Modulation

[Axl_Rose]

I that just changing the chords your usnig for a different part of a song while remaing in the same key?
If not- wot is it!!

[noticingthemistake]

Modulation is the process of going from one key, like A major, to a different key, E major. The most common modulation is going from a key to it's relative key, like C major to A minor. The notes are the the same so it's very easy to change. The other used is modulating using a relative chord that exists within the key you started with and the key your wanting to go to. Take the A major to E major example. Since the rule is when you write something in a key you end it on the root. Apply that rule with the part your playing in A major, so your chord progression ends on an A major chord. Well there is an A major chord in E major, so you can easily use that chord as a pivot from A major to E major. This technique is commonly called parallel *sumthing*, but it is a process of modulation. With more study in this field you will see that it is possible to move from any key to another.

[Incidents Happen]

I'm sorry i didn't read the above post, but how i'm going to explain it is.....find the relative chord!

For example, "Bell Bottom Blues" by eric clapton

verse is Key of C

last line in the verse ends with F G

two verses, then into the Chorus, which is modulated to key of A. How do you get to A?

Look at the last chords played, its a C Major Walk up, into a Major 6th chord, A.

IV V VIMaj
F G A

For the chorus, the A becomes the I chord, etc.

Get Hal Leonard's "Harmony and Theory", its excellent.

[RobSm]

Here's another method to play with. If you think of any note say 'G' then it appears in 7 major scales as a different degree or position in each. For example G is the first note of Gmaj, the second note of Fmaj, ther third note of Eflatmaj, the 4th note of dmaj the 5th note of cmaj,the sixth note of bFlat maj, and the seventh note of Aflat maj.

The same principle applies to every other note.

So play along in Gmaj and when you come to the end of a phrase where the melody note is G (say) instead of using a chord from the G set of chords (eg G C Em) use a chord from one those other keys in which G is a scale note (or tension note) like Eflat, (key could be Bflat, Aflat or Eflat) and go off in that other key for a while, then do the same trick to return to G.

This can be done on any note not just the key note.

You could use other chords of course, particularly the minors eg end above on Cmin then you're in any key that has Cmin as a II III or VI.

Bell Bottom Blues works it in the opposite direction by seemingly going to F to G to Am (which is a common progression) but makes the Am and Amaj instead opening up the 'new' key of Amaj.

This is used very often. As always....we just have to practice.

[noticingthemistake]

The process of modulation is done by using a pivot chord, a chord that exists in both the original key and the key your going to. As for G existing in 7 different keys, this is true but as a chord, say G maj it's only in 3 keys. You'll have to take in count the chord structure. Now when you add an extension like a 7th, G maj7 occurs only twice, and G dominant 7 (G7) only occurs once. Seems hopeless cause there are two things that will help alot. One is a chord progression common in all music, it's the two-five (ii-V7) which occurs naturally in the major key. Then there's the other two-five which are both dominant (II7-V7). This is what makes most modulations possible, including the cycle 5 chord progressions. Here's the dominant one (III7 - VI7 - II7 - V7), each time you play a dominant technically your in a different key. The other way is with line cliches, which is having a chord progression like Gmaj7 to G7. A oline cliches is when the root chord (Gmaj) stays the same but the extension moves (maj7 to dominant 7). As you can see this will make a connect where most modulations can't occur naturally. I'll take the explain from clapton and change it alittle to show what I mean.

Fmaj7 - G7 - Gmaj7 - A7

Starts off in the key a C major with Fmaj7 and G7, now using a line cliches of G7 to Gmaj7. Now I play a A dominant 7 and I am in the key of D major. Gmaj7 was the pivot chord.

There are many techniques to make modulation possible. Those 2 will pretty much answer most. Some just have to change without a pivot chord.

[Incidents Happen]

pivot chord = relative chord

Same thing, different term.

[John O'Carroll]

Many songs for many years simply modulate the entire tune up a half step, or occasionally a full step. This was popular in the 50's and 60's. e.g. G Em C D was modulated to Ab Fm Db Eb. It usually was done on a 3rd verse and continued through the end of the song.

[chris mood]

Sounds dated and cheesey.

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah. It's less common now days for modulation to move up a half-step. It sounds better going down a half-step rather than up. Half-steps are minor in quality and descending is more minor than ascending. Try this one. Fmaj7 - Fm7 - B7 - Fm7 - Emaj7.

Most modulation occurs in 5th's. Also 4th's and 3rd's are very common. The sixth is a good option, 2nd's and 7th's are the least common.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 06-26-2003 at 12:08 PM]

[chris mood]

I've always been a sucker for a major to minor pivot either off the 4 or 1 chord.Ex:
C-7 F9|Bbmaj7 |Bb-7 Eb9|Abmaj7||

[griphon2]

Intervals, keys, chords move in various ways. These are the traditional movement(s), by: 4ths or 5ths, maj or min 3rds, whole or half step up or down (tritone), or chromatically, repectively. This can be accomplished through abrupt or through dominant 7th (or it's variation, mostly by 4th or 5th, or voice leading control, regardless of established harmony).
Most always some portion(s) of the cycle of 4ths and 5ths occur. From Renaissance, Classical, Swing, Bebop, Rock, etc, this formula or idea exists. There are only two chords, in our present system, I and V7. most all tunes, songs, compositions, whatever term, can be boiled down to this constant.

[chris mood]

I would have to disagree with your Dominant -Tonic theory, I believe the 4 chord (sub-dominant) should be considered as its own entity....I see it as a weak argument to consider the 4 chord an extension or sub of the tonic chord.

[griphon2]

Interesting. The IV or sub-dominant, is probably the most difficult chord to improv on hearing. There are three ways to look at this. I ignore this one, look at it as a functional sub-dominant within a key. To me, within the terms of sound it's useless, sort of. More than likely or mostly, IV chords fall into the ii V realm or the I realm, regardless of musical genre.
The 2nd and 3rd view. I look at the sub-dominant, slightly askew. It all depends on it's actual function. To me, it's rarely, sub-dominant. What a word. It's either I or a function of V7. (a function of V7, what's worse?) Spelling, I get around the ambiguity, through, bass? Defines a lot of stuff. I can do what I want. To be equally ambiguous as the harmony lends or tends me. Ever so shortly.

[griphon2]

I to IV are so if'fy. Cmaj7 to Fmaj7 progression. (America type tunes) Don't know what to do until the next chord. C and F, the same problem. IV chords are the suspensions of the major key setup. Play an F with G in the bass (F/G), we have the ultimate suspension. Aurally, we make an assumption. This can go anywhere. IV chords are ambiguous. Why the early hatred of tritones?

[noticingthemistake]

The word “sub”(dominant) means below. In the key of C major, the fifth degree above the tonic is G, or G dominant. A fifth below C is F, or F sub-dominant. Chris is right, each one of these chords is completely different especially functionally. Take the circle of fifths, where I think the functionality is more acceptable. A dominant chords makes the progression sound ascending in the circle of fifths, and the subdominant sound descending. With or without theory terms, just aurally. If you were to modulate, the G dominant helps move up in circle of fifths, while F subdominants helps moves down in the circle of fifths. With a little help of other chords that would have to exist within either progression, although the F subdominant is a direct modulation to the key of F major. Not to be taking strictly, because there are many ways to work around it and manipulate. But this is a basic understanding of the dominant and subdominant function and meaning.

I-IV are iffy, try vi - IV. I-IV is a suspension because it wants to move back to I or even up to V. vi-IV is the foremost progression to get to a key a fifth below where you are now. Like the F subdominant directly to F major.

The Tritone is so hated because 1 its so hard to sing and 2 it is discord compared to all the other intervals. Funny thing is through all that time it was still used, but disguised. The common porogression F, A, B, C (typical Gregorian chant) or chord progression below.


e:----------3---
b:--5---7---5---
g:--4---7---5---
d:--6---7-------
a:--7---5---3---
e:--------------


This is an extremely common progression (in that period)that is clearly tritonic but is disguised. In moving from the first to the second sonority, the M3-5 progression of the lowest voices involves the tritonic relation of g#-d; in moving from the second to the third sonority, the M10-12 progression of the outer voices involves a similar relation of f#'-c. .

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-05-2003 at 11:43 AM]

[chris mood]

In popular music is very common to outline the 4 chord during a "bridge" section. Technically you are not modulating because you are still within the diatonic key, and at this point the 4 chord is clearly not functioning as an extension of the 1 or 5. To dismiss it seems frivolous, you would be denying everything the Blues stands for.

As for a 1 to 4 progression I can name at least 2 dozen songs off the top of my head that utilize this function (Feeling Allright, Can't Always Get What You Want, etc..). I think the 4 chord definitely has its own unique aural character, In fact I think its one of the easiest and most distinguishable chords to hear within the diatonic system. Why you would want to invent some theory that disguises the relevance of the sub-dominate is beyond my comprehension.

*this sounds like a very interesting debate, unfortunately I have to run a music camp for the next 2 wks and will probably not be able to contribute....have fun guys.

[griphon2]

Actually, you are both right. I actually look at IV chord, when I hear them or read them, as an exact function. If they are colored in some way, I just handle them different or sub them out.

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by chris mood
[B]In popular music is very common to outline the 4 chord during a "bridge" section. Technically you are not modulating because you are still within the diatonic key,

Whether it modulates is depending on the song, so it could be either yes or no. On written music this modulation is not noted because key signature of a song is indicated by the last chord not each modulation that occurs. Music would be a mess, because some music can move through many and I mean many key signatures. Modulation causes contrast in music which is a must in a good masterful composition. Music, like a painting is not one color but many colors.

and at this point the 4 chord is clearly not functioning as an extension of the 1 or 5. To dismiss it seems frivolous, you would be denying everything the Blues stands for.

No chord within a chordal structure of a key is an extension of another chord. Not even the I chord and the others which revolve around that chord. Griphon does hold water when saying the IV chord can be functional as a suspension. Especially in a C.P. such as I - IV - V7 and the minor version i - iv6 - i(6th extension on iv chord is optional). Although limiting to that function is a musical opinion probably based on musical experience, because the IV can play as many roles as any other chord. Just like many other chords can serve as a suspension, bVII, iio, bII, viio, V7, and Io. Some work for some musical styles while others don’t.

As for a 1 to 4 progression I can name at least 2 dozen songs off the top of my head that utilize this function (Feeling Allright, Can't Always Get What You Want, etc..). I think the 4 chord definitely has its own unique aural character, In fact I think its one of the easiest and most distinguishable chords to hear within the diatonic system. Why you would want to invent some theory that disguises the relevance of the sub-dominate is beyond my comprehension.

The I-IV progression could stand alone as just a I chord continued, but the IV chord keeps the progression moving. The next chord after the IV chord could actually be anything and will relatively have the same effect if it was moving from the I chord. I think you would understand this griphon, because this is your primary use of the IV chord. Try this chord progression so you can hear the contrast in modulation that occurs from using the IV chord.


CM:I V ii IV
FM: I vi ii V I
e:-0----1----0----0----0----1----0----0--|
b:-0----0----1---------1-----------------|
g:------0---------2---------3----3----2--|
d:-----------0----3----0-----------------|
a:-3-----------------------------3-------|
e:--------------------------3---------1--|


This progression goes from C major to F major.

have fun chris.

[chris mood]

No chord within a chordal structure is an extension of another........sure it is when you start dealing with higher sinorities. Take Cmaj9, within this chord you have a C triad, an E minor triad, and a G triad. As Griphon noted before (I think) a 4,5,1 prog can be thought of as a ii-7 (minus the root)5, 1. Piano players think like this all the time, a G triad in the left hand with a F triad in the right hand would produce a G11 chord.

[noticingthemistake]

:D Ahh. Chris man, you know that's not what I meant and you know what I mean.. LOL ;) I wasn't talking about chords with extensions. I'm talking about the chordal structure of a key signature, the foundation that makes up the sub-dominant, mediants and stuff like that. And no chord in that foundation is an extension of another chord. Start adding extenions and yes what your saying is true.

ALthough I understand it, I am not all that favorable with the whole chord within a chord idea. A Cmaj9 sounds like a Cmaj9 chord, regardless of the chord(s) inside. Chord Substitution is the same way, the chord still sounds like the chord it is rather than the chord it is substituting. A C13 chord can carry inside it, any chord that exists within a C major scale. But it doesn't sound like any chord other than the C13 chord. A study for the intelligent theorist but not for the aural musician. Maybe a shortcut for the pianist though.

Man theory is a bust, for every point made there is an equal counterpoint.

[chris mood]

Well, I can't say I necessarily agree w/ya, I found analyzing triads within chords has opened up a lot of new possiblities on how to approach these chords (improvise), sub-out, and arrange, especially when you get into jazz/be-bop theory and start utulizing neighbor/approach tones to outline chord tones and extensions.
As far as hearing these chords the way they are, well when you start getting into inversions it's a whole new can of worms.....G-7 in 1st inversion sounds an awful like Bb6.

A question for you about a couple posts back....I understand how the 4 chord can be used as a suspension, but what about all the other chords you listed?

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by chris mood
Well, I can't say I necessarily agree w/ya, I found analyzing triads within chords has opened up a lot of new possiblities on how to approach these chords (improvise), sub-out, and arrange, especially when you get into jazz/be-bop theory and start utulizing neighbor/approach tones to outline chord tones and extensions.

Honestly I wouldn't want you to if that's not your way. I don't know about you and how you go about music, but everything to me is sound. I approach music by what I hear rather than what theory can make sense of it. Music is much more simple than the intelligent theorist may say, sometimes you just have to step back and take a look to understand it. Some just get too close to see.

I can't disagree with you that analyzing deeper to understanding more and more about chordal structure is not a benefit. It is, especially for someone who approaches music intelligently. It works wonders, but music isn't intellectual it's a simple human perception that almost everyone has. The very heart of where a musician creates comes from is the inner ear, “the tune he/she hears in his head and then puts down onto an instrument”. That’s all that is needed. One doesn’t need to be music theory major to create good music, but he would need music theory to understand it. The answer to writting great music isn’t in theory, if you look for it there your already led astray.

As far as hearing these chords the way they are, well when you start getting into inversions it's a whole new can of worms.....G-7 in 1st inversion sounds an awful like Bb6.

Not really. inversions only tell you where the bass note is. That’s it. And yeah G-7 does sound sort of like Bb6. There’s 2 things that seperate those two chord aurally and written. I’ll explain it both intellectually and aurally. A simple rule in music is the root of a chord is doubled to make it the outline chord. The outline chord is the note that you hear dominantly in the chord. So in Gm7 (G would be doubled) you would hear G over every other note, in Bb6 (Bb would be doubled) the Bb would be the dominant note. Inversion or not, remember that only tells you what the bass note is. The lowest note of a chord is not always doubled, that’s how you can aurally tell if it is an inversion. These 2 chords actually sound completely different. So when you hear a Gm7/Bb you still hear G over the Bb. Try it play a Gm7/Bb, then play a G. Sounds right, now play Bb. I think even you can say it sound different, although it does take some deep perception of hearing.

A question for you about a couple posts back....I understand how the 4 chord can be used as a suspension, but what about all the other chords you listed?

Ok. The first one I’ll explain is the V7, or in progression I-V7-I. this the primarily sequence that all suspension are built on. It creates movement where the I chord would be stagnant, and if you look at the notes that stack up to be what suspensions are. Also works in minor as i-V7-i.


e:------------------------------
b:--------------m---------------
g:--4---5---4---i---5---7---5---
d:--5---4---5---n---2---6---2---
a:--5---5---5---o-------7-------
e:--3-------3---r---5-------5---


The next 2 your probably going to kick yourself for not recognizing it. Since your explaining chords within a chord. Look at this progression i-iio-i-viio. The iio and viio are actually V7 chords in disguise.


e:------------------
b:------------------
g:--5---7---5---5---
d:--2---6---2---4---
a:------------------
e:--5---7---5---5---


The bVII wants to have the same resolution as the V7 chord.


e:--------------
b:--------------
g:--4---2---4---
d:--5---3---5---
a:--5---3---5---
e:--3---1---3---


The Io is just a typical suspension. I-Io-I acts as a slight movement from the I chord and back.


e:---------------
b:---------------
g:---5---4---5---
d:---1---3---1---
a:---------------
e:---4---4---4---


The same with the bII as it wants to resolve back to the I chord.


e:---------------
b:---------------
g:---4---3---4---
d:---5---4---5---
a:---5---4---5---
e:---3---2---3---


hope you understand.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-06-2003 at 11:10 AM]

[chris mood]

Suspensions...thanx, I see, b2 to 1 (isn't that like a Phrygian cadance or something?), b7 to 1:used in Gospel a lot, very hip sounding, minor suspensions (created from diminished chords that exist inside the Dom7b9 chord).

1)The "art vrs. theory' seems to be like a wild card on this forum that people always throw into discussions to validate their opinions.....yeah we all know you don't have to be a brain scientist to write a song, paint a picture, write a novel, etc...but sometimes you have to learn things intellectually 1st before you can hear them. I believe a 4yr old child can hear and sing a major scale, penta, etc......but I believe most kids or adults would have a hard time singing a diminished, whole tone, altered dominate, etc, without ist some kind of intellectual training.

2)Inversions...who is to say that the root is going to be doubled? It is not uncommon to double the bass note. Most guitar voicings for inverted 7th & 9th chords do not have the root doubled.

3) A Cmaj13th chord sounds like a A-11/c , it's much to dark sounding for a major chord. Major chord extensions should not go above a 9th, becuase the chord takes on the sound of the relative minor, just like minor chord extensions should not go above an 11th, because it starts to take on the brightness of the relative major.

4) Having an understanding of triads within chords is a crucial for understanding the musical genius of such improvisational giants as Coltrane and Parker....for years I studied the Omini book and wondered how/why Parker broke every theoretical rule ever written and made it sound correct (maj 3rds over minor triads,-7ths over Maj7th chords,etc). I could have just aurally copied what he did, but having the knowledge and understanding of how to achieve this sound makes you a more convincing player. Guitarists Larry Carlton and Scott Henderson are big into triadic improvisation, guitarists who think this way have a tendency to be much more colorful in there improvisations.

[griphon2]

Thanks Chris, made sense to me. I even sub out the triads triad. Makes things even more funner. I break rules all the time, but there is a logic to the breaking.

An inverted Gm7 is a i ii iii or vi. A Bb6 is a I or IV.
Bbmaj7 to Bb6 is very common for 4 bars of Bb. Many more subs are often used to relieve even that boredom.

A C7 plus (13, #b,9, 5, etc) are dominant or leading tones type chords. (as we've discovered, it's still dominant to me) Pure and simple.

As for IV chords. I prefer to look at them as sub-tonics, rather than subdominant. It's just a preference. Once you add or imply a tritone, it's dominant.

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by chris mood
[B]Suspensions...thanx, I see, b2 to 1 (isn't that like a Phrygian cadance or something?), b7 to 1:used in Gospel a lot, very hip sounding, minor suspensions (created from diminished chords that exist inside the Dom7b9 chord).

The best way to actual look at those suspension chord is not to obsessively think of the roman numerals but the movement and sound. I know that wasn’t what we were discussing, but it came to me when you pointed out the bII being phrygian, that’s right but it’s also a harmonic minor progression V-VI. As you can see the same suspension occurs in both phrygian and harmonic minor. A good thing about the bII suspension is that you can experiment with different 7th’s and it still sounds pretty good.

1)The "art vrs. theory' seems to be like a wild card on this forum that people always throw into discussions to validate their opinions.....yeah we all know you don't have to be a brain scientist to write a song, paint a picture, write a novel, etc...but sometimes you have to learn things intellectually 1st before you can hear them. I believe a 4yr old child can hear and sing a major scale, penta, etc......but I believe most kids or adults would have a hard time singing a diminished, whole tone, altered dominate, etc, without ist some kind of intellectual training.

I’m not trying to validate any opinion. I’m not trying to say screw theory all you will ever need it your ear. But it should be the foremost tool you use. Theory only makes sense of something, so I have to disagree when you say you can’t hear something until you understand it. I’m lost to why you would even say that and if you believe it. A evenly logical counterpoint to what your saying is can someone sing a scale and just not know what scale it is? A whole tone scales isn’t hard to sing, it’s the same intervallic pattern all the way up. Heck most Gregorian chants were in this manner. It wasn’t until they understood what they did until they it was a whole tone scale. Of course if you went up to someone and said sing the whole tone scale, and if they didn’t have any theory knowledge they would look at you strange. But they are still capable of singing it just not understanding it. An example of this would be someone singing along with a tune on the radio, and say that person has no musical knowledge they can still sing it even if it is in a odd scale. I'm just saying theory is there for us to make sense of music, and yes to introduce us to new ideas. But I don’t recommend it being the creative tool, look into the sound of music first.

2)Inversions...who is to say that the root is going to be doubled? It is not uncommon to double the bass note. Most guitar voicings for inverted 7th & 9th chords do not have the root doubled.

Well if the root isn’t doubled in the chord you think it is then maybe that isn’t the chord you think it is. If you play a Gm7 and the Bb is doubled, the chord is a Bb6/G. Another note doubled and it’s another chord name. This works out fine because for every note in a chord there is a chord name. The note that is doubled is usually the dominant note in that chord, and the fact that the note is doubled makes it the dominant note in the chord. So the chord is written to reflect that. Then whether it’s major or minor, and if it has an extension. The only option is if no note in a chord is doubled, then the chord is ambiguous and you can call it whatever you want. This is hardly the case.

3) A Cmaj13th chord sounds like a A-11/c , it's much to dark sounding for a major chord. Major chord extensions should not go above a 9th, becuase the chord takes on the sound of the relative minor, just like minor chord extensions should not go above an 11th, because it starts to take on the brightness of the relative major.

I agree with the C13 sounding more minor than it does major. But following what I said above ensures that it is still a chord name.

4) Having an understanding of triads within chords is a crucial for understanding the musical genius of such improvisational giants as Coltrane and Parker.... For years I studied the Omini book and wondered how/why Parker broke every theoretical rule ever written and made it sound correct (maj 3rds over minor triads,-7ths over Maj7th chords,etc). I could have just aurally copied what he did, but having the knowledge and understanding of how to achieve this sound makes you a more convincing player. Guitarists Larry Carlton and Scott Henderson are big into triadic improvisation, guitarists who think this way have a tendency to be much more colorful in there improvisations.

Kool. The key word in that whole paragraph is understanding. You theory knowledge allowed you to understand the music. The key to being a improve genius is the understanding of what a scale will do harmonically to a chord. That and having an excellent ear, because sound is still the key to improvising. When I improvise over a C13 chord, I know how each chromatic tone will sound and effect that chord. And I think of that chord as being a C13 chord, because that’s what it sounds like. I never try to take the scenic route of understanding what chords may exist within it. It’s sounds like a C13 chord, bottom line. True that the more you understand the higher tendency you will have to be a better musician. But the level you will be able to reach as a musician is all based on how good you hear, a good ear will take you farther than any theory in the world.

All player needs to be a convincing player is convincing continuality. If a players changes don’t sound natural, then he is not a convincing players. As a composer this is the foremost ability he/she must have. This can be accomplished with theory knowledge and/or with a good ear.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-06-2003 at 07:21 PM]

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
As for IV chords. I prefer to look at them as sub-tonics, rather than subdominant. It's just a preference. Once you add or imply a tritone, it's dominant.


Ok. The dominant in a chordal structure of a key structure has a different meaning than the dominant chord itself. In the chordal structure, dominant just means 5th degree above the tonic. Well you know what a dominant chord is, ex. dom7 dom9.

This is clear because the 5th degree above the minor (key)tonic is still reffered to as dominant. And the 4th below is subdominant. Even though those chords are not dominant chords. Confusing yes but true.

[chris mood]

Having a good ear is not the bottom line to being a good musician....I have met more then a handfull of players who've had perfect pitch and couldn't improvise their way out of a paper bag....having a creative personality is a big part of being a decent musician.

[noticingthemistake]

I agree, and I don't think I said a good ear was the "bottom line" to being a good musician. If I did I messed up but what I meant to say was the better your ear the farther you can go in music. The better you understand (sound) what you want to play the easier it is to play. Thinking up a sound and knowing it is a G before you touch the guitar is already a mile ahead of most. Now when it comes to improvising, relative pitch plays a bigger part. You can find out what note (chord) is in the rhythm just by looking at the rhythm guitarist or if you have written music in front of you. You can easily find a good scale to put over that chord, and relative pitch tells you what each note will do harmonically to a note. Every musician has relative pitch, it just depends on what level you are on. Everyone can tell the difference better playing a M3 over a chord and playing a P5. Knowing that beforehand is the key. And yeah I've met people with perfect pitch who couldn't improvise cause all they could tell me was the name of a note when I played it. They weren’t all that good with improvising because they didn’t have good relative pitch. Music moves in relations of one note to the next, so this is the tool we use to improvise. Although having perfect pitch with multiply that skill, but you wouldn't need it to be a successful musician. And I agree having a creative personality is the bottom line to being a musician but then again I haven't meet a musician that isn't creative in some way. That's what being a musician is all about, creating. *not talking about the 15 yr old who just wants to imitate a pop star, guys like you and me.

[griphon2]

Not confusing at all. I just prefer not to look at it that way. Too restricting.

[noticingthemistake]

Griphon-
Kool. I can see where you see the IV chord as a subtonic in terms of chords. But you may what to watch because a tri-tone can exist in a IV chord as well (#4). The subdominant name given to that chord is just music terms in the least.

Chris-

About the bVII chord in a progression. I'm not into analyzing or even listening to much gospel music. But a common chord progression coming and going from the bVII chord is: bVI - bVII - I. This one is a good build up to the I chord. Think of this one in terms of it's roman numerals because it doesn't have the same effect if the last chord isn't a major tonic chord. The bVII as a suspension usually has to come from and return to the I chord. You probably ran into the bVI - bVII - I quite alot, it's a awesome progression from the norm.

[griphon2]

"But you may what to watch because a tri-tone can exist in a IV chord as well (#4). The subdominant name given to that chord is just music terms in the least."

Sorry, I don't agree with that. Once a tri-tone is introduced, the chord becomes dominant. Albeit secondary, but a dominant, nonetheless, with it's own resolution properties. Example: C7 F7 G7. Even though it is written in C, the only actual chord in C is G7. C7 F7 G7 is nowadays, considered a I IV V progression, just for simplicity. It is not technically. There are no semantic rules or arguments or music terms to deny that fact. The reason the IV chord is called the subdominant is simply because it's below the dominant. Adding a tritone to any chord, for that matter, changes the function.

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
As for IV chords. I prefer to look at them as sub-tonics, rather than subdominant. It's just a preference. Once you add or imply a tritone, it's dominant.


I'm just stating from what you wrote man. Since I think we're talking about chord names, like V is dominant and IV is subdominant. A tri-tone does exist within the IV chord, it's the #4. A tri-tone is just the name of the interval that is 3 steps, whether it's #4 or b5. It's still a tri-tone. That's all I'm trying to say. Oh the fact that the tri-tone is always dominant, I can't agree but if it's your way to look at it. Cool. I wouldn't neglect the fact that the tri-tone exists in diminished chords though. Especially if your looking in terms of function. The tri-tone would also exist in any b9 chord, m6, and many others.

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
The reason the IV chord is called the subdominant is simply because it's below the dominant.

Below the tonic not the dominant. These terms directly point to there relationship with the tonic. it's called a subdominat because it is 5 degrees below the tonic, like the dominant is 5 degrees above the tonic. Just like the mediant is the 3rd degree above the tonic the submediant (6th degree above the tonic) is the 3rd degree below the tonic. "super-" is given to the chord degree above the tonic. Most of the time it is understood, instead of superdominant, it's just dominant. But the 2nd degree is called the super-tonic. In the minor key the 7th degree above the tonic is called the subtonic, because it is the 2nd degree below the tonic.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-13-2003 at 11:41 PM]

[griphon2]

Your explanation of tonic, supertonic, mediant, I'll accept. As far as I'm concerned, 40 years writing, it's useless information. Nice questions on a test.

As for tritones, I don't think you're gettin' it. The tritone is the Maj 3rd and the b7th of a dominant chord.
The interval is a tritone. Or a #4 or b5 or the devil's interval. A fully diminished chord is a double tritone. e.g., D7 and Ab7, both chords' tritone are exactly the same.(diminished can be used and thought of as dominant or leading tone, therefore, a function of the dominant, or pentultimate to I or i or other variations)
Dominant chords can be and often are subs through the tritone. (a glorious excercise, play dominant type scales or modes using the cycle of 4ths and 5ths. An average guitar players nightmare. A great excercise!) The irony is that there aren't a lot of tritones.
A major trick for every guitar player. Tritones have a distinctive look on the guitar. The idea is to make this stuff simple. The dominant and it's asundry variations make music, for the most part, palatable to the ear, regardless of experience.

[griphon2]

As a general rule, roughly 90 percent of all music is this.
I, i, IV, iv = mostly I
iii, iv = mostly I
ii, V, V7 and all it's possible variations, and vii half or full dim = V

That's it in a nutshell, and somewhat oversimplified. Works incredibly well in most situations, beginning or advanced or professional.

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
[B]Your explanation of tonic, supertonic, mediant, I'll accept. As far as I'm concerned, 40 years writing, it's useless information. Nice questions on a test.

Yeah. But it can have it's uses when it comes to understanding what the chord names mean. Especially the "leading tone" which has a little theory behind it that still is very beneficial to understand.

As for tritones, I don't think you're gettin' it. The tritone is the Maj 3rd and the b7th of a dominant chord.
The interval is a tritone. Or a #4 or b5 or the devil's interval. A fully diminished chord is a double tritone. e.g., D7 and Ab7, both chords' tritone are exactly the same.(diminished can be used and thought of as dominant or leading tone, therefore, a function of the dominant, or pentultimate to I or i or other variations)

I get it, and I don't necessarily disagree but I don't think of a tri-tone as always being a dominant chord. We have two different views on the matter. When we were talking about chordal names in a key signature, I'm saying that the tri-tone exists within the IV chord from it's root to the 4th. I know your talking about the dominant 7 chord now. The part that I see different is the fact that every time you have a tri-tone the chord can or worse has to be looked at as a dominant. A tri-tone can exist in a minor 6th chord from the 3rd to the 6th, and is often the tonic chord in the melodic minor key. A completely separate function from what your saying, and it’s an apposite cadence when coming from a V7.

Although a diminished chord can be looked at as a dominant (if you wish), they have 2 different functions. A dominant chord resolving back to I has the effect of being a perfect cadence. On the other hand a diminished doesn’t and it is imperfect. A Dominant chord can resolve to the vi chord (V7-vi), a cool little trick cause your expecting it to resolve to I instead you get a different movement, but just as fulfilling. Referred to as a deceptive cadence. However a diminished chord hardly ever resolves to a vi, or simply up a whole step.

[griphon2]

Sorry just have to disagree. A tritone is a dominant or leading tone function. It may occupy a Ib7 position or any position, but it's still a dominant function. As for m6, it's a dominant 9th with the 5th in the bass. (a very common trick) You can't play a pure Ionian or Lydian scale over a dominant chord without a major clash. (unless you have deep experience in bebop and modern country.)

[noticingthemistake]

Explain to me what a dominant function is? I don't get how every time a tri-tone exists within a chord it will be a dominant. This will clearly dismiss a nice range of chords. A leading tone only wants to do one thing (naturally) and that's move up a half-step but it doesn't have to. Example: viio - III7(V7) - vi(i). A deceptive move from major to harmonic minor a step and half lower. I get what your saying but don’t you think by shortening the range of chords into either I or V your limiting your possibilities?? Actually any chord is a shape of it’s tonic chord (I or i). So what help is it to think of every chord as a tonic if your a theorist?

I know why you don't agree (or see what I'm trying to show) cause you always make everything into another chord. Like your going to do with the chord progression I wrote above, change the III7 to a IM9(3rd in bass), which would no longer make that change a harmonic minor cadence. I see chord substitution as a way to create alternatives for chords, not a way to fit every chord into a smaller range of chords. A minor 6 chord is not a dominant 9 chord. I don't know how you are able to grasp the full use of music. In the world of sound, a minor 6 chord doesn't sound like a dominant 9th chord regardless of inversion. So they should not be thought of that way. 2 is better than 1, meaning if you distinguished them you would have 2 chords and more to create with.

You can't play a pure Ionian or Lydian scale over a dominant chord without a major clash. (unless you have deep experience in bebop and modern country.)

I disagree the 7th works as a good passing tone between b7-1. Looks like this b7-7-1. As a bass player I use that all the time. Also, a #4-5 will give you a nice blues trick, which is a popular blues chord. I'm not a fan of the natural 4th over any chord unless it's a suspension. Actually the only tones you want to be careful with over a dominant chord is the 4th, (b)9 (unless it’s a dominant (b)9th), and the #5 and 6.

[griphon2]

Explain to me what a dominant function is?
I'll try. Dominant chords or 7th chords only appear in all natural major scales only once. As a V7. It is the only position where the tritone appears naturally and sounds natural. I say again, Dominant 7th chords only appear once in every key. That makes them unique. (Lets make half and full diminished another email or discussion. Though the same idea prevails with some strangeness.) Dominant chords are given this name, because normally or in a traditional sense, they'll naturally resolve down a 5th to I or to a period of rest. Also called a pentultimate. Makes the progression move. At the moment, I haven't altered anything. A human penchant (to alter or change). Without the dominant chord, music is naturally stagnant (a largely supported POV, or we'd still be listening to Gregorian Chants). Thus, the dominant function. Thus, the tritone. Hope this helps. Answer the next question in an another post.

[griphon2]

"This will clearly dismiss a nice range of chords. A leading tone only wants to do one thing (naturally) and that's move up a half-step but it doesn't have to. Example: viio - III7(V7) - vi(i). A deceptive move from major to harmonic minor a step and half lower. I get what your saying but don’t you think by shortening the range of chords into either I or V your limiting your possibilities?? Actually any chord is a shape of it’s tonic chord (I or i). So what help is it to think of every chord as a tonic if your a theorist?"

Don't get this at all.
Dims can move by half step and don't have to. Exactly. Understanding, the a dim is a rewritten dominant makes this possible. This does NOT shorten the range or chords, but makes them vastly larger. The real problem is misanalyizing or mislabeling, especially in terms of function. A tritone, in a traditional sense and even transferred to all forms of modern music, is a Dominant Function. May not be at the V7 position, but most always a 5th relative. V7 of something...
This kind of analysis on the street, is almost nonexistant.
Just alter the major scale structure. Most all good session people know this information.

"So what help is it to think of every chord as a tonic if your a theorist?"
I have no idea what this means. I've never said this.
What I did say, that certain chords, most of the time, have a tendency to be a function of I, or V. Again doesn't lessen or shorten anything. Actually enhances. The more the merrier. There has been some discussion of stacking chords on this site. (no talk of stacking scales, modes, quartal harmony, etc.) This idea is very modern an should be understood. It's real simple if you know and understand certain principles.

[griphon2]

"change the III7 to a IM9(3rd in bass), "
Don't get this. III7 and IM9 are two different chords. Likewise, the real problem.
In writing any notation III7 is dominant. A seventh chord.
IM9 is a major 7 with a natural 9. A very common mistake in street writing. When paying big bucks to top notch session players, this mistake is not a good idea. You'll lose, regardless of your logic, and especially, your money.

[noticingthemistake]

Oops! Haha. Yeah for some odd reason I thought the III7 was a minor seventh chord when I wrote that. Good catch.

[griphon2]

"I disagree the 7th works as a good passing tone between b7-1. Looks like this b7-7-1. As a bass player I use that all the time. Also, a #4-5 will give you a nice blues trick, which is a popular blues chord. I'm not a fan of the natural 4th over any chord unless it's a suspension. Actually the only tones you want to be careful with over a dominant chord is the 4th, (b)9 (unless it’s a dominant (b)9th), and the #5 and 6.

Again, your terms are confused. The 7th = b7. 7 or ma7 = leading tone. #4 or -5 (b5) is more or less, what I said in a previous post. Making the ma7 in a dominant 7th setting takes quite a bit of experience.

"I'm not a fan of the natural 4th over any chord unless it's a suspension. "

I'm not sure what you meant, as a bass player. Terms are everything. A 5th under a IV (9th of IV) makes it a suspension, which is dominant, to me. I most ineveitably, will resolve to my I type or V type function, or even relative to those. Dominants, if understood, can go anywhere.

"Actually the only tones you want to be careful with over a dominant chord is the 4th, (b)9 (unless it’s a dominant (b)9th), and the #5 and 6."

I don't get this at all. Dominant chords are the last chords you need to worry about altering. They are the most conducive to altering. (the tritone exists) They are pentultimate chords. They move the music to somewhere!


[Edited by griphon2 on 07-16-2003 at 03:51 PM]

[griphon2]

A reasonable discussion of half and whole diminished as dominants exists on my theory for guitar page. It's a shortcut trick with massive amounts of information. Free, believe it or not.
http://members.tripod.com/~griphon2/index-6.html

Another page is dominant triads for guitar. Great for country players. All shapes in all inversions.
http://members.tripod.com/~griphon2/index-20.html

[noticingthemistake]

Explaining the dominant function.

Ok I was figuring that's what you meant. I can’t disagree for the most part. When you refer to penultimate you mean in a perfect cadence (V-I). Later you say that without the dominant chord music would be stagnant. A V-I cadence is meant to be played at the end of a phrase, placing it in the middle often cause a halt in music flow. The Progression V-vi is what will keep things moving, or change to relative minor as a deceptive cadence. So this is it’s function in the major scale, what about the harmonic minor where I can have a minor 6th chord (I6). Would you say that this chord must move down a 5th?

Limiting possibilities.

This is where I disagree. A diminished chord is not a rewritten dominant. Re-writing is changing. Making a diminished chord and a dominant 7 chord a product of the same entity is only one chord. That’s shortening the perception not expanding it by making them the same. Truth is a diminished chord and a dominant chord are 2 completely different chords. Just because a interval exists in one chord and a different chord doesn’t make them the same chord. There is some altering going on to make what you say work. For it to be a match the diminished chord would have to add a b6 for it to be a dominant chord, and for a dominant chord to match a diminished chord it would have to drop a harmonic tone, or should I say “ROOT” tone. If you want to talk to me about mislabeling and misanalyzing chords, you should check what your writing. Like many modern musicians, you think your breaking the rules but really your not. Your just re-naming it.

The I chords function.

There is only one other chord that has the same sort of function as the I chord and that’s the vi chord, or relative minor chord. The thing that makes a tonic chord is the fact that all the other chords will want to pull back to it, not very many chords pull back to ii, iii, IV, or (haha) viio. Modal writing is a different subject and a different lesson. The Principle above still stands. Now to think of every chord as being a function of I, every chord would be a modulation. A principle that should be understand but not consistently.

Passing tone vs. leading tone

What terms? They’re right. I just don’t think you understand what I was saying. Passing tone and leading tone are 2 different terms. A passing tone is a tone(accidental) played between 2 natural notes. Over a D dominant 7 chord: b7-7-1 equals this C-C#-D. C# would be the passing tone.

Suspension 4th

Again you misunderstand what I’m saying. I’m talking about a sus4 extension to a chord. This is what I mean by playing a 4th as suspension over a chord, or a suspension chord (Asus4).

Dominants moving anywhere

Again you misunderstand me. I’m talking about what notes are not good to harmonize over a dominant chord, not altering it. Like a D# (#5) over a G dominant 7 chord. Doesn’t sound good at all.

[griphon2]

I am sorry, but your view is quite askew to actual theory.
This will take some time to explain. I will make it unscientific as possible. (cents and such) Be patient, summer is my work time, don't have much. For example;

"Dominants moving anywhere

Again you misunderstand me. I’m talking about what notes are not good to harmonize over a dominant chord, not altering it. Like a D# (#5) over a G dominant 7 chord. Doesn’t sound good at all."

Totally an abjectly incorrect. I don't get it. It depends upon where it's going. It sounds perfectly fine, to me. If you play a chord, and then play a scale that is altered such as G7, (D#, your view, b13, Eb, my view) sounds perfectly ok. #5 sounds correct, to me. Function is the key and ultimate resolution. Any note can harmonize over a dominant chord. Write your triads out.

[griphon2]

Another view. Your example... G7 play F B (the tritone) D# and place G in the bass. Oh, crap, I've got a G7 augmented.
Sounds perfectly ok to me. Weeding through this nomenclature can be quite tedious. This is STILL a dominant chord.

[griphon2]

This simple precept will work in Major, minor, or Timbuktu.
It's that simple. There's no need to make this, this complicated.

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah man your going to have to explain cause I am finding your theory hard to accept. Seems like your rationalizing each post. Like the #5 over a dominant chord. I didn’t say a 7#5, did I?? I figured you would have gotten that just because I stated that I wasn’t referring to a b9 and 9th dominant. BTW, a 6 will work over a dominant 13th chord and a 4th will work over a dominant 11th. Yes any note will work harmonically over a dominant chord, I was only stating the ones that you should be careful with. And since the entire discussion was about the dominant 7th chord, I figured that would be understood. Please don’t make it more confusing by introducing cents, we’re not talking about microtones here.

Back to the root of this discussion. What tells you the difference between using a diminished chord and a dominant chord?? Like if your writing a tune, what would you consider to be the difference between these 2 chords? Don’t say where they’re going (function) cause they’re both going to want to go back to I. Your theory states to me that a diminished chord can’t stand alone, it would only exist within a dominant chord. And every time you play a diminished chord you throw a note in the bass to make it dominant. To me that is just a option and to insist that actual theory insists on it is completely absurd.

Another view. Your example... G7 play F B (the tritone) D# and place G in the bass. Oh, crap, I've got a G7 augmented.
Sounds perfectly ok to me. Weeding through this nomenclature can be quite tedious. This is STILL a dominant chord.

Yeah. Apply that to what your saying. G7 play F, B and D with G in the bass. Becomes a G7. Could it be G7/B, arranged as B, D, G, F, G. Yeah, so what would this chord be named B, F, B, D. B diminished of course. There is no G in that chord, so it will never be a G dominant 7 chord. Even if you were to add this chord up to being a Bdim7, or Bm7b5. It wouldn’t match. Bdim7 would be B, D, F, Ab, and Bm7b5 would be B, D, F and A. Bottom-line diminished chords are not dominant chord, nor does a diminished chord sit within a dominant chord. The tri-tone, yes. The tri-tone exists within the diminished chord, and I guess you can say it can have that function. Taking the Gm6 chord, arranges as G, Bb, E, G, D, G. A Gm6/E would be arranged like E, G, Bb, G, D, G. This chord could easily be mistakenly written as a Em7b5. Although E is not the dominant sounding note within this chord so it would be aurally incorrect to name it so. G is clear the dominant note as it is played 3 times making it the dominant pitch. To make this chord a Em7b5 chord, E would have to become the dominant note. Thus, it may be written as such, E, Bb, E, G, D, E. The tri-tone may act in a way that a leading tone might by progressing from Bb, E to C, F in the next chord. OR Em7b5 to Fmaj. But if the chord was a Gm6 then a leading tone function would inappropriate. Instead the minor 6th chord would act as a iv in a minor key, or a ii chord in a major key. In the major key a Gm6 would traditionally move straight to a dominant chord (ii-V7), As you can see they’re are many ways in which a tri-tonic chord can act.

[Pantallica1]

.....and it goes on and on my friend....this is a song that doesn't end.....some people started singing it not knowing what it was....but they'll continue singing it forever just because.....

Sorry just needed a non-theory break somewhere in here.

[griphon2]

Maybe there is kindness.

[noticingthemistake]

My point in a nutshell.

Sorry if it seems like I am being unkind. What seems to start of being a friendly debate always turns into my theory is all wrong because, in this case, I don't see every chord with a tri-tone being a dominant chord. Or diminished chord. A minor 6th is chief example of what I am saying. This chord is neither a dominant chord nor a diminished chord, yet it carries a tri-tone. A minor 6 chord can’t be a dominant 9 with the 5th in the bass, because it would be missing the root note making this label incorrect. G9 with the 5 in the bass would be D, G, B, F, A, G and a Dm6 consist of D, F, A, and B. There is no G in a D minor 6 chord. No Match! The minor 6 chord and diminished chord is even farther off from the truth. Again the Dm6 is made up of D, F, A, and B. The tri-tone is clearly F-B, but the middle tone would have to be Ab to make this correct. The A is natural in the Gm6 chord, not flat. Note to the side, in a F dim chord the B would be wrote as Cb, giving it the b5 spelling. Although this is less than addressable to prove my point. Again, No Match! Now the function accepted for a minor 6 chord is a suspension. Illustrated in my reply to Chris about suspension, the i-iv-i or i-iv6-i is a common suspension in the minor key. The same for the chord progression at the bottom of my last post (ii-V7) is also a suspension. Written as ii6-V9, which is a sus2. Clearly a tri-tone exists within a minor 6th chord, and just as clearly it’s function in any case is that of a suspension. Even when it exists within a dominant chord or diminished chord it’s function remains as a suspension. Remember the chord progressions I wrote earlier I-V7-I, suspension, i-iio-i-viio, suspension. I don’t know why I didn’t write this before. haha Hopefully you see my point now griphon. I think we were both right on some ends depending on how we look at things.

[griphon2]

I give up. I just don't agree. You say some of the wildest things. I give up.

[noticingthemistake]

I don't see how I am wrong. And obviously if you read it, you would see that. Or at least have something to disapprove. The only way I'm worng is if I am writting those chords wrong, Am I???

[chris mood]

This sounds like a case of traditionally theory vrs. jazz theory......in jazz it is very common to sub out chords and not to play the root. The interval of a tri-tone is the basis of jazz and blues, and always funtions the same no matter what notes you color in around it. Check out some harmonic analysis of great jazz piano players such as Monk, Herbie Hancock, cecil taylor, etc..

[noticingthemistake]

Welcome back chris. I guess my problem then is I classify chords aurally rather than I guess functionally. If I hear a minor 6 chord, that's what it is. Regardless if it's function was to be a dominant 9 chord with the root sub'd out. Simply cause a minor 6 chord doesn't have to sit in a dominant position, it could just as easily be a ii chord, i chord, or iv chord. I see where griphon is saying a tri-tone functions naturally as a dominant or leading tone because it's a occurrence in the major scale as V and viio. A minor 6 chord, which has a tri-tone, will naturally occur in other chords which makes the dominant and leading tone function only 66% correct. Fact is the interval of a tri-tone only functions or naturally wants to move in one direction. Example in E(b5) the tri-tone of E-Bb, it's natural movement is to F-C. Or it could be classified as Fmaj7sus4-Fmaj7.


E E
C C
Bb ~sus.~> A
A
F F


Bb-A clearly a suspension. The tri-tone movement is clearly in this change although I couldn’t find a way to line it up. And as you can see the E(b5) is in the first chord, along with the F major chord. I could have easily made the E a diminished chord but I saved the trouble of changing the first and second chord to Fmaj9. Clearly a suspension. The same exists with all the other chords I proposed. First the V7-I, the dominant V in which the dominant’s 7th to the tonic’s 3rd is the suspension. And the tri-tone movement is from the 3rd and 7th of the dominant to the 1st and 5th of the tonic chord. Second the iv-i, the subdominant iv in which the subdominant’s 3rd to the tonics 5th is the suspension. And the tri-tone movement is from the 6th and the 3rd of the iv chord to the 3rd and 7th of the tonic chord.

I can't say that all chords carrying the tri-tone will function as a supension. Clearly not the case if it is the tonic chord. But naturally in the diatonic system it's seem to be a valid point of viewthat's equal to the dominant and leading tone function.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-18-2003 at 10:42 AM]

[griphon2]

You are again misconstruing what is being said. I7 is not traditionally tonic. Please correct this notion. In American based music, I7 can be considered tonic, but it's actual function is dominant. (blues, jazz, pop and country) Any tritone is a dominant function. Tonic is a repose function. Writing out triads long enough, everything becomes dominant, but very muddy and ambiguous (like this particular sentence). New rules apply.

An Asus4 is an implied dominant chord. If you want to use it as a I chord or IV, fine, go ahead. (the tune sounds like it doesn't end, not a bad notion, as IV delaying resolution.) The natural resolution is 4th to 3rd. Not all tunes end on I,i-vii. Don't make this more complicated. Dominant or dominant types, or function, move the music (almost every type or genre). Dominants can conceiveably go anywhere. It's because of the nature of the tritone. Dissonance.

[griphon2]

E E
C C
Bb ~sus.~> A
A
F F
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually a C13 suspension, or I'd rather C11, for better voice leading. There are a few other voice leadings you can do. Bad orchestration chord, to me. Too much mud, to write for horns, for example. Needs to be a wider voicing, especially if you want F in the bass. Sorry, but the C7 or F#7 tritone is present. Makes it a dominant chord. Traditionally or modern, it's a tritone chord. Makes it dominant. None of your rationalizations will change that fact. I'm really sorry, to have to say this.

[Edited by griphon2 on 07-18-2003 at 02:25 PM]

[noticingthemistake]

Tri-tone = dominant function

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yady, yady, yady. Call every chord a dominant if I give a hoot, how blind you are to what I am saying. Now again you rationalize your post from the discussion. I never said anything about a “I7”. If your discussing something at least talk about something that is being discussed. The “I” in music refers to tonic, whatever extension comes after it is harmony. Tonic has a function, ha! What’s it’s function??? The I chord can come or go to any chord with it’s key, a far cry from setting rules and functions. Yeah and if you write out your triads enough and it can be become a tonic chord, or just about any chord. No point made here.

An Asus4 is an implied dominant, explain? If you know what a suspension is meant to do, it’s clearly not a dominant chord. Dominants can conceivably go anywhere, true but it has it’s favorites, V7-vi and V7-I(i). Chord substitution may vary this thought, but by your terms of function it’s in this manner. Your idea of tri-tone function is extremely limiting. Another chord where the tri-tone exists in in a Major #11 chord. Formula: 1, 3, 5, 7, (9), #11. #11 is also #4, a tri-tone interval. Clearly not dominant, nor diminished. Do you wish to explain this one??

Oh, but wait if you take out this note and put in this note it's becomes a dominant chord. I know thats what your going to say. -LOL-

C13 suspension

Whatever man, just go back and look at the Fmaj7, I repeat F MAJOR 7. E is a MAJOR seventh above F. Since you brought that up I believe the correct spelling since you want a wider range is Fmaj13. Your right probably a better voicing chord, although suspension usually occur at the 4th or 2nd. Then they’ll quickly resolve to the 3rd or maybe 1st or 5th. Other options yes, but another story. Sorry but just keep bringing up your points and I’ll keep shooting them down.



[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-18-2003 at 03:25 PM]

[griphon2]

It's ashame that the only point of view is yours. Especially at this site. I am trying to help you understand
a very simple theoretical and actual playing point. But you deny, with absolutely no work. You are entwined and transfixed with your point of view. Sorry, it flies in the face of most actual written theory. There are many free college sites that readily explain what I am saying. It's not a POV. They're are actual truths as we know it. Even these truths have been broken, and new ones are written. How can that be a problem? You are changing the title of this site. This is not tricks, but YOUR point of view with no rational sense of accuracy. I find this very suspect. I don't have any idea, what else to say, but goodbye. This wrong information is pitiful.

[noticingthemistake]

Dewd what makes this a shame is the fact that once I bring up something you don’t agree with, frankly you start calling me a liar and how I am misinforming everyone. I completely understood what you were saying and the last post of page 8 says that I agreed with what you were saying but it wasn‘t the whole story. It was me trying to show you something, but you kept fighting it. Even after I gave you several examples. I think when this discussion started I said that the IV chord had a #4 interval, tri-tone, and that a tri-tone doesn’t have to be a dominant chord or leading tone. I think if you would swallow your pride you would realize this and it probably help you with your understanding. I wasn‘t trying to break any truths just show you something. And if a college study ignores this fact then that is pitiful.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 07-18-2003 at 04:06 PM]