theory vs learning songs

[zeb985]

ever sence I started playing the guitar all i've practiced is theory and learning the concept of music but ive never practiced any song. which is really starting to bother me because when people come over an ask me to play something all i can do is run through a scale or show them some chords I know. I enjoy learning the guitar and i have fun trying to learn new scales, chords and or trying to develop my picking by learning how to do pintch harmonics and ect... but i dont know if im stupid for only practicing what makes up a song versus learning any songs. my thoughts were to give up the next couple of years and just practice theory and what makes music and how to apply that to the guitar in hopes i would have a better understanding of music and my instrument.

Do you think this is dumb? In the long run just practicing scales and chord, and learning theory do you think this will help me or hender my ability in future years?

one last question I dont understand this yet so bare with me but if you are playing a Gmaj scale and start with A and end with A this is called an A dorian. But what if your playing an A min pentatonic what would you call it if started out with C and ended with C? If you call that a C dorian then how would you distinguish between the A minor pentatonic and the A#\Bb major scale?

[Christoph]

I had the same problem for a long time. People would ask me to play a song, and I would just shrug my shoulders and say - "How about a scale?" Needless to say, they weren't too impressed.

People always want to hear something that they recognize. It doesn't matter if it's Happy Birthday. It's always necessary, at least for a serious guitarist, to know the theory behind his instrument. But people are gunna want to hear some songs now and then, so you should go ahead and learn some. My advice would be to continue with the theory and to learn a few simple songs on the side. You'll be surpised at how learning songs can improve your knowledge of the instrument.

If you play A minor pentatonic and start and end at C, then it's C major pentatonic.

[Zeppelin]

to be honest the only song i managed to learn completley with all the solos and everything was "you shook me all night long" by ac/dc. that doesnt mean i cant play other things, but i always prefer to learn only the small riffs or licks that i'll be able to use later.
it all depends on the style of a player you want to be, i think its very important to learn theory in the begining, but it wont do any bad if you'll learn few songs here and there, because learning just the theory is like learning how to drive, but without even sitting in the car.
of course if you want to impress the people around you should realy learn few songs, but i dont think it matters that much. the ammount of songs you know wont make you better, the whole point of learning songs is to learn how to write your own stuff while using things you learned from others

[James]

Dude I know exactly what you mean! I can't stand learning songs... I much prefer working on my own. And it's a shame because non-guitarists usually judge your ability based on how well you cover someone elses song. But don't worry, keep at it, and eventually people might be covering your songs.

[crazyguy]

O.K. I might have missed something, but for me the whole purpose of learning to play guitar is creating songs. Being a math student I can tell you that theory does you no good if you have no examples to study. Whether you're playing in a band or just composing and recording music, your final product will be a song of some kind. Learning strictly theory is pointless because the goal is to use it to create songs. This works both ways : learning only songs gives you no knowledge of the principles behind it, which are general for all songs. I've been playing in both cover and original bands, and learning theory simultaneously, going : "Sooo it's the dim chords and arpeggios that I was playing in Malmsteen songs (or trying to play)!". The answer, as for all dilemmas in life is simple : BALANCE!

P.S. Try learning songs by ear first, and then check the tabs. It's THE best way.

[trebledamage]

Crazyguy is totally right. Just learning music theory is useless unless you know how to apply it and can use it to create your own songs and riffs. If you are taking lessons, your teacher should be incorporating songs into your lesson material which are at your playing level and that go along with the theory that you are learning. If that's not the case, you should look for another teacher. Plus, you should be careful not to get too bogged down in music theory. Many music theory books focus on information, scales, chords, arpeggios, etc..., which may have some theoretical value but may be practically useless from a playing standpoint.

As for your theory question, if you play an A minor Pentatonic starting on the note, C, you are actually playing C major pentatonic, not C Dorian. Both A minor pentatonic and C Major Pentatonic are derived from the C Major Scale.

C Major Scale: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

C Maj. Pent.: C, D, E, G, A, C

A min. Pent.: A, C, D, E, G, A

The Dorian mode is also derived from the major scale, not the pentatonic scales. So in the above example, the Dorian mode (which starts on the 2nd tone of the MAJOR scale) would be D Dorian. (D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D).

The A# / Bb Major Scale would have no bearing to the above example. However, C Dorian would be the Dorian mode for the Bb Major Scale. (It would actually be B# Dorian if you were referring to the scale as the A# Major Scale -- but this little point is an example of theory which, while technically true, is practically useless from a playing standpoint in my opinion.)

I like to look at the Major scale as the root of all scales, chords, arpeggios, etc. (keep in mind, other people have other theories) That way I have a reference point to build all the scales, chords, arpeggios that I use when I play. It makes playing and adding new concepts and riffs much easier for me.

[Edited by trebledamage on 12-11-2001 at 10:48 AM]

[u10ajf]

I just practised scales and chords for years. I didn't bother learning songs, I think I was too proud or hung up or something. All that theory really does help; I remember that when I learned
the Harmonic Minor scale I was absolutely thrilled and wrote my first half decent piece of music.
I'm not sure that it was necesarily the right way to learn though, most guitar music is pretty damn easy if you've been practicing technique and scales all the time. I know virtually no songs at all and sometimes that bothers me. Just this last year or so I've started playing along to other people's music, I've found it great fun. First work out the key without worrying how many wrong notes you are hitting, then, if you are not familar with the scale patterns draw out the fretboard with all the right notes marked on it. Finally just play along however you want to; it doesn't have to be right, give it practice and it'll get closer. I get the impression that most notes are not critical, they can be substituted so long as you don't go outside the scale and hit a clanger.

[Wishiwasjoe]

i've been playing for four years and i know lots of other people's songs, but i haven't studied much theory, which is something i kick myself for all the time. A friend of mine doesn;t play many songs by other people, but he knows a lot of theory. My music sounds like someone elses, his sounds dry and repetitive. YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

[brndp]

THIS WILL SOLVE ALL YOUR PROBLEMS. Take some of your favorites songs...learn to play the entire song. THEN go back and analyze the entire song...See how the guitar, bass, and drums all relate to one another. See what key the song is in...what type of scales are they soloing over. Cuz you gotta learn how notes and chords relate to one another. I think this will be very beneficial.

[Sivert Skaaren]

well.. i've never learned many songs.. but i have no problem with the learning part.. it's just boring to play other ppls music. it's much more fun to play what i make myself.. if not.. why not improvisate?
study.. huh.. well.. i've dona alittle of that.. but don't think it will halp me that much.. i understand the music.. and the theory have helped me.. to understand how to make chords, modulation, progressions, melodies etc. and to create it and play it.. that's my way.. still.. i'm pretty stuck to the classical 'rules'.. everytime i do something 'wrong' on purpose.. it's like.. 'dude, did u hear that? was that good? can i really do that? or should i change to what it really should be?'.. sometimes it's cool.. sometimes it's madness(i like madness).. and sometimes it's just stupid...

This is probably why i never have learnt to play jazz.. and probably never will.. to complicated.. not clear enough rules.. and.. i really don't like jazz that good...

Sivert Skaaren
aka Acron

[lalimacefolle]

I thought that jazz was complicated, and then, I started listening to it...
I thought it sounded like a bunch of weird notes played at warp speed with a drummer that kept on hitting on the wrong spots...
Then, I got the hang of it, I started to enjoy the way the went from one target note to the other...
Then, I started to experiment those paths...
Then, I started to understand how they had created those paths (the theory behind it)
Now, I play jazz, and I'll tell you the truth, through miles DAVIS' words: "I'll play it first, then tell you what it is..."
Theory is not something on its own, it's to expand the bounderies of your playing... You don't learn words one by one reading the dictionnary, you eventually learn them when you need them, and look up for it if you can't decipher its meaning...
You'll try to put them in your sentences at first, thinking "here's a good spot where I can show my knowledge", and after a while, you just say it, without thinking about it...
That's the same with theory...

[Parrot Head 1970]

In my opinion theory is the understanding of what others play. If you write from a calculated theorem you aren't really writing. Learing and understanding music theory enables you to understand why someone elses ideas work and how you may better utilize them to incorperate them into your own style of playing. Understanding why.....eliminates the guess work that many players must under go.

Arguments for both sides are many. But I don't think you sacrifice by knowing anymore than you gain by discovery of new or foreign things. Either way you end up at the same end.

Just don't get too caught up in "What does and doesn't work" to miss all of the things that Hendrix, Zappa, Vai, and others stumbled onto.

It's a world of notes that you will never play the same twice in a row. Enjoy the fact that knowledge is the "ticket in the door" not the whole show.

All the best!!!!!! :cool:

[chris mood]

Bach did this for a lot of his music, and he wrote some pretty hip stuff. Some times it can sound very mathmatical, but everything can't be straight from the heart. Personally I like music that contains an even amount of emotion and technicallity, too much of either or can get boring.
As well as the theory vrs song thing I think it depends on your personality and learning style. As for myself, I like to know as much as possible about whatever I set out to accomplish, whether it be computers, music, or fitness, I don't think knowledge hurts you. But I know I like to see things make sense on paper before I apply it to guitar, or computer, or whatever.
Learning theory will not styfle your creativity, and the long run it will expand it greatly. Over my years of playing/studying I've learned you can apply any note over any chord if you approach it correctly. The process it took to get to this point was long (to not only understand it but hear it). But the pt is it is a process, and the more you understand how things work the more creative you will become.

[Incidents Happen]

i hate how non-musicians judge musicians on how good they perform other poeple's music. agreed?

[chrisbs]

i think theory will give you the tools to learn songs faster.
When you get a good hold on how songs work, you will see patterns emerge, this will help you play by ear and improvise later on.

http://www.chrisbsmusic.com

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
i hate how non-musicians judge musicians on how good they perform other poeple's music. agreed?

Remember that musicians play for musicians AND non musicians alike. What makes players stand out is when they are considered great by the two kind of listeners (Jimi HENDRIX, Van Halen, Jimmy PAGE, Slash, George BENSON...). Playing "Music for Musicians" eventually leads to styles like shred, where performance takes over music.

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Incidents Happen
i hate how non-musicians judge musicians on how good they perform other poeple's music. agreed?

i dont agree with you as well..
i hate how the musicians judge other musicians much more.
usualy the non musicians will just notice the harmony or the lack of harmony in the song, while a musician will hear everything you do. he will notice when you are out of tune, and when you are not playing with steady rhythm. he will tell you that he had heard this harmony 10000000000 times already, before you had used it.
basicly dont ever let other musicians to judge you music, because it will only depress you.

[Incidents Happen]

oh! man! i forgot about that...i hate that too. well non-musicians so far with me have been thouroughly impressed, but musicians are always like "yea, well..." then they trail off, kina a weird vibe

[chris mood]

I like playing for other musicians because I think they get it on A much deeper level then the non-musician. I think non musicians are much more enthusiastic though. There seems to be this thing with other musicians like"yeah I think your pretty good but I'm not gonna tell you that though."

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by chris mood
There seems to be this thing with other musicians like"yeah I think your pretty good but I'm not gonna tell you that though."

Once, I had gone through a whole week only listening to Shawn lane CDs and videotapes, and I had a jam on friday night. So I played the most tasteless jam of my entire life, with the worst licks ever, played twice faster than anything audible...

Well, the audience didn't clap (and I guess they didn't boo because I'm close to 300 pounds) but the other guitarist on the band could have married me if I wanted him too.

Isn't art weird?

[Zeppelin]

non musicians and me too actualy dont like music which is not simple.
pop selling well because its all built around very simple harmonies and turn arounds.
many musicians think they will be counted as good musicians if they will listen to different kinds of crap and then make themselves like they realy understand something.

[mamamalabass]

BALANCE!!!!!!!BALANCE!!!!and more balance
This I think is really the key.Of course theory helps but so does lesrning songs.All of these things allow us to be creative and communicate something through the music we make and love so well.As for whether non musicians or musicians are more critical....so what....we play and write because we love it ,and feel we can express something.It seems to me that if you like what you hear yourself playing than it's all good and f--- those guys who judge.You will never please everyone all the time.As far as musicians go remember the ego factor...good luck..

[mrk96]

I've learned both songs and theroy, and I can sympythise with anyone who said "people only want to hear songs, because I'm more comfortable with the stuff I just make up." I think it is important to learn both. If your just learning theroy from a teacher I wouldn't quit, but I would buy a songbook or look for some internet tab to pratice on the side. After all everyone started playing because of the music they heard and loved so why not try playing it on your own. I've also found that learning songs with the theroy that applies to them has helped me learn new rythms and teniques that will eventually break me out of that repetive mode I've been stuck in.


As for the Scale question. I thought A minor pentationic a Cmaj pentationic scales were exactly the same, because they were both composed of the same notes, regardless of where you start or finish. This is why A is the relative minor in the key of C. Notice that A minor scales are the same as A major scales. I will confess that I can't answer any questions about the Dorian scale because all I know is one position I learned form a scale chart... Opps I've alerady forgot It better go look for that chart.

[Incidents Happen]

i play songs ( a few, i have to, otherwise people wont think i know anything) but i play them like folk songs...you wanna hear a folk version of "Casey Jones"?

come to my house then.

its mostly for me songwise, folk stuff , grateful dead stuff i dilluted a little, changed a little. and i learn a few songs a month, then just go through them once a week or so, than the rest of the week i practice my improvisation, and since i got GUITAR PRO 3.0 ( thanks who ever suggested that...) i can start to understand where my ideas are coming from. the idea is, in front of people when u are starting out, you dont want to just "impress them" a whole lot because the next time you play for them, if you cant improvise, its just the same thing over and over again. i think music theory is the most important.

[baniaman]

It's not dumb to love studying theory by any means. However, the way that you learn it is the key. Try to learn the kind of music that you want to, not the kind that your friends want you to. If you pick something like an obscure intrumental, they're likely to be a whole lot more impressed anyway. Odds are that they've never heard it before, so they have nothingto compare it to. Secondly, learn how the classical composers applied theory to their compositions (there are tons of rules involved, but it can be very beneficial to you). You might even try to do your own arrangements of classic songs. With all your background in scales and chords, you probably have quite an ear on you. Give it a whirl! I arrange stuff all of the time for my own pleasure (mind you, these are instrumental arrangements of lyric songs so you might not be interested in that kind of thing). Whatever makes you happy as a musician should be your motivation for learning. Keep on keepin' on.

[Incidents Happen]

ok i seriously think that (as of now) the improvisation i do right now comes directly from me! i dont do other people's solos, in songs that i know the key (mostly songs in A), i make my own solos up! of course i know a few, and listening to music influences it, but i think right now i play alot from the heart. is that good or bad?

[ScottyTooHotty]

Okay, I'm gonna throw my two cents in to this thread. I read most of the posts and I'm trying to keep things straight in my head so I make sense. If I don't I apologize.

First off, the debate. Ask any MUSICIAN and they'll tell you that theory is better to learn than songs. Anyone can play a song, you're just copying another guitarist. To know the theory behind it and why everything ties in like it does is another thing. I agree, everyone wants to hear songs, no one wants to hear a scale, but there are ways to do both. How about a twelve bar blues??? Everyone knows it, and you can practicing your improvisation, scales and licks and everyone gets into it. I think it's fun trading off licks with another guitarist and the "non-musicians" really get into it to.

Which brings me to the other debate. I agree, I hate non-musicians who judge musicians too, but I hate "aspiring rock stars" who judge musicians even more. If you're not clear on what I'm saying, refer back to the last paragraph. The "aspiring rock stars" are the ones who know a hundred different songs (and usually cool ones)but don't know an Ionian scale from their ass. I worked with a guy like that and he pissed me off to know end. He would hang out with the band I was with, pick up a guitar and play an STP song (not all the way through mind you) and next thing I know he's telling everyone he's in our band! He could play STP, Great White, Eagles, etc.. but have him deviate from anything and he's was f#$king clueless. He wanted the "glory" and that was it. He sang like an 80 year old whore getting rodgered, had the rhythm of an elephant and his ear was so bad, couldn't figure out the key to a song, much less change the key fluidly and he could never tell when he was out of tune...but he knew songs.

If you know the theory it opens up so many doors. Learn to read music too (which I think should be part of the theory, but nowadays it's not). The "posers" can play songs, but can they take a piano part and transpose it to the guitar?? I think not.

[lalimacefolle]

Originally posted by ScottyTooHotty
The "posers" can play songs, but can they take a piano part and transpose it to the guitar?? I think not.

Once again, I put myself in the spot of the devil's advocate: Isn't music about songs, feelings, and lyrics?

Who gives a flying crap about the key you wrote your tune in? Would you care if I told you your lyrics were inpired by latin words?

Theory is a means of communicating with musicians, understanding a song to create one that's yours, but for anything else, you can throw it in the garbage...

Lots of music greats have gone beyond theory to get to the heart of music: melody. Listen to Mozart, anyone can understand him, even if you're not a music whizz. I've heard classical cats saying he was almost easy listening, well, if you prefer Bartok and dodecaphonism, good for you, but don't tell me they strike the same feelings. If you listen to music to think, then theory is important. But I listen to music to be moved...then I try to understand it, and it loses a lot of its magic...

[ScottyTooHotty]

Okay, good point and I agree. I play/listen to songs that move me. I'm a Tesla fan and to this day, the version of "Love Song" on the Five Man Acoustical Jam disc still sends chills up my spine. My point, though, was by learning theory it makes the creative process flow and by creating you can hence move people.

[lalimacefolle]

yep,
but still, nobody knows the 'magic formula' to move people with music, that's why it's so great.

My songs that people enjoy always seem to me as if I hadn't written them, as if it was god's gift...

[trebledamage]

Look. No one ever goes out to a club to hear a band play "theory." You go to hear musicians play songs. So learning theory is not your ultimate goal. Playing songs is the ultimate goal. However; you need to have a solid foundation in music theory in order to be able to create your own songs or put your stamp on someone else's song.

Like Scotty said, everyone knows of a guitar player who can play a bizillion songs from other bands, but has no idea how or where that band's music fits into the grand scheme of music. Consequently, that player is like a deer caught in the headlights when he or she is in a situation that calls for some form of improvization.

And everyone know of a guitar player who can play a bizillion complex scales, arpeggios, chords, etc..., one who knows a lot about theory but has no idea how to use those tools to create a melody, entertain an audience, compose a solo that fits into a song, or enhance the performance of the other musicians in the band around him or her.

The point is that there really is no debate. You need to learn theory AND you need to learn songs. One without the other leaves a serious gap in your ability to play your instrument. More importantly, it leaves a gap in your ability to play your instrument with other musicians.

[Incidents Happen]

i think songs are easier to learn once you have the theory

[aiwass]

I am sorry if this sounds blatant, simplistic and rude, but I have only one word if you wanna boost both song knowledge, technique, time and coolness(hehe): METALLICA. At least 80% of their songs released between 1984 and 1991 are all masterpieces in their genre, and don't tell me the solos for Dyers Eve and Master of Puppets are simple to play. They also offer a great study in time signatures, and a healthy dose of rhythm chops. When you've finally mastered Metallica, it's time to move on. Enter Dream Theater! You're lucky if you can master that, though:)

[lalimacefolle]

Tough break if I want to play jazz, my band won't cover "for whom the bell tolls"...

[aiwass]

Why not? Maybe a jazz version of Battery is exactly what the jazz scene needs?

[trebledamage]

I'm guessing that the thrashing verses would be replaced with some sort of swing beat?

[Axl_Rose]

I started out learning guns n roses, note for note on songs like Sweet Child o Mine and Welcome to the Jungle. After a year of playing I can play pretty much most of Guns n Roses songs, and this is how-
I never learnt scales, why? because every slash/songs solo is based on a scale and by learning the solo and the notes used your obviously learning that scale!! So for a song like "Its so Easy" Ive learned the song note for note till the 2nd solo. Its not a very interesting solo and doesnt stand out much so i didnt learn it. Instead i re-used the notes from the first solo to play along with to the 2nd. So when i get in a band and hopefully we cover it i'll just do something sponteanous! Not to say am going to play something different everytime, i always fall into the same sort riff/hook.
This is far more important than learning noodled solos and outos, its understanding "what sounds good" what fits! So for solos like November Rain outro, instead of learning a solo comprised of a massive combinaiton of frets 15, 16, 18 on the first string, 15, 17, 18 on the 2nd etc, just remember the notes/frets used and follow the flow of the song!! so when it comes to improvising you know exactly what songs right!!

Later Axl

[templd50]

Yes you need BOTH. THeory is a great tool to understand music--but in the end, live on stage-with people watching and listening to you--you better be playing MELODIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A four note melodie that sticks in your head for 5 hours is much more impressive that a lyidan-augmented scale played at lightning speed against a 7b5 chord in 6/8 time. My point is that music is a language. If you dont connect with your audience then they wont pay to see you again! (and the bar wont hire you back)--------Just think melodies and the BEATLES they wrote the most famouse melodies in the world. if i type YESTERDAY..... you know the melodie thats music!

[river]

the problem with not knowin theory is context.
ya can learn all these songs n have all these
great licks n think that since this works with
a C in one song it'll work in another but it
aint so.there are many ways to present your licks
but they gotta fit with the song and with wut
the other musicians r doin. ya play yer A minor
pentatonic like ya do in one song in C but it needs
to be flavored differenty if the song is in G.
Am is not the same in different keys.and nothin
is more frustratin than playin with a guitarist
who keeps throwin in these 'leading' notes that dont
fit and only add clutter to the song,if not totally
take away from the song. learn theory. if ya dont,ya
aint a serious musician in my opinion. anybody can
cover somebody else. if ya cant understand it, yer
hackin. sorry if i sound severe, but i never play
twice with hackers. takes too long to try to figure
out which language to use. learn theory and everybody
can be on the same page. you can do anything ya want
with your music, but if ya dont know theory yer usin
the splash technique, kindo like throwin paint on the
canvass and callin it art. your choice though. i always
suggest doin the work and gettin good.