Amps

[friskynibbles]

I have a little Ross Tube Blaster amp or something... It's tiny, really has no power at all... What kind of power should I be looking for in a jamming amp? 500W? I have no idea at all.
*shrug*

[Sivert Skaaren]

Jamming???
500w = nothing, u'll never hear again after turning that amp on... maybe if it's a bass.. then it's not that uncommon...
at max 100w.. even that may be much for jamming..
what music do u play?
and what kinda amp are u thinking of? head and cab? combo? 1x12 2x10 2x12 4x12 etc?

for jamming(with others) i would use a 50w amp with a 2x12 cab.. but i would have lifted the cab alittle up from the floor.. then it sounds better and louder.. 50w and 2x12 is more than u think...

if u meant jamming alone at home.. i think 25-50w.. and 1x12 is enough...

But on stage i would use 4x12.. but maybe not on full volume.. but i would miced it up with a sm-57 and have alittle guitar in the PA...

NB; this is tubeamps.. i have no idea how a hybrid/transistor amp would be... some says they are louder on low volumes and lower on high.. but i don't really know.. TUBE MATTERS!

Sivert Skaaren
aka Acron

[Lordathestrings]

In an earlier thread on this forum http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=2164 we had some discussion about how much power you really need. You'd be surprised at how loud a small amp is! What gets scary, is the fact that it takes a ten-fold change in power to produce double (or half) the loudness!

In other words, a 50 Watt amp is going to be only twice as loud as a 5 Watt amp. ('Kinda makes you wonder why you'd want to spend all that coin on a bigger amp!). What makes the bigger amps totally unusable for anything but on-stage performance is the fact that a tube amp doesn't sound its best until its 'cranked'. A big amp at full power is going to hurt your hearing.

The reason a lot of players give for 'needing' a bigger amp is that they get drowned out by the drummer. Hello? Take away his miniature baseball bats and give him some lighter sticks! If everybody is using small amps, you avoid the 'volume wars' and you can get down to making music. That's what you're there for, right?

I've finally got some time off from my job, so I can get some work done on the WeeBeastie 5 Watt amp I've been meaning to build for months now. I've already got a 60 Watt Ampeg VT-40 4x10 combo, and a 120 Watt Ampeg VT-22 2x12 combo, so I speak from experience when I talk about using high-power amps. I'm designing, and building, a small amp because I believe its a better choice.

[educatedfilm]

oh god, I had a look at some power amps... MY GOD!!! Those things START at £1200!!!!!...
I know that output works on a logarithmic scale (very similar to decibels, but the log is to different base... *scratches head*... I think), but how come valve amps are FAR louder than transistor amps? I'm pretty sure of this ater having played about with a 30 watt valve jobby, which had a 12inch cone, which was deafening!!! Now, my practice amp is rated as 50watt, it's only got an 8inch cone, it produces a fantastic sound with out having to go deaf for it... But it's still, FAR FAR FAR quiter! Why?
Does cone size really make THAT much difference?
or amps rated by power usage as opposed to output? which would make sense...

[lalimacefolle]

I own a laney 30 watts all tube amp, and damn, that one turned up on ten can shred a pub to piece, with a really warm tone, and become really gentle when I turn the volume of the guitar down... Of course, I play mainly blues, so I need that kind of sound... If I need more power, I just mike it with a sm57... I've played once a marshall stack, and I had to turn it so loud to get the tone I wanted that I couldn't stand in front of it....

[Lordathestrings]

... is dealing with the things that crawl out at you!!

Loudness is measured in terms of the air-pressure variations (sound-pressure level, or SPL) that we sense as sound waves. The scale is indeed base-10 logarhythmic, but the relationship to electrical power is not linear. To double the SPL, you need 10 times as much power!!

Just to confuse the issue even further, the efficiency, or lack of efficiency, of the speaker(s) makes a big difference in the loudness of a system.

You will see speaker efficiency specified in terms of how many dB SPL result from an input of 1 Watt at 1000 Hz, measured at a distance of 1 meter, in line with the centre of the cone. An efficient speaker will produce ~100 dB. Its not uncommon to see numbers closer to 90 dB.

Here's where things get strange. A 50 Watt amp driving the 90 dB speaker is going to produce the same SPL as a 5 Watt amp driving the 100 dB speaker!

As for the tube/transistor conundrum, power ratings are measured at very low levels of distotion, typically much less than 1%.

A transistor amp stays clean right up to the point where it can't pass any more of the power supply voltage to the speakers. Then it 'clips' the signal, producing lots of very harsh distortion.

A tube amp starts to distort long before it 'runs out' of supply voltage, so it can deliver far more than its rated power, if you don't mind getting increased distortion along with the extra power. (You don't mind a little power-stage distortion, do you?)

The even-order harmonic content added to the original signal by tube distortion sounds more 'musical' than the odd-order harmonics that make up the waveform resulting from 'transistor' distortion. If you're feeling mathematically inquisitive, you can do some Fourier Transforms to see what I mean.

[Edited by Lordathestrings on 12-25-2001 at 07:13 PM]

[lalimacefolle]

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah that's a cool post!!

[Lordathestrings]

Please take look at this page http://www.amptone.com/g112.htm to get some idea of how the power must drop in order to get the loudness down to acceptable levels.

Even 1 Watt is still about 1/3 as loud as 50 Watts!

[booth421]

I've run half sack marshalls, and full stack Ampeg VT-22(yes I took notice, possible new thread topic about hearing loss) and I think small amps are better...I now rely on a Fender champ(5 watts and an 8" speaker) and a Semore Duncan (40 watts and a 12" speaker).. I split the signal and run stereo, E.Q. it so the champ handles to top end, and the Duncan handles the lower end..Add a SansAmp GT2, and a Double XX Warp thing for feedback frenzy.. Volume doesn't seem to be an issue, plus a mike in each cab at live situations elicits comments from other guitar players like,"What is that thing, and why does it sound so good?" There are fanatics who swear by champs, and champ mods..Anyone interested, I have an address for champ mods somewhere.. Joe Walsh on Funk #49---yep..it was a champ..

"Why wallow with eagles, when you can soar with pigs."
Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

[booth421]

Oh yes, I bought my champ for $39 at a Goodwill store...

[Lordathestrings]

I'm probably cutting my own throat by preaching so much on this topic. After all, if my home-made 0-5 Watt WeeBeastie works as well as I hope it will, I'm going to have an Ampeg VT-40 4x10 combo, an Ampeg VT-22 2x12 combo, and a pair of Garnet 4x10 Celestion cabs to try to sell.

Oops! :rolleyes:

[friskynibbles]

Well I'm a little confused about what my amp is... I couldn't find the specs (I have them tho, and the schematics)...
It says 40 watts on the back of the box, but 15 on the magnet I think... but it's a RG10 so I would assume that means a 10 watt amp. It has tiny lil balls, and at high volumes is very distorted. It's 10 yrs old. Volume, Overdrive, Trebble, Bass knobs on it. One input, one output. It's a tube amp. That's all I really know.
*shrug*

[Lordathestrings]

So, you've got a 10 Watt tube amp, with tone controls and overdrive, and you want to jam?

All you need now is some people to play with. Enjoy!

[friskynibbles]

Oh? It's just so smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall i thought it wouldn't be good enough...
Thx!
*shrug*

[booth421]

El Groupo,
Don't fall for the size, or the illusion of size..There used to be bands(and still may be)that set up dummy marshall stacks with no speakers, and put a mike on a pig-nose in back of the drummer..
I guess we should take the zuccini out of our trousers, and crank small amps that sound really good... Say farwell to fantasy land, welcome to reality..
Don't worry what others think, because all of the great guitarists never did concern themselves with outside influences..
Go against the grain, make recordings of your horrible mistakes and make them magical, if you hate blues--learn to play blues, same with country, or pop, or cartoon music..If you can't stand to play clean, well you get the point..
Here's the challenge: listen to jazz or classical for a whole week..The idea is not to focus on the latest Vinnie Moore lick, and more importantly, not to focus on ANYONE elses licks at all..You may dicover YOUR voice, when you get rid of all the other voices.. I am not the only one who hears voices, am I?
Refuse to be pidgeon-holed.. Be unpredictable.. Take chances..Vast musical horizons await those who break the rules..

"Why wallow with eagles, when you can soar with pigs."
Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

[Lordathestrings]

Maybe spending some time jumping around in front of a cranked VT-22 driving a pair of 4x10 cabs, trying desperately to find a 'dead spot' to save your ears from total destruction, is the path to enlightenment!

I found that a 20 foot jack cord was almost long enough.

[Lordathestrings]

I have an Ampeg VT-22 2x12 120 Watt combo and a pair of Garnet 4x10 cabs (Celestion speakers) for sale. Anyone in the Calgary, Alberta area who is interested should contact me ASAP.

P.S. Buy all three pieces, and I'll throw in a real nice 20 foot jack cord!

[friskynibbles]

I'm in BC but I can get to calgary. How much would you be asking for this kit?
*shrug*

[Lordathestrings]

The cabs cost me $700 for the pair. The amp was $550 before I replaced all the high-voltage capacitors and installed a quartet of 7027 GrooveTubes. Make me an offer.

If you would prefer to continue this by e-mail, use the link in my Profile.

[trendkillah]

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
Maybe spending some time jumping around in front of a cranked VT-22 driving a pair of 4x10 cabs, trying desperately to find a 'dead spot' to save your ears from total destruction, is the path to enlightenment!

I found that a 20 foot jack cord was almost long enough.

Well, I'd say if you're playing in a band with a drummer, it doesn't really matter how loud your amp is turned up, you'll damage your hearing anyway. Earplugs are the way to go in that case.

[friskynibbles]

don't wait for me then lmfao heh... i won't have that kind of money until march. if you can't sell it by then i would definately be interested.
:)

[Lordathestrings]

No problem. I was partly joking; offering the Path To Emlightenment for sale.

By March, though, I'll probably be entirely serious about it. I expect to have my home-made WeeBeastie integrated into a complete rig by then. 'till then...

Peace.
L

[friskynibbles]

I stand corrected-
my amp has big hairy nads.
wicked!

[friskynibbles]

I tried to email you but it wouldn't let me (says you have selected to NOT be able to be contacted from the board). So. If you would kindly email me at friskynibbles@hotmail.com I just wanted to know some more about the kit (I'm stupid).
*shrug*

[jack7]

If you want tube tone without volume invest in a
marshall soaker.

[Lordathestrings]

There's a lot of stuff here (http://www.amptone.com/index.html#polbttt) about how to get 'cranked' tone at low volume. As for power-soaks, you'll see that some like 'em and some don't.

[Azrael]

I have discovered that it does not realy need the biggest of all amps if u have a PA and a microphone!

there are some small amps at about 30 or 40 watts that produce a very cool sound and if u pick it up with a microphone and shoot it over yer PA it can be very cool sounding! I have seen peeps playing live wit a lil Pignose amp or the small marshall-pocket thingy and it sounded real good!

-=[Azrael]=-

[educatedfilm]

WHY DO VALVE AMPS SOUND MUCH LOUDER THAN SOLID STATE AMPS (i mean seriously louder, like a 30watt valve can be deafening, but 50watt solid state amp just sound loud)


"Are Tube Amps louder than solid state amps of the same power?
No. However they do SOUND louder. Let me explain.
Some excellent scientific work on tube preamplifiers and their distortion products has turned up the mechanism for this. When tubes are driven outside their linear region, for the first 12db or so of overdrive the harmonics that they produce trick the human ear into thinking that the sounds are getting louder, when in fact the sound is getting progressively more distorted.

It is this acoustic trick that can make tube amps sound up to 12db louder than they actually are compared to a perfect, undistorted amplifier. A solid state amplifier of the same power as a tube amp may distort at the same signal level as the tube amp, but the distortions are not subtle, and we hear them as distortion, not as a slightly louder sound. A solid state amplifier of much greater power would remain undistorted at higher levels, and the tube amp would sound comparably loud to the larger solid state amp.

They sound larger than they are. "
from
http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/taffram.htm
note Decibles are logarithmic, so 120 is half of 130, and 130 is half of 140 db in power per unit area... (i think it''s half, I cant remember:()...

[Lordathestrings]

That's a great site!

[educatedfilm]

yeah, unfourtantly it assumes you know some stuff, which I think is a little over my level.. that's why i need to learn to read schematics, and learn some general electronics stuff (i've been doing some reaserch but not enough yet, alot of the stuff I find is over my level, they'res not enough for poeple with good maths and physics and crap electronics knowledge)

[pstring]

1, 19ft. guitar cable, 1set slightly used ear plugs, Wanted 100watt tube powered hearing aid, I perfer EL34s

[otis31]

I RUN A 50W MARSHALL JMPMK2 THROUGH A 200W QUAD
IT SOUNDS GREAT I USE THE SAME VOL IN REHEARSAL
AS I DO ON STAGE LOUD ENOUGH BUT NOT TO RUDE LIVE ILL MIKE IT UP WITH A SM58,IT IS A HASSLE TO LUG AROUND,BUT BOY SHES WORTH IT

[lalimacefolle]

I think it made you go deaf, stop yelling WILL YOU???

[Lordathestrings]

Originally posted by lalimacefolle
I think it made you go deaf, stop yelling WILL YOU??? Its a capital offense! LOL

[jack7]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
WHY DO VALVE AMPS SOUND MUCH LOUDER THAN SOLID STATE AMPS (i mean seriously louder, like a 30watt valve can be deafening, but 50watt solid state amp just sound loud)


"Are Tube Amps louder than solid state amps of the same power?
No. However they do SOUND louder. Let me explain.
Some excellent scientific work on tube preamplifiers and their distortion products has turned up the mechanism for this. When tubes are driven outside their linear region, for the first 12db or so of overdrive the harmonics that they produce trick the human ear into thinking that the sounds are getting louder, when in fact the sound is getting progressively more distorted.

It is this acoustic trick that can make tube amps sound up to 12db louder than they actually are compared to a perfect, undistorted amplifier. A solid state amplifier of the same power as a tube amp may distort at the same signal level as the tube amp, but the distortions are not subtle, and we hear them as distortion, not as a slightly louder sound. A solid state amplifier of much greater power would remain undistorted at higher levels, and the tube amp would sound comparably loud to the larger solid state amp.

They sound larger than they are. "
from
http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/taffram.htm
note Decibles are logarithmic, so 120 is half of 130, and 130 is half of 140 db in power per unit area... (i think it''s half, I cant remember:()... :cool:

[friskynibbles]

thanks for that blurb. somebody actually referred us to that site already. it's quite a kickass library of tube info.
-Daniel

[warmfret]

Yeppers!! Skaaren is right (Hiya Acron) lol 500 watts will blow the head off a charging rhino!!!!!! If youre at home may I suggest a small chorus amp with lets say 2 6 1/2 " speakers 10 watt .. If youre in a Garage Jammin with Claude Kadiddlehopper on drums maybe a Crate 50 watt 2 12" combo, now if youre auditioning for Whitesnake you couldnt do better than a Marshall or Mesa Boogie Head and at Least 2 4 12" cabs
Ok back to reality Louder isnt always good Dynamics are the key my friend, I saw a good freind go completely deaf
first he complained that he couldnt hear high frequency at all, 2 years later he cant hear a lick. He played thrash metal through Marshalls Most of his short lived Band days
and cranked the piss out of em' he learned his lesson the hard way........... hope this helped.......
warmfret
aka GalaxyBR8

[warmfret]

I saw that once at a Yngwie Concert!!!!!!!!!!
I went around to the back of the arena in the upper stands (Like I normally do) to watch the roadies set up the stage etc... I looked at Yngwies "Monster Stacks" and to my amazement all the cab's and Marshall Heads were empty with the exception of one head and one 4 12" cab!!!!!!
warmfret

[friskynibbles]

that actually bothers me... it's like wearing makeup for the reaction.
-Daniel

[Lordathestrings]

Originally posted by warmfret
... I looked at Yngwies "Monster Stacks" and to my amazement all the cab's and Marshall Heads were empty with the exception of one head and one 4 12" cab!!!!!!A prime example of "Perception = Reality"!

[Van Malmsteen]

Seems I've had so many different amps over the years, Marshall, Hiwatt, Mesa 50/50 (didn't last long, left channel went on the 2nd day), Ampeg, and so on. I guess it's just individual preference and what your looking for in an amp. But, there is one that seems to be one of my favorites. It's the one I keep coming back to through the years which is the Musicman HD-130. These are now vintage and you'll rarely see one anymore. Their kind of a moded Fender Hybrid. They have that crystal clear clean sound of a classic Fender and the other channel has great gain for lead and the rock sound.

just my 2 cents...

[Akira]

Its a capital offense! LOL

Lmao. Am I the only one who got that? :p

All this talk of going deaf etc makes me think. I was considering getting a 2x12 cab to hook up to my Crate GX212 120W (solid state), but now i'm not sure I should, advice?

[Lordathestrings]

Why should the players always be the ones who have to buy the gear? Get the singer to buy a big PA - then all you need is a mic! :D

[Akira]

Can someone help me with my problem? :p

I heard that a 1960 Marshall Cab goes really well with the amp I have, but now i'm not so sure whether I should get one with all this talk of rhino's and stuff.

Advice? (For more information on my amp, see earlier post)

[Lordathestrings]

Can someone help me with my problem? :p

I heard that a 1960 Marshall Cab goes really well with the amp I have, but now i'm not so sure whether I should get one with all this talk of rhino's and stuff.

Advice? (For more information on my amp, see earlier post)Since your amp has transistor, not tube, output stage, you don't have the problem of needing to crank it to get it to sing. Get whatever cab(s) sound good, and if it's too loud, just turn it down.

The reason bands used two full stacks 'back in the day', is that there were no PA setups like the ones in use today. Each player had their own system, and the drummers had to rely on their own muscles in order to keep up! One amp was actually running, while the other was a backup. Nowadays, with mics on everything, and the kind of mixing desks that used to be found only in recording studios, there's no need for monster amps & stacks, or for drummers with baseball bat sticks.

[Akira]

Since your amp has transistor, not tube, output stage, you don't have the problem of needing to crank it to get it to sing. Get whatever cab(s) sound good, and if it's too loud, just turn it down.

The reason bands used two full stacks 'back in the day', is that there were no PA setups like the ones in use today. Each player had their own system, and the drummers had to rely on their own muscles in order to keep up! One amp was actually running, while the other was a backup. Nowadays, with mics on everything, and the kind of mixing desks that used to be found only in recording studios, there's no need for monster amps & stacks, or for drummers with baseball bat sticks.

Hmm, well, in the name of being excessive, i'll get one!

[Ibanex420]

It's true you don't need a big amp to sound loud, and small amps cranked can give you big time distortion. I started with very small amp, then a twin twelve, but I finally settled on a 100w/4-12. Even though I probably never get passed three on my master volume, there's a big time "presence" with the big cabinet and bass response that just doesn't seem to be there with a small amp no matter how loud you crank it or mike it for that matter. For me, a three channel amp is a must!

[Lordathestrings]

I sold my pair of Garnet 412 cabs because there's nowhere I can actually use them. My Ampeg VT-22 has been sitting idle for so long that I'm looking into ways to modify it to run at lower power levels. At 120 Watts with efficient speakers, it's just too loud for any of the local clubs. And at 98 pounds, it's too frickin' heavy to drag around. My VT-40 is now a 1x15" combo with casters. And the Master Volume lets me get good sound at greatly reduced output.