Michael Angelo picking

[D_Cokolades]

Hello there. I have been reading this forum for about a half year and I now decided to become a member. This is my first post here:). Anyway, I too saw this video by Michael Angelo, Speed Kills and I was wondering how the hell does he pick. When he picks fast, his hand is at the 90 per cent angle to the strings and it looks like he is only moving his point finger and tumb backward and forward. I have tried to play like taht because you can realy move your fingers very fast that way without even moving the wrist or elbow and I must say that it is super fast and the overall control is way better than with elbow/wrist combination. The only problem is that when playing this way you must play with the edge of your pick which does not produce any sound. Any idea? I have looked all over the net but didnt find a thing on tahat matter.

[SLY]

Moving the fingers only for picking is more effective , and less energy wasting.
You should start learning this with easy and slow stuff first , then you'll gain speed by time .
Other people who use this technique are Yngwie Malmsteen and Michael Romeo.

[D_Cokolades]

Yes I have noticed it. I have already studied the Yngwie's and Michael Romeo technique. As for yngwie he olays with the fingers only when playing slow but when moving to fast tempos, he plays from the wrist and fingers. Michael Romeo plays with his fingers at all times and very fast, but he keeps his hand at about 170 per cent angle to the strings. I have tried this it gives great control, the only problem is speed because you must move your thumb in up dovn movement which is kinda unnatural. Then I stumbled onto Michael Angelo. When playing slow, he plays like MR or YM, but at high speeds he puts his hand 90 per cent angle to the strings. That means, he plays more backward-forward movement than up-down(like MR does). This is way faster, I can do it even faster than with wrist the problem is that this way you must pick with the side of your pick which doesn't produce sound. Pick should be somehow twisted or something. So I dont know how MA manages this.

[flash2ace]

angelo uses a stylus pick and he tottaly indorses them and they realy do help. i used to have a link where you can buy them, just go to guitar war online and theres a link there to them. i use em and they allow you to get that angle you are talking about.

[hairbndrckr]

Man I tried one of those stylus picks...They take a lot of getting used to .... and this is coming from someone who uses 2.0MM picks!!!
They do help with the speed though.

[flash2ace]

stylus picks dont put any resistance against the strings when used properly. if you wanna get that smooth angelo or gilbert sound that is a definate way to do so along with countless months of practice baecause we all know that nothing takes the place of practice.

[D_Cokolades]

HeHe. Thank you a lot guys. I am gona grab one of those Stylus picks and give a Michael Angelo style of picking a try. If it doesn't work I can still change it back to my good old wrist + elbow.

[aiwass]

I pick from the fingers exclusively (courtesy of Michael Romeo's instructional video), and I find that you don't get tired with this technique. Even at your maximum speed, you can play constantly for at least a minute or two before actually getting tired.

[cat_eyes_gb]

da hell is a stylus pick? are those the thick ones that yngwie uses? please enlighten me :)

[aiwass]

Stylus picks have a twisted tip. Don't bother with them though. It really doesn't matter. Nowadays Angelo uses Jazz IIIs anyway, (along with all the other great guitarists) and he's playing just as fast as he did back in the Nitro days.

[flash2ace]

the stylus pick is a very useful learning tool that teaches minimum movement away from the strings as you play across them. the less you move your pick away from the strings the faster you can pick, paul gilbert himself said that you can pnly play as fast as you can alterante pick on his instructional video, he then showed some neat technics that realy help with this. the stylus pick kicks butt what it is is a pick made from some kinda plastic but on the tip it has a diamond sorta shaped tip which alows the pick to naturaly roll over the strings back and fourth thus eliminating to much movement away from the string, basicly the pick never leaves the string which is a awesome speed technic. if you wanna play as fast as macalpine or angelo and that crowd it is an advantage that teached you minimum movement and after youve used it for a while when you swith back to a normal pick this idea stays with you so there you have it in a nutshell. i hope this helps. i used one for 2 years steadily and i still use it from time to time and i dont think i wasted my time. happy shredding flash.

[aiwass]

I agree that being able to pick with such little movement that the pick doesn't leave the string is a good idea. But I can already do that using my Jazz III, so I won't be needing any stylus sh*t...

[flash2ace]

hey aiwass im proud of you lol,(just joking). but that is what i mean not all people can do that with there picking technic, i just simply stated that the pick helps with your technic thats all.the one thing i gotta work more on is my finger picking, whoever mentioned that in this thread that they finger pick like hell please if you know of any links to this sorta style hook me so ill be styling man. thanks and god bless tim pate the flash

[Dejan Sajinovic]

Little movement, sure but check out Morse and Wylde for ex. Mega movement, still fast and right on. It´s same for me. Playn´ slow I can minimilaze my pic hand movement but fast, it´s impssible. But I don´t mind ´cause as long as it works, who cares. When it stop workin´ (probably ´cause of a injury if it ever happends off course) I´ll consider a change.

[flash2ace]

i can agree with that what ever works works, its just a matter of working it slow and building up in speed over the weeks and heck you might even find like a 5% increase in your speed overall with minimum movement away from the strings, it makes since that the further away you move your hand that the longer it takes to move it back there and it is pretty much common since to try and minmalize this and get it under control, ive seen zack play with big hand movements well playing rythm but not well lead playing, do you think jason becker could have pulled half the speed outta his butt that he did if he had a outta control picking hand or so to say, its somthing to think about and the way i see it any tool that helps minimize the movement and gives you results is a tool everyone should use and learn from. the stylus pick does just that.

[cat_eyes_gb]

can anybody please post a pic of a stylus pick (haha, it rhymes)! tnx

[SLY]

Check this : http://www.jimdunlop.com/picks/specialty.html

[Icon_xof]

Whats up guys.
I was just shifting through the forum and I happened upon this little discussion, so I fugured I'de throw in my 2 cents :) . Now I'm probably a rookie compared to you guys, as I only have 6 1/2 years under my belt, but I use a picking style that most people I meet find odd. I had to end up picking like this to play along with a song I was learning at the time, "War Ensemble" by Slayer. I was only learning the riffs because Slayer (altho my favorite band) has real crappy "off the top of your head" solos. The verse riff to this song is very fast and alternates between 2 strings. The only way I could keep up with this was to lock my elbow and fingers and get the picking motion from moving my wrist in a diagonal motion along with "twisting" my forarm. The only draw back I had with this technique is it was difficult to ascend the strings with it. For some reason I had no problem moving from e to E but it took a while to move from E to e quickley. Well, I'm done, hope I helped in some way.

[aiwass]

I'm familiar with the picking technique. I used to use it too. Bloody great way of getting tendonitis. Also, it's practically impossible to play complicated stuff at high speeds that way (try some Symphony X or Jason Becker to see what I mean).

If I were you, I would convert to using just the fingers. The whole idea of proper picking technique is to be relaxed, and you can't accomplish that with the forearm technique.

[Icon_xof]

Told ya I was a rookie next to you guys :). I dont get what you mean by using only your fingers. Do you mean to just move your finger and thumb that hold the pick back and forth? with no wrist or forarm movement? Please elaborate....

[aiwass]

Yep. Use your thumb to move the pick forwards, and your index finger to move the pick backwards. I suggest you find a video of Michael Romeo.

[Icon_xof]

Man, I'm workin on the technique you described and I see what your talking about! I never knew picking could be this relaxed. It's making it so much easier to move up and down the strings. I cant thank you enough man. I thought my freakin elbow was gonna fall off! :)

[D_Cokolades]

I am working on that to and it offers you 100% more accuarcy than wrist or elbow picking, the only problem is speed.

[aiwass]

The important thing with this technique is patience. I think I started over about three times before I got it right, cuz when you start playing at higher speeds, you just want to use your forearm or wrist. That's when you have to discipline yourself, and concentrate on using only the fingers, no matter how much you feel like using the arm. It's hard, but the result is awesome. Also, it helps to learn how to pick very fast without using much force.

[Icon_xof]

You rule aiwass :)

[aiwass]

Erm.. No. But thanks anyway.

[Icon_xof]

Hey aiwass, I'm really trying to get that picking technique down. I have a question, when you say, "dont move your wrist" do you mean dont move your wrist at all? Also, I was wondering if you could possibly tab me a good 6 string exercise for this technique. Thanks...

[SLY]

Originally posted by Icon_xof
" do you mean dont move your wrist at all?

That's almost impossible dude , we are not machines ... Just try to limit the elbow and wrist movement as you can , they'll will be shaking a little bit , but make sure that the main picking movement comes from the fingers.

BTW, wrist picking ain't too bad , check out John Petrucci.

[D_Cokolades]

The reason why I am trying to develope this technique is because I find it as natural for me as it gets. When picking from the wrist or elbow I tend to tens up. I am a trained classical guitarist, have been playing classical for about 8 or 9 years(no pick, only finger style). I think it due to that. I switched to electrical about a year ago and I must say it is totally different, almost like playing different instrument.

[aiwass]

Originally posted by SLY
Originally posted by Icon_xof
" do you mean dont move your wrist at all?

That's almost impossible dude , we are not machines ... Just try to limit the elbow and wrist movement as you can , they'll will be shaking a little bit , but make sure that the main picking movement comes from the fingers.

BTW, wrist picking ain't too bad , check out John Petrucci.

I'm a huge fan of DT (worship them daily)and John Petrucci, but his picking style seems impractical to me. Granted, he gets a really cool percussive sound with his brutal picking, and if that's what you're going for, that could also be the thing for you, but his technique is not nearly as accurate or efficient as that of for example George Bellas or Michael Romeo (who pick from the fingers).

As for not moving wrist/forearm at all: When going across the strings, it's OK to MOVE the wrist/forearm to position your hand. Make sure, however, that ALL of the picking motion is coming from the fingers holding the pick. You can check this by playing repetitive exercises on a single string. If anything else than your fingers is moving when picking a single string, you are doing it wrong. Also, you should feel no trension in the wrist- or forearm muscles.

As for exercises, use three-note-per-string scales (I play all the modes of the major scale). Chromatic scales have a much too predictable pattern, while 3nps scales force you to break away from that habit. Also, practice "inside picking" patterns.

For instance:


(start on a downstroke)

--15-14-12----------------12-14-15-14-12-----------
-----------15-13-12-13-15----------------15-13-12-etc.
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------


And:

(Start on a downstroke)

----15-14-12----------15-14-12------------------------
-------------15-13-12----------15-13-12-etc.----------
------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------

[Icon_xof]

Thanks alot for helpin me out. Today I downloaded some vidios of Yngwei Malmsteen, Michael Romeo, and Slash to analize their picking technique. I was amazed, they all use their fingers to pick and they go so fast! I also noticed one thing they all have in common is that they keep the tip of their pinky on their picking hand on the pick guard just below the e string. I tried this and it helped alot also. Thanks for the exercises, I'm going to add them to my practice routine. By the way have you ever heard Cynic? The have bad-ass guitarists. If you wanna check them out I would recommend the song "Celestial Voyage" off of their only album "Focus" '93 . And if you really wanna check these guys out you can look at their tabs. Their in Power Tab, if you dont have it you can get it at http://www.cynicalsphere.com/software.html and you can get the tab at http://www.cynicalsphere.com/tablature.html. Their kind of a cross bewtween heavy metal and Jazz, you'de have to get an MP3 of them to see what I'm talkin about.

[SLY]

When I look at my picking , I mostly play with finger movement , and sometimes use wrist motion ... The point is that I don't usualy think of my picking , it comes natural to me , and it has to be comfortable... Malmsteen says he never thinks about how he pick too. (that doesn't include thinking of the up & down strokes sequence of course)

[D_Cokolades]

Do you extend your thumb when doing 1.upstroke or 2.downstroke?
I am asking because one way feels a lot more akward(2) then the other(1).

[aiwass]

Push the thumb forwards (away from you) for downstrokes, pull the index finger backwards (towards you) for upstrokes.

[Cavefish X]

I started using the Frank Gambale "Economy" style of picking by mistake - it hasnt let me down yet. It also makes sweeping alot easier. I use a Dunlap stubby 3.0 MM, between my thumb and index finger using the wrist/elbow movement combination (like Vinnie Moore).
I've found that in some situations you have to use the old fashioned alternate picking, so its wise to practice both.
Reguardless of what technique you use, with practice, motivation, discpline, and time you will be fast.

[aiwass]

Yeah, economy picking is cool. If you wanna see a true master of that, check out Marshall Harrison (www.marshallharrison.com). The guy plays an 8-string, 36-fret guitar, and economy-picks like no one else. He's also a member over at the Petrucci forum:D

[Icon_xof]

I think Im finally getting the finger picking down, but I have to admit its no good for jammin hard core riffs :) . When Im jammin to Slayer or Pantera I gotta throw the whole right side of my upper body into it or I dont feel like im getting into it lol. By the way (totally off the subject and should probably be on another page) does anyone know a cheap and effective way to repair a crack in an exhaust manifold?

[D_Cokolades]

I finally got Michael Romeo video and man am I impresed. But I think that he is not only playing with his fingers like aiwass said. I think he is using a wrist to.

[aiwass]

Nah I'm pretty damn sure he uses his fingers for the most of it. He just holds his pick differently than Angelo. Angelo uses the thumb joint alot more, while Romeo utilizes his whole thumb.

[SLY]

Originally posted by D_Cokolades
I think he is using a wrist to.

Finger movement for picking doesn't mean that your wrist and forearm should be fixed like concrete, it means that the main movement comes from your fingers .
On the other hand , if you use wrist movement , you'll find your fingers pretty fixed... Check out yourself , with low tempo so you can notice precisely.

Don't try to analyze other players' technique and copy it as if you were his clone , good picking should come natural to you , with a little hard work at the beginning.

[aiwass]

Well said. Personally I took the players whose right hand technique I was impressed by (Angelo, Malmsteen, Bellas, Romeo) and molded my picking technique loosely off theirs. My index finger is more curved than Romeo's, more like Bellas', but not as much as Angelo's. My main movement comes from the the thumb and index fingers only. I keep my pick over the neck pickup and rest my fngertips on the guitar body, just like Angelo, but unlike Romeo, Malmsteen and Bellas.

That's just one of many combinations. Find out what's more comfortable to you, and what allows you to play relaxed.

[D_Cokolades]

Just one more question as I can see you two guys know a lot about this technique :). As I have said earlier I am a classical/fingerpicking guitarist. So when finger picking(it doesnt work on electric guitars by the way) you must have this Michael Angelo right hand posture when he is playing fast(curled in the wrist) for it to work and my hand is so used to this that I feel akward when I put it in the way that most electric players do. I also feel akward when playing from my wrist only. I guess classical guitar f***** up my right hand in all this years:(. Anyway all would be great if just someone could explain me how the hell can Michael Angelo have this hand posture and still hit the strings with the flat part of the pick?

[aiwass]

I think he was using an angled pick at the time he recorded Speed Kills, but it can be done with a regular pick too. Who says you have to pick with the flat side of the pick? Lots of guys pick at a pretty sharp angle.

[SLY]

Don't try to copy Michael Angelo's picking position precisely , it may not work for you .

I was a classic/spanish finger picking guitarist when I first started for 2 years before I began with elec and I think that it helped me a lot.
Probably your problem is that you forgot how hard and time consuming was progressing in your guitar technique since you are an advanced finger picking now .

As a classic finger picker , I believe you have more controle and strength in your picking fingers (fingers holding the pick) than most elec only guitarists which gives you an advance .
The only advice I can give you is a one I've read long time ago in a beginner book , which is to practice infront of a mirror , closely watching your technique ... Take care that the main motion comes from the fingers , regardless of your hand/wrist posture is.

You can angle your pick , which ease the playablility somehow but takes out clarity , attack & the definition of the pick , and make a siginificant tonal difference between up and down strokes , or you can have less angled pick (or slighlty parallel to strings) which gives better tone and attack , and evens the tone of both up and down strokes.

It's your choice , and I can't say which is right/wrong , or which is better/worse , since lots of guitarists use either technique exclusively or both ... Personaly I use both for the variation of tone on purpose , but I usualy prefere the tone of a less angeled pick.

[ketsueki15]

ive read in a book that if u gonna play fast..one of the best ways to hold the pick is like exactly pdrpendicular to the string or having no angle in the pick..is thast tru?

[SLY]

I believe you read the opposite , but just having a bad memory , like me . ;)
LOL

Most shredders angle their pick cuz it's easier since the resistance to picking is reduced this way ... I sometimes do this too , but I prefere a less angle for the pick difinition.

[ketsueki15]

well i try not to angle my pick because it becomes more of a problem to me when skipping to the string oppisite of the angle but having no angle mmade it easier..but that just me..wat ever works for someone they should stick to it

[SLY]

That's cool dude ... You've got both ease of playing and better tone in one shot ! ;)

[ketsueki15]

ohh...so having no angle in ur pick gives it a better tone? i didnt know that... wat are some good 3 string arpeggios to start with?

[SLY]

Kirk Hammett's solo intro from "Lepper Messiah" , and Malmsteen's diminished sweeps .

I don't have time right now , but if you need more examples I can post some next time if you would like.

Also search this site , there are some nice examples here.

[ketsueki15]

alright man..dont worry bout posting any..my fav arpeggios has to be the deminished arpeggios that give it that classical sound.. is micheal angelo in a band or is he a solo guy?

[SLY]

He was in a band called NITRO , he also played with a number of bands that I'm not familiar with ... Now , he's moslty a solo artist.

[cat_eyes_gb]

can you post those diminished sweeps, and other neo classical sounding sweep arps. can't seem have enough of them :)

[SLY]

Diminished sweep :

--------10-13p10--------|
-----12----------12-----|
--13----------------13--|
------------------------|
------------------------|
------------------------|

Diminished lick from Malmsteen's "Far Beyond the Sun" :

-----------10-13p10-------------13-16p13-------|--------16--19s21~---------|
--------12----------12-------15----------15----|-----18--------------------|
--10s13----------------13s16----------------16-|-s19-----------------------|
-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------|
-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------|
-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------|



3-string sweeps from Kirk Hammett's solo intro from "Lepper Messiah" :

e-19P15-------------15-
b-------17-----17------
g-----------16---------


e--20P17----------17-
b--------18----18----
g-----------17-------

e-22P19----------19-
b-------20----20----
g----------19-------


In the middle of Metallica's "Creeping Death" solo :

e---------12--17p12---------
b-----13-------------13-----
g-14---------------------14-



Some more examples:

E min
e--------12h16p12---------
b----12------------12-----
g-13-------------------13-


E maj
e--------12h15p12---------
b----12------------12-----
g-12-------------------12-


A maj
e-------12h17p12---------
b----14-----------14-----
g-14------------------14-



These are the basic major/minor & diminished 3-string sweeps.


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