protecting your stuff

[Psycho Amram]

i'm not a well-known artist well, many here aren't (i guess) and i have some great stuff i would like to share with people like you, however:
i see a riff
i play it
it sounds cool
i feel happy i played a cool riff
almost nobody knows that riff
see the temptation??
why shouldn't i steal it? coz it would be stealing!
i know i wouldn't steal, how can i be sure nobody else does?
it's really hard to protect your stuff that way coz even if you had copyright how could you know if somebody from indonesia (for example, i have nothing against indonesians) is playing your stuff saying it's his and gets payed for it?
that is very important for me since i don't want my music tanted with money (see my signiture?)

[Azrael]

you could say you borrowed it... and after you had a milloin seller you give the riff back again *LOL*

[Incidents Happen]

you can modify it by JUST A TINT, like Vanilla Ice did! ;)

lol.

[Polera]

in actuallity, nothing is original but just modified over and over and over. Very few people come up with original riffs. They mostly spin offs over wriffs in combination with other riffs even though it might be unconscious that you actually understand this when composing. its much to the same effect as writing, check the bible, everystory ever written is essentially in there in a form or another...now where the bible on rock? :)

[Psycho Amram]

i once had a post complaining about that nothing i write is really original but i have some cool stuff (at least i think so) and you know how band always recycle their own material after a while most of their songs sound quite the same
i once heard a disc and haven't noticed that there were about 15 tracks instead of big long one track!

[Incidents Happen]

that stuff happens, alot more with live material and jamming though.

But did those 15 tracks sound good? I think thats the only real important thing...except that there wouldn't be much variety...

[Tele Master]

All I have to say is, I agree with Polera. Everything just get tweeked a bit and it sounds a bit different.

[Psycho Amram]

OK then why is there still copyright thing?
do you know the theory of "open source programming"?
it says that you shouldn't buy programs (games, windows, etc) coz programs can be modified and you can improve them so every program should be "open source" that is, the code is added to the program so anyone who has it can modify it, play with it, copy from it, and give it to others and that's the way programs evolve. of course he has to sign a contract that his program will be "open source" as well. thus there is no meaning for copyright over programs and they can be given free.

so why shouldn't we do the same with music: "open source playing"?
haven't you ever thought that one thing can sound better if you play it differently? give notes with your music and don't copyright it just anyone that buys it has to agree to do the same FREE MUSIC!
that can be great.

[kingdavid]

The song "Revolution" by Tracy Chapman is four chords over and over:
G C Em D.
I'm not very good in theory,and I may stand corrected,but this is the scale of G with it's relative minor.Suppose Tracy was the first person to ever write a song like that.As in a scale and it's relative minor.Then here comes another dude,called Eagle Eye Cherry,who decides to "steal" that major/relative minor idea,but starts his on C.And from that idea,he writes the song "Save Tonight".And tweedles a bit with the point where he starts singing,compared to Tracy.
Now,you tell me;
How different(read original) is "Revolution" from "Save Tonight"?As different as different can be.That makes Eagle original,right?I think it does.But hey,he copied an idea from Tracy!!He isn't original!!Originality is coming up with ideas!!New ideas!!Not taking someone else's and making it yours!!
The point I'm trying to make here is that what comes out of us depends a lot on what goes into us.And a lot,if not all,of what goes into us is other people's produce.We shouldn't judge originality by merely what absolutely new stuff(as in totallt unrelated to anything that ever existed) that one comes up with,but rather what one comes up with when they put together what they got.From themselves and other sources.
Like other people.A song they heard.A melody they heard a bird sing.Something they stumbled upon just fiddling with their instrument.Some source.
I'm sure Florence Nightingale was not the first person who figured out that if you clean a wound and tie it up and son on,it helps the wounded person.So how come she got so famous?Or Mother Theresa(sp?).Her's wasn't the pioneering charitable organisation.She didn't invent the idea of helping the needy.Any fool can think that.Again,so how come she became what she became.
The trick is not in what you "come up" with,but rather how you use what's been "comed up" with to come up with something yourself.
I can go on and on and on about these things,so I'll stop.
About "open source playing"(I like that term,btw):
It's already out there.
You didn't invent the scales,did you?Musical notations?That's as open source as open source can be.
And who's stopping you from playing "Stairway to Heaven"?If you want,play it!Just don't use it to as though it was your intellectual property.To make money,for instance.That would be no different than taking your neighbours car and using it as a Taxi,without your neighbours consent,or without giving your neighbour some form of return for using their car.Which I think is what copyright is all about.

[Slow Diver]

Sure that the usage of same chords is not stealing. For example there are hundreds of songs with the E G D A progression. Few examples are Alive by Pearl Jam, Man In The Box by Alice in Chains, Fly Away by Lenny Kravitz, and a whole bunch of Offspring songs.

[Psycho Amram]

when you publish a song it is not yours anymore. unlike a car this is non-materialistic property you can't hold it in your arms and say "it's mine". and that's what it's all about.

think about my idea as intelectual communism. "open source playing" is not about taking others' ideas is about sharing your ideas with others and in the ideas flow get new ideas. it's not about selling music so nobody else could sell it it's about not selling it in the first place. the only thing that keeps us from doing that is norms. i say break'em!

you can BUY a record hear a song, BUY it's notes (or get it's tab by yourself or the net but you're never sure it's corrct), play for yourself, play it with friends but not on stage. you can't copy the disc, you can't broadcast, play or rent it. you can't say "i think it would sound better if i chage this note" call it "Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin (modified by Psycho Amram)" and spred it. you can't share with the world your way of playing it.

[kingdavid]

Originally posted by Psycho Amram
...you can't share with the world your way of playing it.
I could be wrong,but I thought that that is what the tricks posted by people on this site is all about.
I mean,when you go to some club and hear a band doing a cover,isn't that "Stairway to heaven by led zep(edited by the polka dots)"?
About open source playing:
Who stops anybody from doing it?Who compels any artist to get their stuff copyrighted?Why doesn't anyone just release a song they wrote and tell the world "hey,I wrote that.Do as you please with it."?
The reason,IMHO is this:the process of availing your music to the masses(read distribution) is a business.And the concept of copyright is very fundamental to that business.
Very few people(if any) do anything just for the sake of it.Forget that "money isn't very important..."-or something to that effect-line.If you,Amran,wrote a bunch of songs,and played them in the club where your band has a gig,and some record company executeive happened to be around and offered you a deal on the strength of that bunch of songs,I tend to feel that if the deal was good(whatever your parameters of a good deal are),you'd sign up.And at that point the phrase "open source" wouldn't be within a mile's radius of your brain.
And that's what happens with everyone.
Try and listen to me when I talk about business.Is computer programming an end unto itself,business wise?I don't think so,coz people for instance use Linux on their computers to serve other purposes,like run a business,a website,etc.As in the programs(whether sold or sourced openly)are a tool in making money,in earning a living(which is what we're all trying to do).
How about music?Do people use music to do something else that earns them a dime?No.You pay to enter a club(or somehow spend money in there,it's all the same)where a band you like is playing,get entertained and go home.If some other dude was to "openly source" your bunch of songs and play them for people elsewhere,people wouldn't come to see you.Or at least their numbers would be reduced.They come to the place you're playing coz they've come to realise you kick butt.Your creativity is what pulls them to you.Makes them buy your records.And ultimately hear stories,teachings,pains,whatever.If listeners go elsewhere,you,the band,doesn't get paid.The music is the business.Which is why it's a bit of a problem to "openly avail" it.And when other people(be they musicians or even consumers) want to openly avail it to themselves anyhow,that's when copyright comes in.
I've seen many songwriting joint efforts on a couple of sites.There's probably some sites that were started purposely for this.Even poetry.And that there is "open source playing".But if you look around,my bet is that what you see or hear won't impress you.
Coz human beings are motivation driven.
Earning a living is a very huge motivator.
"Money isn't everything".
Yeah yeah.

[Edited by kingdavid on 12-13-2002 at 04:38 AM]

[SLY]

Playing some covers in clubs or even putting them on a CD of your own recordings is not stealing musical material , as long as you credit the original author and don't claim it's yours.
If anybody who makes music want it to be ONLY played by him that would be very SELFISH, bec he surely came out from playing covers & stuff.
No body finds himself an original songwriter all of a sudden, right?

Just as every body plays "Stairway to Heavens", "Little Wing" . They don't claim it's theirs cuz every body who heard the original version would notice.

Stealing musical material in my opinion is taking some riffs from various sources , play them with slight changes like probably changing the key or something, add new lyrics & claim this is your original writings.

[kingdavid]

Originally posted by SLY
Playing some covers in clubs or even putting them on a CD of your own recordings is not stealing musical material , as long as you credit the original author and don't claim it's yours...
...Stealing musical material in my opinion is taking some riffs from various sources , play them with slight changes like probably changing the key or something, add new lyrics & claim this is your original writings.
I dunno how the dictionary describes stealing,but the way I understand stealing,it's using something that doesn't belong to you to make some sort of gain without the owners consent.
If you do a remake of "Stairway to Heaven" and put it on your CD,I feel that it doesn't really matter that you acknowledge Led Zep on the CD,coz you're going to make money off something they wrote.And if you don't feel that the fact that they're the ones who wrote is such a big deal,why use their song at all?Why not use your own songs only?Why use a song written,arranged,recorded,produced and marketed by someone else(and these things cost money)?Their input has helped that song become what's it's become,and if that song wasn't what it is,you wouldn't bother using it.That input is what copyright seeks to protect.
I think.

[Psycho Amram]

Kingdavid you gave one of the best examples to make money without selling sings you preform. you get paid for the preformance not the songs.
and if anyone offers me a job i'll have to think about it a great deal cos you can't make a living out of music where i live... that's why i study...

[SLY]

Originally posted by kingdavid
I dunno how the dictionary describes stealing,but the way I understand stealing,it's using something that doesn't belong to you to make some sort of gain without the owners consent.
If you do a remake of "Stairway to Heaven" and put it on your CD,I feel that it doesn't really matter that you acknowledge Led Zep on the CD,coz you're going to make money off something they wrote.And if you don't feel that the fact that they're the ones who wrote is such a big deal,why use their song at all?Why not use your own songs only?Why use a song written,arranged,recorded,produced and marketed by someone else(and these things cost money)?Their input has helped that song become what's it's become,and if that song wasn't what it is,you wouldn't bother using it.That input is what copyright seeks to protect.
I think. [/B]


Well, we play covers bec every else body does, and I don't think it's bad, it's like a tribute to the bands we love and appreciate their work that made us play music.

Also all bands we cover made lots of covers to previous bands,like Led Zeppelin Covered "You shook me" , SRV covered "Little Wing" & "Voodoo Child" , GNR covered "Knocking on heavens door", G3 covered "Red House", etc.

This is a good habit, or else old music will die.
And Jimi Hendrix said : 'I want everybody to play my music' .

[Seiko_Hejiro]

Dudes,

Far as i know copyright law on music and recordings, once someone goes through the trouble to record a song and publish it, publish as in produce and sell a record to anyone person with their name on it with a copyright symbol it is theoretically copyrighted to them. However someone could come along to dispute this and if they have acutally shelled out money to pay for the copyrights to soem material that has been puiblished and sold they may have an easier time in court proving that they own it and have the rights to sell it.

As for making sure no one does what you do or plays what you play or if you are playing something that someone else already wrote just become musically aware in a few ways. If you play something that sounds cool remember your influences and which bands you have been listenting to lately, those usually influence how I write since it is music i like to listen to and play. I'm, sure the same is true for many people. The easiest way to get around this is just know which style you are shooting for and write something that sounds like if fits a specific genre. Otherwise be experimental and combine influences.

About this intellectual musical communism thing, that sounds like a bitchen idea, though theoretically anything can be good. Music theory is good for just about one thing engineering music. An on a count of technicallity it's probaly true that nothing you come up with in this day and age is original and new to the ears of people. The point here is to take what you know and make it into someting that sounds new, or is some variation that no one has ever heard. Look at the crap paparoach released some of it parrallels Iron maiden perfectly just cleare recording quality and a key change.

[kingdavid]

Originally posted by Psycho Amram
...you can't make a living out of music where i live... that's why i study...
No psycho(now,I like the sound of that,psycho:) )
I don't know where you live(it's not Saskatchewan,Canada,is it-hey,even in Kenya people know Saskatchewan is remote :D ),but you don't have to sell your music where you live.If and when you get to the level you can have an impact globally,where you from won't really matter.
I'm studying too(I believe in education),but I have real and serious ambitions about a career in music,and I'm working on getting there.Which for me right now is perfecting my craft.

[Psycho Amram]

Originally posted by kingdavid
[QUOTE]If and when you get to the level you can have an impact globally
ha ha
i'm from israel and nobody ever ever ever got out of here and i heard one guy who can easily equal malmsteen and he's not even famous here. people round here like mainstream which i hate.
besides i suck writing english songs so the only global thing i can do is instrumental and i don't like instrumental so much.
so if i write hebrew songs (which i do) i can only become famous here and even if i'd be a megastar here (and i won't)i won't earn a decent living.

[kingdavid]

Originally posted by Psycho Amram
Originally posted by kingdavid
[QUOTE]If and when you get to the level you can have an impact globally
ha ha
i'm from israel and nobody ever ever ever got out of here ...
There's always the first one.

[canuck7]

i say that you should just use the riff. tweak it yeah, but just use it. i agree with the people who are saying that since everyone is doing full covers you might as well go ahead and borrow a riff.
not a great analogy but it's kinda working for me. but if you are going to use it, you really should tweak it a little bit, even if just the rhythm or the effect you use or something. but it's not such a big deal for me, my friends and i are always using each others riffs and stuff without giving each other.
don't get a heart attack over it, or lose sleep. if you don't feel too comfortable doing it, then just don't do it.