What do famous guitar players use?

[msinia]

Hi to all...

I've been focusing in improvising lately but i've only used pentatonics so far. So i was wondering what kind of scales do the best guitar players use?

I heard that people like Clapton and BB King only work with pentatonics and Vai and Satriani work with modes, can you guys please explain this further?

Thanks in advance,

[SLY]

You should learn as much scales & chords as you can, so you have more choices and sound more versatile.

Check out other older threads in this section of the forum, you'll find some detailed explaination of modes & stuff.

[TheDirt]

Almost all guitarists know and use the major and minor pentatonic scales, and a lot usse the blues scale too. Most guitarists use the major and minor scales either from knowing the scale or just playing by ear. Many intrumental guitarists utilize modes, but most mainstream musicians just use the major and minor scales.

Take Metallica's black album for example, most people know what their songs sound like. They use minor pentatonic a LOT, as well as the natural minor scale, and the phyrgian mode. BB King plays mainly the blues scale, but he plays some Dorian elements sometimes too. Clapton uses mainly major and minor pentatonic. Eric Johnson uses a lot of Pentatonics, as well as major, minor, and dorian.

The chords people play over affects their sound a lot. For example, a lot of blues players will play the blues scale over a major progression.

My suggestion: learn the seven modes of the major scale and the major and minor pentatonic scales. This will keep you busy for quite a while, and it will give you a pretty good toolbox from which to draw forth the particular sounds you're looking for.

[aiwass]

Learn all the modes, I.E., the major scale started from every note. That makes for seven scales, or MODES. Knowing these, you can play runs up and down the whole fretboard, since you know all the positions.

[msinia]

okey thanks a lot guys that's something that'll keep me busy this summer, but i think i'll try to know the pentatonic scale even better cause i been only playing for 2 years and a half.

Thanks again,

[aiwass]

I learned all the modes around that time (two years of playing). If you do that early, you'll know all of 'em, and then you can take the time when it comes to getting your fingers to play them better.

[msinia]

and how much time have u been playing now??

How much time has it taken to you to succesfully improvise a good rock solo whenever u want to?

[aiwass]

Almost 5 years.

[TheDirt]

I've been playing for three years now, and me and my two friends who play bass and drums can go up on stage, quickly whisper a key and maybe a few chords and can improvise whole songs (we play instrumental). Crowds can't tell that we're making it up as we go along. Luckily, I started learning scales right when I started playing.

[aiwass]

Surprisingly, that's one of the easiest things you can do after you know modes. Since all the notes are within the scale, it automatically sounds "right", since it's in key. A more challenging thing i once did (about a year ago) was go onstage with an amzing drummer, and improvise a whole composition, going through movements in tempo, key and style. Since I was the only melodic instrument, I could create freely upon the foundation the drummer laid down, but the coolest was my freedom to rapidly change keys and modulate in half-steps. Also, I didn't have to be afraid about using "outside" notes, which is often harder with a melodic backing.

[TheDirt]

That sounds like it was awesome! Would it have been recorded, by any chance? Perhaps you could post a clip.

[aiwass]

It was recorded on video. Unfortunately, the drummer (who moved to another continent) has it.

[TheDirt]

Can I have his phone number? I'm pretty sure my cell pone has freee long distance :)

[msinia]

ok now let's say i've learned all the modes figures and stuff. How can i know in a song or piece if i can use a mode to improviste?

I mean if there's this guy for example playing something in a minor could i use a mode?

Thanks

[SLY]

Originally posted by msinia
ok now let's say i've learned all the modes figures and stuff. How can i know in a song or piece if i can use a mode to improviste?

I mean if there's this guy for example playing something in a minor could i use a mode?

Thanks


If you learn them you'll know... The mode or scale you're using
mainly depends on the chord progression .

[aiwass]

Ok, if the song is in, for instance, E minor (the most common key for guitar music), then you can solo with G ionian, A dorian, B phrygian, C lydian, D mixolydian, E aeolian, and F# phrygian. These are all in reality the same scale. If you refer to modes as positions, you will be less confused. You're just starting the scale on different notes.

[msinia]

Ok i've been reading some stuff on the site but have ended up confused. Normally on a song for example, you use all root notes for one mode, or you use 1 root note for every mode? Hope i'm clear enough. In both ways you end up getting 7 scales or positions but i don't what you usually have to do.


Thanks in advance,

[SLY]

Originally posted by msinia
Normally on a song for example, you use all root notes for one mode, or you use 1 root note for every mode? Hope i'm clear enough.

Actualy I didn't get what you mean, but anyway here's how modes work...

Let's say we have a Cmajor scale (for the ease of learning you should start with Cmaj since there ain't no sharps or flats).

The notes are C D E F G A B [c] ... That's called the Ionian mode or the major scale (key) , starting with C and ending with a C, that's the root note of t ..
How about playing the same notes (without inserting any sharps or flats) , but starting and ending with the second note of the major key which is D in this case... That's the D dorian mode (D E F G A B C [d]) .. you've just changed the root note into D.

Play the same notes starting from the E (3rd note) , you get an E phrygian... got it?

Here's how they relate to the major key:
=============================

1st Ionian
2nd Dorian
3rd Phrygian
4th Lydian
5th Mixolydian
6th Aeolian
7th Locrian


Do the same thing with other keys...

I didn't want to make it a longer post, so I hope this is clear enough...

[Edited by SLY on 01-13-2003 at 06:22 AM]

[canuck7]

you can make some pretty damn good stuff with the pentatonic scales. i'm trying to learn modes with varying success and the pentatonic scales come very easily. you can burn up the fretboard with them and you can make some melodic stuff with it too. i love the pentatonic scales, but i want to learn modes to get a deeper understanding of the music and get some more possible material.
ah well, it's all good.

[aiwass]

Pentatonic scales are modes with some of the notes taken out. I prefer to have more notes at hand.

[msinia]

Originally posted by SLY
Originally posted by msinia
Normally on a song for example, you use all root notes for one mode, or you use 1 root note for every mode? Hope i'm clear enough.

Actualy I didn't get what you mean, but anyway here's how modes work...

Let's say we have a Cmajor scale (for the ease of learning you should start with Cmaj since there ain't no sharps or flats).

The notes are C D E F G A B [c] ... That's called the Ionian mode or the major scale (key) , starting with C and ending with a C, that's the root note of t ..
How about playing the same notes (without inserting any sharps or flats) , but starting and ending with the second note of the major key which is D in this case... That's the D dorian mode (D E F G A B C [d]) .. you've just changed the root note into D.

Play the same notes starting from the E (3rd note) , you get an E phrygian... got it?

Here's how they relate to the major key:
=============================

1st Ionian
2nd Dorian
3rd Phrygian
4th Lydian
5th Mixolydian
6th Aeolian
7th Locrian


Do the same thing with other keys...

I didn't want to make it a longer post, so I hope this is clear enough...

[Edited by SLY on 01-13-2003 at 06:22 AM]


yeah i totally understand how that works. But here is my doubt.

Each mode lets say as the one you used E Phrygian for example has drawings as the pentatonic scale? How many? 5 too?

Thanks in advance,


P.D: Listening to for the love of god as i'm writing this... man, Vai is really wicked.

[msinia]

Originally posted by aiwass
Pentatonic scales are modes with some of the notes taken out. I prefer to have more notes at hand.

yeah i prefer that too... in a pentatonic scale you don't have note ranges of half steps right? The only way is to combine the major and minor pentatonic to get that right??
Thanks

[TheDirt]

msinia, I'm assuming by "drawings" you mean scale patterns. The 5 scale patterns of the pentatonic scale are not the only scale patterns for the pentatonic scale, they are just the most common.

As for the modes, they each have one common 6th string root, but disregarding the root, there are 7 scale patterns per mode, but they are common to each mode, so in essence, the modes have only 7 scale patterns total.

The number of 6th string root patterns for any given scale is usually the same as the number of notes within the given scale... Notice that pentatonic scale has 5 notes, and 5 patterns, the modes have 7 notes and 7 patterns.

[msinia]

Originally posted by TheDirt
msinia, I'm assuming by "drawings" you mean scale patterns. The 5 scale patterns of the pentatonic scale are not the only scale patterns for the pentatonic scale, they are just the most common.

As for the modes, they each have one common 6th string root, but disregarding the root, there are 7 scale patterns per mode, but they are common to each mode, so in essence, the modes have only 7 scale patterns total.

The number of 6th string root patterns for any given scale is usually the same as the number of notes within the given scale... Notice that pentatonic scale has 5 notes, and 5 patterns, the modes have 7 notes and 7 patterns.

yeah i mean patterns, im used to calling them that here in Argentina.
But what i still don't understand is what exactly the concept of mode is. I mean, does E Phrigian have 7 patterns?

[TheDirt]

E Phyrgian has as many patterns as you can think of ways to play it.

You could play it like this

|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------12-14-|
|---------12-14-15-------|
|12-13-15----------------|

or this...

|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|---------------10-12-14-|
|------10-12-14----------|
|12-13-------------------|

or this...

|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|-------------------9----|
|-----------9-10-12------|
|---8-10-12--------------|
|12----------------------|

You could incorporate slides...

|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------14-15-17/19-|
|12-13-15/17-------------|

or up a single string...

|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|0-1-3-5-7-8-10-12-------|

See what I mean? The possibilities are endless. However, the main 7 patterns to play modes are 6th string root patterns which are named so that, when played from the 6th string root up to its octave, you get a certain mode. i.e. - the Ionian pattern is such

|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------------------|
|------------4-5---------|
|------3-5-7-------------|
|3-5-7-------------------|

This is the pattern to create an Ionian scale from whatever root note you start on, which in this case is G Ionian, BUT, depending on the chords you're playing over, this could be viewed as perhaps an E Aeolian scale starting and ending on the 3rd note.

If you're playing over a recording that's banging out a G major chord every quarter note, this is going to ound like G Ionian, but if you're playing over a recording that's banging out an E Minor chord every beat, it'll sound like E Aoelian... Modes are all in the chords...

That make sense?

[msinia]

So using a mode means using the 7 notes it's made of?

[SLY]

Originally posted by msinia
So using a mode means using the 7 notes it's made of?

That's right... But you can always include some accidentals & stuff... Be creative !



And yeah, Vai is definitly the wickiest of all the wicked . ;)

[msinia]

Thanks im starting to get the hang of this.
How do you actually improvise fluently without so defined patterns as with the pentatonic?

Thanks again,

[aiwass]

Use your ears.

[TheDirt]

As aiwass was saying, use your ears. Take a simple jam pattern, perhaps moderately paced arpeggios with Fm, Bbm, Cm, Fm. Play this into a recorder for a few minutes, or program it into GuitarPro or a similar program and set to loop infinitely.

Now, pick a position, say 8th position (i.e.-play with notes using your index finger on the 8th fret, your middle finger on the 9th fret, ring on 10, and pinky on 11)

Start this recording, and keeping your fingers in this position, just play notes. DO NOT think about any patterns, just listen to how the note you hit interacts with the chord. Record yourself doing this. After a while you'll start developing licks.

After this, listen to the recording. If you find a cool lick, do some analyzation on it. Perhaps you did this... (copy and paste into Notepad to see tab)

Fm Bbm
|----------------|---------------|
|----------------|---------------|
|----------------|---------------|
|-----10h11p10/8-|-10~----8~-----|
|-8~-------------|---------------|
|----------------|---------------|

Well, at the time you weren't think about what you were playing, but now pick this lick apart. Notice that you ARE playing in a pattern, a 5th string root Aeolian pattern, but not because you were thinking about it, but rather instinctively. Your ear led you to do so. Notice that you started on the root of the F Minor and then made a jump of a perfect fifth with a little hammer on, pull off, slide from C to Db back to C and down to Bb which is the 5th, 6th, 5th, and 4th in respect to the F Minor chord. On the second chord, Bb Minor, you play a C, Bb Minor's ninth, then resolved it to the root.

Important notes on lick - leap of a 5th, resolution from 9th to root.

So playing with just your ear, you can come up with licks that you normally wouldn't think of. I mean, how often do you sit down and think... "ok, I'm playing lead over an F Minor chord, so I'm going to start on the root, go up a 5th, hammer on to the 6th, pull off back to the 5th, go down to the fourth in anticipation of the next chord, but play the 9th when the chord is actually struck for added tension, but I'll resolve it to the root." Playing with your ear rather than thinking about what you're playing is "playing from the heart", which is the cute little phrase for playing using the subconscious rather than the conscious.

[msinia]

Thanks a lot to everyone this has really helped me a lot.
At what age have you guys started playing? How much years do you know have as a guitarrist?

[aiwass]

Started playing at age 10 1/2. Now I'm 15 1/2. So that's 5 years.

[SLY]

Been playing for 6 years now .... Started when I was 14 , I'm now 20.

[JOHN JAUNESE]

I once read that the pentatonic scale was "the native tonality of children".

Children of the seventeenth century were weened from pentatonic to diatonic very carefully so they are able to grasp the concepts of music.
The use of the pentatonic scale also gave the students confidence.

The following was written on, or around 1910 by Carl Orff

"After all, it's very difficult to improvise, and sound bad when the only notes available are those in the pentatonic scale"

........and blues players say they "PLAY WITH FEELING!"
I think we may have uncovered a "BLUES" false-hood here.
Sorry -Clapton, and the rest-

As if we needed any proof,
JJJ

[Edited by JOHN JAUNESE on 01-16-2003 at 05:25 AM]

[JOHN JAUNESE]

actually I use the Pentatonic scale all the time, I just like poking fun at Blues players once in a while. But history shows us how inferior this scale really is. Sorry if I offended anyone for more than a minute for a minute or two.

JJJ

[aiwass]

I prefer using the pentatonic scale as a pattern within the modes, rather than a scale on its own.