Stuck in the "BOX" need some help

[Nerbaneth]

I've been stuck in the box for a while now and i want to learn some new scales but the pentatonic just feels so natrual. is it because i am used to it, or are the other scales out there just not feel right. Let me know which scales feel right to you.

[SLY]

If you like the pentatonic minor & blues box, you'd probably like Aeolian (Natural Minor) & Phrygian modes of the major scale.

E minor (Aeolian) : E F# G A B C D [E]
A minor (Aeolian) : A B C D E F G [A]
E phrygian : E F G A B C D [E]

Go up and down the fretboards with the same patterns to change the root of the scale (mode).

You should learn the major scales and how to make modes and chord progressions out of them.

[Seiko_Hejiro]

Dude,

SLY is totally right, learn the basic major and minor scales. Learn the relative major minor keys. Seriously the basic pentatonics are based off of these and only add a couple more notes to memorize the positions on. Modes is a whole other musical theory thing to concern yourself with but it's worht it to know. If you want to get unboxed experiment with keys and stuff. Learn new things. Play off the top fo your head. or think some new stuff up. All it takes is effort to break your old habbits.

Hope that helps any.

[griphon2]

This may prove helpfull. There is much work involved. With honest dedication, this should not take long to be functional.
Modes

I have a different, but functional way at looking, or more importantly, playing and hearing modes.

First, there are only five basic chord forms on the guitar. Modes are quickly found by understanding intervals and intervals within those chord forms and thoroughly knowing how to play major scales. Also, two ways to alter them, simply. (works great in terms of pentatonic.)

Second, to make this system work, thorough knowledge of playing major scales is paramount.
Berklee series shows all 7 forms of major scales for the guitar. Quickly speaking, to alter any major scale is to lower the third (b3) or raise the fifth (#5). A very fast way to learn harmonic and melodic minors. Both versions of pentatonic, major and minor. (5 forms) (really the same thing, just point of view.)

Third, the trick. I don't much care about whether it's per key, per chord or cycle, I am after the
sound.

Play a major scale from:

Ionian - Root (for G play Gmaj scale) I

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Phyrgian -m6 above the root (M3 below the root) (for G play Ebmaj scale) iii

Lydian -5th above the root (for G play Dmaj scale) IV

Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V

Aeolian - m3 above the root (M6 below the root) (for G play Bbmaj scale) vi

Locrian -1/2 step above the root (for G play Abmaj scale) vii


This system will expand everyone's musical ability, regardless of genre, blues, country, rock, jazz or pop. There will be a certain amount of practicing. Jamming helps. Using this system is great for creating new and/or personal licks. If one is a pentatonic player, it's a great way to visualize the guitar and expand your playing. This system is so ingrained into my psyche, I know longer think or even know I am using it.

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2


Play a major scale from:

Ionian - Root (for G play Gmaj scale) I

Dorian - b7 or whole step down from root (for G play Fmaj scale) ii

Phyrgian -m6 above the root (M3 below the root) (for G play Ebmaj scale) iii

Lydian -5th above the root (for G play Dmaj scale) IV

Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V

Aeolian - m3 above the root (M6 below the root) (for G play Bbmaj scale) vi

Locrian -1/2 step above the root (for G play Abmaj scale) vii


Good explaination on the tonalities of scales and how they relate. I'm following you on what your saying, but I don't see where practicing one scale is gonna help learn another scales meaning. I'm going to take the Mixolydian as an example. So to play a G mixolydian scale, you can play a C Major scale. Now they are the same notes, but the root is different. The root is the most important note in a scale, so that may cause confusion. When you wanna practice a scale, I think your should start on the lowest root note and work your way up to the highest root note, then back down. So you would be learning the C major scale, not the G mixolydian?? The root is what makes a scale, your understanding and how it works with the music. So G should be undertsood as the root, not C. I do see where your coming from, but you could be missing a valuable thing, the understanding of the root of those modes.

[griphon2]

"I can never swallow your false ideals of a lifeless happy ending"

What this means, I have no idea. I've not made a dime on this logic. As a matter of fact, I would bet I am poorer than you. It does not matter to me whether you trust me or not. Just DO what I am telling you. I frankly, don't need this hatefullness. You either want to see new, or you don't.
I'm sorry that work is hard. But...
Tom

[griphon2]

Get rid of this logic. Root note, etc. You're stuck. My idea is sound. Forget about theory, or whatever you've been told, sort of. Play buddy. Take the knowledge you have acquired, and RUN! Do the work.

[griphon2]

I'd hate to see very simple logic be ignored.
I hope this forum is not wasted.

[noticingthemistake]

WOW! I think you need some anger management classes, griphon2. And the fact that you take pride in being poorer than me, what the heck does that have to do with anything. I don't know what I said to tick you off, I just didn't get how learning a different scale is gonna help learn a completely different scale based on what you said. I will explain. As for bringing up my quote, again whats that have to do anything?? If you don't want hatefulness then learn to control yourself. This thread is for people to talk about music theory, not how much poorer you are or you must do what I say.

I'm sorry to inform you on your new idea, but modes consist in all scales. And they all coincide with other scales. So what you said is not new. Like the A minor scale has the same notes as the C major scale. But your not learning the A minor scale by playing the C major scale. The tonalities are different. They are called two different scales for that reason.

Play these and you'll see.
C maj
E:---------------------------------
B:---------------------------------
G:------------2-4-5-4-2------------
D:------2-3-5-----------5-3-2------
A:--3-5-----------------------5-3--
E:---------------------------------

Now play the A minor
E:---------------------------------
B:---------------------------------
G:--------------0-2-0--------------
D:--------0-2-3-------3-2-0--------
A:--0-2-3-------------------3-2-0--
E:---------------------------------

Play the G mixolydian
E:---------------------------------
B:---------------------------------
G:---------------------------------
D:------------2-3-5-3-2------------
A:------2-3-5-----------5-3-2------
E:--3-5-----------------------5-3--

Now if you played them, you could hear a slight difference in the way the notes relate. Especially when you played up to the root and back down, that root note sticks out. When you move though each, the difference is the tonality. Although they all have the same notes, the tonal center is different. So you would be learning the scale based on what the tonal center was. Your ear is the judge, jury and executioner in every musical endevour. When playing scales, your ear will grasp more onto the tonal center than any other note in the scale. So your only confusing yourself. Although it may work in the end it's a longer process.

[noticingthemistake]

You can learn all the modes in one day. Here's an easy way to learn modes.

Step 1: Start with a C major scale (Ionian).

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-4-5--
D:------2-3-5--------
A:--3-5--------------
E:-------------------

Step 2: Now flat the 7th note and you have the C mixolydian.

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-3-5--
D:------2-3-5--------
A:--3-5--------------
E:-------------------

Play the Mixolydian scale, but now flat the 3rd. Now you got C Dorian.

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-3-5--
D:--------3-5--------
A:--3-5-6------------
E:-------------------

Play that scale again but this time flat the 6th note, and now you have the C minor scale (Aelion).

E:---------------------
B:---------------------
G:--------------3-5----
D:--------3-5-6--------
A:--3-5-6--------------
E:---------------------

Repeat... this time flatten the second note, now you have the C Phrygian scale.

E:---------------------
B:---------------------
G:--------------3-5----
D:--------3-5-6--------
A:--3-4-6--------------
E:---------------------

Repeat... now flatten the fifth note, now you have the C Locrian scale.

E:---------------------
B:---------------------
G:--------------3-5----
D:--------3-4-6--------
A:--3-4-6--------------
E:---------------------

Last, go back and play the C major scale again. This time raise the fourth note up one fret and you will have the C Lydian scale.

E:-------------------
B:-------------------
G:------------2-4-5--
D:------2-4-5--------
A:--3-5--------------
E:-------------------

There's all your modes learned step by step. There are also other modals scales like spanish phrygain, and dorian b2 which will fit in this step-by-step process but I have choosen to leave them out, due to the fact that you should learn the major/minor modals first.

Also, I forgot to meantion one very important thing. When going through these scales. Listen for the note that has has been altered from the previous scale.

Example. Play the C mixolydian scale and listen to the B flat, then play the C major scale and listen how the B flat is now a B natural. Then go back and play the C mixolydian scale again. See how the scale sounds different from altering just one note. Repeat this process all the way up to the last mode.

This will help you gradually understand how each scale sounds different. If you run through them all really fast, they all sound sort of the same. Just take some time to listen closely to how the gradually alter one note at a time. Soon you'll learn them all by the way they sound in no time.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-08-2003 at 11:17 PM]

[noticingthemistake]

Originally posted by griphon2
Get rid of this logic. Root note, etc. You're stuck. My idea is sound. Forget about theory, or whatever you've been told, sort of. Play buddy. Take the knowledge you have acquired, and RUN! Do the work.

Ok, griphon. I'll explain why your "easy logic" is so much harder to learn. First, I hope you understand when you play a scale, you start with the root. That is how it is understood! If your still unaware of this, I'll show you why in a few.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, the idea of learning the C major scale is the same as the G Mixolydian? Because they have the same notes right? Does this mean if you know the C major scale, you also know D dorian, E phyrgian??? NO!!! You have to learn those individually cause they are DIFFERENT SCALES. Here's how screwed up your idea is. First of all, if you are starting with a different note in any scale, you are playing that scales mode. So by playing the C major scale, you learn the G mixolydian. NO! You just learned the Mode of the G mixolydian scale, which is a mode to begin with. So your just learned a mode of a mode which makes no sense, and it only throws you for a loop back to figuring out the G mixolydian scale. WHICH IS WHERE YOU WANTED TO START IN THE FIRST PLACE! I'll explain.

Originally posted by griphon2
Mixolydian - 4th above the root (for G play Cmaj scale) V


With saying it this way and doing it this way. Although it is correct in a way, all you did was reverse the process of what modes are. *A mode is nothing more than playing a scale but your starting with a note other than the root. So with your way, Play the C major scale to learn the G mixolydian scale. Your still gonna have to start with the G, so you just made the process LONGER!!!!! Like I wrote at the end of the previous paragraph. Why not say play the C major scale but start with the G, and you will have the G mixolydian scale. This is more sound, makes more sense, and is a much faster process *2! Getting it??

Unless you start a scale on a note other than the root? You would be the only one, because your going back into the modal scales again. Looping endlessly. WHEN YOU PLAY A UNDERSTOOD SCALE YOU START WILL THE ROOT!!! Scales are based on interval patterns starting with the Root Note! I hope your getting this now. And when someone asks you to play a G mixolydian scale, you dont play the C major scale. Unless you want to be taking for an idiot!

Do it your way Griphon. If it works for you, thats great. But to a beginner who wants to understand modes, or to someone who is just looking for info. Your concept can become very confusing to them. It's almost like your saying there is no need for modes, cause the C major scale has the same notes as the D dorian scale. So in the end, why even have the D dorian?? This won't help anyone who is trying to learn about modes. Your idea of tonalities is good, but not the explanation of modes.

Footnotes:
* There is more to this definition, but it doesn't mean anything to this discussion. And what I mean by root is C to the C major scale (also C Ionain).

*2 I still don't advice this way, because the first thing your thinking of is the C major scale. When you want to be thinking of the G mixolydian scale first and only. Learn each scale individually, like you learned the major and minor scales. It's easier when you need to pull them out and takes less brain power.

[SLY]

Hey fellas, Calm down... These kinda forums are just to chat friendly, have some fun & benefit from each other's knowledges & experience... That's all, it's not for challenging each other about who knows more about scales & chords.

You guys shouldn't take it so hard.

Peace. :)

[noticingthemistake]

Ahh.. I'm cool SLY. :) I'm actually trying to make this a discussion to understand griphon. Since I didn't agree with how his idea works, he got p*st. I'm trying to talk to him and explain to him that I don't see how his idea is "the easy way of modes". If I'm wrong (which he's gotta prove), then I would learn something new. If I'm right then maybe he will learn something. It's still a friendly debate from my point of view. I think it will benefit both of us, and maybe others.

[griphon2]

I'll admit, my reaction was poor. I profusely apologize.

Modes are not used in the Classical sense. Modes are used in a functional sense in todays modern music. Music theory can get in the way of actual sound. To better understand my logic is to deconstruct in terms of function, not modes. The presentation of modes is classical, but not functional in terms of modern music. Understand the intervals, the physics or the theory doesn't say anything to the playing or listening. Understanding modes in terms of function will improve the ear. Which is what music is about. Theory can be an inhibitor. Music physics is a wonderful cerebral subject, but it doesn't make a salary unless you are already tenured. The system I espouse will improve playing.
Understanding why or how it works is a latter and later contemplation.
Simply put, a D7b9, a pentultimate, has a variety of options.
It could be approached modally or chordally, even worse, simply. But still, in terms of function. I rarely play these modes from the root. More often, I play from 3rd, 7th or extension. Bass players play root, especially when needed. It gives a modicum of freedom. Love your bass players, they can save you when you're wrong.
The initial request was to get out of the box. To be honest,
play a G and run through the system and hear what occurs.
You will see function. Modal writing in reality, is quite rare.
I am extremely sorry to cause such a fuss.
Please forgive me of my errant way and response.

[noticingthemistake]

Griphon2, I also apologize on my behalf, and I couldn't agree with you more on your last post. It was a very good written understanding of modes and what role they play in modern music. I also believe that music theory, when used incorrectly, can hinder any musical endeavor. It's music theory not music fact. The science of music theory is based on the understanding of music science, not a path to write better songs. I think it's sometimes taken that way too. When used correctly to understand the science, It will broaden the horizon from which you build on your musical creativity. The better you understand something, the more use your going to be able to get out of it.

I noticed this when I would jam with other guitarists; they would always come up with stuff in Major or Minor keys. I'd ask them what scales they knew, and they would only know those two (except pentatonic which is still based on major/minor scales). It doesn't say their not good guitarists, but their music output was very limited. Next, I would play something and if it wasn't in those keys, they had a hard time putting something to it cause they were searching for the notes. Or they would come up with something very blandish, cause they only used major and minor scales. The inner ear works on how much it knows, if you have never heard a Locrian mode or practiced it. You probably won't think up something in that mode, cause you don't know it. Everything else is very hazy and clouded, although the idea is there is not concrete. You will always dominantly hear ideas in the keys/scales/modes that you know. The more you know, the more you can do! Knowledge is power, and the ear is based on your knowledge!

I believe understanding should come first especially when learning scales. Understanding gives you a nice foundation to use what you have newly acquired. Without it, it's just another pattern of notes, and how is that going to help you? I also believe you should start with the root when learning a scale. For learning and understanding the scale, the root gives you a solid foundation to build knowledge on. That why it's called the root. Later when you incorporate them into your music, you probably will never start with the root. If you’re learning a mode like the Locrian, watch starting on the 7th. You’re only playing the minor scale again!

Now as you said, a D7b9 can be approached modally. An understanding of which modal scales work nicely with the chord will give you a nice solid base to stand with. This is where theory is a benefit, especially when coupled will good ear training. The chord D7b9 contains the notes D, F#, A, C, and Eb. Two different scales work nicely over that chord. When I mean nicely, I mean they contain the tones that sound pleasant to the ear relative to that chord. One scale is the Spanish Phrygian scale, and the other is the Lydian Dominant Scale. The first scale contains the notes D, Eb, F#, G, A, Bb, C, and the second contains D, E, F#, G#, A, B, C. Together the notes are D, Eb, E, F#, G, G#, A, Bb, B, C. The only notes left out are the F and C# which would change the initial spelling to a Dmaj7b5. Unless this is what you first intended to have there, these notes are excluded and rarely brought back to give a discordant sound. The reason is the F falls in between the notes E, and F#. So you would have E, F, F#, and G boxed in the chordal sound, which is very discordant. Same with the C# that falls in between C and D. So you get C, C#, D, and Eb boxed together, not very pleasant sounding. If this is what you were looking for, this understanding helps that much. Next is which one to choose to play. There is no choosing!! Now if you know how each scale sounds, and you've learned them. Your inner ear will involuntarily choose the one it wants, cause it knows how each tone will interact with the sound. The melody you want to play will fall into one of these scales (modes), maybe both at separate points. The benefit is you will know where to start because your understanding is solid. Knowing all the scales possible gives you every angle to approach music. The base of music theory is understanding.

Modal composition is extremely rare as Griphon said. You may find it though, mostly in guitar solos. Especially metal, since metal solos are based on the art of Fugue. Want to learn how modes sound and how to use them, listen to and analyze Bach's music.

[griphon2]

Makes sense to me.
For D7b9, your solutions were melodic and harmonic minor scales. It's an awful lot of information for the average player to digest. To me, the guitar is extremely visual.
Assuming the change is at the 5th fret, quickly or at a jam, I'd just play an Eb major scale within the context of the change. I've been doing this for a long time. It fits well within maj or min pentatonic, depending on which pentatonic one learns first. It's a fun way to learn scales, modes and the like. It was the easiest way for me to learn all of this stuff so long ago. This method that I employ is just a quick way for a pentatonic player to get started on something new with some sort of control, and hopefully alleviate boredom. This is not easy for the average player to grasp. This system worked great for me.

[noticingthemistake]

That’s cool man. Whatever works, works! It is a lot of info for a beginner to take in, especially complex chords that don’t fit within the basic major or minor keys. Even harder when it comes to the theoretic views on how to harmonize them. I guess you have to want to learn that kind of stuff. It takes practice and more of an intermediate guitarist to obtain effective use of it.

[griphon2]

Only to amend what has been said. Working strickly from pentatonics, whether major or minor, the system will work
extremely well. Pentatonics are only slightly extended arpeggios. Most pentatonic players learn to modify these scales through trial and error and/or help. This system will work even with all of this. It's like superimposing or using an overlay above a chord... or change (same meaning).
Many tunes do not stay in one key. They're called tonal centers. The system I espouse will get one through tonal centers, even with pentatonics, if the scales are learned thoroughly... only 5.
This system is a system for guitar players, that boils jazz, rock, pop and country into a few short pages. And it always works. This system will appear in many different ways depending upon curricula, but this is it in a nutshell.

[griphon2]

I am, pretty much, a chordal or tonal center player. In all that possibility. I,i or V. (there are a few curves within that notion.) But basically, that's it. I use modes as a function of harmony. The lawyer, or doctor may not know what I am doing, but I do. I wish I could charge what they do. Without creative people, they are as boring as this message.

[noticingthemistake]

I tried your system and I believe it does work if one thing is understood. Playing a C major scale from the root C, isnt playing or learning the G mixolydian. For one who already knows the major and minor scales, and is looking for a easy way to find the modes. It is a good way to find the notes of the G mixolydian scale (mode) on the fretboard by playing th C major scale. How Pentatonics relate to this, I am still not seeing. I dunno. To me, Pentatonics are just five note scales that work well with the root you are harmonizing over. Without writting too much about them. Penta 'means five' and tonic 'means root'.

I use modes, more than I think most people, as harmonizing certain chords and also as a transport scale to get from one key to the next. Since some chords don't modulate natural with other scales, I'll use a mode. An example is a diminished chord, there is only one in each major or minor key so you can't modulate naturally between keys. I'll bring in a mode to accomplish this. The easiest example is the Locrian mode, since it contains the formula 1, b3, b5. The formula of a diminished chord. So if I end a locrian scale run on the root, I can start the new key on that diminshed chord. Starting a chord progression on the diminished chord is a good way to build an outro.

[griphon2]

I'll try to easily explain the evolution of my system's logic.
Start with a G bar chord (3rd fret) Overlay or envision a
G maj pentatonic and a G min pentatonic, together. (guitar fretboard view) You'll note that what arises is a modified G dorian mode with a #4 or #11, depending on your view. If one plays a F maj scale or a major scale from the 7th of G or any chord (or whole step below root), the same result occurs. Raising the 5th of any major scale gives you a backdoor harmonic minor. (dorian #11) Lowering the 3rd of any major scale gives you a backdoor melodic minor. If you ignore the rule of melodic minor, it's really a jazz melodic minor. (dorian b9)

I believe it's monumentally difficult to memorized modal scales by rote. Knowing only major scales (pentatonic scales help in terms of visualizing on guitar),knowing the two ways to alter a major scale shortens the learning time, incredibly. Most jazz players go after tensions, rather than modes. If you are after a modal sound for modal sound sake, one must follow a previous post. My system gives you an infinite amount improvisational possiblities very quickly.

If you are a pentatonic player, fuse the major and minor
pentatonic together. Even adding the blue note (b5). Learn them cold. They are modified major scales with the view of the above paragraph. Next learn major scales and then, within the system I propose. Learn them cold. Then learn the two ways to alter. This helps to go or get away from verifying root. This system will go after what makes the particular chord or tonal center you are playing over tick.
Hope this helps.

[noticingthemistake]

Ahhh...ok now I see what you were saying. That was a much better explanation for me. Thanx. I never looked at how they were that closely related. My way was just to start with a clean sheet when learning each scale, relating to me caused too much confusion. I never wanted to have to think of another scale to learn a new scale, even the relative minor and majors. I guess with a smooth transaction between scales, that works out nicely though. :)

Did you come up with that or did you learn it somewhere?

[griphon2]

Another way to look at this. Knowing what intervals look like on the guitar, will double the speed of learning these mechanics. (I don't know how to use the computer fretboards)
3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, etc., have the same look, regardless of where you are on the fretboard, e.g., the tritone has a look, 7ths, 6ths, etc. Fretted instruments of any form have this look. All other instruments must be learned by rote, to one degree or the other.

Play G bar chord.
Play the major scale a maj 3 below or m6 above the root of G or 1/2 step above the 5th.
That "is" your Phrygian mode. Or another way to say it, this is the scale that gives you G Phyrgian. Altering that scale, gives you the other variations. You can play an Eb scale or play an Eb scale from G. The sound is Spanish.

A F scale is the dorian scale. If you like, play a F scale from G.

A C scale is mixo for G. A 4th above G.

A D scale is lydian for G. A 5th above G or another way, it is the 5th of G. Play from G or from any note of the chord.
You could play a Bm7 arp using the notes of D maj scale in passing and it would still sound lydian. If you want to play lydian for G, play a D melodic minor or a D major with a flat 3rd from any note, you have your lydian b7#11 sound.(G7 altered)

So on and so forth...

Hope this helps a bit more.

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah. I got where you were coming from when you explained how you put to pentatonics together, and you get an altered scale. Alittle advanced I'd say, but it is a nice to see how it works out that way. I understand how every scale has modes, and coincidentally certain modes have modes of there own that make up another scales. It's all a matter of how many ways you can either alter and look at a simple major scale. Simply, and combination of 5-12 notes makes a scale. Anything less than 5 is consider a broken chord. Like the E pentatonic major, take out the 2nd degree and you have a broken Emaj6 chord. I have my great grandfathers manuscript from where he studied at the warsaw conservatory (academy where frederick chopin attended), and it's got endless amounts of music theory information. Although I wouldn't say there's much on pentatonics and how they come together like you said. There is quite a bit of information that I don't even see in other theory books. Just not much guitar related stuff, mostly classical theory and some contemporary ideas. That's why I come here. :)

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-13-2003 at 03:42 PM]

[griphon2]

The idea, method or system came about through teaching. When students got interested, I kept getting questions on how to get into Berklee or GIT. Also at the time, I couldn't read very well, or at all. I had to come up with something to pass the college courses, especially sight singing. Analyzing Renaissance, Bach, to Stockhausen makes one find a way and not to look too horribly dumb or stupid. And the luck of working with a truly kind and gifted group of people. Everyone has a view. Honest people have valid views. I had to find a way to understand, very fast. The trick and tricks came about just helping folks to get into school. Getting in is hard. Getting through can sometimes be more difficult. This gave most an edge. Just through the years, I've refined the method.
Pentatonics are amazing little tools, not just ours. To one degree or another, they are the vocal equivalents to any culture.

[griphon2]

Actually, an E maj 6/9 or a C#m11, depending on your view.
Arpeggio. Or an Em11 or G maj 6/9, depending on your view.
If you want a country sound or southern rock, the first works. If you want blues or most rock, the second works.
Overlayed or superimposed together, pretty much covers everything else in American music.

[griphon2]

Check out Pedereski (sp), can literally write a train wreck using traditional instruments.

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah its true that certain chords work better with certain music. Remember what you said before though, theory can get you in a trap. I think it's more important to look at what part those chords will play in your music, not just their sound. The 11th chord is most often an established Suspension chord, harmonically. When a sus4 is taken in a more melodical sense. A 11th chord is a suspension that will pull you in one direction, and the sus4 will want to pull you in another direction. Depending on where the music wants to go, what note it is replacing, and it's inversion.

The 6/9 works in a different way. They are harmonic chords because of the 6th degree, and sound sort of like 7th chords but that sound is replaced by the 9th. The seventh and 9th chords have the same dissonance tone in them, except one (7th) plays before the root, the other (9th)after. Always a M2 or m2 apart.

I would still keep the thought that those chords work will those types of music, which is correct. But don't excluded them based on that idea.

[griphon2]

That's the joy of todays music. Regardless, of what you do, it's right if you end properly. Bach proved that. Bach would love this world without his constrictions.

[noticingthemistake]

Yeah. It would be interesting to see what kind of music guys like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and other classical legends would come up with these days. I think they would have a hard time if weren't brought up in this time. They would still produce the same music, unless they heard stuff like rock, blues, funk, and metal. It would be a wild trip to see what that would do to alter their legendary perspective.

It's also another wild trip to think of what music would sound like without those guys. I always think about that. Sometimes it gets me think in the direction of creating my own style of music. If you were to envision what music would be like without the church establishment. Weird.

[noticingthemistake]

I think it was Bach, but they also say the first step is just as important. "Without the first note, there can not be any composition. Without the last note, the composistion can not be complete." ;)

[griphon2]

Here it is, very simple.
If you're in E,... E, A, B or all 7th'd, play all your blues licks. Which is, an E min pentatonic or a G maj pentatonic. It all depends on your point of view or maybe how or what you have learned first. (ironically modal)Playing either point of view will work, and SAFELY. Most all American music oriented guitar players START this way. The interest, mostly, is what is heard. Normally and upon reflection, E A B, depending on what you have heard thru life, you will play, pentatonically, an Eminor or G pentatonic, or Emaj/C#m pentatonic, depending on orientation. Beginning and intermediate guitar players,
mostly, play this way. They'll will do extensions, because their favourite guitar players do the same. The key is understanding the sound. Playing and/or learning positionally will make clear all pentatonic knowledge and logic.

If you are not a pentatonic player already, this will be hard to consume. Major and minor scales are simply modified pentatonics. Control is based on pents and musically determined by pents, especially in terms of more advanced music. They are, overall, very basic arpeggios. Knowing pents, saves a lot of work. They're the key to all American music's logic.
I hope this helps,

[griphon2]

From Van Halen, Dimeola, to Steve Morse and more great players, use this logic, directly or indirectly. If one buys anyones method, you will get, in a nutshell, the first email. This is what the great players play, more or less,
depending the player. Not one of the great players will deny it. The names change to protect the era to be ignored.

[griphon2]

I do my best to keep politics, religion, philosophy and all other phies or gies, out of my point of view. No matter what you think, say or do, the only point of view is yours or mine.(very Bolean, on or off, very philosphical) Life works a little easier from that preset. (an amp view)
One trys to make most to understand. It's not easy. Either way you are right or wrong, depending on point of view. One runs with it, regardless. One can't do ANYTHING without making a mistake. If you do nothing, you make no error. (or in itself is an error, but who knows or controls.)
The people that make no error, do nothing wrong. A point of view. It's all a point of view.
If anyone thinks, of all arts, music can't be controlled. Life, art or what we think tangible will always be an intangible, like no other art, but maybe language. So much irony.

[noticingthemistake]

Hey man. Since there is more of a chance of your logic on this matter getting lost because it's on the forum. You should either put it on the tricks page, or make your own page so more people will see it. That way you can plan a layout of step by step explaination alittle better. It's so scrambled on this thread that it is hard to comprehend. Put some sound files so they can listen to what your getting at.

(soloing) When playing pentatonics over a chord progression, I find better results when you play a E major pent over an E major chord, and an B major pent over a B major chord. You know what I'm getting at. It gives it a sense that the music is moving not staying in one place. Plus, sometimes tension can arise between notes. So this becomes an easy fix. Use extensions to move from one scale to the next.

Now when playing a little lick in a pentatonic. Better results are achieved when staying in the Tonic's pentatonic over a chord progression.

The situation will dictate what to do. Use your inner ear.

As you said, the 6/9 chord is the broken major pentatonic. The m11 chord is the minor pentatonic. Reverse your process and see what you can come up with. ;)

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-13-2003 at 10:52 PM]

[tallicafan]

hmm I thought I kinda knew what modes were supposed to be about but both of you kinda confused me in this thread. I always thought the best way to learn new modes was to take a major(ionian) scale for example the G ionian scale and then the A dorian. This way if you learned this everywhere on the neck and in all the other modes you would know all the notes in that key. If like you said (noticingthemistake) you learned the G ionian then G dorian,G mixo etc etc etc... if you used this in a song wouldn't you be playing out of key?? I'm kind of a beginner but I'd think the best way to get out of a box is to learn to "continue" that pattern on another place on the neck then you'd learn all the notes that are in the key on the fretoboard and would have no limits really. Am I totally off track here or what?

[noticingthemistake]

Sorry man. Didn't mean to throw you off. You got the right idea on how to learn modes. For most people making the transition from the major scale to learning the modes, your way is the simpliest. The only hold back I think it has is, by knowing the major scale already. You pretty much got the sound of a G major scale in your head. By going right to the A dorian, it's harder to grasp the uniqueness of the mode itself. It's the same notes, G major and A dorian. So although you may learn where they are on the fretboard, the sound is confused. Your ear still says the A dorian sounds like the G major.

The way I proposed builds both ear training of each mode, and how to play their pattern on the guitar. Without having to resort to the G major first. Which doubles the work. My explanation is not how to use them in a song, but how to learn them seperately. Going from C Ionian to C dorian to C mixolydian etc. etc. gradually builds on the uniqueness of each mode itself by altered one note at a time. Then listening closely to the altered note. Read that post again, I think you'll see what I was saying. This was how Bach was taught modes. In the end you are learning the pattern and the sound of each mode. Knowing the sound is the most important element to be a musician. A musician is a master of sound, not a master of patterns.

Hope this helps man.

[noticingthemistake]

Also, A Ionian (major) mode and a Dorian mode serve different purposes in music itself. SO it is best not to have those two confused in any way. They are 2 completely different scales. When playing a song in G major, then play the mode A dorian over it is still playing the G major scale. The dorian's mode most common purpose is jazz music, when you use alot of minor chords. It's harmonizes well over any minor chords, like m7, m11, and m13th's. The G major scale is for, well, major chords based in G.

Also, when learning modes the way I propose. Keep the root the same note going through all the modes. So if you start on C, play all the modes in C. You are learning that modes pattern and sound uniquely. NOT how it relates with the other scales.

[Edited by noticingthemistake on 01-13-2003 at 11:21 PM]

[tallicafan]

I see what you're getting at. So I guess your way makes you see the differences in sound while mine focuses more on how they fit together on the fretboard.

thanks. I still don't see what griphon was talking about. Maybe it's more for experts lol

thanks :D

[griphon2]

It's a time saver. Just looking at the guitar, one can determine what scale is needed.
To find a dorian play the ii chord of any key. From that chord gives you the actual dorian scale. The irony of modern music and today music, one can play a minor scale over a major chord or key. Apply this logic:
Dorian = a major scale one whole step below.
If your dorian root or note is G, your major scale or parent scale is F. A dorian would be G, Ab would be Gb, C would be Bb, and so forth. This logic eliminates the paper work or the constant construction or deconstruction of the rule of dorian. One has to do this 7 times for every major scale, 7 times for every harmonic minor scale, 7 times for every melodic minor scale. (21 X 12) This system helps to find the PARENT scale without extensive and tedious rote memory. It's visual. One can memorize in less than half the time. (the rule is about 30 seconds, the scales is the time one takes for the manual labor)
Hope this helps,

[griphon2]

I must amend.
The math in terms of work is staggering.
21 X 12 in just one position.
21 X 12 + 5 or 7 and or variations.
Melding into pentatonics 5 X 2 + 21 X 12 + 5... (it's actually greater or a bigger equation)

I'd hate to do this on paper. I discovered the other method, by doing it on paper. (before the first Apple)

Memorizing interval shapes, 5 basic chord forms,5 pentatonic shapes used two ways, 7 major scale shapes altered two more ways, my previous modes rule, covers just about every theoretical and mechanical item in todays music on guitar in a nutshell. I am not covering technique,
timing, etc., just very basic to extremely advanced music notes for guitar simply put. This information can be put to use, immediately. When in doubt, one can always just simply look at the guitar fretboard and find the correct answer.
The guitar looks the same, all over the instrument.
Be able to say out loud: A B C D E F G frontwards and backwards from any point, faster than your name. (hope it's not Ed or Ty) BC and EF (natural half step rule) are ALWAYS next to each other.
All other letters have a space or fret between them. The spaces are named going up in sound # sharp, going down b flat.
Standard chord progresstions, stated earlier, pretty much covers everything else. This is the system. Any person can take it in any direction wanted. From basic to advanced. It covers most if not all forms of music and guitar of today.

[noticingthemistake]

That is pretty advanced, and if your a beginner learning modes it is hard to grasp. I know it works and it can save time when finding the right mode to play. Learning is a different question. You can't just look at a Em chord and know you what mode to learn. It's could be E dorian, E phrygian, or E aeolion. Just an Em doesn't give you enough info, visual or aural. You would need to know what degree it is in the song's key and/or an extension. So if it's your first time tackling modes, it doesn't make much sense. To me and you yeah, cause we understand what is needed to make it work. Plus this isn't a visual forum so you can see it. That's why I say make a site about it, Griphon.

The thing is it's hard for a beginner. The way to get a complete understanding of everything in music is to what I would call cataloging a musical mind. This mean everything has it's own place which doesn't refer to other things. You learn a scale, you learn the scale by itself. Without having to compare and contrast it to something else. It's like library in your mind. When you look for a book, you shouldn't have to find three other books before you find the one your looking for. So you have all the scales in their own files, and as you learn more and more about each scale. You put more stuff in those files. You don't want a scarttered mind when it comes to music, you want everything to be organized in your mind.

About the 21 x 12 thing. Once you learn a mode and you know it's purpose and how it is made. You only have to learn that mode once. So your only learning 21 modes. Another thing, when you want to play G mixolydian, without thinking you should know the key would be C. There's nothing hard about figuring that out.

About all the other scales. You should COMPLETELY learn the Major/minor modes first, then move on the the harmonic minor and melodic minor ones later. Their modes are mostly altered scales, or scales that don't find much use in modern music anyways. Simply cause, very few songs are written in those scales. Another thing, you must know a great deal about theory before you can even use them to there purpose. As for Pentatonics, they have the same modes as the Major/minor scale with some notes taken out. If you know the major/minor modes already than the transition to learning the pentatonic ones is simple.

Once you learn how modes are formed, it's easy to figure them out on any scale. Even the exotic ones.

[griphon2]

I truly, honestly and simply do not wish to offend any one's method or point of view. This site is called guitartricks.
What I am saying, This is a Major Trick. From Brent Mason to Steve Vai, these people worked through this system, the hard way and their way. This is simply, an easier way to get their result, without spending tons of money, and added work. This "is" what they are doing, regardless of theory, technique or even point of view.

[noticingthemistake]

That's rad, dewd. I'm not saying your view is bad or anything of that sort, it's just what you have is hard for a beginner to comprehend. I wish you would stop taking it any other way. I'm trying to tell you something. :) You need to make a website about this. So you can illustrate chord diagrams, and whatever else is used to see through what you are saying. It's clearly something you can't completely understand and apply with just words.

Remember your probably going to be showing this to a beginner, or maybe an intermediate. People like me already have a system that works, so they will probably find less use of it. Sorry, but what I do works great for me, and it's probably the same for alot of people who have already learned these modes.

[griphon2]

I am sorry, profusely, sorry, I don't think that way.
It takes too much time. Time is a big deal to me, not only in music.

[griphon2]

I've wanted to do a theory web page. I simply don't understand how the computer mechanics work. Where are the fretboards? How can I use them in my context? The way "I" want. It's simply another guitar trick! It's a joke. Fretboards exist on the internet, how does one manipulate them? I just don't understand. How does this work? Help?

[griphon2]

Here's an example. Jay Leno, and Elton John playing (01.15.03) Saturday Night. How old is this. A simple
I bVII IV V progression. (in C) Let's beat simplicity to death. A very good exercise for practising is to turn the radio on and jam.

[chris mood]

Sorry I missed out on this debate, it looks like It was a good one. I've used both your approaches in the past and then decided to create one that satisfied my own needs, a system that uses triad shapes that enables you too improvise with all 12 tones at any given time, I call it the triad method. I spent about 5 years working it out on paper an utilizing it in my playing and teaching, I finally got around to putting it in a book format about a year ago but have been unsuccessfull in getting it published. All the publishing companies I've sent it out too were very impressed with it but said they probably wouldn't be able to market it and make any money, the sad thing is there probably right. Now if I would have called it the Learn To PLay Like Kirk Hammett Method that would have been a different story. Again, sorry I missed this debate.

[noticingthemistake]

Publish it on the internet Chris. I know it's probably alot of hard work since you would have to rewrite it again. But at least people will see it, and no publishing arse clown can turn you down. :) Personally I'd like to hear about it.

[chris mood]

Unfortunately my computer crashed about 2 months ago and along w/it went my book, I have 1 copy left from when I had them printed up to solicitate publishers. I wouldn't even know where to begin with publishing on the web, I'm not that computer savy. Plus it was a lot of work, tons of graphs and charts etc.., any way it was personally rewarding, I got a lot out of it and it has taking my playing to a level I'm extremely happy with. On to other things at the moment, finishing up a book on fingerstyle Beatle arrangements, hoping I'll have better luck getting this one published, it's a little more mainstream.

[griphon2]

I also use a triadic method and the system I earlier proposed. Once pentatonic players use the earlier method, triadic will give more control. There is a triadic method published long ago by George Van Eps, the father of this idea.

[chris mood]

Yeah, I am familiar w/that one, mine's a little different then that, the triads are more of a visual thing w/mine to identify where the chord tones exist inside of the scale fingerings. The improvisational theory behind it was based off what Charlie Parker did, using all 12 tones to create with. What I do is place a note within one of 3 catagories: A tones (chord tones R 3 5) B tones (diatonic scale tones other then the R 3 5) C tones (non diatonic tones, which I reffer to as approach tones)

[griphon2]

I sort'a do the same thing. This has become so old hat, I don't think about it any more. I've been retired for quite some time and the system I've learned so long ago, brings back a lot of stuff. I do excercises that I know are not in print. Not many, but pertinent to all forms of music. They are brain and physical mechanics oriented.