Gibson SG pickups

[Benoit]

I got a Gibson SG and I'm looking into changing pickups.

The problem is I know close to nothing about pickups. Well, in fact I know NOTHING about pickups.

What I can say is that I got a double beige pickup close to the bridge and a single black one close to the fretboard.

Now the problem I got is that the double one is too high and I can't push it down. It got some metal brakets under it and the body of the SG is really not deep enough. It gives me too much bass in my sound.

I play mostly metal but I would like to be able to have a good clean sound too.

What is the best pickup I should buy. I intend to change both I have. This is a 1967 and let's just say it got some milage on it.

Anybody can help me out?

[James8831]

Personally, I wouldn't consider tinkering with a 67 SG myself! :) - It's a real Gibson,right?

I'd strongly suggest that you take it to the best tech in town and let them advise you. From what you say it seems that someone has put a (P90?) single coil at the neck and a replacement humbucker at the brige - especially if you cant get it low enough.

What i would do is to check the serial number, get it valued
and then have it changed back to the original (type of)pickups and either get it seriously insured or sell it ;)

I'm suggesting this mainly because firstly old Gibsons have a great desirabilty (probably because the necks break easilly),secondly they usually have fantastic tone because of the (higher?) quality woods used (in combination with their electronics) and thirdly because i'm jealous :D.


Tony Iommi, I beleive, used a standard SG in Black Sabbath so i guess you've got a good metal tone with standard pickups. Also a certain Mr Young from a small Australian popular beat combo??

I'm guessing that their guitars weren't heavilly modified when they started with them.

I'm guessing the stock PU equivalents will be Gibson 496/490/498 "Paf" humbuckers.

Sounds a nice piece.

Good Luck.

[Benoit]

Well you know your gibson!

The neck has in fact been broken once, I guess it's true the necks are fragile.

I bought it used at a small guitar shop 8 years ago. It's in bad shape. I always wanted to restore it but I don't trust the techs in my town. I'm from a small 30 000 souls town and I'm about a 6 hours drive away from a good technician.

I'll be honest, even if it's in bad shape I'm too afraid to let someone fool around with it. So it probably doesn't have a great value on the market.

I'll probably check for original type pickups.

I just checked the serial like you suggested. A good thing I did, the guy who sold it to me didn't look very far.

It would seem like I don't have a 67 but a 74 or 75 since in the back of the neck it's printed 400 047 and MADE IN USA. Ouch!

The thing is I can't figure out which model it is since It porbably as been modified a lot.

Here's a small description. Original color would be cherry, as been changed to dark wood. 2 tone, 2 volumes, three way switch. Chrome hardware. Pickguard probable has been changed. 22 fret with pearl block inlay. Gibson written in pearl on the head but no logo. Serial 400 047 and MADE IN USA printed on the back of the neck. And it's a lefty!

I looked around the gibson site but can't find that model.

I guess it's probably not that old. That's what you get for trusting a saleman...

[James8831]

sorry to hear that your Gibson isn't what it's supposed to be . I think i just told you all i know about Gibsons in the previous post!

Despite the fact it's a 70s lefty and it's been repaired and P_I-ssed about with it may be worth more than you think, so it may be worth sending Gibson an email - they made it they should blinking well tell you - keep hassling them till they do (apparently they can be a bit reluctant to respond) :) .



There are lots of sites out there for refinishing guitars, if you want to consider it

this a good un http://www.flash.net/~guitars/ReRanch101.html

I can't tell you about painting guitars (houses-yes) and you'd know why if you saw my "glitterflake-blue black metallic" Ibanez.

Check out http://www.guitarnuts.com for wiring ideas and stewmac are very helpful generally.

Best of British to you.

[pstring]

It does sound like you have a "Strange One" on your hands, at first I thought it might have been a SG Special that someone had messed with, but you say it has the block inlays in the fretboard and the ser# is for 74-75, so that rules that out, someone has definitely messed around with it though. Have you ever had the pickguard off? I am wondering about the P-90?, by the fretboard, and I agree with James, someone must have replaced the bridge p/u with something weird, SG's are normally bright and piercing, I think if you are not worried about any collector value, then a decent set of humbuckers is in your future and would have to improve your sound tremendously, by the way, if you remove the pickguard there should be cavity where a full sized humbucker once lived, good luck and keep us posted, you have caught my curiousity with this guitar

[Edited by pstring on 01-20-2002 at 10:28 AM]

[Benoit]

Thanks pstring.

What I'll do is put up a page on my website with photos of my guitar. Could you help me figure what's the story of that guitar.

Guess what? there's nothing under the pickguard!!!!!! This is a weird guitar.

[Benoit]

Here is a temporary web page so people can help me identify the model of my Gibson SG. If you have a good knowledge of gibson's SG models, could you help me identify this one.

http://guitarsession.tripod.com/dial/gibson_sg.htm

[James8831]

..your pics are good I can see what you mean more now.

I think the neck is a (Gibson?) Mini humbucker - I don't think it is a standard on an SG - unless Gibson made one of their "crackhead specials" - look at their luthiers co_ckups page for these. Pretty sure the bridge pu is a Seymour Duncan-or copy- as there were not many replacement pickups made when your ax was being customised.

From the wiring I'd guess that both were replaced (and a little badly if i may say) as you've got room for a humbucker in the bridge i'd say you had room for one in the neck and it's been routed wider...but this could be wrong as the SG special came with p90s about the same size ...so id like to ask

lalimacefolle

Lordathestrings

Jon Broderick

et al, about this as they know their Gibsons.

Ps I think Gibsons serial number info is really confusing.. anyone??

[Benoit]

At first I thought is was a 67 since the serial number was said to be in those years.

After more reading on the gibson's website, they said that the MADE IN USA was added in 74-75 along with serials in the same range as mine.

But as you said, they messed around a lot with their serials and mixed them up without real defined patterns. Or maybe I just don't get it.

If you say the wiring is bad then My problem may come from this. I have a lot a noise in my sound. I didn't realized it until a few months ago when I recorded on my computer. Man! The backgroud noise is really loud. Now that I think of it, it feedbacks a lot when I play with a band.

I guess the wiring should be redone.

[James8831]

I don't know if the wiring is bad it does look like it though ,as your pictures show a lot of blobby solder and long bared wires at the end of the insulation. From what you say some of the wires may not be connecting properly to the pots or other earths - before you go ripping it apart (as you probably know)try very gently moving the wires with the guitar plugged in to see if it makes any difference to hiss pops and crackles.

re: "But as you said, they messed around a lot with their serials and mixed them up without real defined patterns. Or maybe I just don't get it. " yes I don't really understand their numbering system either, I did look it up on the intertent yesterday and it seems that the acid was better in the 60s. :(.

To let you know the score i am "teaching myself" the tech stuff, I've got several cheap fender copies and one Les Paul copy. I have rewired and rebuilt a few fender copies over the last 18 months,(yes i should have learned the thoery by now but haven't :() have not done a LP/Gibson type as mine is a bit too nice to P_iss about with,therefore i can recognise slightly bad wiring, but not give you direct info on SG/LP types ,but those yellow "jumpers" on the back of the pots look dodgy.

I beleive that http://www.guitarnuts.com has an LP diagram on their wiring menu - this should be the same as a SG, it's just got the switch in a different place, hang on i just found it it's here ;

http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/stockgibson.html

there aint any jumpers on this thing, a possible suggestion :if you can/know a friend who can solder try taking one end of the yellow wire off the back of a pot.

[Lordathestrings]

I'm no Gibson expert. I (briefly) had a early-60's SG right-hander that some 'country' player had gouged up with boiler-plate plectrums. I do remember a few things, though.

The headstock logo looks right. Mine didn't have any fancy patterns on it either. The tuners look to me like Grover 0901's (http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?client=48791317&action=SERVE&ITEM=catalog/p.html&A=%2BNAME_LINK%3DGrover_Rotomatic_Guitar_Tuners). My SG had ornate plastic knobs. You can see marks left by the original tuners. The rest of the neck looks OK.

The body offers some clues. My SG had the neck pickup positioned right up against the end of the fretboard. This made the joint between the neck and the body so weak that it was scary! It was hard to tune because any change in the tension on one string would change the tension on the rest of the strings. The action was hard to adjust, for the same reason. Anyway, later models had the neck pickup located a little further away from the neck, leaving a bit more wood at the joint.

The colour under the pickguard shows that the finish is UV-sensitive. Some yellowing is expected, but that seems excessive for the age (25 years?) of the instrument.

My SG had a one-piece bridge and tailpiece. The separate adjustable (Tuneamatic?) bridge came along later.

Those pickups don't look right at all! But the knobs, and the Rhythm/Treble nameplate at the selector, are OK.

That wiring looks only slightly worse than what I would expect to see. Those yellow sleeves on the ground jumpers on the back of the pots is a plastic-coated cloth braid called 'spaghetti'. As you'll see in the Guitar Nuts (http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/menu.html) articles, those jumpers make a ground connection in addition to the connection the pots make to the foil. This double connection makes what is called a 'ground loop', and is very likely at the root of some of your noise problems.

[pstring]

Wow! First let me say too bad it's not all original because even though it probaly is a 74-75, I believe it would be considered quite rare, a lefty SG standard, no crown inlay on the headstock and I believe it may have had factory mini-humbuckers, I searched around today and found a listing for a 70-73 w/mini-buckers and seeing that yours has one and you said the bridge p/u wouldn't go down far enough, I just wonder if it didn't originally have the minis, the smaller pickguard was standard on alot of SG's, but the lack of the crown inlay is kind of strange on a Standard, someone must have stripped the cherry finish because it wouldn't be under the pickguard and in the control cavity if it was factory tobbacco, you probaly know all this already but I'm obessed with this right now and would love to see it in person, definitely get rid of those yellow jumpers, the pots should all be grounded by the foil the only ground needed should be to the ring connection on the output jack, Good Luck Benoit

[Benoit]

I found someone to do the wiring. He worked on some Les Paul and on a SG too so he knows a bit about the wiring.

He also tells me that his father has a similar guitar and his got one pickup like the one near the fretboard of mine but on his guitar it's near the bridge. It's a 70's SG so I'm getting close to the truth now.

I just hope I could see a picture of the guitar to compare both.

I'll keep you posted.

[James8831]

I took the liberty of emailing Gibson, (only a couple of days ago!) Here's their reply - seems even they are confused about their numbering system.

"Hi James,



Thank you for the email.



According to the serial number this appears to be either a 1974 or 1975 SG Special. This guitar came with Gibson mini-humbuckers. It was available in cherry and natural only. The serial numbers through these years will not allow us to specify 74 or 75 due to some numbers duplicating themselves.



............


Regards,

David Osborne

Gibson Musical Instruments".

So now we (almost) know.

All the Best.

[pstring]

I think the special order model name for those SG"s was something like " Hey let's smoke a dobbie at lunchtime" or it may have just been " The Afternoon Special", maybe this also explains the mid 70's serial number problems, well there's always something funny going on at the old Gibson factory, thats for sure............

[Benoit]

Thanks for e-mailing gibson. I lost faith in replies from them, I'm still waiting for a reply of an e-mail I sent 2 months ago.

I don't know what they smoked but it sure was really good to come up with those serials.

[James8831]

You're welcome.

The thing is I actually got 2 replies in a few hours and was quite surprised - i have heard much of Gibson's email rep.

I totally agree pstring, stick a line of charlie up the nostrils of a 70s Gibson manager and "Lets do another custom run - no lets do two, Bob you've only had 2 spliffs sort out those numbers for us"

Bob "Yeah,but,i, like run.. out,man.." "No problem- use the old ones no one will care "..

Did Cheech and Chong work there or merely inspire them?

The guy I emailed was very efficient (etc) so i think they've got it together more these days.

Benoit, Let us know what you decide to do with her in the end..

Cheers.

James.

[Benoit]

Well I'll probably do the rewiring this week.

It seems like the bridge pickup was badly installed. In fact it the wrong way.

I don't know a lot about this but as I understand it, the pickup is generating noise instead of reducing it. The bridge pickup that is.

This and what you guys suggested about bad wiring is probably the source of all this noise.

Anyway, hope I'll have time this week to wire this.(Well I won't actually be the one doing the wiring but I'll take the credit since you guys don't know my technician :) )

[James8831]

with your wiring -are you going to keep the bridge pickup?

- wired correctly,of course.

(i'd suggest putting a Gibson 498 in there,but i'm biased :))...

[Benoit]

I think I'm going to stick with it. First reason is that I want to hear what the new wiring will do to the sound.

Second reason is that I need to service my car this week.

That 200$ I could have used for a new pickup ;)

But thanks for the suggestion I'll check out this Gibson 498

[pstring]

Hey Benoit, just a thought, get the tech to check the ohms on that bridge pu, it could possibly be an old Dimarzio, I hope it sounds alot better for you when the guy gets done, noisy humbuckers just ain't cool........

[Benoit]

You know what. A few people also though that pickup was a Dimarzio. I'll be sure to check that out.

[Benoit]

Well I had to take my guitar to the workshop.

As I said before the neck had been broken before and I saw yesterday that the tension of the strings were reopening the broken neck. Scared the $%?t out of me.

I decided to rebuild it, I went and took it to the shop so they could work on the neck. Next I'll buy original Gibson keys and get the original pickups.

Since I got a Yamaha now, I can put some work into keeping that '75 guitar in top condition and still be able to jam.

It's gonna cost me a little money but it's worth it.

I got a question for you guys. The original finish was Cherry red. When I bought it the last owner had it finished in brown, which is still good looking but not the original color.

Should I go and finish it Cherry red or would that be a bad idea. All this in the purpose of making it "original". I know nothing about finishing I wouldn't do the job myself but do you see possible problems with this. would that mess up the wood?

[Lordathestrings]

The most basic reason a finish is applied to a guitar is to protect the wood. There are a lot of very good products available now that should be just fine. Browse around at StewMac (http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=SERVE&ITEM=catalog/s.html&1=%2Bsection%3DFinishing_supplies) to get some ideas.

You could probably find out what the original material was, if you want to be authentic about restoring your guitar. Myself, I would want the best stuff available now rather than using what was state-of-the-art almost 30 years ago. Unless you find that it is worth a huge amount of money, I think you are likely to keep it for sentimental reasons. That frees you to fix it up the way you want it, without being limited by resale considerations.

To paraphrase your sign-off, you should be allowed to focus on the joy you get from this guitar.

Enjoy! :)
L

[James8831]

found this the other day which is good on repairing Gibbos .. http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/index.html
page 3 is where he start painting.
Pity he hasn't got an email adress up..

Just to let you know I usually paint houses ,when i'm working and i ain't bad,but..tried to paint a guitar with less than great (OK ..but not quite as intended) results [NOT with Gloss/Emulsion]..but,if you get the right tools and working conditions I don't see why you couldn't.

I'd say get some scraps of mahogany/body wood from a lumber yard to practice on, this will give you an approx idea how the body will "take" the paint,of course diffrent woods react differently.

Lord is right-on as long as you get you wood prep'd and sanded right-taking all the dust out,with a tack rag,natch- you'll eventually be sealing the wood and protecting it.

This is good http://reranch.com/

Good Luck.

[Benoit]

Got some info I would like to run by you guys.

I asked around for original keys and original pickups for my SG.

What I got is 100$ CND for a set of original keys and 140$ CND for the pickup. Do you think it's fair?

Also, the tech tells me that my guitar wasn't refinished brown but The Cherry red finish faded with the years! Is that possible? I wanted to refinish it but if it's still the original finish, I won't do it. A hint is that behind the buttons it's still cherry red and where the keys were, you can cleary see a discoloration.

[Lordathestrings]

A few minutes at StewMac (http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=HOME) got me prices for Tuners (http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=SERVE&ITEM=catalog/sku.html&sku=3754) and P-90 pickups (http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=SERVE&ITEM=catalog/sku.html&sku=3370) in US$.

If those tuners are indeed almost 30 years old, the plastic knobs may be fragile, and not very good for regular use. The Grover Keystones look very similar, and are likely to be much better quality. I had an old SG, and those tuners were miserable pieces of merde. The new Grovers would be considerably less expensive, even with the exchange rate, shipping, and taxes. Are you restoring a museum piece, or do you plan to actually play it?

Your mini-humbuckers would be smaller versions of the P-90's, I think. The price comes out about the same as your quote. If it fits your guitar's cutout, its probably a good deal.

Guitar Trader (http://www.GuitarTrader.com) (888-448-4828) is offering 'faded' Gison SG guitars in Brown (http://www.guitartrader.com/itm.icl?pid=31038&orderidentifier=icat_orderID) or Cherry (http://www.guitartrader.com/itm.icl?pid=31037&orderidentifier=icat_orderID). So I guess you are already there.

I suggest you get hold of someone who can appraise the value of your guitar, to help you decide what you want to do to fix it up. It would be a shame to reduce the value of a sought-after collector's item. It would be a disaster to spend big money on vintage parts that reduce the playability of an instrument that is not particularly collectable. I think it comes down to whether you would rather look at it, or play it!

[pstring]

The mystery guitar strikes again, I would have never guessed that the finish color could fade that much, so many old SG's keep their color, you just got lucky! Musican's Friend had Gibson Vintage style replacement tuners on sale for $59.95US, that might be a slightly better price, a set of those mini-buckers probaly ain't gonna be found for cheaps, sales volume isn't exactly high on those, might try scrounging as many repair shops as possible, there was a time when alot of people were replacing those with the full sized buckers and no one wanted them, an ad in the newspaper might turn up a couple of jewels.........

[Benoit]

Just surfing and found the same guitar but with all original gear on it.

http://www.fretsguitarcentre.com/index.html?target=p_361.html&lang=en-gb

The neck of my Gibson is now repaired and very strong. I know now why it was always detuning. 4 days under the press was enough I guess :)

You can still see the crack but it's now glued shut. Don't have to worry about that now.

The tech told me there's about 150 pounds of stress on a guitar neck. Now I know why the crack opened up with time.

[James8831]

Benoit -i bet she'll play fantastically now and you didn't have to pay £895 for her::--
Live mid-market rates as of 2002.05.08 13:24:37 GMT.
895.00 GBP = 2,047.58 Canada Dollars
----------------*gulp* I STILL think you've got a little bit of a bargain despite the troubles you've had with it..


cheers.

[Benoit]

You're right. I've been playing that guitar for 8 years probably and never put a dime on it. Even if I have to choke out 400 $ to make it original, I still got a really, really good deal.

Always remember that there are precious vintage laying around in music stores. With some restauration, you can have a great guitar.

One thing for sure, even if I'm making it original, you can bet I'll still enjoy playing it. Whats the use of having an old guitar hanging on the wall if you don't enjoy the sound!

Pretty expensive decoration if you ask me :)