simple mode question

[xplosive58]

If im play in a mode, say Lydian, with a C progression playing in the background, would I play the Lydian scale with the "root" at C, or would i always use it relative to the its major scale?

[BarHook]

i know that if you stick an F major chord in your C chord prog, and play F lydian (relative to C maj), it should sound lydian.

[chris mood]

You can do both. Playing F lydian would be playing Diatonic to the giving chord progression. Playing C Lydian would be implying a modal tonality. Try mixing together C lydian and C major for some nice chromatic lines. Good luck!

[SLY]

Originally posted by xplosive58
If im play in a mode, say Lydian, with a C progression playing in the background...

What do you mean by a C progression , Cmaj progression ?

If the prog is C maj , you can play F lydian by altering the progression to end with an F .

If you want to play a C lydian mode , then the C progression should be a C lydian one ... i.e. Gmaj progression , but with the C as the tonal center.

[griphon2]

Every Lydian is based on the 4th note of a scale. The quickest way to find it, is from the 5th of the chord. Regardless of chord for Lydian, the parent scale is from the 5th. This will create a can of worms.

[griphon2]

Simply put, Lydian sounds! more tonal than Ionian, especially in terms of Blues based music.

[griphon2]

Your C Lydian mode, which would actually be a G Maj scale, and harmony, is found from the 5th of any chord.
Lydian in terms of actual funtion, is I or IV. The IV function is more 5th or 4th sounding, which is more within the traditional rules, even though tradition doesn't like it much. (due to overtones.)

[griphon2]

If you were to play TRUE Lydian, it would never end. Or it is an end.

[griphon2]

There is a Lydian dominant, which is still from the 5th of the chord you are playing.

[xplosive58]

alright thanks. ill expirement with this

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
The IV function is more 5th or 4th sounding, which is more within the traditional rules, even though tradition doesn't like it much. (due to overtones.)

I hear you talking about overtones alot, griphon. I've never really understood the whole idea, especially when it comes to traditional and classical views. To me, and I think I am misunderstanding it, but overtones are a part of the notes. The overtones or should I say group of overtones is what gives a certain note a particular sound. Overtones are actually only sychronized vibrations that occur in the waveform. Just like when you play a C, you can hear alittle bit of the G sound too. Then it goes up, and goes through almost every note in the chromatic scale. So where would be the basis for a theory based on this science? I don't doubt it, I just don't understand it but I'd like to. Could you explain it better. Thanx

[griphon2]

http://www.smu.edu/totw/overtone.htm
http://www.music.ecu.edu/courses/brass/OVERTONE_SERIES.HTML

Two reasonably simple explanations above will attempt to explain the overtone series. The overtones were known even before Pythagorus. Pythagorus and Fourier (sp) wrote treatises to explain the idea. Simply put, modern harmony manipulates traditional harmony to make the dissonances or the out of tune notes in the overtone series sound correct or more palatable to the ear. (very noticeable in horns and on the average guitar above the 7th fret) Equally noticeable with computer software and hardware if not properly controlled.
Hope this helps a little.

[griphon2]

In general, notes a 7th above the fundamental are slightly out of tune on most instruments. These notes were banned by certain power entities at one time or the other. Modern outlook changed all that. That's why Mick Jagger sounds correct or right, today. Some singers today can't make Jagger sound better than Jagger. He sings quite flat, but it sounds cool. Some singers today overuse this flatness to death. The pitches sound horrid or even wretched, to me.

[noticingthemistake]

Thanx bro. It's explained some things, I still can't see a basis of theory on it. Even more a reason to discard any part of music, because even a simple C note is out of tune with itself. Making a simple chord out of it, C5 is just horribly out of tune if you pay attention to these harmonics and base these strict views on it. The idea of harmonizing over a C note with a G would cause harmonics in every pitch, even out of tune pitches. It looks like there is no satisfaction from this analysis. That's just how I see it.

It's impossible to get rid of, even the harmonics of a note change with a different instrument (even 2 different guitars). The harmonics that sound make up the note sounds, like a group of pitches make one singular fundamental pitch. If you got rid of all the harmonics and only heard the fundamental, it would be like looking a picture in only the color white.

I really just seem to be another over-analyzed theory to try to give perfect stability to music. If it helps some that's kool, but music is about hearing not science. You could easily go through life just playing the chord progression I - vi - IV - V7 because it works and science allows it. Why can't you play a chord progression like i - vi(hd) - ii(hd) - V7 (hd - half-diminished). Alot of theories will say this won't work or whatever, but it sounds awesome! Isn't that the point, what sounds good not what theory say you can or can not do??

[griphon2]

I agree. These new (or old) notes that were not allowed, politically, have altered the way we sing and play. Some time has to pass before these new (or old) notes become acceptable. Hence, blues and rock and roll. There have been many ingenious people that have tried to make this music legit. You must understand, that politically, in R&R's early days, was STILL considered the devil's music. It is not over-theorizing, but making those new (or old) notes legit in terms of tradition. What's interesting is, those notes that are slightly out of tune, changes function. Anytime one plays a blues or blue scale, you're really playing a view of the overtone series. At one time, this was unacceptable.
It has finally become en vogue. Anyone and everyone can play or sing # or b and it's perfectly acceptable. Ironically, a full circle,... of 4ths and 5ths. That's the control.

[griphon2]

A true lydian has no leading tone, or tritone. It sounds more ZEN like. Rearranging the lydian structure, makes it something other than lydian. Lydian dominant means, and only means, that you take the lydian scale and b (flat) it's seven. The #4 (or b5th) becomes more tonal in terms of the b7th. More blues or American oriented. This idea really doesn't appear in any other popular cultures.

[chris mood]

Chord progressions are funny that way' it's all what you do to them. Try playing in the key of Emajor I , minor v, ii, vi, to major V. It sounds like poop. Now take a listen to the Beatles "She's leaving Home", sounds pretty cool when they do it. Some chord progressions definitely don't stand alone when taking out of context.

[griphon2]

Because they're tonal. Because of this new point of view (I thought old) that this is possible, traditionally. Just because a tune starts in one key, doesn't mean it will end that way. Here comes another can of worms. Em or Emaj is the same thing, sort of, in American music. (you can play an Em or maj scale as a legit ending.) Not so in traditional logic. In American POV, maj and min ends the same. American music is unique. Tradition does not think this way.

[griphon2]

V I, still always sounds alone, no matter how you disguise it. Regardless, of variations. Until there is a major reconstruction of instruments, there will always be V i or I. Makes one think, if we, as humans, are coming to the end of the variations. How is your Beatle progression out of context or taken out of context? (what is the progression, I've forgotten and don't have the recording any longer?)

[Edited by griphon2 on 02-08-2003 at 07:45 PM]

[noticingthemistake]

The Lydian Dominant is also a Mixolydian with a #4(just a note). Also with what you said griphon, the lydian dominant serves its function as fundamentally being "dominant". Both major chords that exist within its scale are dominant chords, every other note fits easily into an extension of that chord. It's also serves a good purpose of harmonizing over "dominant chords".

If you were to use a chord progression like B7 - Em - A7 - Dmaj, the lydian dominant plays a role in this movement. Since the movement is primilarly in a descending fashion, this is easy to accomplished with the use of modulation and the lydian dominant in thought. The last 3 chords are simple and common chord progression on a Major scale, D major (ii - V7 - I). Although the first one isn't, but it plays an important role in the modulation from a Lydian dominant to a Major key. The B7 might be the second chord of the A Lydian Dominant scale, and the Em would be the "v/ii in the key of Dmaj". So the process of modulation would be smooth, and the lydian dominant plays a large role if a dominant chords appear in estranged positions. Here's the movement again:

A lydian dom. II7 _v
_____________B7 - Em - A7 - Dmaj
_________________ii ----- V7 - I D major.

The process of modulation is expodential.

Chris- actually chords are not meant to stand alone. There whole function in music is to create movement, which is what music is about. So one single chord doesn't want to stand alone, and the progression v, ii, vi, to major V in the key of E major. There is some use of modulation there which what creates flow or movement. Music doesn't really want to stay in one key, at least I don't think so. A song will become stagnant if it stays in one key the whole time, moving through different keys as the song progresses help the music keep its flow. Like griphon said, a song doesn't necessarily have to end with the same note it started with. Most music does though, and its a good starting point if your tryin to learn a song and you want to know what key it's in.

Knowing how to move through keys is a call for the ear, you must understand how each key is going to sound before you move from one to another. At least to be effective with it, the game for "pitch perception". Like you would play a song in G major and you wanted to go to Ab major. Everyone knows that the impression of the music is going to change, but how. G major is going to show more warmth in it's sense, when Ab more is going to lean more towards the mellower side. Regardless if you played soft and mellow riffs in G, and then rocked out in Ab. So modulation is a skill of the ear, not mind. Music theory science shows how to get there, but not what impression it's going to leave.

Biggest reason why you should let your ear decide, not your mind.

Originally posted by Griphon2
V I, still always sounds alone, no matter how you disguise it.

What do you mean by alone? Yeah they would have a different role to play when relating to the Key. V is always dominant sounding, and the I is always solid sounding. Along with all the other chords in the sense of movement.

If I was just to play G dominant chord, what chord would it be?? I7, II7, iii7, V7??? These roman numerals don't mean squat without a key to give them a role to play.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-09-2003 at 12:30 AM]

[griphon2]

B7, Em7, A7, Dma7 is simply a cycle of 5ths. Nothing more or nothing less, in key or out of key, regardles of quality of chord. Understanding where the dominants come from is the key to success. Otherwise, I agree for the most part. There are, to me, 2 chords I or i,a place to start, a V, a place to go to, and a i or I, a place to end. There are many variations, but it stills boils down to I or i and V.

"The Lydian Dominant is also a Mixolydian with a #4(just a note)." This statement is simply untrue. I've been trying for hours to make it true or to fit the rules. You can come close to lydian dominant by altering the true Dorian with a #4, not Mixo, this becomes a Dorian #11 or #4. (A maj scale is the dorian to B, another way to say this, is B is ii in the key of A or 1 whole step below the root.) You can also play A melodic minor, this gives you a Dorian b9 or combine both. This confusion always arises from not understanding mode construction. A mixo #4 conflicts with our example of B7. Not a dominant 7th, but a maj 7. Dorian is always ii except in Harmonic minor.
iv in Harmonic minor. There is no true mixolydian in Harmonic minor. Lydian Dominant and Mixolydian #4 are distinctly two different scales.

[Edited by griphon2 on 02-09-2003 at 05:14 PM]

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
B7, Em7, A7, Dma7 is simply a cycle of 5ths. Nothing more or nothing less, in key or out of key. Understanding where the dominants come from is the key to success.

I agree. I was just showing the use of modulation, cause chris had a different chord progression and I was explaining how the idea behind it works. Since we were talking about the lydian dominant, I used that one as an example to get to a major key. The first chord doesn't fit with a D maj scale. The roman numerals would be VI7 - ii - V7 - I, and everyone knows the 6th(VI) in a major scale is minor(vi), the dominant chord also does not fit. Thats the point I was trying to get acrossed, that and the lydian dominant being used. It actually works quiet well when used that way. Maybe you need more chords before that B7 to get it.

Originally posted by griphon2
There are, to me, 2 chords I or i,a place to start, a V, a place to go to, and a i or I, a place to end.

Actually, you should try starting with the V chord. It works quiet well, giving the song a sense of started of with a powerful chord. Beethoven's 5th Symphony starts on the V. Just a suggestion.

The Lydian dominant is a Mixolydian #4 scale, also. As far as I can see anyways.

Take a C lydian dominant scale.
E:------------------
B:------------------
G:------------2-3-5-
D:------2-4-5-------
A:--3-5-------------
E:------------------

Now a C Mixolydian...
E:------------------
B:------------------
G:------------2-3-5-
D:------2-3-5-------
A:--3-5-------------
E:------------------

Now sharp the 4th...
E:------------------
B:------------------
G:------------2-3-5-
D:------2-4-5-------
A:--3-5-------------
E:------------------

Looks right to me. If I missed something let me know.

[griphon2]

These following simple rules or tricks will always work in most circumstances. I recommend doing the paperwork. Understanding these rules, will give any serious guitarist a very clear understanding as to how modes work in American or blues oriented music. Some of the following ideas break traditional logic. All can be started from the third fret, ONLY! Play a simple G bar chord as background or loop.

Play a major scale from:

Ionian - Root (for G play Gmaj scale) I

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Phyrgian -m6 above the root (M3 below the root) (for G play Ebmaj scale) iii

Lydian -5th above the root (for G play Dmaj scale) IV

Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V

Aeolian - m3 above the root (M6 below the root) (for G play Bbmaj scale) vi

Locrian -1/2 step above the root (for G play Abmaj scale) vii

[griphon2]

A C lydian dominant is a G melodic minor (from C if you want to look at it that way). Or a G maj scale with a b3rd from the 5th of C7. Always. Lydian is always IV.
Or the major scale from the 5th of the chord. The melodic minor from the 5th of the chord is the lydian dominant.
This is the simplest way to find parent scales on the guitar. These are all lydian type scales.

[Edited by griphon2 on 02-09-2003 at 06:08 PM]

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
A C lydian dominant is a G melodic minor (from C if you want to look at it that way). Or a G maj scale with a b3rd from the 5th of C7. Always. Lydian is always IV.
Or the major scale from the 5th of the chord.

Yeah, lydian is the IV when your thinking with the major scale primiarly in mind. My point is the lydian scale itself is a completely different scale and it has no relationship with the major scale what so ever. I know how much you hate Roots of scales, but you have to look at like that. Tonality is the key, a lydian scale sounds different from a major scale. Same with the lydian dominant and the melodic minor. They may have the same notes, and I know you know this. If you play something in C major, then play it in A minor. It sounds different. All scales act differently in the same way. So if your saying lydian is always IV, your actually playing a major scale(or at least thinkin in terms of it).

The lydian dominant is the same way, if it's a IV it's the subdominant of the melodic minor. When actually the lydian dominant scale is called that for three reasons; one is the root can be written as a dominant chord.

Take C lydian dominant.
C D E F# G A Bb
C E G Bb = dominant chord

The second reason, is because of the #4 which is a recognizable part of the lydian mode. The flat 7th is there from the dominant purpose(root).

There is also another dominant chord in there. D F# A C.

And last, the reason you said. The lydian mode is always a IV in a major scale. But the scale itself (lydian dominant)doesn't act as a IV, it has it's own set of chordal structure arrangement. ( I II iiio ivo v vi VII+ )

Here's the melodic minor: i ii III+ IV V vio viio

I know alot of theory teachers and books have this all screwed up. Simply because modern ideas on modes is that they only exist within there diatonic scales. Now, culturally we are a prodominantly major/minor oriented; the true use of modes is hardly un-opened.

The way you find scales on the fretboard is absolutely correct (still think it's alittle harder, but hey... :) ). I did something like that when I started, if I needed to find a melodic minor scale. I would just play a minor scale and raise the 6th and the 7th. Or easier, play a major scale and just flat the 3rd. Now that I've been playing for sometime, I just know them uniquely by there pattern. You shouldn't have to think of a different scale to find another. Too confusing, when it's so simple.

[griphon2]

I don't have any real problems with this logic. I rarely write or see or play pure modes. Nowadays, I rarely play pure scales. I used this system years ago, so I wouldn't have to do tons of paper work to figure this out. In time you learn and quickly memorize the sound and fingering. Chords, intervals and tonal centers are visual on the guitar. This is a backdoor method without a lot of manual labor, like you would do on the piano. I always hated Trig and Calculus because of the long winded verbage. It is just easier to me, to get to the point and the result. I don't much care about keys. Music is much like a watercolor wash and collage. Music moves in a cycle, whether the type, popularity or the music itself. I extract what I need for the situation I'm in. Your example plus one: F#7 B7 Em7 A7 Dma7#11. You can play an entire D scale through this progression. I would just add just two notes to the scale, IF I wanted to. (A#, D#) It would sound perfectly legit and logical, either way.
As an excercise, all guitarists should be able to play the cycle of 4ths and 5ths in dominants in one position. A very enlightening excercise.

[noticingthemistake]

Maybe I came off as disagreeing with you. Actually I wasn't, it's just when you said lydian is always IV. Which is true, but it's misinterpeted when it comes to seperating it for the melodic minor. Alot of people when they first learn modes, and I seen millions of questions just on this forum, think that modes are the same as the major scale. They don't understand and are confused by their function, and why there are even modes to begin with. Most trash them, even one of my theory teachers did until I explained to him what possibilties they open up.

A tip!
When you write:

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Say "for G (dorian) play the Fmaj scale starting with G". It's alittle more direct to the point. Cause it sounds like playing the F major scale from F, is just like the G dorian. That's getting them mixed up.

I myself don't use modes or scales much either in the sense of complete composition. I use them more as an understanding of a chord progression and what kind of different flavors I added/or can add. I follow my ear, but I know when I harmonized a chord with a particular scale. And later I want to bring it back in an interlude/bridge, my understanding of what I did makes it that much easier. The basic composition is always easy, but sometimes you wanna go back and doctor it up a bit, put stuff in , take stuff out, whatever.

Originally posted by griphon2
Your example plus one: F#7 B7 Em7 A7 Dma7#11. You can play an entire D scale through this progression. I would just add just two notes to the scale, IF I wanted to. (A#, D#) It would sound perfectly legit and logical, either way.

Actually you can do any number of things with that chord progression. If you followed your ear, when you came up with that chord progression, and then harmonized over it using your ear. Say you noticed you played a melodic line in lydian dominant over the A7. Later you want to bring that back in a extended bridge, you play that same melodic line over a chord progression A7 D#dim Em. Then start a new part with Dmaj7#11. Whatever. The understanding is the key guided by the ear.

I noticed this with my theory teacher cause he was struggling and I asked him what was up. He had written a harmony over a chord, and he want the get that particular sound again when he brought back that chord. But he didn't want to use the same notes. Thats what I explained to him, and it worked.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 02-10-2003 at 02:30 PM]

[griphon2]

Cool, D#dim7, pragmatically, is a altered B7. B7b9.