Guitar Tricks - U.S. Reporter Kidnapped in Pakistan Confirmed Dead

educatedfilm

02-22-2002, 07:13 PM

hmmmm... she is... the thing is though I dont think most of you would know where the highest rate of kidnap is! (i asked alot of my friends, and i got given names of middle eastern countries, or far eastern).... well the answer is coloumbia... secondly this is being used as the main centre piece of the "war against terrorism" propaganda machine (or "infomation war"as the pentagon likes to call it, what is it with them and misinformation?).. yes it's very tragic, and I certainly would have done something to save his life if i could... but it's insulting to see how one american journalist (who's viewed as an enemy by these poeple) gets soooo much media attention, when poeple who happen to have been born outside the us (let's be fair none of us chose where to be born, and certainly have achieved nothing in ) die without anyone batting an eye lid (or are brushed off as "collatral damage")... I mean this is fine example of your case being as powerful as the media that represents you... and in all fairness, the poeple who killed him never had their story put to us... For all we know, they may have excuted him as a spy, but we dont know...
If you thought this was barbaric, then you may be shocked to find out what's been done in the name of the american poeple in the south american countries... yep, "we're not in the biusness of telling democratic countries what to do!!" was the comment not too long ago about isreal from one of the US representatives, which i think is a fair comment... but what about Peru? Hmmm? didn't think of that when they helped to topple a democratically ellected president... no course not.
this is all being used (with lots of graphic descriptions, cos you want to get your message to poeple without having to biuld a story too much) to whip up the american poeple in to bombing Iraq (becuase remember kids, the worlds richest country bombing some of the worlds poorest country as PR is "war against terrorism", and wholly legitamate cause), and there was talk of this before even bombing afganistan (which ironically had been discussed in June 2001)...

Raskolnikov

02-22-2002, 07:24 PM

I think if they wanted to make the American people more interested in bombing Iraq they'd engineer something specifically to do with Iraq.

This man was kidnapped and executed because he was an American, a reporter, and a Jew (making him an agent of the Mossad in his kidnappers eyes, or so I'm told). This doesn't make me (as an American) think that we should bomb Iraq (though I think ending the Gulf War with the liberation of Kuwait was stupid). If we catch Suddam Hussein trying to invade Saudi Arabia or smuggle some kind of bomb into the US, well that's a different matter entirely.

I'm not so naive as to think that the people who did this didn't feel justified in their actions or to think that America's hands are clean of the blood of innocents (and many people are, I hate to say). That doesn't mean we shouldn't protect ourselves though. I also feel that "protecing ourselves" shouldn't be all bombs and bullets.

lalimacefolle

02-22-2002, 07:25 PM

Just bought a book "the code book" written in 1998; saying "world war three will be the one of communications"...

PonyOne

02-22-2002, 07:43 PM

Ed:

Don't be so naive as to think that Americans have no clue what's going on anywhere further than our outhouses and rusted out Camaros!!!

educatedfilm

02-22-2002, 07:47 PM

yeah... I agree with ya rask.. but watch the next step... mark my words (i was right about afganistan)... this is simply frothing up emotions... to get poeple hyped up, and not letting the feeling wane.. basically it keeps the engine ticking over instead of stalling...
Why engenire anything to do directly with iraq? simply tell people "I have seen evidence to convince me of (new guys name) guilt".. sorry about rambling... but I mean keep the military-industrail bull out of the papers/ news... I mean with bin laden, poeple were told he was giulty, and shown a few clips of him calling it "this blessed attack" (i heard the arabic version, and unfourtunatly it is accurate). And repeat it (as good ol; gooballs said, if repeat a lie it becomes fact)... and that was enough... I mean that's scary stuff.. how long will it take till this sort of actiong starts to go against poeple expression (peaceful) political feeling? I mean it's not something new... The papers did this to martin luther king... and Nelson Mandella (margret tatcher called him a terrorist back in the eighties)...
I'm in agreement that the poeple that are responsible should be punished... but within international law, and with a fair trial... look at melosovich... he's getting a (presumably) fair trail... how come they're trying to despratly rule this out for bin laden?
Sorry about this... but this (and the case of the recently released clip of the "illigal boat poeple" that was released this week, where it was a carefully cropped clip of parents throwing thier kids off the boats, to rescuers, so it looked like they didn't give a damn about thier kids, and it was used in a campaign to keep "such poeple out".. when the full clip was released, you see infact the parents are on a sinkig ship, throwing their kids first to rescures, cos they care) has really ratteled my cage..
(I hope no one finds me argumentative... i'm simply putting the other said to the story...)

PonyOne

02-22-2002, 08:01 PM

Oh, and... this is from my girlfriend... so if you get really really pissed it's not my fault.

America is imperialistic in terms of media and engineering coups here and there to support our interest, but then, so did the UK, France, Italy, Spain, Japan, Germany, many of the Middle Eastern Nations, Russia/USSR, the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Romans, the Kenyans, the Zulus, the Mongols, the Chinese... and we never sent an armada into a nation to occupy for 500 years and rape and plunder for all the available resouces. Not that America hasn't done bad stuff, it just, well that case can be made for every other nation that's ever held power.
Now, the fact that America has screwed up doesn't give anyone the right to kill innocent people. Daniel Pearl's kidnappers DID think he was a spy (for Mossad), that still doesn't give them the right to kill him. Just like we don't have the right to kill people who represent Al Jazeera and slit their throats because we think they might have met Ben Laden once.
Not all Americans are as naieve as you think. In fact, I bet there are a whole lot of Brits out there who are just as ignorant as the next American. We all have equal access to information, lets not bash Americans, everyone's involved (your goverment supports us and helped us bomb Afganistan).

(enter the real Ponyone)
Oh and, BTW, the sheikh guy captured a few days before the video was sent said that Pearl had been killed accidentally while trying to escape, and reiterated that he was a spy for Mossad. They were taping a second video to send out and had led him to believe that it was another plea, when someone came up behind him, grabbed his hair to pull his head up and slit his throat. I don't care what political, religious, national, whatever cause you're for, nothing givesyou the right to do that! They've been showing clips on CNN leading up to the part where the guy comes out (the throat slitting being a tad too gruesome for the general public). No escape attempt. Just cold blooded murder.

Christoph

02-22-2002, 08:19 PM

I haven't been following this story, but I just have to wonder that if Pearce was such a "gentle soul" and a "good husband" then what was he doing in Pakistan? There's a point when personal responsibility takes over, and going to one of the most dangerous countries in the world and snooping around while you have a pregnant wife at home is just plain dumb. Being an American and a Jew, what did he expect?

Incidents Happen

02-22-2002, 08:24 PM

sooo gross

educatedfilm

02-22-2002, 08:34 PM

yeah, I agree with you that nothing justifies it... but imagine, right, that there is a gang war (hypothetically)... and when ever a white kid is hurt, it hits the head lines... a hispanic/ black kid is hurt it's gets a casual mention on a radio show at 2am, nothing more... Do you see what i'm getting at? it gives the image, that one side is the victim and the other is the persecutour...
secondly what other civlization have done (more than 5000 years ago in some of those cases), doesn't make what's happening right... thirdly, things are massively different from the days of the aztecs etc... it was a physical imposibily to be responsible for the death of 1.5 million people (iraqis in the us's case, and dont even get me started on the vietcong)... now it is, and IT'S HAPPENING.. just doesn't get mentioned... just the same ol' crap, that Suddam has boilogical/ chemical blah blah (same old story), and the cheek to say they care for the iraqi poeple.. JUSTIFY THAT FOR A COUPLE OF CENTS OFF YER LITER OF PETROL!!! let's be realisic here, imagine what happened on sept 11th happening 300 times over a decade.. well that's iraq for ya.. and they're still pushing for the case for bombing... I mean these poeple are sickos..
"Not all Americans are as naieve as you think. In fact, I bet there are a whole lot of Brits out there who are just as ignorant as the next American"
yeah i agreee with you (i talk to alot of anti-war poeple), and I dont think pointing out a screwy politcal system is "bashing america" (unless you think the screwyness is vital)... and it's not "anti_american" to point out the flaws in the government, IT@S YOUR RIGHT! One new yorker got brandedan an "anarchist" because he wrote "american imprialism will lead to more falling biuldings"... How in god's name is that conpiring to take out all laws, or destroy a comfortable orderly system?

"everyone's involved (your goverment supports us and helped us bomb Afganistan). "
uh, sorry that's not wholly true.. the UK (and maybe germany here and there) joined in, nobody else did.. everyone else feared bullying (being it millitary /economic/political) and said they'd join in... so what's the end product.. 3 cruise missles were fired by the brits, compared to the 50plus by the Us.. The US doesn't NEED the UK by any means, it's just a token act to make it look ok... oh yeah, where have i bashed americans? My whole "crusade" has been against the US forign policies and the media that suppourts/ covers/ and glosses over these little blemishes in that Gucci suit and military haircut..
sorry about this... thank's for the input though..

Incidents Happen

02-22-2002, 10:05 PM

yeah man you lost me somewhere in there

PonyOne

02-23-2002, 12:44 AM

Why should we lift sanctions on Iraq? anything we give them saddam takes and uses against us. Food goes to the military. Money goes to the military. Resources either go to the military or are turned into goods and sold; the money in turn goes to the military. Medicine goes to the military.

So if you are lucky enough to be forced at gunpoint into saddam's army, you, not your family, but you, can manage to eat a meal a day.

I'm sorry if I sounded really mad, which I know I did, perhaps it's because the people you're speaking in favor of are hellbent on destroying my people (i.e. Jews). I'm not going to accuse you of being a terrorist or supporting terrorism... you always talk about people getting one side of the story... have you ever gone to http://www.jpost.com?

I've read the arguments to both sides. Listen to Israeli TV, get the statistics (I) and then get Al Jazeera's statistics (A) and then use the formula I + A divided by 2 equals probably closer to the truth. Both sides embellish, who doesn't? (not that that makes it right)

And I'm pretty sure my girlfriend meant, by giving examples that date back to 5000 years ago, that we've all done it. The Chileans did it 25 years ago, the South Africans did it... well they still do it to a certain degree degree, and then there was this little thing called the Khmer Rouge. And nobody really strived that hard to do anything to stop it for quite some time. We're a big powerful nation; like you, much of the world's populace is really afraid of us. We're probably the king of this hill called earth. And so when people see shows like Baywatch, Friends, and crap like that, they WANT to see us as the people in these shows: stupid, giddy, worthless. I don't know of any houses filled with six model-esque, great-looking rich kids who have nutty gags occur every four seconds. I've been to Venice Beach and the lifeguards are NOT like anyone on Baywatch.

But the world takes this... crap as a portal into the american lifestyle. These shows aren't any more relevant to American life than Monty Python was to British life. It's just junk that some people (I not among them) decide to watch every day after their meaningless 9 to 5 jobs. This is what I told my friend. And nobody forces them to watch it; no American With Shotgun® standng behind them going "Lookee here, barn varmint, watch this here show or yer dead, got me?" No, people do it willingly. If they don't want it they don't have to watch it. I don't want to eat meat so I ignore the Beef: It's What's For Dinner commercials here. I don't want to like Nike so I don't laugh at their commercials, no matter how clever. But not liking Nike is different than giving up on a whole society and assuming they're ignorant. I've was brought up to think being homosexual was unnatural, but I don't now, because I went out and made friends with gay people and realized that their love is still love no matter the expresson of it. It doesn't seem like a large segment of the world wants to do that with the US, it's easier to just act like we're idiots and hate us than it is to validate us.

I am sickened by Palestinian atrocities against my people, but I don't hold all Palestinians guilty. Those who support Hamas, I do not care to make peace with; the second we stop firing ad let people into Israel, Hamas sends a human bomb into a marketplace. But those who are equally sickened by the death of an Israeli as one of their own, I have no qualm with. I wouldn't have anything against getting to know a Palestinian, and I wouldn't even carry a gun with me (imagine that). And there are people who seek to make buds with Hamas and Fatah and all these groups but I am not one of those people. I'm sick of seeing pine boxes containing people's children being buried every day with the Israeli flag draped over it, and I'm sick of seeing Palestinians "martyred" by Yassir Arafat's foolish pride paraded though their streets. It must end and until these groups are destroyed and Sharon is out of office I doubt if anything can change.

[Edited by PonyOne on 02-23-2002 at 01:06 AM]

lalimacefolle

02-23-2002, 05:45 AM

Don't forget we talk about human beings. They haven't chosen where they were born, and they might be bombed only because some fanatic asshole decided he would make WW3

Zeppelin

02-23-2002, 06:37 AM

people are different, and they believe in different things.
i dont want to sound racist because im not one and as a jew i cant be one, but the muslims dont see things like we see them. (maybe those who live in the western countries are different - i dont know).
They hate the western world, - most of them if not all, and and they are trying to explain their hate by saying stupid things (like saying that america is handling a crusade against the muslim world).
few day ago i heard that the pakistanian P.M said the muslism should handle their jihad by learning and getting more educated. This IS the problem. the learn koran all day the day, and of course they are poor and dont make any money and then they blame it one usa and israel and the whole western world. Instead they shall do what the pakistanian minister had said they should, and then one day they wont have to hate us anymore because they will live as good as we live...
About the palestinian problem: i dont want to start the whole argument again, but how can you expect peace when one day arafat talks to the western media and says he want to return to negotiation and in the evening of the same day i can see him on tv, yelling "millions of shahids (suicide bombers in simple words) are on their way to Jerusalem"
I know that people dont want to admit it because he is an important politician and everything but he is seriously ill, and hes getting crazy. He is acting the same way that Stalin was acting in the USSR.
And i dont realy undersand how can you call him the "elected president of the palestinias" when he wasnt ever choosen in democratic elections + he is president of PA for 30 years, which is quite anti democratic as well...

educatedfilm

02-23-2002, 09:07 AM

Incident happen: sorry, i kinda started rambling...
I'll try to make this one more sturctured...(this maybe long)

1)"Why should we lift sanctions on Iraq?" Because iraqis are dying at a collosal rate thanks to these sanctions., which have come up with nothing (unless you want to consider lowered oil prices). Sudamm hasn't done anything to the US... When has he? he's done a lot to arab/ muslims, perticularly when he was suppourted by the US (yep, the people who paid him well, and armed him to the teeth to fight Iran). Sudam isn't capable of doing anything, they weapons checks have come up with nothing (other than one instance where giros for rockets were found.. which certainly suggests to me, that inforcing sanctions for 10 years has been a complete waste).. What evidence do you have that this goes to the military?
2)" it's because the people you're speaking in favor of are hellbent on destroying my people (i.e. Jews). I'm not going to accuse you of being a terrorist or supporting terrorism... you always talk about people getting one side of the story... have you ever gone to http://www.jpost.com?" I'm not speaking in their favour, to me they're as bad as the Us forign policies.. I'm glad you mentioned the Jeruslem post, because yes, I have... and some others... I'm also coloured, and i read some White supreamist papers, odd? No, i like to know what's being said on BOTH sides..
Oh yeah, I nearly forgot, Daniel was excuted because he was SUSPECTED! he wasn't given a trail, he wasn't arrested or read his rights... IT'S MURDER... Now, this exact same happens on Isreal... A palastinain SUSPECT is blown to kingdomcome, and maybe 6 or 7 other poeple with him, except in this case it's called "targeted killings"... Do you see the double standards? IT'S THIS THAT I'M AGAINST...
3) about the figueres, I usually go with amnesty international... and their figures usually are very close to al jazera's... Al jazera's word carries alot of clout because they are VERY fair... This is why they picked it out of all the arab stations (i mean there are other channels which would have done a good job spreading misinformation.. but why bother, Just tell poeple what's going on, and let them figure out for them selves)..
4) what's been done before doesn't make what's happening right, or acceptable something needs to be done..
5) about the palastinains : right, MORE innocent palstinains are being killed, right? (good recent example is when 6 isrealis were killed, 26 palastinains died the next night) So why is world sitting by an wathing? Because of the media... it's not muslim vs jew or whatever, it's rich wanting more, and poor trying to cling onto what little they have.. both use dirty tactics, but one is doing far more damage than the other.. secondly the palastinain economy/ education system is activly being destroyed by the isreali governemtn.. it's nothing to do with religion... it's about wanting land by force... religion is simply used as a tag. if arafat/ sharon and all these groups go the problem of the settlement on the west band (wich are illigal by international law) is not adressed, the question of a palastinain state/ or mixing the populations is still not adressed...
6)There are some great liberal groups in isreal (who i love more than the arab groups, simply because these poeple had the gall and intelligence to relize what they've been told is crap and do something about what's going on)... I mean the photo i saw, was of an "exhibition" of boxes symbolysing coffins... White coffins were isreali, black were palastinain, and what you see is a sea of black with some what sprinkles (this was done using actaul figures from 1999 i think, and the coffin were arranged in order of when they died).. I mean I would love to shake the hand of who ever came up with that... very powerful, very thought provocative, and more importantly very peaceful...
7) Why is arafat being made the bogieman? he's done well to control fata... and he can to some extent reason with the other groups when push comes to shove...
8)lalimacefollie : I'm glad some one thinks like i do... I'm a muslim (born in libya, now british)... and i dont understand this "my poeple" thing... I was born into where i am, I didn't achive anything in doing so, and I'm not the enemy of anyone simply because they're born somewhere else (no matter how the arguement is disguised)...
9)"i dont want to sound racist because im not one and as a jew i cant be one" eh? you can be rasicst what ever race you are... one of mest friends is jewish (well from his mother's side anyway)... his grandad is white jewish, and he hate's black poeple with a passion.. So he is rascist, doesn't matter that he's jewish...
10)"They hate the western world, - most of them if not all, and and they are trying to explain their hate by saying stupid things (like saying that america is handling a crusade against the muslim world). " i think you've been misinformed.. how many muslims do you mix with on a dialy basis? The US was very popular among the libyans back in the 60's and 70's...so what's changed.. Forign policies... and it's unrelenting drive for money. I've said this before, there are alot poeple who hate the US because of the forign policies... like 11 out of the 19 alledged hijackers are Saudi... THis is because the US suppourts the saudi regime for oil in return, and the Saudi regime has one of the worst human rights records... Do you see? I mean american programs dominated Libyan tv in 70's more than ever, and nobody really had something against the US then... year later, the US bombs libya (yes, another oil rich country), again saying they care for libyains (and then bombing a psychaitric hospital not too far from where i used to live, and simply saying "suspected terrorist blah blah" at the end of each comment about this... till they hit the french embassy..:)explain that one!
Libya also went through sanctions, becuase it was allegedly harbouring 2 "terrorists" (convicted in the eyes of the media with out a trail)... One of which has been cleared, the other convicted, but there are some unhealthy crack apearing in the firt trail. Like the fact witness came asking why their evidence was never used, only to find it had gone "missing", and was found again, perticulary the lock on the baggage storage area was cut off... which pretty much gives him a fighting chance being cleared... so was it worth making the libyan poeple suffer? ofcourse it was, they got cheap oil during the sanctions...)
11) final comment: I think murder is murder whatever sied it's on... what i dont like is this use emotive language and gresoume clips being used to tell one half of the story... We do have equal rights to information, but how many of us spend 2 to 3 hours reading news on-line? hmm?

Zeppelin

02-23-2002, 09:47 AM

ed: israel didnt destroy a single palestinian school since the beginning of the intifada how can you say that we are destroying their education system???
we are not killing suspected people we are killing terrorist
its not like Zahal is picking innocent man telling the media he is a terrorirst and killing him, all the people that were killed during those assasinations were known terrorists.
You have more efficient ways to fight with palestinian or any other terror? well we dont.. 3 or 4 years ago my family voted for merez on the elections which is a radical left party, today im in the right condition to join the "kach" movement which is very anti palestinian right organization that is against the law..
Somehow around 70% of the people here got the feeling during the last year that the palestinians simply not interested in peace, and when theres war there IS war and in war innocent people are duying.
People like you want israel not to react when theres a suicide bomber who explodes in the middle of our cities. So what do you want us to do? we have tried to negotiate with the palestinians but we all know what happened.
I was supposed to perform tommorow, in Tel aviv. it was supposed to be something that would be shown on tv and everything. the concert was cancelled.. guess why?

Open your eyes... there are people who cant accept peace as posiblity. i cant change them neither can you.
ouh and by the way you asked how many muslims i meet on a day basis ? the answer is about 10.. so i know what im talking about

You think that palestinian suffer more than we do because more of the are dying right?
dont forget that that is only due to the fact that we have good army. and theres no reason for us not to use the whole power (which for some reasons is not used) of our troops to defend ourselves.
and by the way can you explain to me why if israel is so bad and wants to occupy the palestinian land till end of time israel was the only country ever to give citizenship to the palestinian refugees inside its border in 1948?

Incidents Happen

02-23-2002, 11:30 AM

holy crap! deja vu!

[Edited by Incidents Happen on 02-23-2002 at 10:32 AM]

Incidents Happen

02-23-2002, 11:47 AM

personally, i think Israel should go out, kick some ass, then go home and 'fuc k a da wife'. the 2nd strongest army in the world is israel last time i checked, and hell, Israel usually just responds to attacks, i mean its not often that you see "an israeli fighter kills 6 palestinians' its usually ' a palestinian terrorist kills 4 israeli's', then the next night 'an israeli terrorist/fighter kills 10 palestinians.

see where im getting at? Israel responds to attacks, seldom starting the fighting.

thats just like the USA, we responded to 9/11 , so in a way the israeli people are kind of like us.

you can be whatever religion you want, its all one big book.

PonyOne

02-23-2002, 01:47 PM

Similar books.

As has been said before, by myself and others, no death is right. I understand that you're frustrated that Daniel Pearl has gotten so much attention where others have not. While the Taliban were still a big risk, I recall that an Italian woman working for a paper or news channel, also I think it was a French repoorter, were hualed out of their vehicle and into the mountains, where they were executed. Although not a media "frenzy" it still got coverage here in the US and everyone was horrified (I think primarily because the reporter was a woman, thus going against the whole "women & children" thing); I'm sure that the Italian media was pretty pissed off and it was big in the news when that happened.

When the 9/11 attacks happened, the Japanese media focused primarily on the 11 or so Japanese nationals killed out of the 3500 that died. Media in Arab nations gave the names of all the Arabs/Muslims who died, and also claimed that no Jews died, that they'd all called out sick that day. Not true. I personally know of at least ten who died. Every nation has its agenda, and every nation will pay attention to its losses and lick its wounds before the rest of the world's.

In regards to education... as Zepplin noted, the Israelis, unlike the Palestinians, have never bombed or attacked a school. Palestinian kids still go to schools. They just learn arithmatic with bullets ("Sahid has a Kalashnikov that can hold 22 bullets. If he shoots ten infidels and misses twice, how many bullets has he left?" real excerpt from a Palestinian schoolbook that an Arab friend showed me) and have classes in which they are encouraged to become bombers, and discouraged to think of Israelis as humans. Arafat is just as at fault if not more so than the Israelis for the collapse of logic in the pre-14 crowd in Palestine.

As noted, the education in Palestine, as well as a number of other nations, is mostly Koran-centric, which isn't such a bad thing; many schools in the US are Bible or Torah-centric. Unfortunately, all of these books are open to interpretation, and can be turned on their heads quite easily. When schools are funded by Hamas then everything in the Koran is going to mirror their cause. And if the Israelis tried to open up schools for Palestinian kids, gave then books, etc, do you think the Palestinians would go for it? Hell no. They'd think it was a brainwashing plot.

What saddens me quite a bit is something that one of my former coworkers was from Alexandria, Egypt, and devout Muslim, told me; he said whne growing up he lived in apart of the city that had a large Jewish community. His teacher was Jewish, many of his friends were, and most of the Muslim community got along just fine. They did up until this latest intifada; now both sides more or less live in fear of eachother, with a few brave souls not falling for it. It's pitiful how easily these things can divide people; that rather than being an international model for tolerance on both sides, communities just rift further.

educatedfilm

02-23-2002, 03:03 PM

hmmm... well the road is long and tough, but i think it's worth it...
Zeplin: 1) these poeple are not tried in a court of law and convicted (if this was the case i wouldn't be complaining). So mossad and co, are indeed , killing suspects... just like Daniel was a suspect to those poeple (he may have giulty, he may have been innocent, we simply dont know,. like the palastinains)... both cases are wrong, and I'm frustrated by the double standards... 2) when was the last intifada? I dont think any country can be proud at not having bombed a school for a year (or a year and a half). And you dont destroy an education system by bomb.. you do it by sapping funding... and putting such difficult conditions on the place, that anyone remotly qualified will up and leave... So no real teacher are around 3)the current way of dealing with things has made things worse.. simply killing 3 or 4 palastinains to every isreali doesn't work... the proof of this is the fact it's still going on, and also they're getting more sophisticated..4) i'm sorry you had a show cancelled, but i dont think most palastinains would have the oppourtunity to do something like this in the first place... 5) the peace talks... hmmm.. What serious issues have been discussed at the table? The expanding west bank (which the Isreali government are quite plainly told not to do in the Michel plan) was not looked at sufficiently... I hear about "concenssion after conssesion"... What were they? and to me why bother when they had clinton (with Madeline albright, who is jewish, Sandy burger, who is jewish, and denis ross, who is jewish and has served in the isreali military... these were the poeple around the table trying to mediate.. does it sound fiar?) 6) well the poeple you meet are unrepresentative, simple as that... because of their situations, it's like saying that all jews think that the arab culture is backwards, and showing you an example of 20 right wing rabbis.. I mean, i get on with the jewish population, and they dont mind me... 7)"dont forget that that is only due to the fact that we have good army." I've said this before.... We dont say The holocaust is acceptable because the germans had a strong arm... so why should it go for Isrealis? might doesn't mean right..8) isreal want to expand from it's CURRNET size for gods sake... to the isreal as it was in abrahams day... This is why all the arab nieghbours are sooo jumpy... Nobody has the right to take anything away from anyone else by force..

INcident happen: where do you figure on the Chinese and Russian army rate (and indian for that matter)? what happened to morals? Isreal already did what you said (under sharon ironically)... they went into lebanon killed 40,000 lebanies... what was the result? well that's where suicide bombers started, and 300 american marines died there... and now it's been cursed by that action decades later... and now sucide bombers are getting cleverer and more sophisticated, so is the current way of dealing with things working? No,the reason is that isreali government is infact using poeple like the settlers are cannon fodder, they dont care about settlers, just givem guns and "let the animals kill each other"... they make a good story for them to push the palasitians out... That's why outside monitering is needed (doesn't have to be the UN, just someone to implement international law)... oh yeah, put infantry against infantry... the one fighting to die will win (know by the americans from the WW2)... there is a small, but secret war, being waged on the isreali lebaneese border... and hezbollah have to film what they do, because it's denied, and you hear the mortalitly figures.. you hear how 4 or 5 siucide soldiers are sent in, with nothing more than kalshnikoffs and handgrenades, at the dead of night, and next morning there's 5 dead hezbollah soldiers, and upto 30 isreali soldiers (alot of which died due to friendly fire) (this is why you dont see american soldiers fighting the talaban, because they learnt the lesson from the war against the japanese)... I mean, this is a very bad sign for isreal, that the poeple they're fighting are starting to catch up.. and if you take the figures on the graph, extrapolate it, you'll see fairly soon it'll be 1 isreali for 1 palastinain... so instead of 6 dead isrealis and 26 palastinains, it'll be 26 of each, which is not good for anyone.. also about your comment about isreal always replying... There is no start for the currnet afairs, i mean everyone can drag the argument back 50 years, older than most soldeirs and terrorists... and what you "hear" aint too accurate...
if anything, the US should try an alternate resonsponse... Cos treating the sitaution is handeled in isreal quite clrealy hasn't worked.. I thought that was kind of obvious..
your not condoning the murder of inoccent civilains are you?

Ponyone: I'm glad you see my frustration... I just dont think it's fair, that by accident of place of birth of the person can make such a huge difference...oh yeah, Isreal has hit schools... the most recent being around the time of the intifada.. about your co-worker... that's heard mentality for you... and it happens over here, in US and pretty much anywhere... that's pretty much what i try to fight...i Mean the best example is how Bin Laden became public enemy number one over night, with out much explanation or proof... He may be responsible, I dont know, but from what I've seen, I dont think it would ever get past the hearing and into court.. Sorry if i sounded a little possesed earlier, I was trying to reply to lots of stuff, and wrote what i had to say... and my computer crashed... so i had to write everything again...
phew... I cant take anymore of these long long posts..

PonyOne

02-23-2002, 04:24 PM

I guess the main thing that gets me about Palestine is that it's politically correct for a small, unorganized, mostly ungoverned nation to attack an established nation, and not for it to go the other way. So in much of the US, it's more acceptable for a Palestinian to detonate a bomb in a packed pizza shop than it is to shoot a terrorist in the head while he's trying to blow something up. Here in Boston, if I tell a non-Jew that I'm against the Palestinian cause they'll most likely call me a morally bankrupt elitist.

A few couple things to note...

-The BBC and CNN both often refer to 18 & 19 year old Palestinians as "youths," but will refer to a 3-year old kid on a kibbutz a "settler."
So you get "Today, in retaliation for the deaths of a Palstinian youth shot in a protest yesterday, an Israeli settler was shot on their way to Shabbat services." It's not right, but that's a grossly biased report; why not just say a 19-year old palestinian died in a protest, and a 3-year old Israeli was shot in return? (This was an actual happening).

-Palestine retaliates to the death of "protesters"-people with bombs strapped to themselves or with AK47's sent out to kill Israelis- by sending out more "protesters" to get "murdered" in the process of "protesting." (suicide bombers to get shot while trying to blow stuff up).

I don't agree w/the notion that this war is unfair because over 2,000 palestinians have died and just under 300 israelis have. The palestinians are the ones who storm barricades and throw petrol bombs and bricks at guards with M16's, homemake bombs that don't always go off in the right place, and generally instigate the fighting. As was said, Israel has a military defend itself, and the world expects for Israel to allow another 2,000 of its people get killed so that it can be "just." It won't be just AT ALL while people die regardless of side. It sucks that so many have, but should we just kill off 2,000 people to make it equal? Just like Daniel Pearl. So what if it's getting coverage? Would it be better if he was British or Japanese or French? Would he be any less dead? At least it gets acknowledged.

And I seriously doubt that he was a member of Mossad. Much ofthe Arab world likes to treat Mossad like Utah treats Satan: every car wreck, mugging, terrorist act, rape, bad financial move and fart is somehow a piece of a Mossad plot to make the world Jewish. It's crap.
So there's an American Jew in Pakistan who speaks Arabic and wants an interview. What if he was doing an interview for an anti-American publication? Would he still be thought of as a possible Mossad operative, or would he be a righteous person who realized how wrong those like him are?

Zeppelin

02-23-2002, 05:11 PM

HUH? why the hell do you think israel wants to expand???
this is a stupid muslim propaganda... if thats what you think i dont think we can even argue.
comparing holocaust to our fight with the palestinians is simply wrong from any point of view. let me remind you that while jews were citizens of germany before 1933 and germans just blamed them in many things like loosing wwi the palestinians here with the help of the neigbhours started a war against us many years ago. its not the same at all..
we didnt take the muslim citizens of israel and put them in a death camp... while egypt syria and jordan did something like that

educatedfilm

02-23-2002, 07:01 PM

:)... Ponyone: hmm.. intresting, that comment goes bothways (i'll get the names of the poeple and the dates), but when a 16 year old palastinain dies, it's "young man", when a 16 year old Isreali dies its "boy"... so maybe the press are being blamed unfairly here...
"So in much of the US, it's more acceptable for a Palestinian to detonate a bomb in a packed pizza shop than it is to shoot a terrorist in the head while he's trying to blow something up"
Eh? who's arming isreal? Who's funding isreal? I dont think the poeple at the top see what isreal is doing as inapproprate... not when they're selling weapons (for amounts in the 9 figures)...
you forget to mention that palastinains are killed on the streets/ in their homes/ at work... I mean, at any moment they could become "collatral damage"... they're bombed to buggery by helicopters, and siged, and have had tanks drive through their streets... and it's made to sound like the palastinains are the one holding isreal to ransom. Let's be fair here, no body starts anyting anymore, it's just constant revenge.. Each terrorist will tell you why they're doing what they are, and you'll hear abouth them having lost a loved one (or several)... So really it's this "collatral damage" (where innocent poeple are killed, and this gives birth to a terrorist) is something that really needs to be payed attention to. So isreal isn't a blame less victim, being harassed by these kids who allegedly throw petrol bomb (i've talked to a lady who was doing humanitarian work there, and i asked here about guns and molotov coktails, and she said she certainly hadn't see any with the kids),I mean there was outrage years ago when guards shot dead kids throwing stones (in northern ireland).. Why is the norm in isreal? oh, and alot of those poeple are blown up, be it by bomb planted by mossad, or helicopter gunships, or tanks etc etc... So what did these poeple do to provoke in those cases? Nothing... The incridible asymetry in the fatalaties shows this is a very unfair war, slaughter would be a more accurate term... Except one side has a powerful media, and can show clips of kids throwing stones, or some palastinain giving the camera the finger... but you dont see the Soldier who killed the 10 year old boy by standing on him, and smashing his head in with his rifle butt. do you see?
the Daniel Peal case is very important.. because it's not just acknoleging the death of someone.. it's a tool. over here they didn't play the clip, as they just want the death to be know about and acknoleged, but over there the clip is played to the carve into poeple hate for these terrorist groups, so come the time for military action it'll be justified in their mind... My point is, that all this has come about due to the death of 3500 americans, but when 428 times that is done to some forign country by the US, it's fine, cos they've been told over and over, that they're in the right... How does this work?

" but should we just kill off 2,000 people to make it equal?"
hold on, I didn't say you should, but that's what will happen if things carry on the way they are... and who said it was ever a just war? it isn't..

Zepplin: my comment wasn't a literal reference to the holoucast, but an example where simply having the force doesn't make the action right... I'm not going to get into the history of isreal because A it's dodgy B it's not a justification for what is done on either side...
"why the hell do you think israel wants to expand??? "
forgive me if i'm wrong, but wasn't isreal a hell of a lot smaller than it is? So it expanded. Isn't the westbank getting bigger every year? So it's expanding. Also what's the map on isreal' money off?
my other comment is that the power is with the isreali's, They are far more reaslitically capable of stopping... if the palastinains stop, the west bank will expand, and the blows will be heavey.. if the isreali's stop, there maybe some opportunist little bastards, but the blows will be relatively light, and the palastinain poeple are more like to jump at the chance because they have everything to gain (while the isreali poeple are already comfortable, and who wants to share their hard earned wealth anyway?)... It's quite unrealist at the moment, but that to me seems the more likely soloution (perticularly if a new liberal prime minister makes it into office).. i do think it'll go the same way as South africa in the end...

Raskolnikov

02-23-2002, 07:14 PM

Here's my take:
-Palistinians are not going to sit idly by and let their land be taken.
-Isrealis are not going to let their people be killed.

Both sides are equally responsible for putting pressure on the other in the way that they do. Both sides are allowing extreamists to lead and so both sides suffer.

Christoph

02-23-2002, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by PonyOne
"Sahid has a Kalashnikov that can hold 22 bullets. If he shoots ten infidels and misses twice, how many bullets has he left?"

It depends on if he shoots each infidel more than once.

Christoph

02-23-2002, 07:29 PM

A trick question . . .

ciscometal

02-24-2002, 01:28 AM

.....I LIVE IN MEXICO......

Christoph

02-24-2002, 05:39 PM

Debes de estar uno de los ricos, entonces.

educatedfilm

02-24-2002, 06:37 PM

"You must be one of the rich ones, then"... Cheeky git..
All i can say is (few spanish phrase i learnt)...
"Tengo gusto de cabras también." dont ask me why.. it was funny at the time... I dont even know if it's right...
"Las cabras son diversión."
"vete a la mierda" I had to learn this one in case i went to spain... :D
"Tengo una ametralladora. Estancia lejos." Incase i went to coloumbia... heheheh
"No él yo, yo es pequeño." Incase I was ever caught doing something i wasnt suppoused to be doing (cough, cough)...
"¡Es legal!" to avoid those difficult passport questions...
and finally:
"tengamos un partido" just after a sucessful trip... through customs..
heheh.. I've just relized this maybe inappropraite for this thread.. hmmm. tough desicion.. should i post, or should i not?

[Edited by educatedfilm on 02-24-2002 at 05:41 PM]

Zeppelin

02-24-2002, 07:15 PM

Israeli soildger smashing a kids head with his gun?!
wow thats something new.. i mean i know quite many of them but i never heard that someone is doing that.
well if you belive that israel soildger can take his gun and smash someones head that is realy sad

Why israel is bigger than it was in the beggining???
The answer is simple: why the hell did the palestinians and their "friends" started so many wars against us???
example: we have ramat ha golan now, but we have it only because of the 1973 war which was started by the syrians

You like all the other arabs/muslim see us as some kind of monsters while in fact the arabs started all the wars in this region and the two of them that they didnt start they made israel to start.

Why cant you answer me the simple question: if we are so bad then how can it be that we are the only country in the whole world where palestinian refugees recived a citizenship in 1948???

Besides stop saying that israel wins the media war because we dont. just watch some bbc news or sky or anything...

Incidents Happen

02-24-2002, 07:36 PM

Israel- expanding? hahahaha! yeah right! they did nothin but contract! they slowly gave back soooo much land!

educatedfilm

02-24-2002, 07:57 PM

The answer is simple: "why the hell did the palestinians and their "friends" started so many wars against us??? "
Because it was not ligetimatly set up!!! it was forced on them, and at the time of 48 it was occupation, and it was their right (under international law) to resist. also isreal has acted very much like a lawyer in all of this, with incidents like the "withdraw from occupied lands", and then only pulling out only from a few and saying we didn't say "the occpied lands" when the whole thing with egypt was going on...
Hold on, here isreal has started wars... simply played with technicaliteis, and secondly more rescntly released Isreali papers have shown that isreal did start the 56 war.. the point is it's not about history that's being played with, it's about now... and secondly alot of war no one really knows how they started...
"if we are so bad then how can it be that we are the only country in the whole world where palestinian refugees recived a citizenship in 1948???"
if remeber correctly most arab countries didn't even have independence back then... they were under british/ french/ itlain control, and gues who set up isreal in the first palce. See? Also this doesn't justfiy killing 3rd generation of palastinains does it?

i'm not saying Isreali's are monesters, i'm saying the governemnt that suppousedly represnts them is... I dont understand "loyalty", and why everyone steps behind the president when he goes to war... I mean, he's running the country into a disaster and everyone is suppourting. (he has led isreal into more voilnce when he promised he would sort it out... he hasn't)
The BBC isn't that bad (even though far a while they started calling the illigitamte killing of palastinains "target killings" and "collatral damage", but some papers picked up on this, and said it was rascits to have double standards)... but CNN and SKY call the murder of isreali's murder (which it is), but the murder of palastains other names given by Isreali millitary representatives... now is that fair? Also the papers, had the head line "arafat says "go to hell"", when the full story was he'd said "if anyone want to get in the way of a palastinain state (or freedome of the palastinains.. I cant remember the exact word used there), they can go to hell", after it was alledged that one of sharons representative was being agressive ...
What they're doing to the PLO at the moment is nothing but provication, and the rapidity of the first attacks on Arafat's office showed that it was indeed pre-planed (that's what a british military specialist said on the BBC) with the excuse he's not arresting enought poeple.. arresting something is better than the nothing he's doing at the moment because he's been put underhouse arrest (so the low number of arrests argument is by no means ligitimate), and it's now going to be more like the groups he had control over are going to join in, and it will be put as Isreal having put an old terrorist under house arrest, and when they were attacked for no reason by these terrrorist groups who are killing lots of isrealis, so isreal had to "defend" it's self (killing 3 to 4 for every isreal's is simply revenge not self defence) ... both side have their excuses lined up, everyone is avenging one or something... And why wont they biuld a wall between the settlers and the palastinains to end things? Because the settlers are cannon fodder, poeple sacraficed so there'll always be an excuse to carry on, and so the settelments can expand into palastinain areas (also another excuses wich suicide bomber have, being kicked out of their home to make way for isrealis)...I'm not saying hammas/ jihad are innocent, but they're not doing as much damage as isreal is doing... Do you see it's not black and white.. it's all shades of grey...
"well if you belive that israel soildger can take his gun and smash someones head that is realy sad "
hmmm, that's from amnesity international late 2000, when the soldier who got found out by reporters, so the isreali military were in an akward situation, so they arrested and tried him... which looked good in the news, but the verdict came a while later (which wasn't reported, as the story was "no longer significant"), and he got six month!!! For crying out loud!
Isreal has only given back some land because it had trouble keeping them, not out of kindness... be it from poeple like hezbollah, or simply having gained too much land in not enough time to defend it... It's certainly not doing any favours to lebanon a country that it completly destroyed, and killed 40,000 of simply becasue they wanted arafat and were not bothered to do the ground work... Arafat never killed anywhere near this figure, and those lebanese had nothing to do with it.. yet this is considered a victory!!!!!
if isreal has the right to "defend" it's citizens then the palastinains have the right to "defend" their citizens... and that's how the terrorist groups see it.. So you kill innocent palastinains and blame it on terrorist being mixed in with them, then you will get more terrorists, and the cycle will continue. The very heavy handed isreali tactics are in desprate need of being sorted, as isreal doesnt have the right to "defend her self as she sees fit" when it means killing innocent civilains, and extra judicail killings... These are the main issues which are not adressed..

[Edited by educatedfilm on 02-24-2002 at 07:07 PM]

Raskolnikov

02-24-2002, 08:12 PM

If there is no voice of dissent in your own mind, are you really thinking?

Those that feel there is no hope for peace nor room for compromise should probably read this (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/vpr/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=330278).

educatedfilm

02-24-2002, 08:21 PM

yeah... you need to mix poeple (isreali's will see palastinains aren't a bunch of bomb making scruffy mutts, and the palastains will see that the isreali's aren't a bunch of "kill the f-ing plasastinains" yahoos. like what's happening in northern ireland.. I'm not saying things there are great, but the fact that people mix in the city centre with out too much worry, cos they dont know if the person theyy jsut brushed past was prodestant or catholic, in the end he's a stranger... and the fact they've made it against the law to ask questions about religion (or to try and find out)... I mean there is hope... it lies with the media though... if tommorow, the papers and the news started publishing the figures of those dead and shown how little has been acheived (if anything)... poeple will see simply accepting the hated stranger is better for them and their kids... none of this war is worth fighting, there is too litle to gain for what you have to give up... but each side is sticking to the argument that if they stop the other will pounce, which a pretty difficult prediciment... hmmm, it will get sorted eventually... whether it's within my life time or not is a different matter...
Isn't that artical the same as basically what happened witht he south african rugby team..

Bardsley

02-24-2002, 08:51 PM

Doesn anybody think that this argument is actually going to end up with one side convincing the other that they are right, and that the other side is wrong? I mean, I think it's been proven that both sides in these arguments that have cropped up are fairly set int heir ways - I am all for constructive argument if it is going to help but with both sides disputing evidence/quoting fairly dubious statistics that roll off the top of the head, etc. nothing is really helping.
At the same time, does anybody here think that a) Palestinians are wrong and Israel is blameless or b) vice versa? If you do, then perhaps some self examination might help. John Stuart Mill had a way of proving his theories that might be useful. He would go out of his way to find all of the evidence that would contradict his theory and his papers would follow a patternw hereby he would write one argument against his theory, then one to counter that. He would do this over and over, until he had run out of opposing ideas. This is an old form of argument that has unfortunately died out, but perhaps everyone here should give it a go. This is how I see it: most people here have come into this argument convinced that they are right, then set out to prove this, while ignoring whatever has been said by anyone else that may dispute their ideas. Is this likely to solve anything?

Incidents Happen

02-24-2002, 09:31 PM

good idea

trebledamage

02-24-2002, 10:26 PM

The fatal flaw with us (human beings), the flaw which will ultimately lead to our collective downfall as a species, is that we never learn from our mistakes. We have committed THE SAME atrocities throughout history. Look at the horrible treatment of human beings throughout history. The Chinese Dynasties, the Roman Empire, Colonization, Slavery, World War II, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, the middle east, the Philippines. I'm sure we could all think of many others to add to this list. There is one common thread that repeats itself. We feel compelled to fight these "Hatfield vs McCoy," battles in a perverse effort to preserve our particular society, a subset of our own species. Throughout history, we see someone different and instinctively fear their culture, their different appearance, their different beliefs. We feel the need to dominate them or eliminate them before accepting and incorporating them into our societies. We put rightous tags, like "our religion" or "our need to colonize" to rationalize these fears and actually get ourselves to believe that we are doing "what is right" or what is good. Before long two societies of human beings have cannibalized each other. Who was initially "right" or "wrong" or justified or whatever is completely lost in the atrocities committed by both sides. Ironically, our various religions, cultures, and ways of living have many startling underlying similarities, but more often than not we are too blinded by our fear and need to preserve ourselves to see them.

Our instinct to battle and preserve had a purpose many billions of years ago, but our world has evolved quite a bit since that time. Unfortunately, I believe we as human beings can envision and have seen evidence of a level of evolution where we freely accept others, but deep down we know that, collectively, human nature will never allow us to reach that level. It may or may not happen within our lifetime, but we will probably destroy our own species. We have the capacity to do so, and we have come within minutes of doing so twice already during the cold war. You'd think we would learn from these mistakes one of these days.

Incidents Happen

02-24-2002, 10:30 PM

i know the solution! marijuana!

Christoph

02-24-2002, 11:31 PM

You guys must be super geniuses to come up with all this stupid sh*t.

I say damn it all to hell and just play your guitars!!! Got any of that weed left dude?

ciscometal

02-25-2002, 12:29 AM

I´M MEXICAN AND WE DON´T LIVE, AS A SOCIETY THAT KIND OF PROBLEMS. I KNOW THAT THIS MURDER IS A BIG PROBLEM NOT ONLY FOR THE U.S. BUT FOR ALL THINKING HUMANS IN THIS WORLD. I FEEL SORRY FOR THAT, BUT ANSWER THIS...
WHY THIS SITUATIONS ONLY HAPPEN TO THE U.S. CITIZENS?

I KNOW IT ISN´T YOUR FAULT BUT YOUR GOVERNMENT, BUT WHY...?

I AS A MEXICAN I DON´T HAVE TO WORRY FOR THAT....

THATS WHEN I SAY: THANKS GOD I´M MEXICAN.

BUT THAT DOESN´T MEANS THAT IT DOESN´T MATTERS TO ME, IT MATTERS AND MATTERS A LOT.

ciscometal

02-25-2002, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Christoph

Debes de estar uno de los ricos, entonces.

WHAT I MEANT IS:

I´M MEXICAN AND WE DON´T LIVE, AS A SOCIETY THAT KIND OF PROBLEMS. I KNOW THAT THIS MURDER IS A BIG PROBLEM NOT ONLY FOR THE U.S. BUT FOR ALL THINKING HUMANS IN THIS WORLD. I FEEL SORRY FOR THAT, BUT ANSWER THIS...
WHY THIS SITUATIONS ONLY HAPPEN TO THE U.S. CITIZENS?

I KNOW IT ISN´T YOUR FAULT BUT YOUR GOVERNMENT, BUT WHY...?

I AS A MEXICAN I DON´T HAVE TO WORRY FOR THAT....

THATS WHEN I SAY: THANKS GOD I´M MEXICAN.

BUT THAT DOESN´T MEANS THAT IT DOESN´T MATTERS TO ME, IT MATTERS AND MATTERS A LOT.

ciscometal

02-25-2002, 12:37 AM

WHAT HE REALLY WANTS TO WRITE IS THIS:

debes de SER uno de los ricos entonces.

thats the right way to express:

"You must be one of the rich ones, then"

PonyOne

02-25-2002, 02:14 AM

I do go out of my way to try and find the things Israel has done, and I find many. But I find just as many things if not more Palestine has done.

The whole marijuana thing.... weed isn't a solution. It's a doorway to more problems (IMHO).

I don't think that I'm going to necessarily sway anyone, especially when i deal with people who are as devoted to their cause as mine. If I went to Israel and saw people kicking around Palestinians left and right, I'd probably move to the Palestinian side. I plan to go there relatively soon, primarily so I can try to form opinions unbiased of the media. Sure, it'll run me into the gutter, but...

The most we can hope to do is make a point that makes someone nod in agreement.

When it comes to reaction to things in the world, people tend to take side a, side b, or observer status. The reason I refer to Israelis as "my people" is because, though I never met anyone who was killed in an attack, though I've never been to that part of the world, by sharing a common religion with these people I have a link to them. We believe that our religion is the true faith, we adopt its philosophies, we apply them to our lives, and we live under similar, though not the same, codes: the laws of kashrut, etc.
The same goes for Islam, which has more rules, socially if not religiously, in regard to treating those of like religion as brothers (sadly, part of the Arab world seems to try and walk around the part where you're supposed to treat Jews and Christians as those of the same religion, as you worship the same God). The same goes for every other nation, religion, etc on the face of the earth. We're a brotherhood of musicians, regardless of our preferred style, or which guitar we use.

To me, though someone who gets killed in a shooting could have been someone who, if I'd met in person, I would have not liked, that becomes irrelevant when the reason that they were killed was the only link I had to them. If someone blows up a Jewish restaurant owned, maintained and frequented by Jews for the purpose of killing Jews, then they aren't watching for whether I play an SG where they play a Strat, or that I have two pet birds that I greet every morning when I wake up, a family comprised of two sisters, a mom and a dad, and that my fiance and I love eachother every night.

They care that I'm a Jew. I could even oppose Israel, that doesn't matter: they see this one thing that unites me with all other Jews, even though we are different people. I am just as juicy a target to Hamas as an Israeli soldier, because to them, my death is one less Jew.

I don't carry an intolerable hate toward Islam, Palestinians or Arabs. Muslim clerics, duing the height of Islam, would remark that they were just as home in a Synagogue or Church as they were in a Mosque because they were beyond that classification: they were people of God, people of the same God that these three religions worshipped.
Mirror this to the statement of a modern day cleric

I hate Hamas and Fatah and the people that run it. I question whether or not I hate the people who carry out the bombings and, to a lesser extent, even the people who carried out the 9/11 attacks. (braces for impact) Disgusting and abhorrent, yes: these people killed others for stupid reasons. That is inexcusable. I'm sure God has loads of fun with them.

I hate the people who take those in a bad situation and feed them lies that turn attention from how they're messing things up, creating a false unity aganst a front that doesn't exist. Hitler did it, Milosevic did it, and Bin Laden did it, and so did Arafat. Rather than taking the stance that things suck but real change come form within, they just pointed their fingers, and thouands are dead because of it. They take people at a point in their life that is not going well and tell them what they want to hear: "You are God's only chosen, you are the holiest, the most strong, most just people." Then they throw in their own part: "Those people are infidels, they are slimy people with their fingers in every pie, making sure that any slice you get is diseased. They're trying to get you, even if you don't realize it. You have to strike first. And if you can't get the ones pulling the strings, get the guy standing next to him, his family, his friends, until he's so nervous he can't pull them anymore."

Israeli resolve doesn't think that way. Neither did that of many other groups.

Sharon is a sick, twisted man. I think he should be on trial for murder; he did plenty of it back in his IDF days and he's just as much at fault as Arafat and Hamas for this last round of fighting (I must say I think Jews should have just as much right to go onto the temple mount, IT"S ONLY SACRED BECAUSE OF US, and applaud him for his tact, but he coulda chosen a better time, and it woulda been nicer if it was someone else altogether. Right or wrong it was inflammatory, the Palestinians view him as Hitler going into a Synagogue). After Sharon, Fatah, and Hamas, among others, are gone, the real peace process can begin.

Christoph

02-25-2002, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by ciscometal
WHAT HE REALLY WANTS TO WRITE IS THIS . . .

"This is what he really meant to say . . . "

That's the right way to say it.

Lol. Lo que sea. No me corrijas vato!

educatedfilm

02-25-2002, 08:59 AM

Christoph: *"get up, stand up" by bob marley plays*... ya come to da ri't place man...
I'm not saying the palastnains are blamless by any stretch of imagination, but the claim that they're doing the worse side of things is easly proven wrong by the fatality figures... when the ratio is getting close to 7 palastains to 1 isreali, is it screaming at you the palasitinains are running around killing isreali's, while poor little isreal is barely managing to defend her self?...NO!!!
I'm all for peace in the regoin, but it will never happen if each side keeps on saying the other side will take advantage and attack... what we need is new leaders on both sides... and some decent media coverage, not something that will sell or keep poeple tuned in through the comercail break... I mean it's true, poeple pay attention to the news when something bad is happening, but not so much when things are ok... and you tell people that maybe they should forget about their current ideas and open up to peace, they'll change the channel... So maybe the media has to be responsable here, and relize that journalism that sells isn't what's needed to calm things down...
I'm pretty sure peace will be reached in the end... as "liberal" groups on boths sides are growing...
Ponyone: heh, if you do some indepth reaserch, you'll see that islam, christainity and judiasim are sister religoins, and you'll be shocked (like i was) to find how similar judiasm is to islam, with respect to aspects like family life, women etc etc... even the hewbrew and arabic alphabet are sooo damn similar.. I've also never met an imam who said you cant treat jews and christains as borhters of the faith, and i've met quite a few in my time, because it's directly stated in the Koran, and if htey try to say other wise it's blasphamy :) (or "poeple of the book", the book refering to the torah i think), this is by no means a modern thing, why do you think that arabs took the jews of spain in with open arms during the spanish inquisition... I think there's paranoia on both sides really... I mean if an muslim marries a jew or a christain it's fine, no family members complain (other than maybe if the partner drinks.. but there's always like differeices in culters that lead to little glitches).. whoooah, hold your horses, the war isn't against jews, it's the palastinains fighting isrealis there's a big difference.. as i said religion is used as a tag, when really it's rich vs poor.. sharon has also created this false sense of unit too... you can see this by increased violence and little to show for it (so really he has also failed the isrealis, and i'd be surprised if he would get another term in office).. also i dont think you understand what the terrorist are saying.. they're not tragetting "infidels"... They're targetting what they see as occupation (it's not right, and neither is targetting suspects in high density civilain areas, or biulding roads through palastian areas for settlers, which is inflamatory and not talked about).. We dont know how isreali resolve works, because by the time we hear about something it's been through so many spin doctors no one knows their backside from their elbow.. peace will only happen if you put the hope into poeple's hearts.. it could happen now if poeple are shown that yes it is possible, and that BOTH sides can gain from it.. not that "why should we, when they...." arguemnt that both sides use...
I mean through debates like this i've learned some useful things, like the fact that you'r 18 you do your year's service in the isreali army, which would explain why isrealis really dont like kids protesting/ throwing stones... cos these kids aren't killing isrealis in the streets of telaviv... but parents really fear for their kids safety.. SO i'm begging to understand more isreali thinking (although i cannot justify it)...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 02-25-2002 at 08:24 AM]

Zeppelin

02-25-2002, 04:29 PM

The bottom line is: Yes we are kicking their asses down
BUT who started the intifada??? i know that you probably think people say only because they dont like palestinians or something like that, but our mosad and the american and the europeans' intelligence services admit that it was started by the palestinians... so i belive all those smart people and i guess i can sleep at night without any problem when i know there are hundreds of palestinas who are dead or hurt in any way, because they psychotic leader decided he could get a country by a war...
Besides you are talking about revenge: well revenge it is .. so what??? when everyday we see our people exploding in buses and pizzerias why shouldnt we be hungry for blood and seeking revenge?

Yes i know that our goverment is doing many stupid things, but at least you dont hear ariel sharon saying something like "millions of shahids are on their way to jerusalem" and yaser arafat says it every day...

About sharon being a psycho: give me a break... the guy who actualy comanded the phalanxes in sabra and shatilla was a minister in the lebanese government few years later..

by the way ed: you said that most of those countries werent even independent: Simply not true. i dont think that a colony could organize its own army and send it to fight against someone and we had 6 armies fighting here against us. all those countries were independent, the problem was that they didnt fight to help the palestinians but in order to expand over israel...

Yes i cant prove you im right and your wrong, but as long as i know that im right i dont care about amnisty and all the other stupid people around the world.