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PonyOne
09-22-2003, 02:30 PM
My birthday's in two days. I'll finally be out of the teens that offered me so much misery and confusion, and be one step closer to being an adult. In the field I work in (car sales) I am by far the youngest person you're gonna find, and yesterday I had like four people tell me that I shouldn't take days off because I'm only 19, and I don't have kids, and so I don't understand anything about responsibility, etc etc. Having people nag me about how young I am is one thing that I cannot tolerate since I have had more of a life up to this point than most 50 year olds. So this just kinda brings my day down.

My girlfriend comes and picks me up, and we're driving home. Spontaneity ensues, and I'm like, "hey, let's go to the farmer's market." The farmer's market is an LA landmark, a collection of quirky little shops and restaurants, that has been there since the earlier part of the last century. Adjacent to it is The Grove, which was intended to be a modern supplemental to the Farmer's Market. The LA board of commerce wouldn't allow an Abercrombie, Starbucks, or Barnes & Noble to be built in the farmer's market, so some developers bought the land next to it and put it up. It's supposed to be patterned after an italian plaza, and it does so fleetingly.

Regardless it was nice out, the West Coast sunset painted a beautiful orange glow that deepened every ten minutes, and it was still about 70 degrees out with a cool breeze and a gentle stillness to the air. We walked into the farmer's market, and my wandering eyes fixate on something familiar. It's one of my first girlfriends, and the one who introduced me to the wonders of the rumormill and the art of being vindictive. This wouldn't be weird if I was in Seattle or Auburn, WA, which is where we were. But Los Angeles??? Janette was always easy to identify by her looks. She is very pretty, half irish, half korean, with an uncharactaristically deep (alto) voice. She's not really my type of girl anymore, I go for busty and wide-hipped, two things she is not.

She was chatting with who I take is her current boyfriend, who looks suspiciously similar to me, just not as built. She looked up for a moment and saw me, and there was a brief moment of abject confusion. My girlfriend has this thing with wnating me to go find and talk to all my ex's to close the past or something, so she was like "come on, go talk to her" for five minutes. I've already come to terms with my past in my mind and I prefer to leave it where it is: in the past, in two cities I don't live near.

The niceness and ambience of the evening was further punctuated by my girlfriend insisting on running into the Apple store so she could gape at a new G5 with no software on it and move the mouse around, start going through the sale shoes at Nordstroms, and then going upstairs to see what bargains were on the shirt rack, into Victoria's Secret to see if they have any 36DD/DDD bras or corset tops. Then we went into the Barnes and Noble to see if they had the Interpol CD (they didn't), and Gaby discovers the wonder that is the B&N CD sampler system. YOu scan in a CD and you can listen to all the songs. So she goes straight for the Princess Mononoke CD and starts listening to silly Japanese ambient crap with little peeps and shakey sounds, and goes "OH, TRISTAN LISTEN! It's the song they played when those little tree guys appeared!" and pushes the headphones toward me. I'm like "Oh, yeah" and put it on for about 3 seconds and am like "neat, yeah, I need to find the bathroom." To which she picks up the Monsoon Wedding sountrack and scans it and goes "wait, I wonder if they have that silly Bollywood song on this, here, listen" and hands me the headphones. I finally get sick of it and am like "GABY, I need to use the bathroom. I really don't give a crap about whether it's there or not, honestly. I don't like 'silly' music."

All this does is compound to me the fact that although we see eye to eye on a number of groups and styles, to my girlfriend, music that is silly rules the day. This doesn't help my mood.

Then I get home, and by this point I'm starting to feel okay. I check my messages and there's a message from my dad: "Hi Tristan, this is dad... i have to give you the news... call me when you get this no matter how late it is." I call, and discover that my grandfather is on his deathbed. I talk to my mom (it's her dad) for an hour or two; my grnadfather was not the greatest guy ever. He beat his kids, he beat his wife, and he drank himself into oblivion. Since my grandparents divorced in 1997, he's been living in a motel in southern Washington, and according to my uncle, who had been caring for him, he was unable to walk, control his bowels, or speak coherently for the past 2 or so years. At one point he had to be taken to the hospital and have his feet partially amputated becuase he put his shoes in too tight and left them on for a month. His blood circulation was so bad that his feet were basically rotting off his body. I heard how they looked from my uncle and when i think of the description now, it makes me want to puke.

He used to be a semi-pro-boxer in the 50's, and was #1 on the Army boxing team. He was way into "being a man" and such, and when an accident destroyed one of his legs and he had to have a metal bar put across the bones to stabilize them, he was discharged and never boxed again. But he got in enough barfights and punched his kids enough that he never really lost it.

I was his favorite grandkid, and he would take me out to see Seahawks football games when I was a kid, and would take me into the backyard to throw balls to me and such. The meager things I know about sports come from him. Through most of my childhood I thought he was great until, when my family went broke and we had to move in with them, I was home sick from school and heard him screaming, and came upstairs to see him in the process of beating my grandma. From then on I was terrified of him.

It's hard to remember the good things about him. The guy was a raging racist, ironic inasmuch as he's part black, and my grandmother part Jewish, but at least as far as he goes, it was probably a backlash from the time period he grew up in. When my uncle dated a girl who was Korean/Italian (there are more Asain-White mixed couples in Washington State than anywhere else in the world; I dated a couple mixed girls there as well), he literally chased the two of them down the driveway with a bat. When I was a kid I went to a school in a black neighborhood and was constantly getting beaten up in the Rodney King days, so he explained to me from his recliner the physical weaknesses of black people, and how I could exploit them.

He had to take everything like a man, and so did all of the boys: when he went to the dentist to get a root canal, he wouoldn't have antibiotics. When they did surgery on his leg he only let them do local anesthsia becuase he wanted to be awake to see the process. He'd punch through doors and walls and windows and laugh at the blood, that was the type of guy he was.

My dad called me at six this morning. He'd died ten minutes earlier, and my mom is flying to Seattle with my sister to help with funeral arrangements. I believe that God understands what drives us to do the horrible things we do and that because of that there is no hell, because there are no sins that cannot be forgiven. All I can do is hope that things are going to get better for him from here on out. I'm not crying. He wouldn't want me to.

Donald Creery, 1931-2003.

Incidents Happen
09-22-2003, 06:09 PM
That was an awesome post, Pony; you should consider being a journalist or or a freelance writer or something like that, you have some good writing skills.

~Incidents

andy82
09-22-2003, 11:52 PM
Hmm I can related to 3 things in this post, 1. My birthday is this friday, and Happy birthday Pony!! :D 2. I'm Korean (Blood wise on paper me Aussie) 3. The Girlfriend factor, walking around shops dragging my ass around.

u10ajf
09-23-2003, 03:46 PM
Quote
"I believe that God understands what drives us to do the horrible things we do and that because of that there is no hell, because there are no sins that cannot be forgiven."

The Bible says that the one unforgiveable sin is "Blasphemy against the holy spirit", I don't know what that means but i think that it is probably nihilism, the ultra-cynical viewpoint that morality is just a concept and has no reality.
For a while when I was a teenager I believed I was predestined to go to hell and burn for eternity because I hated God for wishing damnation on my non-believing father and sister. After a while I began to believe in the catholic idea of purgatory; that we spend a while being made suitable for acceptance into heaven. I have wondered what would be left of me if I was cleansed of error. Perhaps the punishment for sin is to loose identity, like a lobotomy of the spirit.

But what is morality? People have had to fight for our liberty, to kill for us. Who is the better person, the conscientious objector with his goosefeather and bloodless hands or the soldier who took on the burden of his guilt by fighting for the rights of both.
To make a society of peace lovers what is needed is a war. All that it needs to make a war is a side that will back down for long enough that they will be oppressed and eventually have to fight back with vengeance. The cycle never seems to end.

If there is a God I want to be judged not on my beliefs but my actions. My actions are not too good and I am too lazy to defend the rights of those in the third world but the bible tells me if I don't believe in God then he won't believe in me.

Still, I can't play a harp..

^Chacron^
09-24-2003, 10:58 AM
Happy Birthday dude, turning 20 was cool for me too, finally not being a teenager anymore is a great feeling...enjoy it forever :D You have a real talent for storytelling too, I was moved by this post :)

chucklivesoninmyheart
09-24-2003, 01:56 PM
Sorry about your grandfather pony...and happy birthday.
I just want to say that you have things..well..very,very good.At just the age of 20 you pretty much have your life together(I'm not saying you had it handed to you).I'm 18 with a dying father,schizophrenic sister,2 mentally ill brothers and a mother who now works 3 jobs and well on here way to the grave...both my aunts are dying of cancer,1 I am close to..I have very serious social anxiety,panic attacks/depression and am on social security if thats an indication of how serious it is.I dropped out of school without much choice do to my circumstances.Ive been in and out of mental health "in patient" programs since ten...leaving me with a stack of papers that exclude me from many good jobs.
I cant say I have it worse than you since I dont know you personally or other situations in your life that are undisclosed.Just remember that somone will always have it worse than you...it gets me through.
As far as the god issue goes...
I find him to be a sadist that has had no place in my life besides the fear of hell instiled in me at an early age...which prevents me from pulling away completeley.
Bible thumpers worship a different god then I know.They worship and love him for sending his son to die on a cross so that they could be cleansed of there sins and have eternal life.I know the god that had people stoned and slaughterd..I know the god that left this earth in absence and suffering...left a broken people unnatended...the god of Isaiah 45:7 "I do good and create evil".......
the god that can break his own laws...the meglomainiac that wants followers for his evil glory..the god that requires death to see him...the almighty god that lets the infant get mangled under a car,burn alive in a fire,starve and freeze.Is it his fault?It sure is...were are held accountable,but he is responsible...the god that sees if he cant have you then no one can,not even yourself,and is fit for hell....that sick fuc*...fuc* him and his sick love..the equivilent of a mother beating there child "because she loves them"...
I cant change my end...but I can end his change of me.
Screw him.

Later...

ketsueki15
09-26-2003, 12:59 AM
we all have our opinions..u see god as sick bc he cant help some dieing person..hundreds and thousands of people die a day ..wat would happen if say god were to stop a bady from dieing or those other hundres and thousands of people.. i see him as loving...everything happens for a reason.. how is god aco****able for a perosn who doesnt have faith in god or doesnt beleive???

chucklivesoninmyheart
09-26-2003, 04:31 AM
That was a pissed off post huh?
The thing is,is that God CAN make a difference,but chooses not to.I didn't say he is held accountable...he is responisble.Theres two ways to look at his "way"...

1:He has complete control over EVERYTHING down to the smallest nuance...every motion you make or grain of sand that falls,he is responsible for it and is his "will".

2:He isn't activley controlling anything,but rather set things in motion long ago and the end result to everything that happens in between,which he knows,is in his "will".

Saying "well bad things just randomly happen sometimes" would mean god made a mistake in his design/intent/will/action...which means he sinned...not very god like...and is impossible according to what he says.There is no "chance" with god...according to him he came to save "everyone"...its not a slots game where you "might" be born with a 1 and x "chance" of recieving christ/have faith in god.He is responsible for everything...can you save your own soul?...I think not.To give you an idea of how I see his "will"...lets say I drove a car to the top a hill,threw it in neutral and let it go.On the way down it runs over a kittin,a small girl,a newborn and a pregnant mother...whether I knew that would happen or not is irrelevant...I'm responsible.There isnt a court in this world that wouldnt convict me of at LEAST manslaughter.It would be even worse if I knew that would happen or were "behind the wheel"!
I forget the exact verse number,but it goes somthing like "ALL things are in accordance with my will"(throw that into a search engine and you should find somthing).
Theres a contradictory verse which I'm sure most people have heard...it goes "its not my will that anyone should perish,but have everlasting life"...hmmmm...This is why I stopped reading the bible...it can't keep its story straight.

So if god is god then things cant be random...whether hes driving the car or just gave it a starting nudge.
Things good and bad sure do happen for a reason...him.

None of the above is "matter of fact"

Later! \m/

ketsueki15
09-26-2003, 01:24 PM
we all have our opinions about god.. bu besides that why did the moderatore put these *** things in the word ac0untable???

Dr_simon
09-26-2003, 02:12 PM
They didn't it is part of the vBB Net nanny package

ketsueki15
09-26-2003, 03:56 PM
oo ok alright iw as jsut wonderin

pstring
09-27-2003, 09:09 AM
I think what the discussion here about is, God's perfect will, vs. his permissive will, and maybe a bit of what has been overlooked is his creation of man as a free moral agent, he gave man free will to choose right or wrong, to serve God or not, the illustration about the car rolling down the hill and a court holding you responsible, why would they hold you responsible?, because you have free will, the car was just along for the ride, it had no free will. Our free will choices can affect others, my sin can have a very negative effect on others, but also my love can have a very positive effect. God's perfect will is that all are saved, his permissive will allows you accept or deny his salvation, but with caveat that sin will be judged. BTW, the word "evil" in Isa. 45:7 is translated from the word "ra" which in context would be better translated, calamity or adversity, I think an interesting verse to read would be Isa. 45:9, .......................

PonyOne
09-28-2003, 12:51 AM
If your knowledge of God is founded on flawed beliefs, then you end up coming off with either flawed disbelief, or disbelief in the flawed... I was raised with flawed knowledge. The new testament made little sense to me, in that God came across as a bipolar CEO as opposed to this loving and wonderful entity that gave us existence.

chuck, it sounds a lot like you grew up with the same interpretation of God that I did... it sounds to me that more than saying that you don't believe in God you're saying that you believe in him you just think he's an asshole.

I still have guilt issues resultant of a Catholic upbringing, i.e. the constant fear that everything I do is grossly inadequate; that I could make 500,000 a year and donate 490,000 of it, and i'd still be a dirty dirty sinner because i didn't give all 500,000 of it. That because I felt some of the basic human emotions that God gave us: lust, greed, hatred, and fury that I am inhuman and evil. The funny thing is that the religious doctrines that dictate these things are based off of a text (the Torah), but that they directly fly in the face of the text that gives them any supposed validity whatsoever.

Funny story... about 100 years ago, missionaries from Europe tried to convert as much of Uganda as possible, and in one area, the elders and council found it so difficult to reconcile God from the old testament from the God in the new testament that they became Jews... heheh kinda like me I suppose.

chucklivesoninmyheart
09-28-2003, 01:06 AM
Your right...I believe in god...I just dont like him
Turning your back on it entirley is tough after knowing only that...Almost like being brought up believing the world is flat.Logical/common sense and that little voice tied to this body would tell you the world is round after seeing evidence that this earth isnt flat,but somthing would still cling on and keep the alternate thought alive.

pstring
09-28-2003, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by PonyOne
The new testament made little sense to me, in that God came across as a bipolar CEO as opposed to this loving and wonderful entity that gave us existence.


How so Pony? Do you mean as opposed to what you were taught, or that you couldn't reconcile the N.T, with the O.T. because you saw God presented differently, I hope I am getting the gist of what you were saying right, I'm interested because I sometimes hear the reverse observation made, that God in the O.T seems all judgement, God in the N.T. seems to be all loving, thats not my observation but I do hear that said from time to time and don't think I've ever heard it the other way around................

chucklivesoninmyheart
09-29-2003, 12:12 PM
The God of the O.T is very kill happy.God took the lives of so many people...genocide really.The completion of the N.T(or to be more precise,the death and ressurection of jesus)marked the end of human,animal,material sacrafice to cleanse sin(whatever).Jesus hanging himself on a cross dosnt make up for a fraction of life taken by the God of the O.T...in my eyes.
Anyway,yeah,the N.T is full of sugary psalms,powerful proverbs,raging revelations,lots of love,but little killing/death.

Later!

Jolly McJollyson
09-29-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by u10ajf
Quote
"I believe that God understands what drives us to do the horrible things we do and that because of that there is no hell, because there are no sins that cannot be forgiven."

The Bible says that the one unforgiveable sin is "Blasphemy against the holy spirit", I don't know what that means but i think that it is probably nihilism, the ultra-cynical viewpoint that morality is just a concept and has no reality.
For a while when I was a teenager I believed I was predestined to go to hell and burn for eternity because I hated God for wishing damnation on my non-believing father and sister. After a while I began to believe in the catholic idea of purgatory; that we spend a while being made suitable for acceptance into heaven. I have wondered what would be left of me if I was cleansed of error. Perhaps the punishment for sin is to loose identity, like a lobotomy of the spirit.

But what is morality? People have had to fight for our liberty, to kill for us. Who is the better person, the conscientious objector with his goosefeather and bloodless hands or the soldier who took on the burden of his guilt by fighting for the rights of both.
To make a society of peace lovers what is needed is a war. All that it needs to make a war is a side that will back down for long enough that they will be oppressed and eventually have to fight back with vengeance. The cycle never seems to end.

If there is a God I want to be judged not on my beliefs but my actions. My actions are not too good and I am too lazy to defend the rights of those in the third world but the bible tells me if I don't believe in God then he won't believe in me.

Still, I can't play a harp..
Suicide and murder are pretty bad too. Also, without repentance and reconciliation, no sins are forgiven. Have you read James dude? There is a hell, and truly we live there. There is a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, and truly we support it. We are the devil, as unfortunate as it is. So try to be good. When you're not, and you won't be, make up for it...it's a pretty simple religion.

pstring
09-30-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Jolly McJollyson

So try to be good. When you're not, and you won't be, make up for it...it's a pretty simple religion. [/B]

?, That is not the message of James or the New Testament, if we could make up for it, then Jesus would not have had to come into the world, man would have been able to make himself acceptable to God by his own effort, but man is incapable of doing so, the book of Romans explains that Justication is by Faith not by works, James was only saying that if you have the faith, put it to work, let's see it in action, live the life, off the pew and grab a shovel, not that works can justify man before God, but you are right in that it is a pretty simple religion, Salvation by Grace thru Faith..............