Guitar Tricks - definition of shredding

Dejan Sajinovic

10-08-2002, 03:59 AM

I agree with you ´cause I don´t find Eddie being that fast to bve compared to Yngwie our Gilbert. But Eddie have definitly more feeling in his solos than Yngwie our Gilbert have and his sound is amazing. But Eddie is legend.

I saw a top rank of shreders of the eightis and here´s the list (actually there was eleven players)

10. Randy Rhoads
9. George Lynch
8. Greg Howe
7. Jason Becker/Mary Friedman
6. Paul Gilbert
5. Eric Johnson
4. Joe Satriani
3. Yngwie Malmsteen
2. Steve Vai
1. Eddie Van Halen

Now I don´t agree with this list 100% but most parts are OK. I think that they have forgotten Chris Impellitteri and Michael Angelo (but I´m not sure if he was famous in the eightis). I think that Randy and Eddie are equal players and if Eddie´s first than Randy should be next to him but they don´t deserve the first place. And to be honest, I don´t know who deserve it.

bodders

10-08-2002, 06:15 AM

I'm sorry but I have to contradict you here. I hold the same opinions but jesus man - you can't say that Satriani is a shredder. As far as I'm concerned, shredding is doing runs up and down one modal scale, to no degree of rhythm, or melodic harmony.

Go and listen to Satriani's solos, and you'll see that yes; occasionally they are stupidly fast but somehow he manages to retain his feel and emotion in the solos, and that's the reason I regard him as one of the best soloists of all time.

pah. Satriani a shredder. tut tut ;)

Dejan Sajinovic

10-08-2002, 07:25 AM

It´s not my list actaully. I took it from the magazine and the page was Best shreders of eightis (the spinal countdown). I don´t think either that Joe our Eric Johnson our even Vai and definitly not Rhoads aou Van Halen can be called shredders ´cuse they are not. But they are pretty close since they all can get fast but they have some pretty slow emotional stuff and that´s why they can´t be called pure shredders.

Led Zeppelin

10-08-2002, 05:09 PM

Shredding is music that makes my ears bleed

Dejan Sajinovic

10-09-2002, 03:43 AM

Shred is amazing as long as it isn´t too much. To listen to a song where a guy is playn´ scales up and down as fast as he can for 5 min. is boring as hell but if you divide it and shred like 1 min. than play some cool melodies and then shred again, it can be very cool. I suggest Satriani/Petrucci/Vai formula, mixing shred with melodies and even some exotic stuff like Arabic scales. Japanese traditional music is awsome. Just listen to Cacaphony, it´s great stuff. Classic is of course nice to but it´s just so common now days.

Use you imagination while shredding but slow down somtimes. It´s good for rest and for the solo.

bodders

10-09-2002, 07:14 AM

likewise. Shredding's not an artform. It's like that contemporary jazz crap. Something to furrow your eyebrows whilst listening to, whilst some people seem to find enjoyment from it.

pff

Dejan Sajinovic

10-09-2002, 08:10 AM

If think shredding is an art of guitar playng. If it wasn´t why would it be so famous. Among all guitarstyles I rank shredding very high but the greatest thing (my opinion) is to mix shred and feel so that nowone can say to you, he´s nothing but fast, he ain´t got no feeling our own style at all.

SLY

10-09-2002, 11:02 PM

I totaly agree with "Dejan Sajinovic".
Shredding all the time is very boring, on the other hand playing quite slow stuff all the time is also boring.

The best guitarist (in my opinion) is the one who makes the best balance between shredding and soulful licks.

bodders

10-10-2002, 02:57 AM

So what about tapping? shred/tap? shred/tap?

tapping's an art form as far as I'm concerned because it holds a pattern. Imagine - there's two gys playing the piano. One of them is doing repeated chord sequences very quickly, changing them in unison with the melodic chord sequences... (representing tapping,)

and the other's just going up, and down, and up, and down holding the same key, and smashing a rigid line through the harmony of the background... making it so that the music only really sound correct when IT molds ITSELF to suit him. (i.e. Shred.)

I just don't get it really. Fine it's all very good having quick legato and a picking style that would show that you could give a woman a very... very good time, but really guys. Really think about it - impressive, maybe. Famous, maybe... but it kind of defies the point no?

Dejan Sajinovic

10-10-2002, 06:34 AM

No way man. Listen for example to Jason Beckers Serrana. That´s art man. If it was Bach our somwone, it would be one of theirs most famous work. I don´t think that shredding is always for showing off.

There should be no diffrence between playn fast and slow actaully but evryone can play slow and that´s why some pople who can´t play fast say, he´s just showing off, playng as fast as he can on that stupid scale but if you take a closer look to some amazing shredders out there, you´ll discover that it´s hell more than 10 scales and 20 different arpeggios licks.

Shred is difficult to master, just listen to Paganini, he was nothing but shredder and if he played guitar, people like you would say, it´s not an art he´s just showing off but since it´s a violin, you´ll find it as art wich is sad. For some people, guitar players who are fast are bad, boring and almost compared to punk players but I´ll tell you SHRED GUITAR PLAYERS ARE THE BEST GUITAR PLAYERS AND GUITAR MUSIC IS THE MOST FAMOUS ART IN WORLD!!!!!!

Zeppelin

10-10-2002, 09:11 AM

ahh where shall i start?
first of all if everybody can play fast, which david gilmour is one of the most respect guitar players?
sherdding is about show off and nothing more than that.
you play fast only because you can. not because it has a point or something. usualy they also dont do such creative things as well.. everyone can give up on his life and to practice pseudo classical harmonies all the day long... the thing is that most people wont do that because we are not insane guitar-holics and usualy have other things to do in life.
maybe shredding is closer to classical music than anything else because its built on classical music theory and such and not on jazz and blues like most of the rock things, but give me a break, they are not even close to bach..
in 10 years no one will even remember jason becker or 90% of those people.. classical pieces is something most of the people in any western society will enjoy. shredding? hmmm except for guitar holics i dont think anyone will like it..

p.s i guess my post turned out a bit mad.. so im sorry if this insults anyone here

BarHook

10-10-2002, 01:39 PM

u got some good points and bad points in there, firstly; it's sad but true, Jason Becker won't be remembered in 10 years, becuase although he was fast I dont think he contributed to the music, like Vai and Satch who i reckon did contribute, they are like the Beethoven and Bach of guitar.

I don't agree when u say shredding is showing off, why is it more showing off than slow music? They both require equal skill and some people have a personality where they like shred, either way they arent showing off unless u specifically do it to show off.
newways thats all
peace

Dejan Sajinovic

10-10-2002, 05:04 PM

I think that Jasons sweep technique is amazing and lot of players are influenced by him on that spot. Still I find him like one of biggest guitar music talents ´cause he was only 17-18 yrs. old while he did first Cacophany album Speed Metal Symphony.

Reason why he won´t be rememberd is ´cause of his illnes (ASL). He was around for about 4-5 years and allready acomplished a very high status, simply a legend. Think if he could play today and all those years till today, than you can ask your self if he would be rememberd.

O yeah, you have forgotten Jimi Hendrix. He´s the godfather of guitar.

Like I sad before, why is fast guitar play always considred as showing off. I think it´s so silly. Music is music and we got to learn to respect evry damn music style.

Zeppelin

10-10-2002, 05:41 PM

what jimmi hendrix has to do with shredding?
i have respect for musicians.. i just dont think their music is that good.. its a matter of opinion but comparing jaso becker to bach or mozart is a bit naive...
i wonder how many people in this world can buzz any becker's melody.. and its not only because he had short career.. yeah he is a virtuoso and such, and i wish i'd have his technique but his music doesnt transfer to the listener any feelings whatsover,,... ah so he can play fast, can sweep 1000 arpegios in 5 second and knows enough theory to play neo classical progressions... but the problem is that he takes only the technique and the theoretical knowledge from classical music - the feel doesnt exist there.

trendkillah

10-10-2002, 07:21 PM

"Feel" and "emotion" are extremely vague and TOTALLY PERSONAL things. What sounds like a show-off to one person might make another person cry.
Yes, Jason Becker can play fast, but so ****ing what? It seems to me that the people who talk **** about guitarists for being technical only listen to and comment on that aspect of their playing.
Keep in mind that there ARE other motives for people to listen to so called "shredders" than just their technical skills.

I think anyone who has the guts to say a certain player has no feel or emotion, and makes it a general statement in stead of a personal opinion, is a ****ing arrogant prick.

Zeppelin

10-11-2002, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by trendkillah

I think anyone who has the guts to say a certain player has no feel or emotion, and makes it a general statement in stead of a personal opinion, is a ****ing arrogant prick.

:) thats nice
but i dont think every guitar player has a feel.
feel is not a term from outter space.. its about dynamics and vibratos and bends and such.. its not like SRV or Jimmy Page or B.B King got a secret way to play guitar or something like that but the thing is that they know how to use all those things ive mentioned and thats what feel is about. in jason becker's music he misses this.. usualy hes just too busy with sweeping fast arpegios and you can say he sounds good and all but his music is still tasteless and feel-less in my opinion.
im not talking in absolute terms here.. its my opinion, but when someone plays so fast it comes instead of other things anothe player would have used in the same solo..

bodders

10-11-2002, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by Dejan Sajinovic
Music is music and we got to learn to respect evry damn music style.

I couldn't agree with you more Dejan.

But although I appreciate it (I might not like it, but I do appreciate it,) I think what needs to be said, is that actually trendkillah's wrong in what he's saying.

Put it this way trend: Play whatever music you want to play, but the real emotion DOES actually come from technicality. Where else could it come from? Surely you're not suggesting it comes from the melody?

You could sit down and play Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and hammer it out with no change of tone, no fluctuation in volume, pedal or whatever comes from the technical side of piano (differing from the subject), and to be frank, it'll sound like **** :| And in my view, no matter what the melody is, or the skill of the person playing... IF YOU'RE PLAYING THAT FAST (1000 arpeggio rakes per millisecond,) THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO HAVE TO TIME TO EXERT OF THESE THINGS, THAT GENERALLY CONTRIBUTE TO GOOD EMOTION... AND THUS GOOD MUSIC.

Contradict me if you think I'm wrong, but I can't really see a flip-side to the coin unless you're looking at the song from a purely technical side.

SLY

10-11-2002, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Zeppelin
:) thats nice
but i dont think every guitar player has a feel.
feel is not a term from outter space.. its about dynamics and vibratos and bends and such.. its not like SRV or Jimmy Page or B.B King got a secret way to play guitar or something like that but the thing is that they know how to use all those things ive mentioned and thats what feel is about. in jason becker's music he misses this.. usualy hes just too busy with sweeping fast arpegios and you can say he sounds good and all but his music is still tasteless and feel-less in my opinion.
im not talking in absolute terms here.. its my opinion, but when someone plays so fast it comes instead of other things anothe player would have used in the same solo..
[/B]

What Jason Becker's songs have you listened to? the man never misses the dynamics or soul even when he's shredding or sweeping.
Try 'Altitudes' from 'Perpetual Burns' album , if you did and say it's boring or played without feelings... hmmm ... I donno what can I tell you then..

I agree that some shredders are pretty boring, like malmsteen & michael angelo...
on the other hands, most of other shredders have amazing technincs,style & soul like Vai,Satch,Gilbert,Petrucci, Jason Becker ,and many others...

I believe in 10 years or so, Jason Becker will be rediscovered & remembered as a legend ... the man contributed to the music so much in very short period, he only have one amazing solo album written & played by him, and another one that was mostly played on key board since he couldn't play then...

bodders

10-11-2002, 07:33 AM

NNNNNRRRGHHH VAI IS NOT A SHREDDER. SATCH IS NOT A SHREDDER. PETRUCCI IS NOT A SHREDDER.

AND YES - Malmsteen IS a shredder, and as you say - he's **** ok?

I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THOSE NAMES FROM, OR IF IT WAS THAT LIST YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE BUT YOU REALLY NEED TO DO SOME LISTENING, AND GET TO GRIPS WITH THE REALLING MEANING OF WHAT IT IS... AND HOW CRAP IT IS, TO SHRED.

SLY

10-11-2002, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by bodders
NNNNNRRRGHHH VAI IS NOT A SHREDDER. SATCH IS NOT A SHREDDER. PETRUCCI IS NOT A SHREDDER.

AND YES - Malmsteen IS a shredder, and as you say - he's **** ok?

I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THOSE NAMES FROM, OR IF IT WAS THAT LIST YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE BUT YOU REALLY NEED TO DO SOME LISTENING, AND GET TO GRIPS WITH THE REALLING MEANING OF WHAT IT IS... AND HOW CRAP IT IS, TO SHRED.

Well, the defintion of shredding is playing fast stuff... all those guys I've mentioned shred, including Vai and Satch...

!SHREDDING IS NOT AN INSULT !

about the list thing you said, I don't get those names from f*cking magazine polls or sh*t... I listen to them all, and I like most of their stuff...I also listen to blues & rock , classic, flamenco , other genres that you probably don't know... if you don't like shredding I can't tell you're wrong, it's your opinion, but also you have nothing to argue about with me about what music I listen/like , right?

Finally, SHREDDING IS NOT CRAP, BUT TOO MUCH SHREDDING IS .

Zeppelin

10-11-2002, 08:10 AM

first of all Bodders dude, calm down a bit

He is right about steve vai and such.. they are not shredders . same about michael angelo.. he is a typical metal-head ..thats it..
yes ive heard "atitudes" by jason becker. in my opinion its tasteless rip-off from classical music.
seriously, he is a good guitar player and such, has a good technique but his music is like classic music only much more boring..
in steve vai's stuff you have much more then one fast guitar.. its always about the whole composition. michael romeo - the guy could play in any 70's band, only he has better technique than all of the hard rock guys from 30 years ago, he has a great sound, plays amazingly clean and usualy has real phrases and not up and down runs.
Jason becker? i can summarise it in "scale up , arpeggio x 100, sweep x 100 and so on"
if you let those two guys (michael romeo and jason becker) to play same song/piece i cant tell that one of them will play it better.. im sure they are pretty much techniqly equal but when it comes down to stuff they write jason becker sounds like any other guitar player who plays electric 6 string, loves classical music and listened to ritchie blackmore when he was a kid..
its nice and everything but not my kind of thing