Why learn theory?

[chris mood]

This passage was in a book I'm reading (Jazz theory resource by Bert Ligon). I thought he summed it up pretty good so I thought I'd share it w/you and leave it open for discussion. enjoy!

What about those students who define music as "playing what you feel" and often shun theory discussions? Art can express feelings. Without some knowledge these students wander about musically and consequently express very little. There are many skills to be mastered. I am reminded of something said by the great baseball philosopher Yogi Berra, " if you don't know where you are going you might wind up someplace else". Learning theory can give these students some direction and goals so they wind up playing what they feel instead of playing something else. As a writer studies grammer and vocabulary, an improviser and composer studies music theory: to find and master the tools necessary for the goal of personal expression.
A musician who only wants to "play what he hears" or "play what he feels" already has an idea about notes that sound good in a musical context. That idea is music theory.

[friskynibbles]

amen.
needa know where the damn notes are and what goes with what!
daniel *the wannabe*

[lalimacefolle]

The problem is that some people that lack talent take the tools for the goal they try to reach.

They try to master theory and then write songs that show how good they are at "pitch axis" for example...

I consider that theory comes after creation and imagination in art. It helps a lot so that you understand what your brain tries to tell you musically, but I don't think you should start your song by going."Ok, I'm gonna write a lydian melody..."

[Christoph]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
I don't think you should start your song by going."Ok, I'm gonna write a lydian melody..."

Why not? I do that all the time.

You can't be creative unless you know what the hell you're doing. (I think that basically sums up what CM was saying) If you don't know anything about theory you're just gunna end up with a bunch of miscellaneous snippits that sound like crap when put together.

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by Christoph

You can't be creative unless you know what the hell you're doing.

Wow, sorry, but that the biggest mistake I have seen written on this board. Creativity and knowledge are two different stuff, and usually, there are two kinds of people. Those who create, and don't understand what they have done (Allan HOLDSWORTH is one of them, as Django) and people who try to understand what they have done (musicologists, and 95 percent of musicians worldwide)

Mc Laughlin put it this way 'learn everything, then forget it all'
Creativity doesn't involve knowledge, analysis does. Musicians are not analysts...

[Lordathestrings]

I take the position that music theory is like the vocabulary of the language we call music. You can't express profound feelings well, unless you have the 'words' to express them with.

It is possible to stumble into effective progressions, (my lack of knowledge condemns me to this approach), but I suspect this is the musical equivalent of puting 1000 monkeys in a room full of typwriters, and waiting for them to write "War And Peace".

[friskynibbles]

i use my theory knowledge to help me express my emotions and set the mood.
if i didn't know what worked, then i would spend days trying to find something that i would have known before.
-Daniel

[Benoit]

I'm just starting to learn some music theory which was totally absent in my guitar playing. Been playing for ten years.

I didn't know and still don't know in what key I play when I do a solo. I just let it go. Most of the time I get something ok, I'm not the best soloist here but not knowing theory never stopped me from creating.

I just know when it sounds bad and when it's sounds good.

So I agree with Lalimacefolle but I must say a little theory the first year I played would have help me get where I wanted faster.

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by Benoit
So I agree with Lalimacefolle but I must say a little theory the first year I played would have help me get where I wanted faster.

That's exactly my point. You'll see that now that you have developed your taste and hear, learning theory will make you take giant leaps. Will it gives you more creativity? I doubt it. Will it help you go faster when you create, and diversify what comes out of your head? Totally.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
. . . but that the biggest mistake I have seen written on this board. Creativity and knowledge are two different stuff, and usually, there are two kinds of people.

I think we are having some difficulty with semantics here. From my point of view, creativity is taking what you know and putting it together in an original way. (this applies to music, art, architecture, science, computer programming, etc) I've never really heard of any of those geezers that you mentioned, but whether or not they realized it, they were using theory to compose. Just like you might be able to paint an amazing picture without knowing anything about perspective, light, or color through sheer dumb luck or intuition, you can play the guitar and compose without knowing or using theory. But just as the painter who doesn't know any artistic principles is unwittingly using them in his work, so does the guitarist/musician who plays without knowing theory.

You're still using it, so you might as well learn it. It'll make things a lot easier in the long run.

[lalimacefolle]

I actually teach music, but I see kids that are put off music everyday because we try to ram theory down their throat instead of letting their creativity flow.

You should check out Django REINDHART greatest Jazz guitarist ever, and Allan HOLDSWORTH, no word can say how scary he is... http://www.gnarlygeezer.com/music.asp

[river]

ive found theory to be a wonderful thing. it gives me
games to play with my music. its important to simply
be creative... hit wutever notes feel good...turn up
the effects n wham away ...but without understanding
theory you will find yourself 'cornered' very often .
its always nice to be able to reach into your bag of
tricks and find it full. havent we all played with
great creative talent but who couldnt bring it all
together on a regular basis ? guitarism is a lifelong
endeavor. learn everything and practice lots of different
stuff...the only harm in learnin theory is that you will
learn how sparse your bag of tricks had been( and you
will cringe at your old recordings i bet too )

[chris mood]

I think theory is only going to expand your creativity. While most people can easily hear major scales, pentatonics, and blues scales, and create w/them without any theoretical knowledge, how many people are born with the natural intuition to hear whole tone or diminished scales and be able to apply them in a musical manor.
I know....Allen Holdsworth, Django, and Charlie Parker! But there a small part of the population...the rest of us mere mortals are forced to find alternative ways of reaching such profeciency.(and hopefully before we reach 65 and arthritis sets in)

[Lordathestrings]

This wonderful piece of music was written as an exercise, shifting the melody line and counterparts around among the sections of the orchestra as it progresses. If you are too tightly focused on theory, you quickly recognize the pattern, and lose most of the joy that intuitively creative types experience from it.

[lalimacefolle]

Bach's "the well tempered keyboard" (my translation might be off) was written as a exercice too, just like the "art of the fugue" but this guy had creativity, so those exercices just sound awesome...

[chris mood]

A lot of Bachs' stuff sounds very mathematical to me, but there's nothing wrong with it, I enjoy listening and performing his music.
Too write as much music as he did in a lifetime ( I think it was nine hundred and some pieces) he had to have some sort of formula.

[Lordathestrings]

Originally posted by chris mood
... To write as much music as he did in a lifetime ( I think it was nine hundred and some pieces) he had to have some sort of formula. I read somewhere that he used a system called hexachord. Dunno what it is, or how its applied.

[Christoph]

Hexachords, eh? Better ask Azrael about them. He tried to explain the formula to me over messenger, but it didn't work out too well.

[pstring]

On the creativity vs knowledge debate, Bach and Mozart were both known as incredible improvisers in their day and could go on for hours, I like the analogy to painting, if you painted only with 3 colors your whole life, wouldn't be a shock to see someone painting who used all the colors and knew how to mix paint, I once met a guy who said he could only play in A or C, what if Mozart's dad had been a street sweeper? I don't think full creativity can be unleashed without a good knowledge base, many famous guitarists that are self taught usally wind up bemoaning the lack of knowledge eventually, ignorance is a hard case to argue, except maybe on a guitar forum late at night

[lalimacefolle]

There is a difference between ignorance and being spontaneous...

I know I might sound weird, but I know theory (I teach music) I think it is a fantastic tool, that it develops things that you wouldn't have come up with if you were ignorant and everything, but let's take the painting example:

One guy is an amazing painter, he only has the money to buy red and blue. His art is so cool everyone loves it, buy it and he becomes rich. He can now have all the money he needs. So he paints even greater things, with awesome colors...

Another guy paints stuff but he is mediocre. He wins 20000 at a lottery. He then buys all the colors, and does paintings very colorful. Other painters love the colors on his paintings, they wish they could do the same with theirs.

The difference between the 2? The first one has something to say, and colors (theory) expands the realm of possibilities. The other one is just some John Smith, and his paintings remain what they are, colors on a canvas (or in music, exercices, or shred music, among others)

I hope I have made my point clearer...

[skee1]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
The problem is that some people that lack talent take the tools for the goal they try to reach.

They try to master theory and then write songs that show how good they are at "pitch axis" for example...

I consider that theory comes after creation and imagination in art. It helps a lot so that you understand what your brain tries to tell you musically, but I don't think you should start your song by going."Ok, I'm gonna write a lydian melody..."

Lalimacefolle i don't think your making any sense here!
If your just starting out on guitar plus know,
nothing about the guitar how can you create any-thing?
(Theory has to come first even if it is basic theory,
even a self taught guitar player is useing some theory,
if he or she is playing music on thier guitar.
(Creation comes after Theory) If you can't play music.
you can't create later down the road.
Mark

[lalimacefolle]

don't make me say what I didn't say, of course, we all know basic theory, major, minor, scales, modes maybe, but come on, we are talking about advanced concepts here (or maybe I didn't get the thread).

By the way, the first time I played 'smoke on the water', one finger, one string, I didn't even know the word theory...

[skee1]

How much Theory do you really need to play the guitar?
I would say if your going to write songs ect then,
you need to learn all the Theory you can learn.


Mark

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by skee1
if your going to write songs ect then,
you need to learn all the Theory you can learn.

That's what I think is wrong with theory, you DON'T NEED THEORY TO CREATE SONGS. People get pissed off because of lame musicians on the radio, but hey, they do write songs that speak to most people, and don't know jack about modes, tetrachords, pitch axis or dodecaphonism...

[skee1]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
don't make me say what I didn't say, of course, we all know basic theory, major, minor, scales, modes maybe, but come on, we are talking about advanced concepts here (or maybe I didn't get the thread).

By the way, the first time I played 'smoke on the water', one finger, one string, I didn't even know the word theory...

(Knowledge=Theory)
(Creativity comes after Theory)

When you played smoke on the water you was using some
music theory plus knowledge you wasn't creating!
and thats my point.

Mark

[lalimacefolle]

I'm still convinced of what I say, it is proved everyday by artists.

[skee1]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
Originally posted by skee1
if your going to write songs ect then,
you need to learn all the Theory you can learn.

That's what I think is wrong with theory, you DON'T NEED THEORY TO CREATE SONGS. People get pissed off because of lame musicians on the radio, but hey, they do write songs that speak to most people, and don't know jack about modes, tetrachords, pitch axis or dodecaphonism...

Really in a way your useing theory to create songs,
if your playing music.
Every body that plays the guitar is useing some,
form of theory if thier playing music.

Mark

[skee1]

Yes i'll admit i am a self taught guitarist that didn't
get into music theory untill i started teaching guitar.
If i had to do it all over again i would do it the same,
way because of developing my ear plus playing my guitar,
with feeling and not sounding like i'm playing from,
paper.(I can't teach a student to play with a feeling,
i think its a gift!(Plus i payed my dues thro the years)
When i play music i play with my feelings.
I don't think of scales,modes,ect i know what the note,
is going to sound like before i hit it.
When i started playing the guitar i learnt the root notes ,
on the finger board by learning alot of chords in all,
thier octaves.But also learnt the chords that went with each key,so i could transpose songs to other keys.
I also got around some great guitarists thro the years and stole everything i could.I never play a lick the,
same way twice.Also i hate labels on music like metal,
jazz,blues,rock,country,ect its all just music to me.
And thats what i do is just play music.

Mark
Also i use a b-bender which i think is great for,
all styles of music plus droped G droped D tuneings ect

(anyway peace)

[lalimacefolle]

I could have written the same post, word for word...

[trebledamage]

I'll point to the same argument that I always seem to make when this topic comes up in a post. Why limit yourself as a musician? Music theory is the basis for music composition. While you don't have to know every little detail about the intricacies of music, knowledge of music theory will make you a better musician, a better song writer, etc....