far as many people are concerned.
There is such a thing as musician's music; more syncopation, stranger scales, more modulations, longer melodic lines, wider chords, more technical prowess etc.
Knowing most of Dream Theater's music and having heard some symphony X I think that Aiwas's tastes are more of this ilk.

Here are my Monster albums:

Rush: Exit Stage Left 1982
King Crimson: Indiscipline 1984
Joe Satriani: Surfing with the Alien 1987
Pearl Jam: Ten 1991
Shaun Baxter: Open Invitation 1992
Extreme: Three sides to every Story 1992
Joe Satriani: The Extremist 1992
Hellecasters: Hell III: New Axes to Grind 1992
Dream Theater: Awake 1994

[u10ajf]

I forgot to mention Yngwie Malmsteem who is one of the most influential rock guitarists of all time and is a staggeringly phenomenally talented player. I wouldn't know what album to choose though not being well enough aquainted with his music.
I think someone who knows about jazz should make a posting with their favourite players; jazzers are REAL musicians.

[metalisbest]

Just to let everyone know, Yngwie Malmsteem does not influence me at all. I don't even think I've ever heard any of his music, and I've done pretty good without him.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

For yngwie...Rising Force IMO.
I envy a good jazz guitarist.Youve got to know theory and have some exellent technique.

Metalisbest,From bands youve mentioned in past posts it seems you stick with nu metal.Heres some suggestions.

Yngwie Malmsteen-Rising force
Lamb Of God-New American Gospel
Children Of Bodom-Hatebreeder
Meshuggah-Chaos Sphere
Morbid Angel-Altars Of Madness
Death-Sound Of Perserverence
Decapitated-Winds Of Creation
Immortal-Sons Of Northern Darkness
In Flames-Jester Race
Krisiun-Black Force Domain
Arch Enemy-Burning Bridges
At The Gates-Slaughter Of The Soul
Soilwork-Steel Bath Suicide
Scar Culture-Inscribe
Cryptopsy-Whisper Supremacy

And I could go on forever,but that should introduce you to many other bands.

Later! \m/

[metalisbest]

I'm not all into nu-metal, but no one talks about anything else on here. I've heard some of those bands' music before, but I'm not into shred that much, but I'll check em out. Thanks bro.

[u10ajf]

I just got Meshuggah's "Destroy,erase, Improve" through the post today. I've listened to it once and I'm extremely impressed with the standard of playing, lots of complex rhythms perfectly executed and the guitar and drums particularly impressed me. I'm not sure I'm that into the full on metal thing though; does anyone know if Fredrik Thordendal has any solo albums? As someone mentioned on another thread it sounds like he's jazz influenced. He reminds me of a cross between George Lynch (Gruesome tapping and heavy tone) and Holdsworth (wicked legato, odd timings, creamier tone he uses in places) and he uses a lot of volume swells. If you like your metal gruesome but brainy you should check these guys out.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

I'm not sure if thordendal has any solo/side project stuff,but I know he has produced alot of great bands in his studio.

[u10ajf]

Hey guys, now I'm on a machine with broadband so it's easy to search for these things. I've got a couple of links to reviews of a thordendal solo project:
http://www.dvsrecords.com/edgeoftime/e12/r12atmo.shtml
http://www.his.com/~sha3u/reviews/sol.html
sounds like this is a similarly uncompromising but high quality product.