which is more important speed or feeling

[saul hudson]

ive been having this argument with a few people latley about which is more important speed or feeling and its really pissing me off cause ive always played from the heart but peolpe are saying that im no good cause i dont play really fast do you have to play a speed driven solo to be classed as a good guitarist these days??????

[Jimmy Page XVI]

I would say that it is more important to play with feeling than with speed. To be perfectly honest I do admire in a sort of sense those who are able to play fast leads and such things, yet music is much more, music is made to be enjoyed and felt, not necesarily to be slashed through. In my experience I would say that if you play a song with feeling, the correct timing will be reached no matter what, you just have to give it some time. I have had the same discussion several time, and I have reached the conclusion of fu.. whoever does not like my sound, as long as I am playing the song the way I like to play it, its fine with me. Generally I'd say go with the middle; I believe that both speed and feeling are important in their respective parts in playing the guitar, those who achieve this are the truly good players.

[Bardsley]

Speed is always more important than any kind of feeling. I mean, what were you expecting to hear? As someone who isn't much of a speed player I will say this: People waste their time trying to put some phantom idea of "feeling" into their playing. Feeling really has to do with two things: the notes played; and the phrasing. If you play music that has been written well, you've already got part of the magical "feeling", the next part is to develop phrasing so that you learn how to accentuate the important notes in a passage, and play smoothly. Do not fall into the trap of assuming that to play with feeling means to bend the bloody g stringand play with sloppy sentimental sounds. Listen to Bach; you will find tremendously rich music that relies on huge technical ability in order to bring out the important sense of the music. No amount of feeling will help if you don't have the technique to voice it properly, withouth cliches.

[Incidents Happen]

Feeling is more than just notes and phrasing, its YOUR emotions! thats the way you feel it, not just any dang old notes! every single note can make the person cry if you put feeling into it. Who's gonna cry from a Vai tune? not me. you wont see those emotions coming from me. Yet JG didnt play too fast, nor too slow, but he played with FEELING.

I can play fast, play 32 bars of crap, but i can also play 4 bars of absolutely beautiful music that anybody would like to hear. i'd rather play 4 bars of beautifulness than 32 bars of CRAP

[river]

i think ya gotta be able to do it all. practice
fast because sometimes ya need to be quick between
slow stuff and sometimes ya just need a fast thing,
ya know ? slow is good. fast is good.

[lalimacefolle]

Under 20 notes per second, I don't listen to it (I'm kidding of course)

[pstring]

Whole notes make me cry

[Benoit]

Feeling all the way.

Better to shed tears than shred hears....

[lalimacefolle]

People cry when they hear me play, they beg me to slow down!! :D

[James]

I don't know if anyone could have put it better then Bardsley... right on man.

[PonyOne]

Why not both?

What if speed is your feeling? And what if you can play a beautiful melody at a realtively low speed? Some songs benefeit from a slower pace. I think both are equally important.

If you mean TIMING rather than actual ability to tear up the fretboard like Vai (making sure you play matched to the band), then I'd say timing is more important, because no matter how much "soul" you put behind it you sound like a retard if you hit the chord a second and a half after you should have.

[educatedfilm]

hmmm.. i'm in two minds... one saying "yeah, Bardsley's right"... The other side is putting a more intresting arguemtent...
I've been getting into Music theory (and some music psychology, but not much cos it's a pain).. Alot of what we do is very emperical ie we know if you do X Y and Z you'll get a certain result. We dont really know why, we simply use "feeling" to navigate us around... Secondly the western music system has cracks in it, that normal musicains like our sleves dont challenge (about your comment on the notes)... If you wanna understand what i'm talking about listen to the more intresting stuff by Philonious (sp?) Munk ... he really does get some odd sounds... About phrasing, hmmm... I'm sort of in agreement, I'm having serious trouble finding phrasing that hasn't been used to death.. but I do feel more natural writing in 5/4, simply by going by "feeling"... So i dont know...
I think it's important to improve your speed wether you use it or not, simply as it gives you more creative freedoms... but, here's where the but comes in, it's certainly not a substitute for a song that convays "feeling", and there is a limit as to how fast you can go and have people actaully get it, there's a minimum separtion between notes... but as was said before, it creats an EFFECT, rather than being a piece of music....
So i'm still undecided... but i'm agreeing a lot with Ponyone...

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
but I do feel more natural writing in 5/4, simply by going by "feeling"

Listen to much Soundgarden? If not, then run out and buy Superunknown NOW.

You won't regret it.

[Led Zeppelin]

Who's JG?

[frettycrouger]

depends on the song...and the type of music you like.....if your playing a friggen song like Nights in white satin...your not going to jason becker the mother ****er and rip a blistering solo in it...your going to play it with emmotion...

but if your entertaining friends....and showing them "how good" you are...speed is where its at....

like that one guy said....you got to have em both :)
there is no right answer to that question cause its opinionated...but....

my two cents of advice would be FEELING.....:)

(cause thats all i have got :))

[Bardsley]

Ok, maybe I need to do some explaining.
If any of you ever heard me play, you would note something - I just can't play that fast. However, this is very much a limiting thing for me; i don't sit around telling myself it's good because I work on "feeling". The next thing you might notice is the stuff I listen to; Vai, Satch; Malmsteen? No, more like U2, Dylan, Hendrix, Coltrane, Miles, Radiohead. Most of the guitarists I listen to are fairly slow, but they play beautifully. Edge from U2 is one of my favourite guitarists and he only plays solos with three notes in it. So, I hear you say, it's the feeling that I am attracted to... No it's not. The reson Edge sounds good is a combination of the cool effects he uses and something that might come as a surprise: his choice of notes. If note choice is what you call feeling, as you have to use your "feelings" to play the right notes at the right time then fine, that is extremely important - but to worry about how much feeling you are putting into the actual notes is to miss the point in my opinion.

On the other side of the coin are people like Charlie Parker and John Coltrane, Coltrane plays extremely fast, but he sounds amazing. He knew what to play - though each note in itself was not particularly important, the effect of them together created the right sound. He would have worked on his tone, sure, just as guitarists need to work ont heir phrasing or the eq on their amps, but it is what he played that made all the difference.

The reason I don't listen to Vai is because his music is boring, not because he doesn't have any "feeling". To suggest that he doesn't put feeling into his music is silly, because he obviously is extremely passionate about it.

Basically I agree with Ed, but I am coming from a different definition of feeling. To be able to paly ffast is very useful, and something tha tin my opinion should be sought after much more than the ability to think of the first time you got laid every time you play a unison bend...

[Incidents Happen]

you are missing the whole emotions part, totally - i played in front of some of my friends today, who were just blown out of the water by what i was playing- i was NOT playing fast, not really at all ( i can kind of but i dont like it ) and anyways- its not just your note choice. there are other factors other than simply the guitar. how you are feeling that day, how energetic the crowd is/people standing around, etc. its not just "i pick these notes, i play these notes" if you've ever hit that feeling of nirvana when some people and you are interacting...but you are interacting to them through the guitar, and they are sending you the signals to play! i swear it has happened to me a few times, and its the best thing in the world. i've played for some kids ( im a kid too...14) and they were impressed that i could come up with **** that sounds great, on the run, total improvisation, no structure really, until i make one myself. Now, i play with a whole lot of feeling, and people appreciate a lot of great feeling more than alot of speedy crap

[Branislav]

I think it's feeling.
You can get speed with practice easily, but it's harder with feeling.

[educatedfilm]

"To be able to paly ffast is very useful, and something tha tin my opinion should be sought after much more than the ability to think of the first time you got laid every time you play a unison bend..."
:) lol... so i take it you a bender?
I mean your right, steve via puts alot of passion into making his music, yet it doesn't convey it sooo well. Listen to some the earlier John lee Hooker stuff, and it is sooo emotional.. So I do think that your point about knowing which notes to accentaute is fair...
Rask: ok, I've only got 2 songs from that album ("black hole sun", and "super unkown")... Any idea why I play in an odd time signature?

[James]

Here's what Al Di Meola had to say when asked what he thought of people who put down speed players as having "no feeling". "That's ridiculous, they're just jealous. Tell that to a flamenco or classical player and they'll laugh at you.". It's so true.

Why is it that whenever some guitarists think of the word "feeling" they automatically picture some fat blues player bending a string up two frets? Don't get me wrong, I love blues, but to base your definition of feeling around ONE particular sound in one particular genre is just wrong. Like Bardsley said, "feeling" is a phantom term, it's relative and intangible. Who's feelings are you describing when you're talking about "feeling", your own feelings induced by the music or the feeling that you're picturing the musician experiencing? Maybe you're picturing B.B. King leaning into a huge bend with sweat running down his brow, eyes shut in passion, and this hits you as having more feeling then a classical player playing Pachabels Canon (spelling?).
Pachabel's Canon was just the first example that came to my mind; the fact is that beautifully intricate music that is both fast and has feeling very much exists, but people have to get over this so-called "blues complex" that makes us think that only slow, predictable bends can move us.

As for Vai, I never liked really liked him until I made a seroius effort to get to know him. The song "Tender Surrender and perhaps For the Love of God" are two amazing examples of emotion and speed working together. I felt it, and whats more HE felt it (I saw the video, the guy plays the guitar as if it's an extension of his body, very organically and VERY powerfully).

[Incidents Happen]

feeling is not a ****ing gift!!! how can you bring feeling to your instrument if you dont practice!? c'mon! if you cant ****ing play, then how can you put feeling into it! think!

[icecool]

You need feel in your playing, to express the type of song your trying to play. To me, speed is not that important. Sure, speed does show a goodish player, but it doesn't show a complete player.
If your obsessed with speed, your playing will just sound very heartless and boring, but if you incorperate feel, it gives pieces a whole new edge.

You need speed, but I think you need feeling in your playing a bit more.

[Incidents Happen]

agreed, ice

[educatedfilm]

Skee1: lol, :)
hmmmmm, this is intresting... It's hard to convince poeple something they "feel" is an illusion... Blues is one of my faviourite styles of music... but the music uses clichies and known about tricks to get the points across (the whole 1, 4,5 chord progression with the 12/8 time signatures, and big bends) You start to notice this when you break down the theory behind the music.. what gives the listener feeling doesn't mean the player is putting it in, and vice versa, (I mean, com'on, Tom York would have commited suicide years ago).... Now this isn't like lyrics, you can say what you want and how you want, and there you really can convey feeling... but in the end what's the point in telling them something is not real, when it just takes away from them, and not really doing them any favours...
I will admit, that if you break down feeling to accentuating the right notes, and having an ear for the right chord progression, then yes it is a gift... As I said before, there are some well off kids in our area, who are taught to read music, and play paino, with no real desire for self expression.... I mean what they're being taught is typing, just pressing the corresponding button to symbol... You try to jam with 'em, what ever, they fall flat on thier arse... simply becuase they dont have the ear to put an extended note here, a percusive sounding chord there etc etc..
Now, Somebody like Dijngo Rienheart (sp?), you hear some one who knows the tricks, and can work them well, and do them at speed... you listen to his stuff and it pretty cool, and you get some intresting sounds on songs like "nauges"...
It's an obvious comment, but it's crucial, things "feel" different a different speeds... Now if you could play your music faster to make it sound more intense, and you wanted an intense piece, then you would, simple as that. To rule out speed is to box your self in, when you could be opening doors...
"feeling is not a ****ing gift!!! how can you bring feeling to your instrument if you dont practice!? c'mon! if you cant ****ing play, then how can you put feeling into it! think!"
lol... You give ten poeple the same instrument, and teach them the same stuff... Will they be the same? No, as with all things in life, poeple's abbilities differ... What mark was saying is that some players have this gift/ ability, he didn't say that the guy on the street (who's never touched a guitar in his life) is suddenly gonna beat every guitarist that practices with out the gift... IT just means you have the potential to do more

[Edited by educatedfilm on 02-27-2002 at 05:17 PM]

[Bardsley]

James, I love that comment from Al Di Meola. Here is a quote of Mike Stern's from the January Guitar Player:
"Chops are a luxury item, but if you use them responsibly, they can add a lot to your music. For example, I never wanted to play fast for fast's sake. But once I was onstage with Blood, Sweat and Tears while everyone was playing aggressive, burning solos. I tried to play this slow, melodic thing, and Jaco (Pastorius) told me I needed to learn how to 'hit up against the time' and nail faster tempos".
Anyone who's any good at the guitar puts feeling into what they are playing, and to suggest otherwise is fairly callous. Not everyone can express the feeling of the music very well, but it is something that one learns with time, and listening to other musicians. However, there is no point learning how to express the feeling of the music if you can't play it. Sometimes you just need to be able to play fast to keep up - as I have experienced a lot recently while jamming with others much more competent than me; I just couldn't keep up with them and so my ability to play good and meaningful solos was diminished. In fact, my ability to express how I was FEELING was reduced, because I couldn't play the damn music. Listen to Hendrix: he's a blues (serious Hendrix fans would know why I call him a blues player I'm sure) palyer with some serious chops and I have a feeling (there's that word again, ever think that it has a fairly ambiguous meaning?) that if you told him he didn't need to play so fast he'd have a bit of a chuckle.

[skee1]

The site below explains the feel thing alot better than
i can it goes back to the roots of blues.
But you need to read it all.

http://thebluehighway.com/history.html


So if really want to know where it all came from
check the site obove.

Mark
And i will say it again this is were Rock music,
came from.->Blues)
With-out these people plus later on .
Little Richard
chuck Berry plus the old blues players way back before
these guys, which there are,to many to mention you wouldn't of had Rock music.
To anyone who don't like blues players or are putting
them down and you are a Rock player you would be laughing
at your own music if you run down the roots of Rock music.(Because it came from the Roots of Blues and so did Jazz!
Also who was the first guitar player to play an electric
guitar and pave the way for us?(He was Black not White)
We owe alot to these people for Rock jazz blues ect.

[Edited by skee1 on 02-28-2002 at 10:37 AM]

[James]

Skee I wasn't referring to you in particular in my post, sorry for the miscommunication! No, I just mean that I've seen hundreds of people come and go on this site who all give their two cents, and alot of them tend to base their conceptions of "feeling" around the blues. People who define "feeling" in terms of how well it resembles a cliched blues bend. That's all I was saying

[Led Zeppelin]

What annoys me is people who talk about playing with "feeling" when they clearly have no idea what it is. There are a few people I know and occassionally mess around on guitar with who just cannot believe that I like the Rolling Stones. The talk about all my favourite guitarists(Keith, George H) and talk about how the have no "feeling". Yes, apparently Keith has no feeling because he's a rhythm guitarist. That has been mentioned by some to me.

My point is while theyre lashing out Satriani/Van Halen or whatever songs note for note and talking about how much "feeling" their putting in to it, they dont understand that feeling is from inside and its something you develop and not learn from a goddam tabbook.

[skee1]

Your right Led-Zepplin
you can't get feeling from a book or a tab book.
it comes from with-in your self.
Good point........

Mark

I like the guys you mentioned i really like all fellow guitarists plus all styles of music.
I don't like putting other guitarists down what ever style of music they play.


Mark

[Bardsley]

Wow, an argument that resulted in something! Skee! I certainly agreed with points you make, but as I said, I think a lot has to do with interpretation of the damn word.

[Incidents Happen]

feeling to me means puttin' your **** down on the guitar that comes from YOU!

[skee1]

Originally posted by Bardsley
Wow, an argument that resulted in something! Skee! I certainly agreed with points you make, but as I said, I think a lot has to do with interpretation of the damn word.
Remember Bardsley i said i agreed (Somewhat) not
100% mabee 10% on what you and Ed said.
Really what Led-zeppelin said made more since in layman
terms then what you or i said .
Coming from with-in your self makes more since to
me to put a feeling or some soul into your notes at
any speed!(Feeling coming from inside your-self.
I was also really talking about sheet music players
that play thier music with-out feeling or soulfully.
Bardsley Define playing Soulfully plus Define playing
with a feeling in any song?
Led-zeppelin
Also Keith Richards dos play his rhythm with a feel and
not like some-one just rattleing off notes from a Tab.
George H also had a feel when playing his notes.
ALSO:Bardsley can you step on a stage and not know the
song that the bands going to play but by knowing
the (key) thier in adlib or improv your lead part
and play with the Band?(I can so whats that called?
I can prove the obove key thing Christoph sent me
a track where he laid the Rhythm & Drums down and
i put a lead part with it and sent it back to him
all i asked him was what (key) the chord progression
was in.Then i had a cup coffie then went with the beat
plus stayed in the progression with my lead part.
Mark

[Edited by skee1 on 03-01-2002 at 10:02 AM]

[lefty_2005]

I think both. If you think about it, it takes feeling to get the speed.

Rock and Metal Forever

[Incidents Happen]

very true

[Bardsley]

Hey Skee, I wouldn't be so arrogant to suggest that you were swayed completely or anything, but rather that both sides have seemed to take into account the other points of view.
I can't read music very well, so most of the time I rely on my ear to play along with people having been simply told the key (and often not even that). A lot of the time friends that I jam with and I will just start a piece, not even really having a set key, but more going on whoever starts first; witha little riff ro something. This gives rise to other ideas coming from the group and we all develop, working off each other's music and ideas. Is this feeling? If you call it that, then I would say it about the most important thing to develop, but I call it something else: being able to listen. The other important thing is to be able to play in a style beffitting the music; there is no point playing country licks over heavy metal (actually, that can sound really cool, but don't try it the other way round). This is having a "feel" for the music, but that is not how I interpreted the question. To be honest, I know I am going around in circles a bit. The reason I made such strong claims at first is this: It is all too easy to fall into the trap of thinking "man, you don't need to play fast, just let your emotins out. I can't play fast, but I can play meaningfully" etc. etc. As noted before in my quote from Mike Stern, sorry, but that just isn't going to cut it in so many instances. A lot of the time I feel limited by my inability to play fast because it means I cannot put the feeling into the music that I want to. Really, it shouldn't be a matter of Speed <b>or</b> feeling, but rather speed <b>and</b> feeling. However, I would think it would be easier to work on speed, and grow into feeling. Feeling comes from listening, from going out and experiencing life and developing ideas that express your experience - hopefully without cliche, unless that is your feeling. By learning about good phrasing, you can learn some good feeling from playing the guitar, the rest of it is wherever you are; regardless of whether you are playing or not. For that reason, I think it is important to work on your speed. Note, when I say speed, I mean a speed that is required to play most music confidently, not necessarily the speed that shredders get to. If you want that, fine, but most people can do without it.

[Incidents Happen]

oooooorrrr.

YOU TELL THEM TO PLAY WITH THEIR ****ING HEART AND SOUL!


thats what my teacher said, he said put your best effort in, play so that it is You, not just notes.

it worked.

[skee1]

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
oooooorrrr.

YOU TELL THEM TO PLAY WITH THEIR ****ING HEART AND SOUL!


thats what my teacher said, he said put your best effort in, play so that it is You, not just notes.

it worked.

If your Teacher can play soulfully he could play a
few notes to show you what it sounds like playing
very soulfully plus playing a few notes showing
you what it sounds like with-out soul or feel!

Also is (****ING) a soulful word or something?
I do know its a no-brainer word don't you think?

Mark


[Edited by skee1 on 03-04-2002 at 11:45 AM]

[Incidents Happen]

yeah, it is.

he did that too.

[skee1]

Thats Great!

Thank you

Mark

[Incidents Happen]

anytime anytime

[James]

Food for thought: Long before the electric guitar and subsequently the "bend" came into existence, beautiful music was composed that much of the time, was very fast. So are we talking about feeling just in terms as it relates to the guitar, or to music overall? Because who can deny that some of the most emotional peices of classical, flamenco, and jazz music contain very fast passages.

[skee1]

Originally posted by James
Food for thought: Long before the electric guitar and subsequently the "bend" came into existence, beautiful music was composed that much of the time, was very fast. So are we talking about feeling just in terms as it relates to the guitar, or to music overall? Because who can deny that some of the most emotional peices of classical, flamenco, and jazz music contain very fast passages.

Very good point James
I think Classical years ago would be in its own class.
Also the flamenco style years ago in its own class.
Now years ago with jazz i would say it came more from
the blues.(or from the south Dixie land)
And yes feeling or amotional peices were played in
all the styles of music obove.(With-out Bends)
plus in other styles of music also.(Music overall)
My gripe in the first place was some-one playing a
peice of music reading it from paper useing no emotion
or feel.To me when playing fast or slow music the guitarist can play it with feeling or emotion.
But some don't they take a great peice of music and
just play it like thier reading a book.(With-out emotion)
And it ends up like a bad movie that dosn't move anybody.
Its the same as a Bad actor some actors can show alot of emotion when acting and some can't.


Mark

[Edited by skee1 on 03-05-2002 at 09:16 AM]

[lalimacefolle]

I read somewhere that depending on the civilization we live in, we are more inclined to see emotion in melody (pitches and harmony of the notes we play) or rhythm (when we play them) and that article said that if an Afro Cuban listened to Al di Meola, with his very percussive technique, he might just find it really beautiful, just like some western guys love Bach's praelude in C (no rhythm changes, just tension due to harmonic changes)...

[skee1]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
I read somewhere that depending on the civilization we live in, we are more inclined to see emotion in melody (pitches and harmony of the notes we play) or rhythm (when we play them) and that article said that if an Afro Cuban listened to Al di Meola, with his very percussive technique, he might just find it really beautiful, just like some western guys love Bach's praelude in C (no rhythm changes, just tension due to harmonic changes)...
Al di Meola (Seems his name keeps poping up)
(Here's a little history on Al di Meola from Frets mag:1983)
By the time Al was in his mid teens he was playing country
music.(Al di Meola says below:)
Coping the licks of Doc Watson and the late Clarence white.
I wanted to become the fastest guitarist in the world."he
laughs."That was my goal then;now i haven't thought about it in years.I played bluegrass for a while when i was 14 or
15.Listening to Doc Watson helped deveop my speed i thought
he used a flatpick all the time.Then when i saw him live,
I was astonished! I'd been trying to do with a flatpick things he was doing with fingerpicks."
I actually did learn how to use fingerpicks during an affair with pedal steel guitar that coincided with my country music period.
Reluctantly ,i gave up pedel steel for good after i realized that it was draining energy away from my 6-string
work.It sounded so beautiful 'he says, "and i was becoming
quite good at it.But things were getting so i wasn't even
playing 6-string guitar anymore,and i thought that was stupid after having played it for something like eight years.So i sold the pedal steel .I had to --it was the only
way i could get away from it.

mARK
Also i forgot to mention his guitar teacher started him
out on ventures guitar music plus had him work on
all styles which made him the great guitarist he is today!








[Edited by skee1 on 03-05-2002 at 02:24 PM]

[nechako]

bla bla ya da ya da "play fast or slow, whatever you FEEL like".....master Tzu

[PonyOne]

I can't stand jazz at all. I've never heard good jazz, honestly; something about it pisses me off.

Even more than that I hate freeform jazz. My girlfriend thinks it's absolutely brilliant; her mom was amazed by it when she got "liberated" in the early 60's, and so everyone in her family loves it. You walk into their house and it's blaring in every room. I've gone to shows with them, and 9 times out of 10 it's a group of Berklee rejects with no talent and loads of technique doing a bunch of crap and trying to pass it off as art. In Boston at least, the frontman is usually some guy named "Boner" or something who wear shades and makes lots of cliche remarks like "yeah", "oh yeah", "bring it on back" etc.

When I hear that crap I want to grab they guy's trumpet and stomp it into the floor, then run off with the $3500 jazzbox the guitarist's playing.

[friskynibbles]

like golf, cigars, and cappucino, jazz is a fad of the late 90s-early 00s that will eventually fall back into the obscurity it once enjoyed.
everyone will benefit from this.
-Daniel

[PonyOne]

I don't think I can emphasize how much I want to agree w/that.

Unfortunately jazz has been going on much, much longer; well past 50 years. Frrom my understanding, it really caught on in the early 60's; many people thought of its fernetic, ill-timed "harmonics" as a reaction to traditional music.

It ended up catching the liberal leftist crowd's mind and has more or less stayed there. Most legitimate jazz annoys me, but little more; the freestyle/freeform jazz that they play on NPR is the stuff that sinks my boat. To me, it's the musical accompanyment to those paintings that are a whole canvas painted grey or a big white space with a splash of red paint across it entitled "Foregoing The Spaghetti" that get passed off as brilliant art and trade hands among rich idiots for $50,000.

[nechako]

I agree there is a lot of "jazz" that is !@#t. I still like Miles Davis and John Mglaughclin, what they did together..at least it had melody. Pat Metheny has some very cool tracks. Jazz is an aquired Taste that I didn't "get" untill I was about 26...I still don't "get" all of it. But then there is alot of music I don't click to,...I know one thing for sure having a form of music forced on you just makes ya wanna puke.

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by nechako
I still don't "get" all of it.

Jazz is a kind of music that you need to work on to enjoy. I know there's a lot of bull**** in it (20 minutes out solos) but work it from back in the 1900s, then work it up from there. Free Jazz can be understood if you understand where it came from...

[Incidents Happen]

i like jazz...

sometimes

when im in a certain mood i can listen to jazz, otherwise its off.

[Led Zeppelin]

I hate Jazz. Jazz guitar anyway - I love jazz trumpet like Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis etc., I don't like saxophones as a general rule(except for the Born To Run solo) but despite the many exceptions, in general I despise jazz in every form.

Modern jazz especially annoys me. To me it just seems like some lad called "Black Cat" or something silly like that gets up on a stage, plays some sped up blues - with the odd bum note every now and then(not that theres anything wrong with that) - then all the cats in the audience clap their hands(or click their fingers as the case may be), shake their heads in astonishment and say "Brrrrrrrwilliant" in low whispers.

It's so phoney to me.



Just my opinion by the way, but seems to be most people opinion by the look of it.

[Bardsley]

Maybe I should stay out of this, as someone who studies modern art and as I write ma listening to Coltrane....
You listen to jazz differently than you do most other music. You have to be prepared to give it a go, as it is very easy to write off by listening to some jazz and deciding there is no melody, no easy beat, etc. However, if you do give it a chance, Jazz can be the most rewrding form of music you will ever hear. Sure, certain types of music aren't for everyone; I don't like death metal for instance, but I rarely display the kind of contempt for a style than you have, PonyOne.
You're not going to like free jazz if you don't like any other type of jazz, but at least understand this. The people who are good at it are passionate, they are talented, they do know what they are doing, and to some people it does actually sound good. Sometimes you may be told that jazz asks you to think about the music and understand what is going on. This is true to a degree, but you can like the music without thinking about it. I listen to free jazz because I like how it sounds; I like the chaos, I like the way the instruments interact with one another, I like the feeling of exploration that comes from the music. It's not something I can listen to all the time, a lot of the time I would prefer to put on some U2, or whatever. But good free jazz is not just some con that has tricked people into liking it because they want to seem smart. Like a lot of modern art that you say is a joke (by the way, most of the paintings that you seem to refer to were painted over 50 years ago, it's not exactly a new thing anymore), you have to look for something other than what you are used to in free jazz. It sounds good, but not for the same reasons.

[James]

I agree with Bard and lal when in that jazz is most certainly an "acquired taste". I also agree that it can be extremely rewarding if you give it a chance. I haven't had any experience with all the horn based jazzers (or with jazz in general really), but personally I love stuff like Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin (sp?). I guess that this "guitar based jazz" is my cup of tea right now, though hopefully someday I'll give the other stuff a serious effort.

[friskynibbles]

jazz has been around for ever.
jazz will not go away.
but it will fade again - and when it does, all the posers will go away and the real musicians will take over again.
i hate posers.

[PonyOne]

I didn't mean to offend anyone (though i seem to have)... sorry if I did/do.

The paintings were originally done 50 years ago; and then 20 years ago, in the early 80's, it enjoyed an upsurge, in which talentless yahoos who were enamored in the artist's lifestyle - not the art - did loads of stuff of that nature to be one of the pretty people.

I can respect the people who started that art movement as a reaction to the overdone paintings of gardens in springtime that were prevelant at the time; it was a very revolutionary thing.
But so many of the artists who now practice this form are tasteless jerks who enjoy berating the artwork of people who DO like putting fine detail into garden scenes, etc. I've been a lifelong patron of the arts and was named the #1 seattle art kid for like four years in a row, had gallery showings etc. when I was like 8 and ended up meeting far too many of these jerks...
As I've gotten into music and have clubbed, etc. I've met a lot of jazz musicians who seem to embody the same general mindset. People who went to Berklee and studied under Dr. Armshouldershoesenshorts, the famous jazz guy who did all that stuff, and look down on rock musicians, rappers, and bluesguys as stupid little nothings.

I respect jazz for the level to which its artists invest time, effort and thought into technique, so that they can effortlessly breeze through chord progressions and tie them into other things seamlessly with their bands. I know very few rock musicians who invest the same level in technique (look, i don't want to start a rift between practitioners of different styles, it's just my personal experience and observations, my being a mostly "rock" guitarist) and wish that more would. The hardcore band Refused uses a lot of jazz theory in their songs, they just use fully cranked metal pedals and SG's where Boner and Black Cat use a massive Benedetto.

To each his own, one man's junk is another man's pleasure, etc. I don't think that people who love jazz are necessarily stupid (though a great deal of those that i've met are serious pseudo-intellectual art posers), I just don't get it. I do however get trance music and artcore techno, which is often equally braindead, it's just a braindeath that appeals to my ear.

Maybe it's just the Boston area getting to me.

[lalimacefolle]

As you might know in art, some people consider the actual art form as simple... But who started those simple forms? Artist who MASTERED all the styles and techniques existing (Picasso, Dali, etc...)and they created this new form to research new techniques. And people just think, Ok, I'll do some ****, and then sell it, without going through the mastery of the art form. It's the same with music, if you go to free jazz without mastering be bop, blues, swing, then you have no point in playing free jazz!

[PonyOne]

That could be a reason that so many of the people I hear arond here suck badly. They get so caught up in learning the techniques of FREE JAZZ they forget that there are numerous valid forms of non-jazz music out there. And that by defiiton, using the root of the style (free), you can't limit yourself to strictly free jazz. Free jazz is, like you said, comprised of an in depth knowledge of other styles, which you can throw together to create a new sound. But as with so man other forms of art, people wnat to sound like the originals, no new water flows in, and the pool becomes stagnant.

It's probably worse here than elsewhere; pretension runs high, what with it being so old money and overeducated. CAN'T WAIT TO LEAVE. Anyway... I found much of my sound from listening to and studying techniques from the east. I love the sound of old Japanese, Indian, Chinese, Korean, Balinese, Polynesian and also Middle Eastern and Jewish music; the expression really appeals to me. The feeling of woe and pain that sweeps over me when I hear certain parts of Japanese music and the jubilance that I get from, say, the hava negila, made me want so badly to figure out the way to play that style has left an indelible mark on my playing style. Then throw in some Deftones and some Tool and some me, and there you go.

[Zeppelin]

people are forgeting that jazz in the beggining wasnt that much about pure improvisation.. (example: glen miller band)
I think that classical jazz is a beautiful thing, however today many people think that if you play arrpegios and use different modes then you'll become a jazz player.
another problem with jazz is that most of the people who listen to it, dont have a clue about whats going on in the compostions they listen to. You have to know exactly every single thing which is used in jazz in order to understand it. Thats why many people hate jazz . Thats why i hate 99.9% of the people who like jazz. Its just trendy as hell to be jazz lover and useful to be one if you want people to think that you are smart.
For the same reason i hate modern paintings and all that post modern ****...

[Incidents Happen]

yeah but i like jazz - not always - but sometimes

would that mean you HATE me?

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
yeah but i like jazz - not always - but sometimes

would that mean you HATE me?

No.. i dont hate people for loving jazz..
i hate people for loving jazz only because it will make them look smart..
And i gerneraly hate people who invate strange forms of art just to show that they are smart as hell and can understand things that i can. like all those "painters" who draw black triangles or something like that and its supposed to be a genious picture

[friskynibbles]

<<No.. i dont hate people for loving jazz..
i hate people for loving jazz only because it will make them look smart..>>

Exactly baby, I HATE POSERS!
I used to work in an Italian coffee house and people would come in ordering cappucinos and lattes and they didn't even know what they were drinking. geeeeeeeeeeesh. but they sure looked cool when they gagged on espresso, or 'expresso' as they always called it.
Losers.
-Daniel

[PonyOne]

I worked at a gourmet cheese shop frequented by Julia Child, Yoyo Ma, and host of other important people. Talk about posers. SOme of the people tha tcam in there came in only becauase people like Julia Child and Yoyo Ma come in.

There was one woman who was a complete bitch, who acted like she knew Yoyo Ma when he came in, and was like "oh yes I loved the show at blah blah blah and do you know x and x he said..." it was kinda funny actually, he was all ill at ease having this millionaire art-poser pretending to think he was all great. He was quite thankful when she finally bought what he getting and then left.

I think that many jazz fans are legitimately into it, they just happen to be completely vacant art posers in addition to their fanhood. If you made a remark to a jazz fan that the Benny 7 the guitarist was palying was very nice and you appreciate the scrollwork at the top of the upright bass they'd go "oh, yes, very nice indeed" not knowing a damn thing about what you're saying.
I gues that's what gets me, is the pretension runs so deep, they don't try to learn more, because they don't want to commit the mortal sin of not knowing something.

[Bardsley]

Pony, don't worry, i didn't get offended or anything. You've certainly made some good points, Jazz clubs are filled with people who are posers, and sometimes I wonder who they are posing to - because there aren't that many people who hang around jazz clubs!
That thing about jazz players being more devoted to technique than rock players is right, for most people. A lot of the really cool rock musicians are people who used to be jazz players and so bring a lot of cool ideas to their rock playing. An example is Mitch Mitchell, who I think was an awesome drummer with an absolutely crazy sense of rhythm.

[PonyOne]

Yeah, I loved all of his stuff w/Hendrix. Haven't heard anything else though.

Another good jazz-ish fusion thing is Cake, they do a ,ot of great songs. The intro to "Jolene" is one of the most beautiful guitar pieces ever. If you can find an MP3 download it, it's one of those songs that sticks with you forever.

[lalimacefolle]

I love to do one thing in jazz jams...

I get on stage, play normal jazz comps (really cool quarter notes voicings, like a very respectful piano player) and when it's my turn to improvise, I play TV themes and shred my ass off...
People don't boo because I'm 6'3 and 300 pounds, but dang, I get a kick out of this...

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
I love to do one thing in jazz jams...

I get on stage, play normal jazz comps (really cool quarter notes voicings, like a very respectful piano player) and when it's my turn to improvise, I play TV themes and shred my ass off...
People don't boo because I'm 6'3 and 300 pounds, but dang, I get a kick out of this...

my guitar teacher does this all the time..
when he improvises on stage he often put in solos from different popular songs..

[lalimacefolle]

My favorite is inspector gadget

[educatedfilm]

Ponyone: heh... you've got me intrested... you'r doing what i've stated doing a little while... which is listening to CULTURALY different music... I must be honest and say i cant get my hands on much other than some traditional arab stuff... but my friend (who's the best guitarist, for his 18 years of age anyway, i've met), played a very jewish sounding peice... and i asked him about it (it sounded kinda happy and celebrational... congures up images of a jewish wedding for me)... he never got round to explaining it... Anyway, is there such a thing as a Jewish scale? or it a style that relies on modes and phrasing (kinda like celtic music)?...
What kinda Japanese stuff do you listen to?
Moder Art: ok, here's my two cents briefly... it's very lucrative buisness, ok? there is a large chunk of poeple of who buy paintings/ sculptours/ concept pieces, not because it's pretty or moving or thought provocative or whatever, cos it's an investment... I mean i have the Rocco period where it's cheesy pictures of gardens, or a woman on a swing or whatever, I just dont like it, but I have to give it credit.. Also art isn't about detail (dont get me wrong, if you see my work, you'll see how much detail i put into it).. Art has been wonderfully liberated... We are no longer poeple who are keeping historical records by drawing poeple / places/ thing, Cameras do that for us... and this opens the door for unhindered creativity... I like creativity and expresion in my art, and some of my favourite artist are Leon Golub, david hockney, Francis bacon, Picasso, Gris (and the other numerous great cubist artists of the time), Blake (both peter, pop artist, and willaim, 400 years earlier great painter not so keen on his poetry), Botticellu (there is no denying talent), grandma moses, mary Cassat, Degas, Eyck, Fontana (yep, the guy who put up blank canvases, a canvas with a slit... and i hated him at first, but if yo read some of the explanaitions it's pretty good), Man ray, millet, miro, gaugauin (altogh van gough really had more of an effect on me), Giacometti, mondigliani, rossetti, rouusseau ... I mean the list goes on, but the common factor is these poeple did some great creative pieces (be it commisioned or not)... and the paintings asking prices differ, because of how their prices are expected to change, not really by how they appeal... I mean the problem is it's all about fads... who's doing what, what's the new "in"... I totaly understand the too much money and too much private school air to these poeple... (and ok, I dont totaly respect pop artist, becuase of their atitudes where everything can be packaged and sold, and some stuff like yves klein's work, like IKB 79, wich is just a blue screen for love of god!!... but that dosent mean to say i dislike minimalists... there is some good stuff)...

Jazz: I admit, alot of jazz I either dont get or sounds like slightly different renditions of the same song.. but stuff like "take 5" by the dave brubeck (sp?) quartet sounds wonderful, and it's not something that needs to be acquired either :)... i do like alot of "smooth", I really like the mellow sound of a double base that can come out of a double bass... I dont get bebob at all.. I find it too percusive.. but to be fair i haven't heard that much... louis armstrong's stuff i get on with, and Rienhaert, and some other jazz guys (philonious munk I like, simply because (he and) his music are an oddity)

ps Any of you work up on line ponyone?

[Edited by educatedfilm on 03-09-2002 at 05:52 PM]

[skee1]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
My favorite is inspector gadget
Lalimacefolle
I will say gadget makes a nice 2 string excercise for
beginning students.
Have you used scoobie doo its a good one?

Mark
P:S It is fun to thro in some themes in your solos.

[lalimacefolle]

benny hill is pretty good too!!

[educatedfilm]

I am soooo sorry about that program.. it's something alot of birts hang their head in shame about... along with the "carry on.." films.. so sorry *hangs head in shame.. next time in a noose*

[nechako]

"it don't mean a thing, if it an't got dat swing".

[blackrose]

I've been inactive for too long...I guess I have to post some meaningful thought to make up for my tardyness now...

Anyways the diffence in importance between speed and feeling is pretty simple...they're completely unrelated. You can express most feelings at any speed just as well as any other speed. You can play at any speed without expressing any emotion or express yourself simply by playing at a certain speed. And you know what's even better? Neither matters! You play the most heartbreaking moving work of art and odds are not a single person on earth will get what you're trying to express and only slightly more people will care. People hear what they want to hear. You play the most ungodly quick shreddage ever before played and people just won't give a ! because there's so much music like that out there none of it has much individuality anymore. One fast tune is just as good as another to the audience today as a group. You play both expressively and mad fast? Good for you. Give the song a week and everyone will either forget it or find something better in their eyes. A couple of weeks if you hit it big. The only thing that lasts anymore is that hip hop $x!t you hear every time you turn on the radio.

I know this sounds all pessimistic and depressing, but it's not. I'm just pointing out what is important. It's not speed or feeling or skill or popularity but the sheer joy of making music that is a reflection of the person that wrote it (you). If you care about what is "better" and what is "worse" you'll never be satisfied with anything you create.You may be able to express yourself perfectly, but that's not the same as reflecting yourself. Feeling adds color for the audience, reflecting yourself is just playing whats in your mind at the time without discrimination towards style or skill. It may not have any feeling ,but if it's creation brings you joy then that's all it needs to do.

That probably made absolutely no sense. In fact I would bet that not a single person here got my arguement as to the difference between feeling and reflecting. That usually happens when I try to express an abstract thought through the confinement of the logic of language. So I'll just sum it up. WHATEVER YOU THINK IS BEST AT THE IMMEDIATE MOMENT IS THE BEST AT THAT IMMEDIATE MOMENT. It's that simple :D

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
feeling is not a ****ing gift!!! how can you bring feeling to your instrument if you dont practice!? c'mon! if you cant ****ing play, then how can you put feeling into it! think!

Oh yeah, btw, this guy is right. Practice makes tolerable :D

Oh, and why is it that I'm the only person here that has ever, will ever, or knows/cares enough about ska to post anything about it? It's a heckalot more interesting in my eyes than blues and jazz and it has just as if not more interesting of a history as any other type of music.

[educatedfilm]

hold on, I like ska... I will admit to me it sounds not much more than a collision of two genres, and nobody has really tried to take it to something new and intresting... I mean even ska now has the fakes.. personally i love bands like snuff...:)
ps: (Why fight the future? you'll always be going there!)

[friskynibbles]

'like a collision of two genres'
and a gory one at that!
i don't like ska :(
-Daniel

[nechako]

think to teach yourself to forget, let go and play.

[kingdavid]

In a guitar book that I own,the forward is written by Les Paul.Yeah,that one,very old and all.In the book,he's termed a pioneer on the electric.He invented a guitar called the log,I'v no idea how it looks like.This is what he has to say about this,uhm,speed feeling thing:
A lot of players make the mistake of thinking that if you dont play fast,you dont play good;I can't help but imagine if I'd stopped Segovia on the street and said to him,"I heard you on radio last night,and boy,you play fast",he'd just walk away.What impresses me most is when I play for an audience and they're so into it,dead quiet-just the icemachine running-and they're studying,listening,and enjoying what you're doing.If you look at the people in that audience and they're crying(and it's not with pain),NOW you know you're playing the guitar.You transmit and they recieve the message.
I couldnt agree more.And for a guy who bought his first guitar in I926(how old was your gradma then?),you have to respect the opinion.and this book I'm quoting was published in 92.
I think the point Bardsley is raising is that feeling isn't going thus with your guitar:
Wueiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing
wueiiiing wueiiiind wueiiiiiiing
wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuueeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiing
wueeeeeeing
:)

[lalimacefolle]

The log was called like this by the guys at gibson that first saw Les paul coming at them with a bodyless guitar (looking a lot like the small plastic steinberger, the headless ones). They almost kicked him out of the factory, and kept making fun of his "log", Les finally had to screw body parts on the sides of the guitar so that people would agree that it played and sounded great. Actually, Gibson called back the "guy with the broomlike guitar" when the broadcaster (telecaster a little later) started selling good...

[Bardsley]

Exactly what I meant, I should have put those exact same... words?... down. That's a good book too, isn't it, though it's a bit encyclopedia-ish. What we all gotta do, like, is to, like, FEEL the love... man. Sorry, I'm just having fun with this post now.

[educatedfilm]

that's from "the complete gutiarist" isn't it?
I've got that book too... :)... it's not bad, it's not something that explains stuff step by step like an exercise book... it's just content, and loads of it, like a text/ refrence book... or an ecycopedia as bardsley said...

[skee1]

Here's one for you guys to harp on!
This has been said by countless great guitarists thro
the years.
It is harder to play a slow song well than play a fast
song good.
for one thing you can get away with alot of mistakes
playing fast songs.
Now when playing slow songs you can't do that.(Think)
And the complete guitarist to me is the one who can
play any style of music and play it well.

Mark
Really Books are great but try getting out on the road
and playing music for a living.
Its not as easy as just sitting in your little room
and trying to play like your heros or readin Books.
No the real life is out-side your room.
Also i've been out there since 1963 doing it and i'm
still doing it in 2002.





[Edited by skee1 on 03-13-2002 at 09:15 AM]

[Bardsley]

That's true skee, but on the other hand, it's a lot easier to completely stuff up a fast song than it is to stuff up a slow one.

[Incidents Happen]

not really - you could screw up on the timing easier if its a slow song (depending on how good you are with time signatures)

[Lord Requiem]

What caught my attention in this thread was the posters name (Ex-GnR guitarist Slash's REAL name) and the first response which said something like "great solo's shouldnt just be slashed thru" -- I have officially died laughing.

In my opinion there is a time and place for both feeling and speed. However, you can have feeling without speed and be great, but you can't have speed without feeling and be great. Pure speed without even a little bit of feeling will always be pure shash. Its like driving 200mph without a steering wheel. IT JUST DOESNT WORK.

Great feeling guitarists: Angus Young, Slash, Brian May, Noel Gallagher, and DEFINITLY Jimmy Page (Wait before you flame me, keep in mind i never said Noel was a technically proficient guitarist. He is fantastic at putting emotion into his solos, even with his limited talent.)

Great Speed guitarists : Dave Murray, George Lynch

Notice tho that almost all of our guitar idols are feeling oriented. I don't know many guitarists that, when asked who their guitar idol is, go off and say Zakk Wyld or something similar. Sure, Zakk is very good at what he does, but he's hardly an artist.

Cheers

[FretSlug]

I think it's very important to play with feeling, but hey, if you can play with speed AND feeling you are absolutely great (Jason Becker's Altitudes is a great example).

Check out that song..

[skee1]

Originally posted by Bardsley
That's true skee, but on the other hand, it's a lot easier to completely stuff up a fast song than it is to stuff up a slow one.

Define->(stuff)? Great one!


Mark

[PonyOne]

Ed,

Sorry for the late reply... I know there is a Jewish scale but haven't been able to find anything on it and jsut my luck, nobody at my temple's any help... figures... It'd probably be either referred to as Israeli or Hebrew for politically correct reasons (to me, as a Jew, it seems stupid I mean it's from Jewish folk songs & whatnot, but whatever)

There are a pretty good number of eastern scales out there that are easy to find online. Gentlepersons, get your instruments...

Egyptian:
----------------3-5----
-----------3-5---------
------3-5--------------

General Arabic:
----------------------2-4-5----
--------------3-4-6------------
------3-5-6--------------------

Indian:
------------------3-----
---------2-3-5--------
------3-----------------

Hindustan (Indian, but from a different region)
-----------------------3-5--
--------------3-5-6--------
------3-5-7----------------

Hungarian (my g/f taught me this one, not really Eastern but sound cool)
----------------------4-5-----
--------------4-5-6----------
------3-5-6------------------

IMHO, probably the most beautiful scale I've ever heard, the Hirajoshi scale. It's from Japan, from what I've heard it's used in a lot of Kabuki-type stuff with kotos (traditional, pre-exposure-to-guitar japanese stringed instruments. Steel string acoustic guitars have replaced them in large numbers):
---------------------------10---
------------------10-11-------
-------8-10-11---------------

And the Hirahjoshi can be switched to the Kumoi scale by switching the fifth note from 11th fret to 12th.

Iwato (also Japanese):
------------------3-5---
------------3-4---------
------3-4---------------

See, take the Hirajoshi, splice it up and do some shredding inbetween w/really heavy distorion on a guitar with high-output pups, and you've got yourself one helluva solo that's a lot more ineresting than, say, another f-ing -0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2- solo like the ones that dominate hard rock nowadays.
I don't like it when people only use scales and progressions, completely unchanged, in music generally, but I think that they are often a really good guide of sorts. When i was messing around w/scales for the first time, I was still stuck in the whole three-power-chord-plus-solo on A&D strings mindset, and then I started doing all this eastern stuff and playing around, and it just flows so freely. Music is about letting it flow and finding beauty, not just copying a centuries-old theory and playing it in a new forum.

Hope this helps some. Oh and the song you heard from your bud was more likely than not the Hava Negila (sp? I'm bad at transliterating). It's a traditional Jewish song played at, yes, weddings and other festive things. When it gets played it's likely that everyone's a little tipsy, and then you all get in a circle and spin around to it screaming in tune to it, "hava negila" in vary pitches, etc. It can get messy, but it's a kick.
It's easily the most played Jewish folk song ever. In Israel there are half a billion techno, rap, and rock redos of it.

[Edited by PonyOne on 03-14-2002 at 12:15 PM]

[PonyOne]

oh, and skee, I think what he means (I certainly agree if I followed right) is that it's easy, if you're playing a really superfast guitargod solo, to make a bunch of "filler" sounds, or white noise, if you will. Palm mute, slide, bend, play halfway between frets preluding to when you hit the right one, etc. And sonce you're going so fast it sounds like it's all part of a well-thought-out solo when in reality you'e just moving your hands wildly across the fretboard and even screwing up a few times.
If you're palying a slow song and hit a sour note it's harder to save your ass (though it can be done...)

[skee1]

Ponyone
Yes i would agree too if thats what he ment by (Stuff)

Mark

[Bardsley]

heh, no...
I actually meant you are more likely to completely lose it and suddenly be flat out on your a** in the middle of playing. Of course hitting a sour note in a slow song is going to reverberate for much longer and have much more impact, but you can technically get back to where you were. What is interesting about this thread is the way everyone says things like "playing with speed and feeling makes guitarists great, like x" and they all name different speedy guitar players. It seems that individual listeners do actually think that particular guitarists play with feeling and speed, even though others can't hear it. Perhaps it is this: it is likely that every guitarist actually puts some sort of feeling in there playing, I just can't believe otherwise. However, with faster players it is harder to hear the feeling; you have to more attuned to it. So that less people think shredders are playing with feeling because they can't hear it despite the fact that others can. WHAT?! It's all in the mind of the listenr? No.....

[dj mills]

I think that when people play something they love they will change it enough that it will sound good the speed will come later besides what good is playing fast if it sounds bad

[river]

gosh skee, be nice huh ? bard seems like a nice guy
to me and if ya disagree ya could disagree nicely ?

[skee1]

River
Your right i was quite mean when answering Bardsley.
But i did delete the post.
Sorry if i affended anyone!

Mark
(End of Story)
Really i have a life! I don't intend to spend it in these
Forms the rest of my life or sit around and just waiting,
for a big debate i have to make a living with my music.
Plus be out in the world.Not just sitting in a room with a
computer talking about my heros.I'm out on the road playing guitar and doing what most of you would like to be doing.Plus sometimes meeting some of your heros.
Being i'm from Lafayette ind home of A rose ,Shannon h
plus izzy i have met some of your Rock heros already.
And countless other artists from all styles of music.


(Peace)

[Edited by skee1 on 03-16-2002 at 01:12 AM]

[PonyOne]

Hey man, you wanna talk about babbling.... there was a whole post there that took me like 15 mins to type that nobody acknowledged..... i am the king of all useless info and blabber!

I actually agree w/you, bardsley, in that to be a great shredder you have to have gobs of talent and speed and technique or you sound like a pissant; look at SRV, Hendrix, BB King, etc. Guys who know/knew how to balance speed with talent. I didn't bother to start attempting shredding for a couple years, after I'd memorized the layout of the fretboard and what sounded good, to me at least. I think I'm good at it, nothing to tell the grandkids about, though I'm sure some would differ in opinion.

[Edited by PonyOne on 03-15-2002 at 10:42 PM]

[James]

Well I've already made my thoughts on the subject clear in an earlier post, but here's one more thing I'd like to add. It was Bardsley's response about guitarists playing with feeling but people sometimes hearing that feeling that got me thinking.

My girlfriend very much dislikes Steve Vai. I love Steve Vai. I understand her feelings, she isn't a guitar player and to the non-guitar player, an all-shred guitar instrumental can sometimes sound like a bunch of white noise. Nevertheless, I sometimes I try and put on a good song for her to hear in the hopes that something out of the white noise will strike her, and maybe she'll be able to develop an ear for it. None of it sounds like white noise to me anymore. Each and every note sings out in its own way. I put the song "Windows to the Soul"...

Well she ho-humed it for a while, but I told her that there was an incredibly powerful part at 1:52 that literally makes me laugh every time I hear it (I don't know why I do; maybe because the notes hit you from nowhere, they're unexpected but when your hear that phrase you can't imagine a more perfect combination of notes at that point- steve vai sometimes has that effect). Anyways she really LISTENED to this part, and made an effort to hear the emotion in it and I convinced her that its not all tasteless speed. Sometimes it's all to easy to cast aside "white noise" when in reality there is something beautiful under it.

Just a little story, take what you will from it.

[PonyOne]

Originally posted by skee1
Really i have a life! I don't intend to spend it in these
Forms the rest of my life or sit around and just waiting,
for a big debate i have to make a living with my music.
Plus be out in the world.Not just sitting in a room with a
computer talking about my heros.I'm out on the road playing guitar and doing what most of you would like to be doing.Plus sometimes meeting some of your heros.
Being i'm from Lafayette ind home of A rose ,Shannon h plus izzy i have met some of your Rock heros already.
And countless other artists from all styles of music.

Whoa there dude, I'm not a no-lifer who just sits in front of a computer doing nothing... I record for at least 3 hours a day, do audio pregramming on my yamaha, and i'm learning the melodica on the side (don't ask)... I come here because I like interacting w/other musicians. I'm not on the road so to speak but I've played with other bands at clubs in the Boston area before as a fill-in; I just want to have my whole thing out and down pat before I go and metal the night away at a club.

I've met the now dead Kurt Cobain, Wayne Static of Static X, the bassist from Fear Factory, and that's pretty much it... I almost met damon albarn but they wouldn't let me into the signing because I didn't have the drinking armband from the club so I just screamed "DAMON YOU ROCK" through the door and he smiled, thumb-upped me and made some remark like "cheers, wanker" or something. I don't really get into meeting band guys like other people do, to me they're just other band guys, ad in my experience a lot of the bigger ones get more into the "worship me" mindset rather than getting in a conversation about their setup, etc.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by skee1
Being i'm from Lafayette ind home of A rose ,Shannon h
plus izzy i have met some of your Rock heros already.
And countless other artists from all styles of music.


Really? Have you met that Paul Tobias guy thats in Guns N Roses now?

[Incidents Happen]

holy **** this is a long thread

[Bardsley]

And not really going anywhere either, but hey, we have to post somewhere...

[kingdavid]

Lal,you're right;it's the complete guitarist.And you're right,it doesn't have a lot of exercises or anything,just loads of stuff that can be a problem to put together if you're a learner.I wrote the author about it.he never got back.
and bardsley,about this thread not going anywhere;it's one of the reason i wish there was chat on this site.it would be really good,to talk in real time as opposed to checking back to see what the others have said.

[blackrose]

that signature could be considered offensive. don't be surprised if someone starts bitching you out about it.

[PonyOne]

"beating a woman is like beaing a persian rug; you do it to make her more valuable" -my old boss, from Lebanon, on why he smacks hs wife around (no kidding)

ponyone in no way endorses this statement, he finds it offensive. but since this post isn't going anywhere...

[skee1]

Originally posted by PonyOne
Hey man, you wanna talk about babbling.... there was a whole post there that took me like 15 mins to type that nobody acknowledged..... i am the king of all useless info and blabber!

I actually agree w/you, bardsley, in that to be a great shredder you have to have gobs of talent and speed and technique or you sound like a pissant; look at SRV, Hendrix, BB King, etc. Guys who know/knew how to balance speed with talent. I didn't bother to start attempting shredding for a couple years, after I'd memorized the layout of the fretboard and what sounded good, to me at least. I think I'm good at it, nothing to tell the grandkids about, though I'm sure some would differ in opinion.

[Edited by PonyOne on 03-15-2002 at 10:42 PM]

Bardsley is not a babbeler this was a mestake in even me
even making such a statement.

Mark

[skee1]

Originally posted by PonyOne
Originally posted by skee1
Really i have a life! I don't intend to spend it in these
Forms the rest of my life or sit around and just waiting,
for a big debate i have to make a living with my music.
Plus be out in the world.Not just sitting in a room with a
computer talking about my heros.I'm out on the road playing guitar and doing what most of you would like to be doing.Plus sometimes meeting some of your heros.
Being i'm from Lafayette ind home of A rose ,Shannon h plus izzy i have met some of your Rock heros already.
And countless other artists from all styles of music.

Whoa there dude, I'm not a no-lifer who just sits in front of a computer doing nothing... I record for at least 3 hours a day, do audio pregramming on my yamaha, and i'm learning the melodica on the side (don't ask)... I come here because I like interacting w/other musicians. I'm not on the road so to speak but I've played with other bands at clubs in the Boston area before as a fill-in; I just want to have my whole thing out and down pat before I go and metal the night away at a club.

I've met the now dead Kurt Cobain, Wayne Static of Static X, the bassist from Fear Factory, and that's pretty much it... I almost met damon albarn but they wouldn't let me into the signing because I didn't have the drinking armband from the club so I just screamed "DAMON YOU ROCK" through the door and he smiled, thumb-upped me and made some remark like "cheers, wanker" or something. I don't really get into meeting band guys like other people do, to me they're just other band guys, ad in my experience a lot of the bigger ones get more into the "worship me" mindset rather than getting in a conversation about their setup, etc.
Ponyone
About the life thing i was really refering to myself
not anyone on guitar tricks.
Mark

[skee1]

Originally posted by Led Zeppelin
Originally posted by skee1
Being i'm from Lafayette ind home of A rose ,Shannon h
plus izzy i have met some of your Rock heros already.
And countless other artists from all styles of music.


Really? Have you met that Paul Tobias guy thats in Guns N Roses now?
Led Zeppelin
No i have'nt met the new members of his band.
About Axle i met him thro izzy a few years back at a party
as far as Axle he is a phony like James hatfield said
he was.
At that time izzy was playing with slash.
Last i heard izzy is trying to get something going on
his own.Now about Shannon hoon (Blind Melon ) he was
a Real singer compared to Axel.

Mark

[skee1]

Originally posted by Bardsley
And not really going anywhere either, but hey, we have to post somewhere...
Bardsley: i just got home this morning and did'nt have a
chance to answer your letter!
But i did take the time to read all your posts in this,
thread and i do agree with them.
About some of the statements i made about you i don't agree with myself.I really think what caused me to even
say such things was some of the medicine's i was taking
last week for a bad cold.You are not a babbeler or a
circle talker.
In fact you had some great points in all your posts.
This kinda learnt me a lession about taking meds, and
trying to debate with someone on guitar-tricks.
And another thing i;ve alwasy thought you have had
great things to add in any forum on guitar-tricks
since i've been on guitar-tricks.
Really i don't like to debate in the forums on here i
would rather just try to help some-one if i
have the time which i don't have alot of time anymore
to get on here alot.
Sometimes its interesting to read plus see how some of the
younger guitarists are doing plus what thier learning plus
what kinda of music thier into ect.
I think all the People on guitar-tricks are some great
people.
And Bardsley i'm very sorry for saying some of the stupid things i said and hopefully we will over-come this thing
and be great friends.
Thats one-thing i belive, in is that no-one can have
enough friends.

Mark
(Peace Bro)

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by skee1
Last i heard izzy is trying to get something going on
his own.Now about Shannon hoon (Blind Melon ) he was
a Real singer compared to Axel.


Ouch, that hurts.

I onloy asked cause that Tobias lad is from the same place as Axl/Izzy/Shannon. I agree Shannon was a greats inger though.

[educatedfilm]

right you know about GNR... is it true that Slash was born in Stoke on trent? give me a warning before you say yes... I'm not sure if my bladder can handle it..

[mc9mm]

I think this text is gonna be pretty long.
Just so that you know.
I have noticed that the hottest discussion here is the speed vs feeling.
I read some of the posts and didnt really care.
I've seen this discussion many times before.
And never has there been a conclusion.
But this time Im going to try to come to one myself.
Everyone was arguing back and forth who was the best,
the "feeling"-guys ex. BB King Or the ShredMaster
Yngwie Malmsteen. Bardsley posted that speed is always more important, that if its good phrased and well-written, there is feeling in it automatically.


Originally posted by Bardsley
Speed is always more important than any kind of feeling. I mean, what were you expecting to hear? Feeling really has to do with two things: the notes played; and the phrasing. If you play music that has been written well, you've already got part of the magical "feeling". Do not fall into the trap of assuming that to play with feeling means to bend the bloody g stringand play with sloppy sentimental sounds.

And in some aspects I think he's right.
Now Im a speed addict, and I dont mind it, BUT
I think the "feeling"-guys are half-right too.
Now I dont think that many people will argue with me that the masters of classical music; Chopin, Bach, Vivaldi, Händel and all them failed to capture passion, romance, pain etc. in their music. And they were certainly not
"bending the bloody G-string".
But lets bring BB King back as an example.
To some degree you could say that that kind of music is "bending the bloody G-string".
Its at least very far away from the classical music.
I dont like that kind of music, but I understand those who does. You cant just look away and say that it sucks.
I think its good. Well written, but in a different way.
So: very good, but its nothing I would put in my CD-player.
Sometimes its just too much of the "bending the bloody G-string". (sorry for quoting you all the time, but I just cant help myself :). )
But on the other hand it can be too strict and well-written in both classical and modern shred-style music.

So here is my conclusion:

All the Mini-Yngwies and mini-BB Kings out there can stop fighting, because its really like comparing black & white,
cats & dogs or coke & sprite:
It wont get you anywhere.
Feeling is not confined to one music-style.
Speed isnt only for death-metal-satanists-killers.
I say that feeling is in the eye of the beholder.
(or ear of the listener or whatever....)
I might feel strongly for a girl, but my friend doesnt understand why.
We all feel different. Thats why the discussion isnt going anywhere. You cant just tell someone to like something or feel something.
I think feeling is in (almost) all music.
Then some people appreciate it, and some dont.
I dont understand why my friends like bands like Linkin Park, and they dont understand why I like Randy Rhoads.

Now you might think that Im a coward for not having picking sides in this war. Well, its not needed.
For me, one of the great things about music is you dont have to pick sides if you dont want to.
So drop the discussion already!

Well, thats it.
If you have fought through the whole text I can only congratulate you.
Rock on!


oh by the way, for those of you who have judged Yngwie without really listening to his work (Like myself until 2 years ago) I can recommend the song "Flamenco Diablo"
nice.
nice indeed.

[Led Zeppelin]

Aparently yeah, he was brought up in beverly Hills 90210 though.

[skee1]

Yes Ed

And he also started this thread anyway his real name did.
Staffordshire England.

Mark

[Bardsley]

Hey Skee1, no offense taken, glad that we can be settled and that nothing gets in the way of our ability to talk about our guitars and the music we love to play. Everyone here always has a lot of respect for each other, and that's what I love about this site. I think mc9mm might have a point though... this thread is getting pretty long.

[educatedfilm]

ROTFL... you are mean led zepllin you should have given me more time... i can now feel the wee dribling down my leg...

Skee1: lol, did your medication have a budwiser label on it? hahahahahah...

[Lordathestrings]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
..Skee1: lol, did your medication have a budwiser label on it? hahahahahah... Pay attention, dude! The man doesn't drink anything stronger than Diet Pepsi.

[skee1]

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
Originally posted by educatedfilm
..Skee1: lol, did your medication have a budwiser label on it? hahahahahah... Pay attention, dude! The man doesn't drink anything stronger than Diet Pepsi.
You got it i can get high on (Ibuprofen)


Mark

[u10ajf]

Speed is important:
our appreciation of music is limited by the efficiency of our memories. As we listen to music the memories we form of the previous music fade away or go into storage so the sense of a melodic line may be lost if the line is too long. On the other hand long melodic lines are what interests a lot of us musos. For this reason it is often important for a musician to play at speed to fit in the notes quickly enough to remain active in our minds until the phrase is completed and the melody resolved.
On the other hand our memories are also constrained by how fast we can take notes in, to me a blur of speed is just a blur of speeds, more of a rhythmic device than a melodic fragment.

Interesting phrases often have a wide variety of different note lengths in them. If a musician wishes to include a great variety of different note lengths it may be important for them to play the fastest note runs very fast to ensure that the whole melody does not exceed our attention span.

There is a tradeoff between the speed we play at and how individual and pleasing we can make our notes. You can't bend/violin/wah/shake/pinch individual notes above
a certain speed. Fast playing is consequently less articulate and vocal in quality. Also the faster one plays the more of the time is occupied by the messy sounds of pick attacks and fret noise, the tone looses purity.

Some of the most soulful players I know of vary their speed enormously and consequently their playing styles are very technically demanding.

Also, I think the demands of trying to process the aural imput of blinding fast runs can be quite invigorating. This said most shred patterns are very simple which can make them melodically boring. Players who vary the kinds of intervals they use in their playing make their music more challenging to comprehend without having to up their tempo as much and are much better in my opinion.

There's a big difference between such people and your run of the mill shredder practicing metronomic runs just to show off. Personally great shreds do impress me even if they aren't very musical simply 'cause I know how much effort it takes to develop that level of technique but I'd far rather listen to (for example) Alex Lifeson than Malmsteem or some clone of his.

[jesse sutton]

i think everyone who joined this argument and took a side, has lost what music is really all about. whether you have speed or FEELING doesnt mean anything to anyone, except yourself. so if you have to choose a side, that doesnt really have a side in the first place, then i think you shoudl sit down and stare at your instrument for awhile, until you remembered why you started playing in the first place. by saying you play with feeling doesnt mean that you bend a note like BB, or that you sweep cleaner then becker. it doesnt mean you can play jazz or rock or classical, because none of that really matters.

i think everyone should just play how they play, and whatever results you get at the end, whether its a standard blues tune, or a rippin shred piece, you settle for that.
cause really the end of the argument is that speed is useful but if you dont really have anything to play, from your heart, while attaining that speed then there isnt any point. so feeling is always the most important thing. not to anyone else, but to yourself. and whatever you think it means then thats what it is.

PERIOD.

[kimbob]

Feeling and an instinct for melody are much more important than speed. If you can't put a group of notes together to make a pleasing melody then all the speed in the world will sound like so much noise.

[pstring]

I try to play at a medium speed without much feeling, and try to ignore the melody or anything else that might sound good....... I'm just not ready for commitment........

[TheDirt]

Give two equally technically skilled guitarists the same average difficulty tablature (something they could both easily sight read). Feeling is the difference between their two performances. One piece can sound SOOO different when played by different players.

[andy82]

The more I play in front people the more you realise "feeling" is more important than speed, cos when you play covers and it doesn't sound like or better than the real thing its quiet embrassing. I used to really hate those blues lovers and acomplished players who went on and on about "feel". Ignored those players for years from telling me speed isnt everything. Well that phrase is kicking into my brains now. But I still want to shred like a madman with whole lotta emotion :)

[kronborg]

I think both speed and feeling is important.

Speed gives you the opportunity to create the sound you like to. Speed is nothing without feeling, but feeling is much more easy to create if you have the right technique.

[aiwass]

Feeling is everything. Period.

Speed is more about technique and accuracy, not the music. Speed is, in essence, your ability to handle different playing situations, and being technically versatile. The difference lies in the fact that all good music needs feeling, but not necessarily speed.

Some of you mentioned that both are equally important, but I beg to differ. Speed is not necessary at all in a universal musical context. It CAN be necessary in some songs, which is why it should be practiced and mastered, but not all musical situations REQUIRE speed as they do feeling and musicality.

In essence my point is that these two aspects have nothing to do with each other, since speed is about your ability as a player, not the music per se, while feeling is the underlying meaning of the music, the deciding factor that makes it music, not just notes. In other words, dubbing speed a necessary factor in music would mean valuing a display of the musician's ability over the musicality and coherence of the piece.

Just my 2 cents.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

The very practice of speed must hold a level of accuracy and conviction...I think speed and feeling complement each other.While speed is limited to certain situations and musical styles,so is feeling.Keep in mind my idea of feeling is slow power solos and melodies.Feeling dosnt always result in slowness...the notes you hit determine the feeling.

[Benoit]

I was all about speed and part of me still is. When I started to record songs, I realised most people hooked on the simplest of riffs, something they could hum easily.

When I find myself closing my eyes to visualise the guitarist play his solo, then I know he plays with feeling. I can play relatively fast (after 11 years I should lol) but I rarely use my speed when I work on songs. I keep my speed for GuitarWar, and showing off to shut up little cocky guitarist ;) you've stumble upon them too I'm sure.

In the end it's all about dynamics for me, a song with all blazing speed solo is a not a good song, the same goes for a song with mellow feeling solos. You must use dynamics to hook the listeners and variance to keep them.

The hardest thing is to have a good balance of both and when you do, you just know it.

Listen to A song for Rachelle by Greg Howe, it's the perfect exemple. Well for me at least.