A bone to pick with blues guitarists!!!!!!

[Vlahos]

I have been to hundreds of guitar sites on the net and what has come up as a bit of an issue is a lot of blues and soft rock guitarists are saying " We dont like shredders. They dont play from the heart and just try and play fast all the time". Well this really got me angry when people started refering to steve vai and joe satriani as shredders. These two guitarists, along with many other of the accused, are always under fire due to the fact that people think "they are only shredders". If you guitarists actually knew what you were talking about and actually listened to their music before making such a stupid and uncalled for judgement for two of the most innovative guitarists ( along with many more in their time)you would realize that 99% of their music is from the heart and not shredd. So dont class them as shredders because the only thing you have heard them play is one fast run and that is nothing to judge them by. You may think, "well I dont like vai or satch" which is fair enough as we are never going to agree on who the best guitarist is but stop wasting this great sites time by stating things that are completely incorrect. As for Yngwie Malmsteen, yes he is a shredder,yes he plays fast most of the time but the harmony, theory and heart and soul put into his music is far greater than most blues players. With all the stuff that happened to him in his life at least give him some credit for what he has done for guitar and especially music as a whole. And for those who think Page, Hammett and Halen are the best, actually sit down with someone who knows a little about guitar and figure out why because all they produce is great creativity, poor technique (sure anyone can get it right on a CD but what about live????) and poor execution of harder techniques which only qualifies for a professional and not the best.

But all in all, if you are going to say people who shredd are not creative and dont play from the heart, then we must talk about John Petrucci. He has better technique than anyone that has ever been heard commerciallly, he writes the most beutiful and creative solo's ever and his theory is above exceptional and most of all, he does play shredd but he can play blues better than 99% of people on this planet. So blues players, I'd love to hear your arguements as to why you think vai and satch are shredders and what you have against people who shredd. My understanding is that you are just jealous that we can play so fast and also play the blues exceptionally well and you cant. If not, please tell me what the real reason is cause I would love to hear it.

[Bardsley]

So you can play the blues exceptionally well? I notice you said "we" at the end of that tirade, that's all. Part of it may be jealousy; I certainly wish that I could play with the technical competence of people like Vai, Satch, Petrucci, etc. However, seeing as I fall asleep everytime I hear their music, I certainly don't hope to sound like them. The argument about whether or not they are "shredders" or not is useless, because the term does not change the way they play. Maybe they do play with feeling, it's just not feeling I can relate to. I listen to very little blues, because, despite the fact that I think blues can sound great, it can also be a bit limiting. I always find it interesting how people like Malmsteen etc are so in awe of Hendrix, who was essentially a blues player at heart. Hendrix played faster than most blues players did, but Malmsteen and co have taken it to a level where it is alienating; it gets away from the fundamentals of blues. Blues is not about subtlety; it is about hurt and pain and sex. Once you start going into elaborate compositions perhaps you get away from the fact that a few notes are all that are needed. If I want to listen to more subtle feeling I listen to jazz or classical music, which people like Vai simply don't play. They may be great, but in niche that heaps of people don't care about.

[Zeppelin]

when satriani and steve vai were younger they were listening to led zeppelin - jimmy page
when malmsteen was a teenager he was deep purple's big fan
john petruci is doing deep purple covers as well.
get the point?
music dont have to be complicated to be good, besides there are things which you can play if you practice shredding certain amount of time, but there are things that all those shred guys wont be able to play no matter how hard they will try. they dont have anything to say in their music (well maybe satch does have few things and so steve vai) so they just play fast. i bet you no one of them can write a solo like brian may wrote, but he didnt have to play fast to make his solos perfect
ever heard about SRV? i bet you cant play even half of his solos on the speed he played, with .11 or .12 strings and not .9 like all the speedo guys are playing
you think im jealous? why should i be??

besides if you like shredding - go ahead shredd till your fingers will bleed, dont yell at people here because we dont like your kind of music

[Zeppelin]

yeah and who are "we"???
is this joe satriani behind this nickname?
besides i heard malmsteen playing the blues and believe me this is only proves the fact that blues is not about playing 1 4 5 harmony all day long. you have to have certain things like feel to play the blues good, which malmsteen with all the respect (and i do respect him) doesnt have

[Christoph]

Why would anyone be jealous of shredders? Bands like Korn and Linkin Park have made millions by playing one-finger power chords. Why would anyone want to go through all the trouble of learning to shred when they could just slap together a rhythm, a few chords, and some ridiculous vocals and be handed fame and fortune by record execs?

I think you're just a little out of touch, Vlahos. Come and enjoy the glorious ignorance and mediocrity of nu-metal with me. :cool:

[educatedfilm]

"I think you're just a little out of touch, Vlahos. Come and enjoy the glorious ignorance and mediocrity of nu-metal with me." :D...

Right, can i just point something out here.. I was fairly ignorant of the "shreders", Untill poeple from this very site were recomending me stuff to listen to...

What have I found? "Surfing with the alien" is BY FAR the worst album I've heard... I want to hear something with soul and heart.. I dont want to hear something that's been written on spectrum ZX and played at 25notes per second...
THis is very rare, so pay attention, on the high E string I can quite comfortably play at a speed of 18-20 notes per second... Why don't I do this all time? because it sounds crap the second time you do it.... Know what I mean?...(that's probably the only time you'll hear brag about my wierd playing style and odd freak abillities)...

Secondly the human hearing range is about 20-20000 hertz (when your young)... If your playing 20+ per second your listner quite simply isn't gonna be able to decern what your playing...

Please dont slate something with feeling like blues, I mean sure there's crap stuff like every genre... But can you seriously say Hendrix and Page laked feeling?... Come on man... Just relax and enjoy your music and leave everyone elses alone... Dont get wound up man, you'll live longer... :)

[Percival Blues Shredder]

I love both blues and shredding, i dont get that "conflict"
between these two kinds of music...

Hendrix was a blues guitarist but for the late 60s he was also a shredder. SRV, Buddy Guy, Gary Moore, Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton play blues way too fast for a standard blues guitarist still they play from their heart.

Damn, i really dont get it,
is it Blues vs Shred? soul vs speed?

I suggest you listen to "Short tales of the black forest"
by John McLaughlin, Al Di Meola and Pacco De Luccia

by the way Vlahos your name is greek, your parents are from Greece?

[James]

educatedfilm, how do you manage that type of speed on the first string? Some unorthodox approach I assume...

As for this tireless argument, all I have to say is, listen to what you like and don't tread on others for what they like. "Feeling" and "technique"- these are just buzz words in music that both attempt to achieve the same thing- creating a sound that is desirable to the intended listener. If you're not the intended listener of blues, fine, but don't bash it dude.

[trendkillah]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Secondly the human hearing range is about 20-20000 hertz (when your young)... If your playing 20+ per second your listner quite simply isn't gonna be able to decern what your playing...

What does the human hearing range have to do with the speed of playing though?
Maybe you mean that humans don't hear time differences smaller than 30ms? If that's what you meant, you do have a point. BUT, even if you play faster than that, you still create a sound, wether you can actually hear every note that is played or not doesn't matter.
I don't think the only aspect of what can be interesting in music is the "feel" a musician puts into it. There is more to it than that(at least for me), like creating interesting harmonies, sounds, textures,...

Isn't music all about what you PERSONALLY enjoy listening to, or playing? For some people, shredders play with feeling, for some people it's the most boring crap around. But doesn't that go for all types of music? Some like it, some don't, now get over it! ;)

To the guy that started this thread. Do you really care about what other people say about the music you like/play though? I could care less about other peoples' opinions myself, cause in MY opinion, they are ALL wrong!(unless they agree with me of course) ;)


Greetz, TK

[vrnorman]

WOW! This is a great!
As for the comment about classical guitar, go rent the movie Crossroads if you think Steve Vai can't play clasical guitar. He did all of the guitar work in that movie. Steve Vai does play Classical, as well as Ed Van Halen.

As for Jimmi Page, I have had a hard time with that guy since I discovered the stuff that he stole from old Blues guys and claimed as his own.

Blues is music that was written by people feeling bad in an attempt to make them feel better. Blues is not for everybody just like fast is not for everybody.

I have both Steve Vai and Satriani CD's and I think that they actually have gotten board with what they are doing and are trying to take the guitar to a different level. Unfortunately, for the purest that level may be unacceptable to the ear.

I am a blues player, but I also play jazz, rock, and I have been known to play really fast when the urge hits me. Does this mean that I am all screwed up in the mind, or does it mean that I just love what I am doing? I think we are all on the same page here and should respect the love of the instrument and the love for the music that we each have as individuals.

Vlahos, you make valid points but, if you feel the need to argue then maybe you need to go to the Chat rooms. This is suppose to be a forum for sharing ideas not blasting people for their likes and dislikes.

I will fight for your right to SHREDD even if I don't care for the style. Get my point???

KeepOnRockin!

Peace

[skee1]

Vlahos

I really think James hit the nail on the head somewhat,
with hs reply.(Feeling&Technique)
I don't think any guitarist should run down or bash other,
styles of other guitarists.(This is not right!)
I will admit i lean more toward the Blues style,
because i started out in Blues before i got into,
other styles of music.
But i love music, so i like plus try to cover all,
styles of guitar.(And Man thats where it is its all,
(MUSIC)Other guitarists like only one style and thats great.
I like to listen plus try to play all styles of Guitar.
To me i recemmend learning all the technique's if you,
can.About the feel thing not everyone can play with a,
feel or play soulfully when playing guitar!
Playing with feel or soul is hard to explain sometimes,
it can'nt be taught!
Most guitarists that play with feeling at one time or,
another went through some bad times in thier life or,
had something happen to them where the feeling came out,
in thier music later on.(This is like a gift)

Mark
P:S I like all the guitarists you mentioned!

(Man its just Music)

[Vlahos]

Thanks a lot for all your replies

First of all I apologize if I peeved anyone off. I guess I was just in a bad mood. You all make very valid points and I dont prefer shredding over blues.

The main thing I just wanted to find out was why people think that shredders are not creative (a lot of people do) and why people class vai and satriani as shredders. 99% of their music is not shredd. A lot of people say " I prefer blues because it has feeling and you can actually hear the notes played and its not just playing fast all the time". I agree. A lot of shredders can only play shredd but but a lot aslo play many other stlyes. I shredd mainly when I play classical on the nylon or when I play the blues. Shredd isnt just associated with metal I guess. And when I said "we" in the last post, I meant to say they.

And someone in one of the posts said " shredd vs. blues". There is NO shredd vs. blues. You must mean Metal vs. blues. There is shredding while playing the blues and the most effective player I have heard that has combined these two together effectively is eric johnson (damn godd player).

Thanks again.

P.S To the guy who wanted to know, my dad is greek but the
rest of my family is italian so I guess I am more italian.

[trebledamage]

The reason why people bash shredders is that a constant barrage of shredding is like a blatent form of egotism and no one really likes an egotist. Anyone who has been in a band with the typical guitar premadonna can relate to what I'm saying. A whole CD or concert of shredding says to many, "Look at me!! Wow, I'm so impressive!! Don't concern yourself with the SONG, or the other band members!! Focus on me!! Me, Me, Me!!" That's why people bash shredders. Now before you go off and get offended, I happen to like some of the stuff that Malmsteen, Vai, Satriani, and many of the "Mike Varney University" graduates have produced. But a steady diet of that type of music, whether your a fan or not, gets old very quickly.

People associate "the shredder" with the basketball player who loves to score, but plays no defense and registers no assists in a game. There is much more to music than the guitar solo (I know that's hard to believe). The great players create songs as well as solos. The great players no how to make the other musicians around them sound better than they are. The great ones no how to back off and let the singer sing, the band play and then blow everyone away with a memorable 16 measure solo. If you believe that Steve Vai and Joe Satriani have accomplished that during their respective careers, good for you. If others have different opinions, you should respect them.

[Led Zeppelin]

Why do I hate shredding? I can walk into any guitar/instrument shop in my area(actually 90% of guitar shops in Dublin are on the same few streets beside each other) and hear a barrage of notes from all sides. Its impossile to stand in one of those places. I bought my last guitar in the cafe across the road (it was a Saturday afternoon and there was about 20 people all playing at the same time). The point is, alot of guitarists paticularly under the age of 30 are obsessed by shredding. And alot of them see shredding as the ultimate in music. And a few I know (one in paticular) will harrass you for reasons why you dont like them. Its annoying for the nonshredder.

And by the way, I want to know how anyone can put feeling into a song while playing 20bps+? To be honest, its beyond me.

[James]

Do you mean 200bpm+?
Feeling... a buzz word!


I think we need to distinguish between a song that has a solo in it (most bands), and an instrumental act such as Vai or Malmsteen or Di Meola, ya know? Because speed and the focality (is that a word?) of the guitar is going to be different in the two different musical situations.

[Vlahos]

I'll have to admitt, the majority of shredders only shredd all the time. They cant do anything else and they think they are cool cause they can play really fast. But why do you think only a hand full of them recieve success when they shredd? Its becasue there are great shredders and there are the crap ones that you find making a mess of notes in a guitar shop like Led Zepplin or James stated. The reason why these people are great is because, even though they play fast, they pick the scales and progressions that evoke emotion in there songs. Led Zepplin, you want to know how someone playing really fast can be creative? Well this is why. When a slower great player plays, they are usually great for there ability to pick the most perfect notes so that they make what they are playing evoke feeling into the listener. The same goes for shredders. The great shredders can create a complex involvement of runs and sweeps and the end result can become quite breathtaking (about 3 I've heard can actually do it). You have to look at some of the 300+ note runs as a whole rather than individual notes played really fast one by one. But, I have to admitt something. Being in a room with the other 99% of other shredders is like being in hell.

thanks

[educatedfilm]

20bps is 1200bmp... Which is pointless... It's a physical imposibility to distinuish what's going on...
I dont mind shredding, as long as it doesnt turn in something thats used for attention, or to fill in weak parts...

[SRVLIVES]

To paraphrase,

"'Tis better to play a few notes and be thought a fool than to play hundreds and remove all doubt"

p.s and I am a blues guitarist

[Azrael]

hmmmm...

I can only say that i´ve heard a concert with Satriani, Vai and Eric Johnson...

although johnson could not compete with vai´s and satriani´s technique, his guitarplay had more to say than vai´s and satriani´s together


-=[Azrael]=-

[Bardsley]

As a fan of the beboppers, I have to say that a lot of notes can sound great when used properly. It is the effect that the notes create together, a "wall of sound" that is heard, and the sound can be amazing. It is hard to play a slow solo well because every note you play is completely integral. It is hard to play a fast solo well because you have to stay focused (aside from the technique problems) and make sure that you are not simply mindlessly playing notes.

[CrAzY j]

Wow! Lots of reading there...

I kinda like Satriani and Vai. I also like Eric Johnson and even Eddie Van Halen. I really have no intention of trying to be them though.

I also think Page, Jeff Beck, and Clapton all have their merits. Some of my favorite songs were done by the old time blues players, stuff I would have never heard if not for the public radio blues and jazz hour late at night...

I just hope that a little bit of it "rubs off" from each influence. I can respect a classical player for the techniques they perfect as well, even though I don't listen mainly to that style.

So much music to choose from. I can't understand why anyone would "limit" themselves to only hearing one style.

[Azrael]

face it!

Jeff Beck is incredible! - have u ever listened closely to songs like "Where were you" or "brush with the blues" or his version of "a day in a life" ???

He realy makes his guitar sing! Noone has a tone and a phrasing like him. Technique isnt everything!
-=[Azrael]=-