This could lead to confusion!

[Josh Redstone]

Hey, lets say someone has perfect pitch, like a guitarist, and lets say he meets a sax player. Couldn't these two get into a massive argument over what note is being played, cause on a lot of horn instruments you have to transpose up or down, I mean, if they didn't know about transposition? Has anyone with perfect pitch ever gotten into an argument like that? Just wondering.

[noticingthemistake]

Heh. Good question. I never thought of that. I guess that could happen if they both didn't know the difference in how they're instruments were tuned, and they wanted to address the note they were playing. I would hope that at least the horn player would know about it. But yeah, it could happen given those circumstances.

Then again, it would be alot more confusing for the guitarist who wouldn't have perfect pitch to figure out the note a sax player was playing. Given the same circumstances that is. If a guitarist with perfect pitch heard a tenor sax player play a C, he would know to play a Eb on the guitar whether he knew about the tuning difference or not.


[Edited by noticingthemistake on 03-31-2003 at 03:05 PM]

[chris mood]

When addressing horn players just refer to the notes as concert pitch, they should know what your talking about.

[Josh Redstone]

Originally posted by noticingthemistake


Then again, it would be alot more confusing for the guitarist who wouldn't have perfect pitch to figure out the note a sax player was playing. Given the same circumstances that is. If a guitarist with perfect pitch heard a tenor sax player play a C, he would know to play a Eb on the guitar whether he knew about the tuning difference or not.


[Edited by noticingthemistake on 03-31-2003 at 03:05 PM]


That happened to me. My friend who plays thr trombone and I were playing a song, but our music teacher hadn't written any horn lines yet, so, I asked what note he was playing. I think it was G (on the trombone anyway), but when I played my G, uuuuugh. Didn't sound too great. Then I learned about transposition and all was well. :)

[noticingthemistake]

Kool. Yeah I was in a Ska band awhile back, and that happened alot between our guitarist and our horn players. Curse those who decided to make that more difficult. :mad:

P.S. I think the trombone actually is in concert pitch. It's the trumpet which is different. I dunno, don't really write too many horn parts.

[Josh Redstone]

I dunno, our notes clashed pretty sourly. (If that makes any sense :) )
Either that or one of us played a wrong note anyway.

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah it makes sense. Maybe one of you was alittle out of tune. I dunno I could be wrong on the trombone issue. I know the trumpet or cornet have two different tunings. One in C and the other is Bb, but I thought they were the only brass instruments that were different. I'll have to check that one.

[Josh Redstone]

Maybe we were out of tune.
I should find out about this sort of thing......

[Slow Diver]

Hey, guys, can you explain what's the difference in the tunning. Cuz its reasonable when you play A on guitar to be A on every other instrument cuz its always 440Hz. I guess...

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah, It would be alot easier if it was that way. A at 440hz is what is called "concert pitch". Not all instruments are in concert pitch, like Saxophones, trumpets, and clarinets.

Here they are:

Bb Clarinet: notes sound a Major second lower.
A Clarinet: notes sound a minor third lower.
Eb Alto Sax: notes sound a major sixth lower.
Bb Tenor Sax: notes sound a major ninth lower.
Eb Baritone Sax: notes sound an octave plus a major sixth lower.
Bb Trumpet: notes sound a major second lower.
C Trumpet: sounds as written.

Josh, I looked up the issue about the trombone and my sources say it is in concert pitch. Let me know if you find anything different. Latr

[Josh Redstone]

Hmm...
One of us must've been out of tune then.

[noticingthemistake]

Do you remember how far off you guys were?? Like he had to play an F on his trombome to be in tune with your G. There is a such thing as a Tenor Trombone, but it's in Eb instrument and it's not commonly used in Jazz arrangements.

[Josh Redstone]

This was actually a rock arrangment, but it was just a regular trombone. My friend had just taken it back out after its non-use for a few months, maybe it was just cold or out of tune or something. Either that or one of use was mistaken about what note to play.

[griphon2]

A=440 is the same on all instrument. The problem occurs mostly in the writing and understanding how instruments are tuned. This can get complicated, but understanding intervals makes it very simple.

[Josh Redstone]

Just so I get this, the transpositions and stuff, from your chart up there, if I wanted to write a clarinet line to sound the same as my guitar, I would have to write everything a whole step down? (Cause its a major 2nd lower)

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah, you were probably out of tune then. The worst sound comes from two notes that are very close, like if you played a G and he played a F# (out of tune). Than that would sound pretty horrible. :)

As for a sound that vibrates at 440 vibrations per second always written as A. I have to disagree. If your talking about a sound that vibrates at 440 vibrations per second being known as the sound of A. That's right. Maybe it's how you stated it, but if a Eb Baritone Sax played a B note. Than that note would be D on the guitar. 440 vibrations per second is known as concert pitch (concert A). Some instruments aren't in concert pitch though, they are written in different keys. Like if you wrote a guitar part in C major, you would have to write the Sax part in Eb major. It's a stupid rule but hey it's worked for centuries. :confused:

[noticingthemistake]

Josh-

You could do it that way, but you can save confusion by writting it in it's appropiate key. If you don't, you'll end up with alot of accidentals and it might confuse you. If you write a guitar part in C major, you would write the clarinet in Bb major. If your just jamming with someone on clarinet, you can either tell him to play in Concert pitch (i.e. Say you play a C major chord, you can tell him/her to play a Concert C. If he understands, he'll know to play a Bb on his part, then all will be good.) If they don't understand Concert pitch (which I doubt), you can just tell him/her to play a Major second lower than you (Bb over your C).

[Josh Redstone]

Ahh, so I could have a guitar part in G major, and the horn lines in a key a certain number of intervals up or down from that one? (Whichever number of intervals depends on the instrument ofcourse)

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah. Just think of all the instruments being in the key of C. Then if you have something like a Bb Clarinet. It would be written a major second lower, because Bb is a major second lower (2 steps) than C. Follow the same intervalic transposition so if the guitar part was in G major. The Bb Clarinet would be in F major. Now if your writting a song in G major, and you want to figure out the horn part on your guitar. You would do so in the key of G major, then transpose it to F major for the Clarinet player. That's the only thing I may have left out. You probably knew that, but just in case.

[Josh Redstone]

Cool. I get it now.

[griphon2]

Here's a site that should explain this reasonably.
http://library.thinkquest.org/16020/data/eng/text/education/theory/ensemb.html

Written and sounding are two different puppies. Remember, the guitar is written 1 octave higher than it sounds. The open A (5th string) is the actual concert 440. Guitar is considered a C instrument. Like a piano, flute, fiddle, etc.

Brass, horns, saxes, harmonicas and certain winds are tuned. It's the nature of the building of the instrument.
Length of pipe, valves, reeds and such. Most people can't afford differently tuned instruments, so a standard arose.
Bb, Eb and F instruments are where they are. Their world is only Bb, Eb or F. They themselves transpose or are transposed (written) to C instruments or concert pitch.

Depending on instrument range the standard is this:
Bb = write a M2 above concert (the key of the tune)
Eb = write a M6 above concert
F = write a Perfect 5th above concert.
Trombones are written in C (or concert standard) in traditional music. (classical) But in brass bands, marching bands and some jazz bands, bones are written as a Bb instrument.
I hope this makes this clearer. This can be horribly confusing. If you have cakewalk, this idea can be heard in midi format.

[noticingthemistake]

Oops! I did make a mistake. Griphon is right when it's a Bb instrument like a Bb CLarinet it is written a Major Second Above concert pitch. So if you have a guitar part in G major, you would transpose the Bb clarinet to A major not F major.

:mad: Curse those for making this more difficult.

[Josh Redstone]

Ahh, I have the answer to the horrible sounding trombone...
Excellent.

[u10ajf]

AAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

What nobody has mentioned here yet is that actually horns (and I think possibly saxs) don't even quite play the same scales we guitarists do which, (if I'm right that saxs have the same problem) is why you guys don't sound good together. The natural differences in notes can be corrected only by the lip adjustments or bending/tremolo arm useage of very skilled players. I read somewhere that horn-players who can play in the more widely used scale system are more employable for ensembles etc..

You see the problem is that us guitarists use a tuning system called the "even tempered system" in which the every semitone change involves an equal change in note value (one note is X fraction higher pitched than the previous). This tuning system was favoured by Bach because it allows players to change between keys in a way that only changes one note at a time. A common alternative was that which is naturally easiest to produce when playing a Horn, a so called "harmonic sequence". Here the intervals in pitch are not equally spaced. This produces notes that sit together more comfortably together but it leaves a real problem for modulating between keys.

If you don't believe me read "In Measured Tones" by Ian Johnston, it's a fascinating book. At the time of writing ABE books have three copies of it so here's their URL: http://abe.com

[noticingthemistake]

We’re not talking about scales though. We’re talking about the difference in transposition of one instrument to another. A scale is just a group of notes that adds up to a tonality. Like a major scale has a certain sound to it, and a minor scale has a different sound. Even C major and A minor have a different sound (tonality) from each other, even though they have the same notes.

Still concert A (440 vibrations per second) on the guitar transposed to a horn instrument should be the same sound in pitch. Regardless of the system of notes it contains, or distance between each pitch. If it didn’t, all music would sound horrible cause everything would be terribly out of tune. And these distances aren’t too much of a factor because no instrument plays an A note that vibrates at exactly 440 vibrations per second. Even the way you pluck a string on your guitar cause the A note to waver around 440 vbs. You can notice this on a tuner cause it will usually waver ever so slightly, depend on its accuracy. Luckily no human ear is perceivable enough to noticing this difference. Every pitch that sounds in the vicinity of 440 vbs. would sound like an A, regardless of instrument. If it strays to low and sort of in between A and Ab than a cultured ear would notice it being a mix between the sound of A and Ab. Although that is out of tune, and it wouldn't sound good with anything. I think the difference in key between instruments (Bb clarinet) already makes up for this difference in the distance between notes.

I believe you man, but it's not a difference to where it would cause both instruments playing an A to sound that bad. More than likely it was a Tenor Trombone, or an Alto Trombone. Which there was a confusion between notes, but regular trombones are still in Concert Pitch.

[u10ajf]

OK, just horns that are odd then. I sit corrected.

[griphon2]

Fiddles have the same problem. Even college students have an incredibly poor sense of pitch. It's that nature of the animal. An excellent embouchure will make a tone more precise, but it takes time. Trumpets, bones, and french horns have to blow 30 miles of tubing, all in essence by ear. Put your finger on a fiddle at the wrong spot, it's horrendous. Have 27 people do that at once. It's astounding to me horn or brass players exist. They have great personalities, but are gluttons for punishment. A sax made me nearly hyperventilate. This stuff is difficult. I'll just play guitar and piss piano players off. It's more fun.

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah any string instrument is the same way. They have to produce the pitch from scratch, not like a guitar where you just hold down on a fret and pluck a string. You have to have an amazing sense of pitch to play strings. That's why most string teachers won't teach students if they're too old, cause the younger you are the easier it is for your ear to be trained.

[u10ajf]

All true but such difficulty can prevent the instrumentalist
from engaging with another kind of difficulty. So ok it's easy for a pianist to make a note but because it's so easy they're expected to do tons of them, often in counterpoint.
I think guitar's brilliant because we're somewhere between the keyboard (maximimum availabillity of notes) and the violin (maximum abillity to express notes) so not only can we play chordal accompaniments we can also make expressive lead melodies.