Define the word sell-out?

[Joseph]

Define the word sell-out? Is this something that you use lightly in everyday conversation? Personally, I feel that most people fail to truly analyze what this means. When it comes to artistic freedom, a lot of us take it for granted, and yes sometimes we tend to put our money where our mouth is, but overall we try to make the best decisions podssible.

In a world of politics, things are always done in a certain way, even sided, even corners. But whenever I see someone in the public eye who isn't afraid to be themselves, that's something I truly admire and respect. Now I don't necessarily have to agree with them, but it always makes conversation more stimulating. In my relationships, friendships, I guess I naturally galvanize for someone who's very much different than myself, because I like it when others challenge me to think much differently.

-Joseph :cool:

[lalimacefolle]

I think the word sell-out is when you take a decision which you would be against in normal times, but you have to take due to economical pressure.
Bands that become more commercial are sellouts? Well, if they have choosen to make different music only because that's an artistic choice, they aren't. If they write something just so that it becomes a number 1 hit, yes, they are sell outs, and actually, they don't deserve to be artists...

[Slasher]

A lot of people see selling out as making a lot of money from music. But if someone offered you a million bucks to do an album, I think 99% of us would take it. But as long as the music stays true to what you want it to be then it's not sellin out, after all we all need to make a living. Limp Bizkit fans had a go at Fred Durst coz he moved from Jacksonville to LA. N Wes Borland left the band coz he thought they had sold out coz they were makin a lot of money and livin the high life. I don't see that as selling out myself as the music has stayed the same. But it all depends on the record label, if they change anything about you, music, fashion, lifestyle etc thats all part of a corperate machine, a cog of conformity. Changing yourself to make money thats when you've sold out, and the music is not important. But if you manage to become big, make a lotta money n not change, that would be fantastic. Knowing that there are people all around the world listning to my message would satisfy me more than the money. On the other hand money could buy me allsorts...

[Joseph]

We're so quick to coin the phrase "sellout," when it comes to the recording artists of our generation, especially when they refuse to go according to plan. But I guess the question we should asking ourselves is whether we refuse to change, and naturally evolve, and become who ever it is that we're supposed to be?

We have trouble dealing with change in our lives sometimes, so we naturally try to make it hard for others. We can't always accept art for what it is, or a person's opinion without questioning if it's pretentious. I guess because a lot of the time, we have already made up our mind without proper investigation.

It's frustrates me when people cannot accept a different philosophy, it's bothers me when people refuse to take the time to learn how others think before passing judgement. Basically we end up missing out on a lot in our lives, because we're waiting to prove ourselves right instead of accepting that we're actually wrong sometimes.

It's simple, and then again we make it so difficult. We categorize everything that's meant to be enjoyed, instead of just naturally appreciating what's really there. Life is too short to question every second we experience on this earth.

I've always thought much differently than the average bear, :cool: but I've always tried not to judge others without thinking things through. I'm just not the type of person who easily makes up his mind when it comes to the personalities of others, the subconscious workings of the mind.

I never let first impressions take over my better judgement. Now we can't expect to appreciate all different types of music, and the art that others have to offer. But it's rediculous to tear people apart, when there's obviously so much to learn. ...and that's what this thread is about, understanding why people use the term so loosely.

Basically, I'm sure we can all count how many times we have heard the word "Sellout" in the wrong context...

-Joseph :cool:

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Slasher
A lot of people see selling out as making a lot of money from music. But if someone offered you a million bucks to do an album, I think 99% of us would take it. But as long as the music stays true to what you want it to be then it's not sellin out, after all we all need to make a living. Limp Bizkit fans had a go at Fred Durst coz he moved from Jacksonville to LA. N Wes Borland left the band coz he thought they had sold out coz they were makin a lot of money and livin the high life. I don't see that as selling out myself as the music has stayed the same. But it all depends on the record label, if they change anything about you, music, fashion, lifestyle etc thats all part of a corperate machine, a cog of conformity. Changing yourself to make money thats when you've sold out, and the music is not important. But if you manage to become big, make a lotta money n not change, that would be fantastic. Knowing that there are people all around the world listning to my message would satisfy me more than the money. On the other hand money could buy me allsorts...

Oh contraire;
Staying the same because it sells well is just as much a sell out as letting a record company write your music and dictate your wardrobe. $3 Bill was an honest album. I saw LB open for Primus months before they hit it big and the album and that show were true to that disc. I thought it sucked, but that's my opinion and honestly, they were doing their thing. My brother bought that album either that night or soon after so I got a very good listen to it, and I really have to say - it was an honest album. I haven't heard a single LB song that didn't sound contrived and formulaic to me since.

Metallica on the other hand haven't done a single thing in ten years that hasn't pissed their fans off (thereby selling less records) and still gets called "sellouts." That I think is bull.

[educatedfilm]

educatedfilm's definition of selling out: Letting your artistic desicion be affected by a compulsion/ drive/ need to make money.

That means, if you change your music to sell, then your selling out. Keeping your music the exact same, cos it sold before, cos you want to still make as much money as the last record, is also selling out.

Notice, that in my definition, letting songs get aired on ads is not selling out, if the song was not originally written for the ad.
Me, personally, when i get serious about writting songs, i'll write for the sake of it. I'd love it if got recognised, and published to the masses, and maybe some money would be a bonus. My main goal, is just making music, my second is recognition. I dont regard the money making aspect very highly, but i'm also not naive enough to think money is not important, cos it costs money to make music, money to get the advertising which would get some recognition. THen again, I do have good options, I mean really, my career path is not music, but i'd love to have some musical sucess.

[lalimacefolle]

Okay, let's put some oil in the fire:

I think that Satch is a sellout. He's been trying to re-do his 'surfin with the Alien' with his latest albums... That's my opinion... But what do you think?

[educatedfilm]

well it depends... is he doing it to make money? or is because he's not happy with "surfing" now, and thinks with some modern fx and production methods he could do a better job?

[lalimacefolle]

Since he has a recording contract with sony, I guess whatever he does is there to make money...

[educatedfilm]

where would we be with out cynics... lol
i dont like the guy to be honest, but he might just want to fix up some stuff which he now finds embarrasing, in need of some work etc etc

[pstring]

Sellout- the direct opposite of "World's Best Unknown Guitarist".

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by pstring
Sellout- the direct opposite of "World's Best Unknown Guitarist".


Some of them go from one to the other quite fast...

[Bardsley]

It's such a strange idea. Being a musician is doing your job. You get paid to do things. Would you call a bricklayer a sellout because he simply laid bricks where people told him to? In days gone by, the whole point of being a musician was to entertain, and to write music that people would want to listen to. What is wrong with that? If you like the music, why do you need to say whether or not the band are "sellouts", and if you don't, what are you listening to their music for?
Don't get me wrong, I admire people who have artistic vision and who pursue it no matter what, but I don't understand how I am supposed to put myself into a postition to judge someone esle on what route their career should take. I think it would be a shame for anyone to put out an album that they didn't like, but again, who am I to judge?

[^Chacron^]

I'm a pro-capitalist and see nothing wrong with making money from something you have a talent for....including music, but at the same time the reason I would not choose a career in band work is because I want to stay away from the world where record companies **** bands for money by making them change the music for no reason other than capital. I'm more the type of player who sticks to a non-commercial band and plays for people who want to hear the music he offers and not what a record company offers on behalf of him. Not that I'm saying all new music sucks because of the companies, I'm very far from that viewpoint, but i wouldnt want to be thought of as a commercial tool.

Even when you think you found record company that suits your creative needs they can always change on you later. Like whoever it was who told megadeth they would be better as a nu-metal band with a new name. They refused to go anywhere near that suggestion because millions of fans appreciated the music as it was and if keeping it that way didnt make them more money they didnt care. Kudos to Megadeth!

[educatedfilm]

lol bards, it's not a judgement... it's an oppinion, the one that plays a big role in whether you enjoy thier music or not...
yes, ofcourse there sell out who still make good music, but the general trend is that music with money as it's main goal sounds very contrived, and not very real... i admit "real" is a very elusive, and possibly even non existant...
WIth a brick layer, he lays bricks as he has learnt to. With music, it's ALL about creativity... you can still be creative with some restrictions (and this can actualy help in some cases), but it shouldn't affect the creativity, and lead the artist, to simply re-arrange some old clichies.
If a writer cant be creative and imaginitive, he cant do his job well. But a brick layer (with all due respect) can. I mean that brick layer example works for musicains who play music written by some one else for a living (there's nothing wrong with that), but for poeple who write songs it doesn't quite match.

I have nothing against making music for money, but it's bands that start out honest sounding... then all of a sudden, they've got those awful alternative beards, pierced eye-brows, and pouring out not very original nu metal... that's what i dont enjoy, and so dont buy the cds...

[Bardsley]

See, I don't care that you have all those guys posing and pretending to be punks. I just think the music often sucks. If it doens't, I don't care how true to themselves they are, I just listen for good sound. The idea of music as creative is reasonably modern also. It used to be considered heretical in Western music to see yourself as a creator, you made music that came from God. Writing good music can, I think, be seperated from any kind of amazing creative inspiration, but rather can be seen as a craft in which the composer looks at how best to portray what they want to portray. Make music that is solid and beautiful in craftmanship. Or make a house that doesn't fall down.

[kingdavid]

In the movie "The Heist",that short actor(is he called Danny De Vito?)calls some Gebe Hackman,for playing him in a deal,a "contrary mother****er".I liked that term,and I'll use it here,of course minus the profanity.
You guys are contrary.
You say(although not in these words) that a "true" artist is the one who does their music coz people like it and the stay tha way.
A sell out,you say,is the guy tha does music,not to please the listeners.NO.To make money.That sonofabithch is not the type who stays true to his soul.he only does what sells.Here's why you're contrary:
How do you make money?
By selling.
And why do people buy music?
COZ THEY LIKE IT.
Isn't "real","unsellout" music supposed to sell.Are masterpieces only supposed to be collecting dust somewhere in someone's attic?
Havind said that,as much as anyone would like to disagree,this whole sellout thing is very judgemental.And I won't deny,I'm a bit like that too.But me,I'm still learning,still growing up,still hearing people.I call it judgemental coz when you say that someone isn't being true to his art,do you know whatever inspired him to do the music that gave you the impressionof his true art,the music that gave you your definition of him?Most likely no.Do you know what inspired him to do the music he's done now,the music that makes you call him a sellout?Again most likely no.All he did was make some music that didn't please you.But how about the rest 5,999,999,999 of us?(ok,whatever figure of people who get to hear the music.If this figure has you wondering,the world's populaton is said to be 6 billion.1+ this figure equals 6 billion,duh!!)If the music still sells,it means there are others who like it.
O.K.maybe the record industry influences,through marketing,people's idea of what good music is(good,again,is a judgemental word).But hey,the idea is to please people.Which makes me think of a definition for a sell out:
Someone who,lackingin talent,skill,creativity,whatever,produces some substandard
stuff and then through other means(as opposed to good quality)gets people to buy his music.
Point is,people's definition of good music is none of your business.If you don't like it,don't buy it.Change the station when it comes on air.Don't practice the riffs on your guitar.
And don't use terms on people,terms you can't define.And most of these terms for describing people,outside of things like tall,fat,rude,are just plain f***ing judgemental.
Whoever(James I think it was)started this thread was right;people use English very loosely.

[kingdavid]

Originally posted by Bardsley
...I don't care how true to themselves they are, I just listen for good sound...
EXACTLY!
Listen for a good sound.A sound you like.Leave the other "soul" stuff to whoever is doing his msic.He only owes it to himself and no one else to be true to himself.They'll deal with their own conscience when the time comes to deal with their conscience.You're not bandmates or anything.
I didn't mean to double post.Ok,I meant,:)coz this had to be quoted on its own.

[Edited by kingdavid on 05-20-2002 at 05:01 AM]

[educatedfilm]

bards: yeah, I do listen out for a sound that pleases me, the problem is the i do not enjoy a contrived sound...
I'm not massively into punk, as sadly becuase of the actaully style it self, its open to any muppet that fanciesd a bit of DIY punk, and has no intrest in politics, or the dada movement, some one who's never even browsed throug Burroughs books. Having said that, there are some real greats, like The dead kennedies, Mission of Burma etc etc.

dave: I said they make music to SELL, I didn't say anything else. Ofcourse to sell, means to get more listeners, and the easiest way to do that is to give them what they already like.
In my humble oppinion, you should make music that you mean or are enjoying making... You can always say it's not that simple. and that musicain need to make a living, yes they do, but they dont have to do it by writing contrived, cleaned up, ultra politically correct, clichies about relationships (ahem Backstreet boys). if musicains need to make money, there are plenty of ways to make it out side the main stream.

[PonyOne]

My definition of a sellout, which I posted up in that argument about Korn a few weeks back:

A sellout is a person/group who is in it just for the money and will change their politics, sound, image, etc solely for widespread appeal and increased sales.

In my mind the worst kind of sellout is a band like Korn. Korn went from being as un-socially-acceptable as possible to being the coolest band out there through no fault of their own; that is not selling out. So everyone loves Life Is Peachy, and it becomes okay for rockers to wear Adidas (which is cool, running in combat boots or DM's sucks). Alright.

Then Korn releases the video to Got The Life, a response to their sudden stardom in which the band members blow up a ferrari and give a Mercedes to a homeless guy because they're madly loaded. I don't like Ferraris and I advocate giving to the homeless, but it seemed more like bragging than being socially aware. My girlfriend of the time got me the CD Follow The Leader and it sounded little like Korn save for Freak On A Leash. It was going for a bassier sound whilst being watered down lyrically. Korn competes with N'Sync and BSB on MTV in the US, and all of a sudden every kid feels like a freak and has head problems. Korn releases another CD that's 95% about hating yourself as a non-fitting-in teen and hell, let's face it, pull aside the hottest, most trendy cheerleading captain in the US and coerce her into a heart-to-heart and she'll start talking about how she's misunerstood and totally doesn't fit in.

The CD also has an accompanying doll that can be purchased for $15 anywhere CD's are sold. There are now a total of over 35 Korn clothing products in print as well as lighters, notebooks, etc. Then they get on Celebrity Cribs and brag about their three million dollar mansions, hundred thousand dollar cars, hot tubs and wads of hundred dollar bills in their pants.

That is selling out. Korn is no longer what they started out as which isn't necessarily bad or selling out; listen to Blur's first CD, Leisure, and then compare it to their last two, Blur and 13, and there is an obvious progression as musicians. Then listen to the first Korn CD and compare it to Issues and see what you think.

When people compromise their sound and their talent to appeal to a broader audience, not to spread their word but to make some more $$$ that is selling out. IMHO.

I want a career in music. I'd like to make some big money off it (but then if cleaning carnival outhouses barehanded got me a million bucks a year...), and if I end up making a CD on a shoestring budget ala Nirvana's Nevermind, and then have enough money to buy better amps, guitars, synths, etc there will be an obvious change in my music. But I will make music for myself, not for increased airplay.

[educatedfilm]

dont you mean "bleach".. that album cost a little over $600 to record.... Nevermind was a four figure sum (which is a shoe string compared to some of the albums to day, but still)

[Zeppelin]

unfortunatley few of my favorite musicians became sell-outs..
im talking about jimmy page and deep purple as a whole..
Jimmy page is a sell out because instead of recording new stuff or retiring he is doing silly things with all the toy rapers and limp bizkit. i feel that he sells himself for some money and i think it is realy realy sad that he does it , no matter what are his reasons for doing that.
About deep purple: well as a band they are great players and everything, but jon lord (who has quit the band recentley): "we dont go to the studio everytime because we like it that much. We have to earn money"
The band now plays sucky music and ian gillan cant sing no more.
They all hate ritchie blackmore and everything but he is the only musician in the whole world who'll never be a sell out. When he found out he cant do anything new and good in rock anymore, he started to play all the briton based dark ages music, which is not as good as a "real" classical music but you can realy feel they guy cares about only one thing : playing only the things he wants to play..

[^Chacron^]

I'll admit to buying clothes with the names and logos of bands I like, but I feel its a good way of showing people what I'm into...its kind of a part of who I am, but i've always thought these things were made more for the sake of companies wanting to cash in on succesful bands. Sure the bands get some cash in their pockets but whats on the market is really there to manipulate fans into emptying their walets....I'm very guilty of it, but hell if bands didnt make money music would have a hard time surviving coz there arent many out there these days who are prepared to take up a career in it for free.

Take that example of Blackmore.....he can afford to do what he wants now. I doubt that when he was starting out he would have turned down money for the sake of playing exactly what he wanted to. He was one of the lucky ones who could do that and make money at the same time.

Maybe i'm simply biassed because I work in retail and I have to think like a businessman and then I go home and think like a musician....the two can get mixed up.

[kingdavid]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
...about relationships...if musicains need to make money, there are plenty of ways to make it out side the main stream.

What is wrong with the mainstream?
Why the requirement to be outside the mainstream?
And what is wrong with talking about relationships?
The way Pony puts it(Joseph,apparently here is another above-average bear,I think)has a point,about doing things to widen your appeal,as opposed to the things you do widening your appeal.
But then again,some things people do,they do it for money.Including having that uniqueness to themselves.When a band is all unsocially fit and all that(crap,I might add),they may be very well hoping to use that image to sell.Then when they make the money and all,and no longer need to put on that rude-boy facade,you say they sold out.They didn't sell out;they never were shareholders.See what Pony says about some band having the impact that suddenly every kid has a head problem,socila problem,blah blah blah?Bands know that too.Record companies know that too.They exploit it.
And don't forget this;people change.Not sell out.Change.if you're 25,I'm willing to bet your thought process is very different than when you were 17.If some change in the persons in a band results in their music changing,it doesn't necessarily mean they sold out.Maybe they did.But not necessarily.

[kingdavid]

Now I really didn't mean to double post,but you people better read that thread started by a guy called hack,titled selling out part two or something to that effect.It has some bit of news you might want to hear about.

[PonyOne]

The young-teen angst scene is what got bands like Linkin Park, Staind, etc record deals in the first place. Suburban kids who want not to fit in and want to be a victim becuase it's the only way to be an individual in their eyes, who can go and blow their $20/week allowance on memorabilia.

I own two tool shirts, three deftones shirts (one of which is ratty & trashed), a black flag shirt, three NIN shirts, and my car has a Tool sticker on the trunk (boot). I don't think that there's anything wrong with wearing a shirt for your favorite band; it does give them a little more money, and it shows your support for the band. And sure, why not have hoodies; if you've ever stayed in California for a week you'll understand why (at night temperatures drop sharply but not enough to warrant the use of a full jacket). And the Deftones had something like nine shirt designs, many of which went back to their pre-record sales boom time period.

What ticks me off are bands like Korn, who had thirty new shirt designs inthe span of 3 months. And then the little doll thing. Okay, Ozzy has an action figure out. But Ozzy was one of the original metal dudes, and he is an institution through and through. He didn't necessarily want to end up that way. Korn wasn't an institution but they tried to make themselves one. It's really not different from my sister, who, in her room, has seven different n'sync posters, as well as an n'sync binder, three keychains, etc.

My plan in regards to making my $$$ is twofold: I'm engaged to a rich Jewish girl whose parents are floating her and, by default, me through college (they're paying our rent in LA while she studies and I work & record) and after that she's going into graphic & intereor design, which spells out big bucks.
After I can make some of my own money, hopefully from CD sales I'm investing in real estate: I'm going to buy a few buildings in urban areas and rent them out at prices that still make me money but are cheaper than the average place in the area (I couldn't do what everyone else does and drive prices up madly and keep a clear conscience). That way I can live comfortably, and don't have to churn out CD's to maintain a standard of living. I can focus on the music itself.

[lalimacefolle]

I wanna marry her sister. Now... You know my e-mail adress... :D

[chris mood]

I think "selling out" is when you do something beneath your capabilities just for the sake of making money.

I don't think Satch trying to copy himself is selling out. I think if Satch started playing like Wes Borland and putting out albums that sound like Limp Bizket just to make money would be considered selling out. An opera singer singing Madonna tunes would in my book be considered selling out.

I think when you sacrafice your artistic integrity just to satisfy the big corprations your selling out. For instance: my friend plays in a rock band that was getting some serious attention from a major label. After a couple of months of this label checking them out they told the band they were really interested in signing them but wanted them to change there feel from rock to country pop, they of course did.

I think as artists were all faced with the dilemma of selling out sometime in our careers. I know even on a local level you can go out and make lots of money playing in wedding bands or top 4o cover bands, the only skill these gigs require is the ability to reproduce other peoples music authentically. Your often faced with performing songs you can't stand just to satisfy the audience (anybody remember the Macerana?). These are issues all artists face an all levels.

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by chris mood
An opera singer singing Madonna tunes would in my book be considered selling out.

Luciano PAVAROTTI is a sellout? Dude, I gotta burn all his CDs... ;D

[chris mood]

And do it Quick !!!!:)