A word on islam

[blackrose]

Ever since the denouncement of Laden, I've been hearing a lot of stuff about how muslums are just like other people and hate violence. This may be true here in America but fact is in the middle east feelings aren't quite that amiable...there really is a problem with the islamic religion and factions it views as opposing to its beliefs. For example, there have been more christians killed for their beliefs in the past century than all of history before including the Roman colluseum, and a large portion of these deaths have been from *cough* muslums. To get the idea of the tragedy of this, by the time you have finished reading this at least one christian in the middle east has been killed probably by torure and anywhere from one to a dozen have been imprisoned for their beliefs. Out of the people imprisoned pretty much only torture and death are left for them unless God intervenes and manages for their release because there is no way in hell or on earth that anyone is going to do anything on their behalf except pray. I'm not trying to get all of you fired up against muslums in the name of God, but just remember that next time someone says that all people are good at heart and that in spite of our differences that we all basically have good intentions that that person is so completely and utterly clueless that words cannot describe his stupidity.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by blackrose
. . . but just remember that next time someone says that all people are good at heart and that in spite of our differences that we all basically have good intentions that that person is so completely and utterly clueless that words cannot describe his stupidity.

I know, man. I know. I just wish more people could see it with the clarity that you have just described. Most of us, however, are just too preoccupied with not offending our enemies, with no thought to the fact that they would blow you sky high if they got the chance.

You only have to look inside a preschool classroom to see that humans are born completely corrupt. Anyone who thinks or rationalizes otherwise is, as you say, utterly clueless.

[PonyOne]

For this discussion, on peoples' inherent good/badness, i think we need only turn to the lyrics of Links 2 3 4 by Rammstein:

Can you break hearts
can hearts speak
can you torture hearts
can you steal hearts

They want my heart on the right spot
but then I look below
it beats left there

Can hearts sing
can a heart burst
can hearts be pure
can a heart be made of stone

They want my heart on the right spot
but then I look below
it beats left there
left two three four left *

Can you ask hearts
(can you) carry a child under yourself
can you give it away
(can you) think with your heart

They want my heart on the right spot
but then I look below
it beats there in the left breast
the envious have not known it well

Left two three four left

* "Left two three four" is as in an army chant for marching.

[educatedfilm]

". For example, there have been more christians killed for their beliefs in the past century than all of history before including the Roman colluseum, and a large portion of these deaths have been from *cough* muslums."

no offence blackrose, but what the hell are you talking about? over the twentieth centuary there have been 6 million jews murdered by a European, 10 milion plus slaves in Siberia by an communist athiest, an over all estimated 40 million deaths during the second world war, 4 million poeple killed by Mr Pot, 1.5 million iraqi's due to Bush Snr/Clinton/ Bush Jnr.... Where do muslims figure in all of this? And are you forgetting the deaths of prodestants/ catholics due to each other?
Do your reaserch into the middle east man! You'll see it's not to do with "hateful" poeple, it's with political oppresion, poverty, suppourt of isreal, borders formed by forigeners... Come on man! The middle east has it's issues, unfortunatly the poeple in the media estimate that Jo Public's attention span is 1.5 minutes, and so stories to get "simplified", and quite coincedently it happens to be in favour of what the media has intrests in....

You'r falling into the age old trap of believing all you hear! When during the 20th centuary did christains get persecuted by muslims? The british soldiers in Sudan?...
It's very distressing to see this mindless hysteria and see poeple giving into the herd mentality and supourting this....
"are just too preoccupied with not offending our enemies"
Where were you when the president clear as day said "our war is not with islam"?

Another misconception used to gloss over the middle east issue, is that the terrorist did what they did because they "dont agree with our life style"... Why the hell hasn't Britan, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Canda etc been attacked? The answer lies within US forign policy...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 11:59 AM]

[educatedfilm]

"have good intentions that that person is so completely and utterly clueless that words cannot describe his stupidity."
You do that... When ever anyone offers to push your car when it wont start, will let you use their phone in an emergency, when your getting mugged and they decide to risk being beaten up or stabbed by helping you out ...
About the torture of christains... Which country are you reffering to?
There are all types of poeple being tourtured not nesicerly because of their religion, but should we only care and take notice of christians... Humans are humans regardless of their religion...
This like baseless, or based on a few incidences, tye hysteria...
About Bin laden: You do know he's pretty much arch enemies with the poeple of Iran, and the Saudi Government?
The only reason that the palastinian poeple suppourt him is that one of his main policies is "secuirity for the palastians", and they hope he'll help them out of the oppresion they're suffering...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 12:14 PM]

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by educatedfilm

About Bin laden: You do know he's pretty much arch enemies with the poeple of Iran, and the Saudi Government?
The only reason that the palastinian poeple suppourt him is that one of his main policies is "secuirity for the palastians", and they hope he'll help them out of the oppresion they're suffering...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 12:14 PM]

the palestinian officials do not support him at all, besides the guy doesnt realy give a damn about palestinian problem, let me remind you that back in 1998 when he blew up the american embassies in africa he didnt say a word about palestinian.
the reason they (muslims) hate the usa so much is the same reason that made the soviet union government to hate the west - since all their ideas on which they had based their rulles and laws proved to be wrong, and they had to blame someone- the blamed the usa, instead of saying "ok maybe we cant build a country based on religious rulles that are 1500 years old" they just blamed the usa in some stupid crusade thing

[PonyOne]

Again, my brother in Judaism, I don't think Muslims as a whole are the ones who are anyone's enemy. I think that there are some people who are are Muslim who deserve a serious ass-kicking, but then, there are just as many Christians, Jews, etc. who are just as bad.

Although there was an Israeli official who wrote Time or Newsweek in regards to an article in which the writer made mention of Jewish and Christian and Hindu and Buddhist extremists and made an elloquent point:
Judaism has its religious fanatics, but we're not the ones that fly airliners into skyscarapers in the name of God."

And before Eddy retorts with Israel's attacks on Palestine, hey, if you decide that you're gonna bomb pizzerias, schools, dance clubs and town squares, I think that you kind of throw away your right to complain when a missile attack claims the life of a guy who plots bombings. And if someone else dies in that process who wasn't invovled... here's an idea: put your f-ing guns down, quit wiring your f-ing bombs, and this time, don't start picking up stones and bricks to hurl. See what happens.

I'm more of a socialist, but I am still an American, and I find it funny when people from other nations start yammering about how they're better and then about how America is evil for their foul tempting of morals in the same sentences. If they're so great, and so holy, then it shouldn't matter how tempted you get, you should hold out.

If you can hold onto your morals against violence when someone threatens you, then good for you. I did recently (i speak of this in my "legal advice" post) and the sonofa is stil walking because of it. But if someone come up to someone else and thretaens their life, shoves them, hits them, etc, and that person pulls out a gun and kills the aggressor, well then that's too bad for the aggressor.
You can hold fast to your morals but you can't force them on others. I'm a vegetraian, my fiance isn't. I hate pop but my sister can go ahead and listen to it.

Fundamentalist muslims can go ahead and practice as they see fit. They can smash tv's, not listen to western music or buy tennis shoes, whatever, that's fine, and there isn't anything wrong with doing the Mormon thing and passing out pamphlets, because you aren't forcing anyone to do anything, you're just spreading your word. I'll never be mormon but I'm not offended when I get a pamphlet telling me that I'll go to hell for not being one of them becuase I don't believe in their hell.
But when you burst into my house, beat me half to death for not having a beard, throw acid on my fiance's face becasue she's proud of her looks, burn my guitar, smash the icons of my faith and then tell me worse will come unless I conform, like the Taliban have done to the Afghanis and like the Palestinians would love to do to the Israelis, my people, you're asking for it in force.
Yes, american programs dominate world media, and American-derived fashions are big everyehere, but as much of an evil prick as G.W. is, he isn't walking into houses in Libya and forcing you to do whatever. If Islam and Muslims are so sanctified, as Bin Laden says, then how come he has to KILL non-muslims to keep immoral ways from corrupting them?

Stick to your guns, everyone, but don't point em at anybody without a reason or you're setting yourself up for something nasty.

[educatedfilm]

hmmmm...I argee with Ponyone here....
"the palestinian officials do not support him at all" Yes, you'r absoloutly right but there are a few palastinains who suppourt him, which are flashed at us by CNN now and then..

"And before Eddy retorts with Israel's attacks on Palestine, hey, if you decide that you're gonna bomb pizzerias, schools, dance clubs and town squares, I think that you kind of throw away your right to complain when a missile attack claims the life of a guy who plots bombings"

Hold on, I'm in total agreement that if you can prove in a court of law that Said person is responsible, I think they should be excuted (this goes for settlers who shoot up palastinains too)... But when an Isreali soldier kills a ten year old boy, by standing on him and hitting him in the head repeatedly with his rifle butt, and then gets SIX MONTHS!!!! That's an insult!
Sending in helicopter gunships and f-16 to bomb civilain areas is outrageous... Alot of the poeple who die had nothing to do with it (quite cosly called "collatral damage" instead of victims), the isreali intelligence just suspects... In the end more palastinains die than Isrealis wich is really what i'm on about... If it was an eye for an eye, I woulndn't be complaining, I d'd be sitting here telling you that they're both dumbasses...
I'm infact Lybian born, and I must admit, there used be alot anti-american feeling post 86 (when libya got bombed by the US and they kept on hitting residentail areas and saying "suspected terorist targets",and eventaully they hit the french embassy, and i was in Benghazi as it was getting bombed, very scary I can tell you...), but it's faded, and the poeple like alot of the other arab countries feel depressed by the fact they're all lead by dictators... They're not looking to blame the west, and they dont want war....

"here's an idea: put your f-ing guns down, quit wiring your f-ing bombs, and this time, don't start picking up stones and bricks to hurl. See what happens."

Eh? I dont get you there... The palastiains (by international law) have the right to fight occupation... The problem is what everyone calls occupation is different... Anyway, you cant be blown up just be cause some stranger two doors down is on the list... What happened to justice here?

"then how come he has to KILL non-muslims to keep immoral ways from corrupting them? "
I've not heard this... There is quote about killing american citizens, but the question it self was very dilibretly phrased so that there would be a story, as opposed to find out what's going on... I'll go into some other time... I've really got to go tobed now...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-05-2001 at 05:50 PM]

[educatedfilm]

sorry to double post again...
Ben Laden doesn't speak for the arabs or muslims, however he knows how to manipulate, and introduce touchy subjects, like Isreal and america's supourt to the Saudi royal family, in to things.... Which seems to get a reaction (not neciserily good), and the fact that world super power cant get him is adding to this problem, as he'll be proclaiming it's god's will he's still alive... even though the Koran clearly states noone knows the will of god other than god him self... but there you are...

[blackrose]

I didn't intend for this to become such a conversational post so quickly...oh well. Anyways eddy, its obvious that you know quite a bit about the middle east, but regardless of who is right in this discusion the point still stands...people are not good at heart like anne frank said...you don't need to teach a 5 year old to lie or steal other kids crayons. It doesn't matter if the kid is a christian, muslim, jew, satanist, or whatever the hell his parents raised him to be. We all suck as individuals when it comes to morals.

"When during the 20th centuary did christains get persecuted by muslims?"

the whole 20th century.

"Do your reaserch into the middle east man! You'll see it's not to do with "hateful" poeple, it's with political oppresion, poverty, suppourt of isreal, borders formed by forigeners..."

those things act rather quickly when it comes to producing hateful people. The cause and the effect are interchangeable.

"About the torture of christains... Which country are you reffering to?"

in a most literal sense every country that has a muslim-influenced government or is mostly composed of muslims and has a weak government. You go to almost any country in the middle east except Israel and say try to convert a person to christianity and I guarantee that you will be beaten into a coma within 48 hours.

Oh by the way eddy, you're not the only person I know who lives in the middle east, so don't think I'm entirely clueless, I just am about matters in Israel.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Zeppelin
. . . besides the guy doesnt realy give a damn about palestinian problem, let me remind you that back in 1998 when he blew up the american embassies in africa he didnt say a word about palestinian.

If old Bin gave a damn about anybody, he'd be out helping people with his millions of dollars, instead of blowing stuff up. He could really care less about the Palestinians. He just wants to use that whole issue to whip up sentiment for him.

Originally posted by blackrose
...you don't need to teach a 5 year old to lie or steal other kids crayons.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Young children are selfish, spiteful, and devious because they haven't learned that there are negative consequences for their actions. Evil comes naturally to us, and everything else must be conditioned and taught to us by our parents and society.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
The palastiains (by international law) have the right to fight occupation...

Exactly who are they being occupied by? That's Israeli land that they're sitting on, rightfully taken by Israel thousands of years ago before the palestinians even existed as a people. By all accounts, the palestinians are occupying Israeli land, and Israel has the right to take it back by any means.

[PonyOne]

OK, what I meant in regards to putting down stones and bricks and ceasing bomb production, was that perhaps if the Israelis didn't feel so threatened, they wouldn't be as inclined to fight back.

If an Israeli soldier smashes a ten year old kid's head open with the stock of his rifle while that boy is pinned down and poses no threat, then he deserves the same punishment as a Palestinian who does the same to an Israeli boy.
If, as in the first three days of fighting, a ten year old boy gets shot through the head by an Israeli bullet because his dad took him to an anti-Israeli riot where there were guns going off on both sides as well as rocks being hurled, and his dad pushed him out to run while they were already behind cover, that's his dad's fault for being an idiot, not the Israeli army's. I recall israel making a plea to Palestinian parents NOT to bring their kids to protests because they didn't want kids getting hurt... not like they listened, after all, their kids go to super-heaven, right?

I don't think that out-and-out evil comes naturally to people, I think it's more an ignorant sefishness. Most young children don't understand the concept of other people, only themselves and their convictions and desires. When a four year old walks across the room and grabs the crayons from another kid, maybe even punches him in the process, it's not to inflict pain upon that other kid, rather, it's to achieve his goals (getting the crayons) by any means possible (stealing and/or punching the other kid, who does not have feelings in the mid of the aggressive child).

According to all those who knew me when I was tiny, I always had a pretty good level of compassion for others... that's what hearing your mom bawling her eyes out because your dad's out at sea and she feels worthless, or seeing people die painful deaths later in life will do to you).

Largely, kids end up with their parents' morals. Most kids I grew up with or know now who had absentee parents ended up being pretty nice, decent people, which I think attests to a person's natural leanings. Most of the people I've met who were really nasty either were spoiled rotten or had jerks for parents (my girlfriend's mom is mean, so is her sister, and her dad isn't there, but she ended up pretty nice).

[Bardsley]

I think that selfishness is natural, but I think that hate and evil are not. Hate arises through people's inability to deal with things going against their selfish desires in a positive way, or through indoctirnation, but I don't think that kids hate when they are young, just, as PonyOne mentioned, because they have no sense of the "other". As I am not a huge fan of the idea of perfect morals (I am too much of a philosophy student), I tend to see parents and other elders in a child's life to simply educate them well about the way in which others are people in the same way as they are. I am fairly utilitarian, though i have HUGE problems with many utilitarian ideas (part of the reason why moral philosophy is so interesting is the way in which people really have to take their beliefs from many different ideals), so I see it as important to think of what is least likely to cause suffering as being desirable outcomes. I'm not sure where I am going with this, but I think that selfishness is something we can deal with, and we should try to teach ways in which our selfish desires do not have to lead to hate.

[Julius]

Well, I am from Lebanon and I am christian catholic. I have to admit that the civil war done in the 70s in Lebanon was started by foreign interference. Right now, muslims and christians are living in total harmony. And let me say that muslims are just humans like me and u, and I have a lot of muslims friends. It's the extremists that should have been kicked. There are also extremist christians (please don't say no). An extremist for his religion is someone who understands his religion on his own, someone who misunderstands it. It's not the heart of religion.

It's the media that does its own manipulation, for example, on september 11, after the dramatic act, the media showed some guys about 20 of them in palestine having a gig and shouting and dancing and stuff. While 99% of the palestinans where very sorry for this act of terror.

So please, don't send any garbage concerning the middle east. Why don't u come here and check if there's any problem?

[educatedfilm]

Well said Juiluis...
Blackrose: I know a couple of christian arabs on a first name basis in libya (admitidly there's not many), and they dont get shtik... Why would muslims give christains and jews shtik? They're both mention in the Koran with the upmost respect for being "the poeple of the of the book"?

Also concerning extremists, there was a settler who used to come down to the palastinain areas with out his weapons, have a freindly chat and cup of coffee with the locals and he was a Libyain jew, an arab. He'd been doing this for years, untill some moron decided he'd shoot him for being a settler, not because he'd done anything, the cafe owner tried to stop the guy by throwing a metal chair at him, but it was too late...

Christoph: I agree with your first quote utterly...
As for the third... The settlements on the west bank is a form of occupation... I dont think palastinains should go and kill them... but they have a right to resist...
"That's Israeli land that they're sitting on, rightfully taken by Israel thousands of years ago before the palestinians even existed as a people"
How the hell do you figure that? In that case the italians would be taking back most of north africa, and Europe claiming it to be theirs due to the romans, as the arabs weren't there as poeple....
Also do i remeber rightly that jews belive that the messia will come and lead them to victory, giving them Isreal ? Where is the messiah? I've also seen a few anti-Isreal demonstartions by Jews because of this principal..

I agree with most of what you've said there ponyone,
"and his dad pushed him out to run while they were already behind cover, "
????? Watch the clip, they were stranded, and they were BOTH behind cover, and they BOTH got shot crouching down... It's not this that's the main problem, it's best show by an isreali "activist" group which set up 900+ "coffins" in Tela Viv,symbolising the "intifada", the black ones were palastinain, and the white ones were Isrealis, and the poeple how've done this a pretty clever, cos all you see is this black ocean, with few white seaguls floating in their midst... My problem is that More palastinains are dying... and noone in the media totals the number during the week and then compares them!! So it goes mostly un-noticed..

[Starman]

Sorry Guys I don't mean to be rude but what has all this got to do with playing the guitar?

[educatedfilm]

Nothing... But we like to get things off our chests... hope this doesn't bother you...

[Christoph]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
How the hell do you figure that? In that case the italians would be taking back most of north africa, and Europe claiming it to be theirs due to the romans, as the arabs weren't there as poeple....

Well, if you want to look at it from a more modern perspective, you could say that Israel conquered it again in 1967. Either way, it's theirs.

[PonyOne]

Yeah, if you wanna talk about something guitar related, just post, and we'll reply. But, we musicians always have our heads in politics...

The issue in regards to how there have been a markedly higher number of Palestinians killed than Israelis; so what? It's a war, and saying that it's not fair is dead on: no war is fair! The Israelis don't die in large numbers because there's nobody saying that it's honorable to strap a bomb to yourself or rush a machine gun encampment with a knife.

From what I saw, the father looked like he made the decision to leave his cover with his son; the Israelis didn't get over a loudspeaker and say "hey, you, that guy with the kid, go ahead and make a mad dash, we'll quit shooting. Oops, look at that, you son's head just popped open." The blame in that lies on the father for being an idiot. Or to the Palestinians in that fight who were dim enough to go head to head with one of the most highly trained armies in the world, despite that army's warnings that they were using live ammo and that they would shoot to kill. Members of the Israeli military and government even pleaded to Arafat and and the Palestinians to NOT charge their gun encampments and checkpoints, but they were too caught up in this infitadeh to listen.
Now things are different, I think; even though there never was a point where ALL of Palestine was united in arms or anything, I think that most of the people who were a year ago going to rallies and screaming "death to israel" have realised that they aren't ever going to win as long as they try violence.
That footage of the twenty people cheering in the streets was, as I recall, later found to be about five or ten years old. Not to say it didn't happen, but the American media played it up and didn't mention that there were two young Palestinian men beaten to death by other Paelstinans for for cheering "death to America" in front of a news camera. Or that a guy from NPR (national public radio, in the US) who was in Palestine, interviewing a cheering protester, asked if he had any idea how many people were in the WTC, and he thought that it was a few hundred, and it was filled by American military and Mossad members! When he was told that there could have been as many as fifty thousand people in that building and that they were almost all civilians, he stopped cheering, looked shocked and abruptly left the protest to pray.The Palestinians are poorly educated, but not stupid; they don't really have any idea how Western life is, and what they do know are, largely, skewed views brought by people who subscribe to the Taliban-ish camp. Just like how, for those of us who haven't ever been over there, our views are shaped by our media and the viewpoints of those we know who have been there. As a Jew, I have heard more about that region than most, and much of it is leaning more toward the Israeli struggle.

My opinion on the moron who got his son killed is formed more on my opinion than from the American media's. The US media was playing "little darling" with the Palestinians for weeks until there were those two Israeli reservists that got lynched, and then they just pulled out of the story. Americans are suckers for the causes of the downtrodden, and I thinkt hat the Israel/Palestine issue has made people more awkward than anything else. Sure, the Palestinians are a ragtag bunch of loveable rebels, but the Israelis don't kill people and then carry their mutilated bodies through the streets for amusement. But then, a ten year old Palestinan was killed by an Israeli bullet, that can't be right. Americans, to some degree, just like any other group of people out there, like to, and to some level, need to be told what to think and to agree with.

I, too, have a few utilitarian beliefs, namely, the notion that is someone is going to cause hitler/stalin/milosevic/saddam-esque suffering, they should be neutralized by whatever means possible so that the masses do not suffer.
What I don't agree with is the idea that parents should be able to legally kill their children until they are a valid and productive member of society, or that the physically and mentally disable are a financial/economic burden on their families and society and thus should be euthanized to save the money/pain of said others.
It's a fundamentally flawed theory, as it more or less seeks hedonism and total lack of bad feelings, but doesn't do much to explain what should happen to those who can only be brught happiness and enjoyment by the suffering and death of others.
The only real, "confirmed" utilitarian i ever had ready contact with, at the end of an argument on killing kids, I firmly told "you bring me unhappiness" and pulled a box cutter on him (didn't do anything, though, didn't plan to). He reanalyzed his priorities and found new ones after that. I guess he never got that concept of other people we were talking about...

[blackrose]

"They're both mention in the Koran with the upmost respect for being "the poeple of the of the book"?"

Im not talking about the traditional muslims who are, for the most part, peaceful. Im talking about the extremists who dont give a crap what the koran says as long as they can use their own religion for their own benifit. Contrary to common belief, this group of people is not an "incredible minority" and actually makes up a large portion of the muslim population outside the US.

Oh, and for all of you people that think that how life is where you live with the christians and muslims in harmony is the way it is everywhere else...you need to keep in mind that you arent seeing the worst or anywhere near it. How I know? You all live in a place that is politically stable and economically prosperous enough that you all can afford to use the internet and do. I dont think anyone is going to argue with me on this point.

Anyways, the topic of christians vs. muslims should be ended right now because thats not what this topic is about, the natural cruely of humanity is. And of course, there is no way that im going to convince you or you convince me so its really pointless.

[educatedfilm]

forive me here, but when has an officail war been decalared between Isreal and the palastinains?... It's not right to have a great asymetry in the numbers, and something needs to be done quick, as the side with the smaller number has less to lose and so is more likly to carry on, and this means it's gonna need outside intervention...
I do agree with alot of what you've said though, Including the fact that the images were old, which i posted about straight away, but i had a hard time convincing poeple...
Christoph: I'm sensing an unfair bias there...

[Christoph]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
It's not right to have a great asymetry in the numbers, and something needs to be done quick . . .

So you think that we should have an equal number of dead people on both sides? Now that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

Maybe we should have the U.N. come in and kill a bunch of Israelis to make up for the difference.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
Christoph: I'm sensing an unfair bias there...

You always sense an "unfair bias" when things don't go your way.

[PonyOne]

What's not fair is that this whole matter is even an issue. Evening out the numbers would only mean more death which is not just. It needs to stop right here, right now, that's what would be right.

Will it happen? Not before Fender ventures into the medical industry...

[sherif]

well ... hi everybody !! all i wanted to say is that u shouldn't judje people by their looks or appearence !!! right ??? onething .. I SHOULD THANK ALL THE PPL THAT SWEARED AT MUSLEMS in a bad way .. actually .. i won't be that low to reply them back !! coz i think Muslems are better than others in forgiving mistakes !! that doesn't mean that Christians are bad .. i have too many friends who are Christians !! and by the way my gf is chrristian .. but there is something which is really good bout it !! I do respect so much !! there should be some respect between me and her ... even if war does exist .. violence won't solve it ... but the main point comes .. am not taking any one's side when i say the Ben-Laden has nothing to do with what has happened to America !! but in my school ( I do study in the Universal American School of Kuwait ) i found out that young children who don't know where does the story start from accuse Ben-Laden .. well ,, all i know is that if there is one good enough reason that shows the BEN-LADEN was behind this ... i should aid America to get him !!!
but the pro. no evidence !! it's just suspecious !!! but leeme tell you ppl that 9 of my teachers in the school think that what happened in the 11th of september was done by AMERICANS !! not muslims .. The other thing is that it's totally UNFAIR to kill PALASTENIAN CHILDREN and TAKE A FULL CONTROL OVER THE LAND !! is that what u call it peace .. actually .. it's not .. so don't blame muslims to defend or to react violently with that !! u should all understand that we don't hate people .. just leave us the hell alone .. and we don't need anything !! that's all .. and sorry for disturbing !! THANX BLACKROSE !!!

Sherif

[educatedfilm]

If you even out the number both sides will be more commited as each side will see the have as much to lose as the other, and yes i do think it needs to stop, but I think expecting it anytime soon is wishful thinking... Evening out the numbers means reducing the deaths, not putting them up!
"Maybe we should have the U.N. come in and kill a bunch of Israelis to make up for the difference. "
Or we could do the sensible thing, and let the un in to investigate Isreal's use of force, which has bluntly been rejected by the current government... Evening out the numbers means making mossad and the Isreali soldier's less heavy handed, and making them do some investigations , as opposed to planting bombs on suspects cars/ phones etc.
I dont think this'll happen under sharon though...
Christoph : Your standing up for Isreal for things which go beyond reason, there were a million plus arabs there, and that's documented... yes there was a large number (no where near all) were bought, but i defy you to buy a ranch in the US and try to set up your own country, you'll have the military on your door step the next morning, because it's wrong...

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Christoph
Exactly who are they being occupied by? That's Israeli land that they're sitting on, rightfully taken by Israel thousands of years ago before the palestinians even existed as a people. By all accounts, the palestinians are occupying Israeli land, and Israel has the right to take it back by any means.

So who's tribal land are you currently occupying? Cree? Soux? Iriquois? Apache? Unless you live in Rhode Island, you're living on stolen soil.

The people who invaded Isreal died hundreds of years ago, after a few generations "taking back" land is really very irrelivent. The people responsible, the people displaced, and all there children are gone, so basicly everyone there is a native. The "we stole it fair and square" argument has got to go. If you really want to get right down to it, the first Israelis (if you will) had to take the same peice of land we're talking about from people who lived there. The more we did, the more we find that Israel has been contested land since people first left Africa. Sadly, I don't see this changing soon.

Try looking at this from more of a Palestinian perspective: You're being kicked off the land your people have lived on for hundreds of years so your home can be torn down and replaced by trailers for some jerkoff who just moved in from New Jersey will have a place to live because he happens to be of the same religeon/decent of the people your great-great-great-great-great uncle's cousin drove off the land.
Would you just say "eh, I guess this guy deserves it more than I do?"

And the real pisser about this is that if you boil everything down, Palestinians and Israelis really want the same things:

Jerusalem as the capital of their state
Freedom to practice their religeon in peace
Security
To live happy and satisfying lives on the collection of dirt we know today as Israel.

But the added complication is that neither side is paticuarly happy with the other. Otherwise they could form one country and be done with it.

[Bardsley]

What?! How dare you come in her ewith your highfilutin ways and give a sensible response to a problem? j/k, nice post. It's interesting here in Australia how we are currently going through problems because of a whole lot of refugees (that the government doesn't like to call refugees) coming here in boats illegally. There is this whole thing about "illegal boat people" not thinking about the fact that 200 years ago (not really that long) we were the illegal boat people, and we slaughtered and displeced millions of the aboriginal communities who had been living in Australia for about 40,000 years. Of course, when Aborigines ask to have some land back we complain, so it's not as if we stand up for some sort of "we were here first policy".

[educatedfilm]

Welcome back rask... yeah, as i've said before I'm not really intrested about what happened 2 or 3 generations back, what we need to do is sort out the current problems...
Whether the lands belongs to the Isreali's or the Palastinains isn't an issue any more, how to integrate or segrigate the two societies is...

[Zeppelin]

Hey all the muslims around i have a question to ask:
do you know what happened in 1949 when a cease fire was signed between israel and all the arab nations around?
thousands of palestinians found themselves inside jordan egypt lebanon and syria
do you know which country was the only one to make them citizens, instead of putting them into gettho style camps???
righty it was israel
do you know that according to the british and world maps of the 20's of the 20 century palestine includes modern jordan, the british already founded palestinian state back in the 20's when they formed jordan, which according to their, not our maps is the east side of palestine
do you know that according to dennis ross, the negotiations
in camp david failed only because arafat wasnt ready to sign the stupid paper??/

how can you blame israel for shooting kids, when in every riot of those kids gunmen hides between those kids?
those kids are only cover for the gunmen, kind of human shelter

You are all saying "lets forget the past problems and deal with the modern one" but you cant blame israel on this or any other war in the region and then when people like me prove you it was the muslims fault to say "it doesnt matter" because it does. the zionist in the 20-30's of the last century didnt conquered any single mile of this land
they bought all the land they could from the palestinians and tried to live here in peace
the palestinians started the violence when one day they desided they want to kill few jews in jaffo, and since then they never stoped their violence. according to the UN there were supposed to be two countries here ITS NOT ISRAEL'S FAULT THERE IS NO PALESTINIAN ONE. THEY STARTED THE ****ING WAR AND THEY LOST IT. NO ONE TO BLAME EXCEPT THEMSELVES.
they could deside wether they choose peace or war, and you all know what they have chosen, so they cant delete all the past, like one day sudenly the bad israelis arived and kicked their asses, they started it all, they have to admit it someday

[Christoph]

Thank you, Zeppelin, for that dose of sanity. It was sorely needed.


*Sigh* Eddy, Bardsley, and Rasky. Like three little ducklings in a row, all quacking in agreement.

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
So who's tribal land are you currently occupying? Cree? Soux? Iriquois? Apache? Unless you live in Rhode Island, you're living on stolen soil.


The Americas were conquered several hundred years ago by the "evil" Europeans. My understanding of the word 'conquer' is that the people who are defeated subsequently give up the rights to the land (or whatever). So I have every right to be sitting here on what used to be Apache land, because it was conquered and taken, not stolen. (It isn't like the Indians were doing anything with it anyway.)

The same goes for Israel. Except they have conquered the land over and over again (the 6 Day War, etc), and have even offered concessions to the defeated. They offered the Palestinians citizenship, even when their fellow Arab countries didn't want them, and have offered them their own government and now even their own state.

And what do the Israelis get in return? The Palestinians strap bombs on and blow themselves up in the middle of crowded malls and shops filled with innocent people.

The Palestinians either need to realize that they're not going to accomplish anything through their glorious infatada, or they can keep going out to throw pebbles at Israeli tanks and then cry for more blood when their children are slain.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Or we could do the sensible thing, and let the un in to investigate Isreal's use of force...

Israel has every right to use force. They're defending their country!!!

[Bardsley]

I thought that in the twentieth century we had grown out of ideas about "conquering" land. Does this mean that Palestine have every right to continue to fight with Israel, because one day they might win and then they will have "conquered" Israel?
As for the "it's not like they were using it anyway" story, how do you know? Hundreds of places in Australia are seen as sacred sites by Aboriginal tribes, but becaus ethey didn't feel the need to build huge momuments like western cultures on sacred sites (why should they, after all the land is what is revered), settlers came here and declared the land "terra nullius", and decided that it wasn't being used. Also, by suggesting that Aboriginal tribes weren't "using" particular land, thus making it easy pickings, ignores the whole way in which nmadic people cultivate the environment, moving on to leave time for the land to grow back and replenish. I don't know anything about Native American cultures, so that is why I am referring to cultures of my country, but seeing as the things you said are often things said supporting England's colonisation of Australia, I believe I am right in making a comparison.
I have actually attempted to stay out of the debate about whether Palestine or Israel is in the "right", becaus I don't know enough (and don't pretend to) about the situation, but I simply think that saying "Isrrael are right so it doesn't matter how many Palestinians get killed" is an unattractive solution to a problem. Yes, Arafat is a hopeless leader, who I hope will lose power soon, but when both sides see themselves as retaliating against previous violence, something has to stop on both sides.

[Zeppelin]

the only reason there is more dead palestinians than jews is because they dont have a well trained and equiped army like we do. they cant blame us in being stronger, or they expect us to throw our weapons away and to turn ourselves to freaking suicide bombers like them?

[educatedfilm]

"do you know what happened in 1949 when a cease fire was signed between israel and all the arab nations around? "
Isreal was "declared" in 48, the arabs hadn't had a choice, and who signed the papers?


"do you know that according to the british and world maps of the 20's of the 20 century palestine "

you can use that as an example!! The british were on the side of the jews from 1917 (the Balfor declaration), and they delbrtly split up the arabs world to share with the Italians and the French...

"do you know that according to dennis ross, the negotiations
in camp david failed only because arafat wasnt ready to sign the stupid paper??/ "

Dennis Ross is jewish and has served in the Isreali millitary!!! The man is bound to say that...

"You are all saying "lets forget the past problems and deal with the modern one" but you cant blame israel on this or any other war in the region and then when people like me prove you it was the muslims fault to say"

I would like you to read the recently released papers on the 56 war...

"And what do the Israelis get in return? The Palestinians strap bombs on and blow themselves up in the middle of crowded malls and shops filled with innocent people."

Stop using this emotive example, which is wholly inaccurate, as more of the palastinains die in the "retaliations" to these attacks, when the poeple responsible are not respresentitive of the palastinains...

"Israel has every right to use force. They're defending their country!!!"
I'm sorry Christoph, but you clearly dont think much of anyone's IQ here... How on God's earth is bombing with helicopter gunships, f-16s, and tanks shell, whith out descriminating civilain areas, self defence?

"they cant blame us in being stronger"
??????? EH? During the holocuast the Germans were stronger, and they commited some real atrocities, are we meant to say "yeah, well... The jews cant blame them, it's not the Nazi's fault they're stronger"... This argument is absoloutly rediculous, Might doesn't mean your right...

"conquering" is pretty much the International equivilant of armed robbery, it's nothing to be proud of, and it's not right...

[Zeppelin]

israel was founded in 1948. the arabs didnt have a choice?
hmmm yeah right syria iraq egyt and jordan realy didnt have a choice but to fight israel did they?

the british DIDNT support the jews from the beginning of the 20's as result of the arabian violence they wrote the "white books" which stoped the jewish immigration into palestine.

ed you dont know what are you talking about man, all the muslims try to prove to the world that israel controles the palestinian lands because we are some kind of nazis and we want the palestinians dead.
thats a bull**** man, when those lands were conquered in the 60's they were conquered as part of egypt and jordan, not as palestine or something like that, moreover when peace were signed with jordan and egypt they got back every cm of land they had before the wars, so you have to understand: israel does not cary a policy against the poor palestinian people. the plo's authorities are simply not willing to sign the peace treaty, and i frankly cant understand why
and besides we used our f-16 only once since the beggining of the intifada, so dont say things which are not true, about using helicopters: when we do use them we use them to kill the terrorist, and in most of the cases they cause damage only to the cars of those terrorists, and to the terrorists themselves, most of the palestinians that were killed during the last year are people who supported terror, we dont come to their cities and just kill them for fun, why cant you understand it????
do you know that during the last year the israeli intelligence prevented about 10,000 acts of terror????
this is one of the main reasons there are more dead palestinians then jews

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Christoph The Americas were conquered several hundred years ago by the "evil" Europeans. My understanding of the word 'conquer' is that the people who are defeated subsequently give up the rights to the land (or whatever). So I have every right to be sitting here on what used to be Apache land, because it was conquered and taken, not stolen. (It isn't like the Indians were doing anything with it anyway.)[/B]

Translation: what goes for me doesn't go for everybody else. I'm special.

If Israel has the right to force an Arab out of their home at gun point, an Apache indian has that same right to drive you from yours. And yes, though they left few signs of it, they were doing plenty with that land.

Lets look at this from a real world perspective:

Israel wants Palistinans to up and leave their homes hapily and peacefully, and not show the least resistance.

Palistinian terrorists expect that violent attacks on their enemy will somehow break them, or drive them away.

Both veiw points are rediculous. Both sides have had ample chance to end the violence, but have passed every time. Both force the other side to harden their stance and become more and more extreamist. Sadly, hardliners lead both sides so there will be no compromise any time soon. Such is the nature of humanity. I hold both sides at fault.

Zep: The Brittish pulled out and handed the issue over the the UN after one of their officials was assassinated by a Zionist rebel- both sides have had bloody hands for some time now. As an outsider to the conflict I have to say that the people who started this are dead and their children are dead. It doesn't matter who started this and why because most of the current participants were born into this. It's time to end it and go on living.

[Zeppelin]

it does matter who started out the whole thing, because the palestinians cant blame us for kicking them out of their houses in 1948, when they were the ones to start the war. this IS the problem, they could have their very own country (if we assume jordan is not one, even though it is) for 53 years now, instead they've choosen to fight us, and now you want us to disconect from the past, and to look whats going on now. this is simply unfair, you cant expect israel to forget 50 years of war and terror, which we didnt want, and look into the happy future. You must understand: palestinians suffer because thats the way their fathers and grandfathers've choosen, not because israel want to depress them. they teach their kids that one day mad israeli setlers rushed into this "rich and prospering land of palestine", killed thousands of palestines and kicked them out of their homeland, when in fact before jewish settelers arrrived down here, the whole country was a one big swamp, and the palestinians almost ate their own ****, coze there were nothing else here. do you think israel is realy interested in controling another 1.5 milion muslims when its clear it will kill the whole idea of the jewish state?? of course not, even people like sharon now know palestinian state is the only way to live here in peace,
but as long as the plo doesnt do anything to stop the violence, as long as i care they all can go on with eating their own ****. they leaders choosen the way of intifada, they dont know any other way exept violence, and believe me
though i'd realy prefer to go to college in the next year instead of going to the army, and watching my friends dying in gaza and other places, the palestinians dont leave us any choice.
you can blame israel in many things, but the truth is one, and as long as i know we are right, i dont realy care what all the people think.

[Raskolnikov]

Put yourself into their shoes:

Every new settlement dislocates more Palistinians. All of the settlements currently under construction are on the sites of former Palistinian homes. Do you honestly expect them to not care, to just accept it as their fate?

I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't.

Also Sharone and other hardliners in your governemt are turning their backs on the peace process and moving to a more hawkish stance as Arrafat is taking his most agressive steps to crack down on militants ever. Palistinians are screaming for UN observers, the Israeli government is doing everything it can to fight them. What does this say? Finally, many Israelis on border cities simply want a big wall put up, yet official Israeli policy is against this. Well, why? Because a wall would denote an end to Israel, ie: An official recognition of "There Side" and "Our Side," thus ending Israel's expansion. If Sharone wants a Palistinian state, he doesn't want it until yet more settlements are in place.

And yes, I know, there are people on their side who will do anything to stop a peace deal from being made. There are people on your side too who think the same way. Both are leading popular sentiments, so guess what?

No peace.

Also keep in mind that my government has an obligation to protect your country: If things get bad enough, I too could well be bleeding on the west bank.

[Lordathestrings]

I have one point of disagreement with you. The UN is not the unbiased entity it proclaims itself to be!

Given that the recent sham conference against racism turned into an Israel-bashing session indulged in by racist regimes, I can well understand the Palestinian's enthusism for UN intervention. And Isreal's reluctance.

I have also come to realize that Yasser Arafat is still as much of a terrorist as he ever was. He plays the role of a 'media darling' for the Western press, and engages in the occaisional charade of 'peace talks', but he does nothing to restrain the groups he purports to control. The man is not interested in a negotiated peace. He is as much a terrorist as the members of Hamas or the PFLP.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I have one point of disagreement with you. The UN is not the unbiased entity it proclaims itself to be!

I didn't say it was, however one side of a conflict begging for neutral observers and another resisting them usually indicates something is up. I've also made sure to point out that I think both sides are allowing extreamists to lead thereby vacuming up any "middle ground" and making compromise impossible. I think what separates today's Araffat from yesterday's is that he now knows the score. He knows his power is waning, he knows that every suicide bomber and attack upon innocent Israelis looses him valuble US support and ultemately detracts from what he's trying to accomplish. His time is running out, he knows it, and he's doing everything he can to make the most of it.

[Zeppelin]

Rask: you are right in few things but we dont want the un here, because it is a proved anti israeli organization, besides we have a bad experience with the un around, when in the last year 3 soildgers were kidnaped on the lebanon border, and the un denieded for almost a year they have a video tape of this kidnaping. We dont like un here, and besides they will only see the israeli tanks and not the terrorists who are acting almost invisibly.
My final point is: the palestinian stupidity with other muslims nations support brought us to this intifada, so they cant blame us for having no country, besides maybe sharon doesnt have any plan for palestinian state, but barak did have one, which was turned down by palestinians to start their intifada, so its not sharon fault there is no peace proccess now

[Raskolnikov]

As I recall, this current intifada started after Sharon (who they perceive as a war criminal) visited some muslim holy sites and after two or three palistinians who worked at a bakery in Israel were beaten and photographed by border guards on their way home from work.

I'm not going to say that the intifada isn't wrong because it is wrong, but your tactics are just as inflamitory as theirs. Anyone who's seen a bar room brawl break out knows what I'm talking about- things start small and get blown way out of proportion as emotions flare. A spilled drink, smartass comment, or pass on somebody's girl friend turns into several bruised and bloody people, broken furniture, and an enormous mess. Is it right? No. Could steps have been taken by both sides to stop it? Yes.

Of course the situation we talk about here is far more complicated with different factions and groups representing both sides and persuing different objectives. Sadly, unless something changes, things will keep on as as they are until they explode. Current tactics just won't bring a solution.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
If Israel has the right to force an Arab out of their home at gun point, an Apache indian has that same right to drive you from yours. And yes, though they left few signs of it, they were doing plenty with that land.


Hmmm . . . I think you're failing to see the comparision. Conquerors get what they conquered. That's the whole point of conquering something. Duh!

[educatedfilm]

So how come the conquered can't conquer back?

[Christoph]

If they had anything left, they could. But since they don't, they can't!

Besides, I think the Indians have gotten back at us enough with their casinos and their reservations. (Boy, was that ever a mistake . . .)

And the Palestinians, well, they've been a pain in Israel's side for the last four thousand years, ever since the birth of Ishmael. But that's a whole other story . . .

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
As I recall, this current intifada started after Sharon (who they perceive as a war criminal) visited some muslim holy sites


That's what they've been claiming for the last year since the beginning of the intifada, but the usa and our intelligence proved long time ago that the intifada was planed long time before this visit of sharon, they were just looking for a good reason to start it

[educatedfilm]

Originally posted by Christoph
If they had anything left, they could. But since they don't, they can't!
And the Palestinians, well, they've been a pain in Israel's side for the last four thousand years, ever since the birth of Ishmael. But that's a whole other story . . .

The Isreali's and the Palastinains should practically be brothers, not one trying to constantly get the better of the other... as they both came from abraham, and the whole problem didn't start with the birth of Ishmail, it's alot more recent than that....

[Edited by educatedfilm on 11-14-2001 at 03:50 PM]

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Christoph
Originally posted by Raskolnikov
If Israel has the right to force an Arab out of their home at gun point, an Apache indian has that same right to drive you from yours. And yes, though they left few signs of it, they were doing plenty with that land.


Hmmm . . . I think you're failing to see the comparision. Conquerors get what they conquered. That's the whole point of conquering something. Duh!



I think you're trying to make excuses for hypocrocy.

"Thou shalt not steal."

Doesn't leave much wiggle room does it?

Zep: I think the Intifada had been coming to a boil long before Sharone visited those sites and those Palistinians were beaten by boarder guards. I have yet to see any evidence of planning though. Something tells me an armchair strategist such as myself who generally looses games of chess could have planned something more successful than the intifada.

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raskolnikov


Zep: I think the Intifada had been coming to a boil long before Sharone visited those sites and those Palistinians were beaten by boarder guards. I have yet to see any evidence of planning though. Something tells me an armchair strategist such as myself who generally looses games of chess could have planned something more successful than the intifada.

thats because the palestinians are stupid, im not saying it because im racist or something like that, they just stupid
they could have their very own state which was supposed to be 3 times bigger than israel was supposed to be, but they refused so 63 years later they will be able to fight for a much smaller piece of land...
besides they already had one itifada in 89 and it was quite successful,because the usa started to support them

[pantera]

i really cant believe that most ppl in here are so full of hatred....all u guyz think is we r right and the other party is not..thats very sad.WAR is a very horrible thing and the nations who r at war are all filled with emotions...and its very wrong to think that israel or palastinians are to blame...
firstly ...all the israil ppl will support there own ppl and same for the palastinians..
secondly..the actual truth about a lot of wars are never exposed...and majority of the time both sides are to blame...its wrong to think that one side is just thick or plain evil..cause most ppl in stable situations will be very reasonable and controlled..
nations at war will keep on fighting ,cause they r both highly emotional about everything..peaceful solutions have to be put forward.i know that the palestinians did not agree to a recent treaty but obviously they thought that it wasnt in thier interests..if the israel ppl are so good and palestinians are to blame for it all ,then they would have put a treaty that actually interests the palstinians.
the main point is that, both the parties are to blame cause they r stupid enough to carry on this bloody war when all there loved ones are dyin.

another point i wanted to make is that islam is a great religion, it preaches peace ..the palatinians go for suicide bombing because they dont have many altenatives...i am not saying its right ,but the fact is they r high on emotions and they dont have anything to lose..they dont really have much of an army or anything so the civilians do what they can to protect + help their ppl ..one way of lookin at the whole war situation is that both side are so hyped up on thier beliefs ,that they forgotten basic human values..its very sad if u blame one side and say that they r just evil cause they r actually in affect doin the same things...maybe in different ways but never the less both sides are killin each other..any body who has grown up might realise that human life is meant be respected.

another thing about the events of 11th september
is that the evidence against bin laden put forward,was mainly based on wat he had apparently done before,,if we look at that than AMERICA can also be the guilty party...according to past events ,,america has bombed more thatn 20 countriies since 1949....so we could just say that americans are just ppl who like showin thier power to other countries by bombing them..which is not right..so everything cannot be judged on past record and if it can then it should really apply to everyone..

another thing is that,,president bush said during a press conference that that 'he is concerned with results only'. well if his actions result in killing more innocent ppl than he is no different from bin laden..his actions are just as extreme..
the point is that a lot of ppl are pretty extreme in thier ideas and it would be unjust to only call the muslims extremists..

another fact is that the media controls ppls minds...and the ideas of a country can easily be changed to what the leaders of the country want them to think..it will be wise to see that the kind of news u get in ure locality reflects the interests of that country and it is very foolish too believe everything u see on tv.if u go to a muslim state.. undoubtebly thay will have the news which they want ppl to believe ..all countries have news which r true but there is also news that will be displayed in such a way that it suits the countries needs ..and further more no country will blame itself...the point is a lot of it is just propaganda.

EVERYONE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT HUMAN LIFE IS SACRED WHETHER ITS CHRISTIAN, JEWS OR MUSLIMS ETC

[PonyOne]

What's actually quite sad is if you look at what a lot of Palestinians, or members of other arab nations for that matter, is that they are dead convinced that ALL this is Israel's doing.

From the Palestinian standpoint it's sort of understandable. You had people who immedeately assumed that it was somebody doing it for them and their cause, and celebrated; many Palestinians don't seem to be able to get it through them that bombing/attacking civilian targets is not going to make a nation with a powerful military dry up & blow away. As soon as logic set in and many of those Palestinians realized that the WTC was not a military target and that pretty much everyone killed was either a civilian or a lesser government agent-like beat cops, EMT's and firefighters-, the popular sentiment was that it couldn't have been a muslim, and it must have been Mossad.

Why is this understandable? To the Palestinians, the Israeli secret police are both terrorists and capable of doing anything that they want. To a group whose brethren are saints and not capable of doing anything bad, who have had the Israeli secret police "assassinating" key members of their "protest groups" (read: justly killing terrorists who seek to harm Israeli interests... such as people) for the past year and doing other such operations for quite some time now, the solution is clear.

It's like if Bush had secret agents hijack a plane and ram it into Big Ben; even if the rest of the media around the world was hopping mad at the US, people within the US would be told we had nothing to do with it and we'd be genuinely shocked if any nation was dim enough to attack us back.

The majority of Palestinians do not have access to legitmate and/or non-partisan news organizations, only to what is told to them by groups like Hamas and yes, the Taliban. They have access to Israeli broadcasts as well but think about it, who are you going to trust: the people who've been beating you up for the past 55 years or someone from your nation/religion/side who says all the things you want to hear? And I'd suspect that the Israeli radio isn't exactly non-partisan itself.

My stance on the Israel-Palestine issue is that yes, I think that Palestine needs to have a major military breathing down its neck to control terrorist groups like Hamas, Fatah, PLF, etc, and there needs to be some sort of panel like the one that we're supposed to be setting up in Afghanistan after all this. Though nations have the right to self determination, the Palestinians haven't been able to ORGANIZE long enough to make anything other than an iconic flag that represents palestinian unity in the way that the African-American flag is supposed to unite all black people in the US: it takes people who may not have ANYTHING in common other than their nationality and tries to make them a solid, proud, able group. The main reason the Palestinians haven't been able to set up a viable government with a good leader? Nobody can agree long enough on one issue to make it stick. And when they start disagreeing, you see that it is not so much Palestinians as it is a series of separate groups, when they start blasting the hell out of EACHOTHER.

The people who make up the bulk of the Palestinian populace are just people who don't want Israeli helicopters buzzing their homes at night or having gunfighting going on a block away. They don't have plans to go and bomb anyone and even if at one point they thought that it was their time to strike back at Israel, many no longer do because look what's happened with this last little uprising: a lot of dead Palestinians, and the international community not championing them so much. Many have returned to Islam as it is taught in the Koran rather than the extremist viewpoints which promised them so much, but have left them with so little.

There has to be a better education system within Palestine, as well as better infomation in the news. Most Palestinians didn't know anythng about the WTC, many thought it was a government or military building, not a big office building with thousands of people in it. I recall a radio broadcast in which a British jounalist was talking to a Palestinian who was saying that the WTC attacks were directed by Allah, and that whoever dd it was just and must have done it for the Palestinian people. When the journalist showed hm a photo of the WTC, he was shocked as he'd never seen a building that huge before, and when told that there could have been as many as 50,000 people working there that day (this was the day the attack happened) and that they were all offices and shopping centres, he looked shocked and immedeately changed his tone to "this could not have been done by muslims, this is terrible, this is evil, it must have been mossad!" and went to go tell his friends how massive the scope of destruction was.

[Raskolnikov]

Pony: You and I are almost totally in agreement.

Zep: The people fighting today weren't alive 65 years ago, what choice did they have? None. Arafat himself was a child or teenager at the time, he had no choice either. I suspect that they turned down the idea of a Palestinian state at the time because they considered the whole of what is now Israel and The West Bank/Gaza Strip to be Palestine and their state. It seems the Brittish promised a lot and delivered little to both sides. Colonialism strikes again.

I think today's intifada happened because people are enraged and it's easy for HAMAS and other extreamist groups to stir people up. Many fragment orgainizations doing their dirty work, Arafat and the PLO trying to keep things under control (yes, I know, sometimes doing almost nothing), and the bulk of the Palestinian people covering their heads and praying for better days. That you simply lump them all into one group and slap the label of "them" on the whole lot is a bad sign.

[educatedfilm]

Can I just quickly drop in a second and throw in an arab point of veiw... I Pretty much agree with pony and rask and pantera here, but I think if you look into the subject of the PLO a little more, you'll see that they are a weak group, not lazy or bone idle, they dont have control of all of the groups, and are getting teh blame for anything and everything... I think that there needs to be someone else in, cos Arafat quite simply hasn't got the Leverage (on paper or militarily) against these poeple...

Pony: why have you put assasination between speech marks? It IS assasination, whether the person deserves it or not is a wholly different matter... It's also against international law...

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Can I just quickly drop in a second and throw in an arab point of veiw... I Pretty much agree with pony and rask and pantera here, but I think if you look into the subject of the PLO a little more, you'll see that they are a weak group, not lazy or bone idle, they dont have control of all of the groups, and are getting teh blame for anything and everything... I think that there needs to be someone else in, cos Arafat quite simply hasn't got the Leverage (on paper or militarily) against these poeple...


thats is soooo right, but unfortunatley he wont let israel to do the dirty job, and now we have to deal with a weak president, and even if he will sing peace treaty the hamas and all the other terrorists wont take part in this treaty
that is why i think we shall not sign peace treaty as long as araft is the president and as long as he cant control his own people
israel's official position is quite alike, we dont negotiate with araft almost on nothing
when our troops left the palestinian cities all the arangments were with the local comanders and not with arafat

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
"Thou shalt not steal."

That from the same book that had God ordering the slaughter of innocent people and the prophet Samuel hacking up enemy kings.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
The Isreali's and the Palastinains should practically be brothers...

Yes, they should be brothers, but unfortunately, prophecy is prophecy. The sons are cursed for the sins of the father.

[Douglas Swims]

I am an American. I was born in Missouri. (You know, the "show me" state. Well, five years in Saudi Arabia opened my eyes to a lot. I've seen Filipino men beheaded in Dammam for rape of a Saudi Woman. I've seen women beaten by the Muttawas (religious police) for eating an apple in public; (she lifted her veil slightly). I've seen "devout" Moslems get off their knees from Prayer time, get on a plane and (as soon as we were in the air) scream at the Stewardess demanding she stand by him and pour him booze.

I've had friends arrested and jailed for six months because they had been to a party and had 1-2 homemade beers. Alcohol is illegal in Saudi, but I've been to parties at wealthy Saudi's and the bar was better stocked than most saloons here. Some of the Arabic men, both Saudi and Yemeni accepted me (a Southern Boy from America), we shared experiences and dissapointments and we were friends. Many others however, glared at me in the streets and would curse me (I speak fair Arabic and I understood each curse). Their curses showed more that they hated Americans for our perceived better lives than theirs (Like we all eat lobster constantly and drive Corvettes). Most of the curses were born of religious indifference( But hey, have you ever seen a Southern Baptist evangelist shaking the congregation down while putting fear and self righteousness into them?) ,ignorance and loathing. Even so, when an overzealous,ignorant, loathing man points a gun at me, I don't try to rationalize his religion, situation or politics, I protect myself and my family.

Perhaps someday, through education and economic improvement of the common person in the Arabic world, they will stop allowing themselves to be controlled by popular religious or political lunatics. Til then, there will be no peace.

[PonyOne]

When I was working at an art supply store, there was one day when a group of very wealthy Saudis came in and bought nearly $10,000 worth of the finest paints, canvas, and brushes we had, and the entire time, waltzed around like they were better than all of us. They had around twenty baskets worth of crap, and the Cadillac limo they'd chartered was already packed with other crap from various boutiques around Boston... so guess who got to follow them in his 1991 Saab loaded with art supplies that totalled just less than his yearly income...
After like six trips between my car and the presidential suite at the top of the Ritz-Carlton (of course they weren't helping, and the limo driver had already endured enough ****), I had the head of the clan refer to me as an infidel, fool, idiot, mule, etc. He screamed bloody hell at his daughter, who was around my age, for smiling at me. In the elevator on the way up he was deplooring the American way of life; he insisted on following me to make sure that I didn't steal anything.
At the end of it, after he mad eit clear I would get no tip, I told him that he was a dick, and i didn't give a rat's ass how wealthy he was, that i was smarter, cooler, more talented and, most of all a more Godly person than he, so he should lay off.
Before I left that daughter of his ran down, gave me a check for $500 and apologized for her father's extreme rudeness and begged forgiveness. I just thanked her, and said that it was okay, that i understood social conditioning and that i knew that not all Arabs were mean.
Not really much relevance to anything, but a story nonetheless.

[educatedfilm]

hmmmm....I'm an arab Doug, and I'm Lybian bron and some of what you've described is very new to me... About rich poeple getting away with having a drink, well there's a word for that, It's corruption... You pay Mr Police man money to turn a blind eye, and it's not just tied to the arab world...
Women dont have to cover their faces, even Iran doesn't quite go that far... I dont know where you got this idea from... You just have to look at the way women dress when they go on Pilgramige into mecca...
Where did you go? I mean there a couple of rural town where you find the cross-eyed flea-bitten bearded "sheik", who does as you describe but it's very rare in the major cities... Some poele get upset with forigners as they some how think they've come to take thier jobs and their women, a sentiment you can find in the pig-headed morons overhere in the UK...
Pony: yep... Trust me it's not because you'r not muslim that he's having a dig at you, if you were an arab he'd probably've called you "failure, son of a failure", It's nothing to do with being muslim, It's about being a spoilt son-of-a...... and thinking that being rich makes you a better person... You should go to Egypt and see how the "Beha" treat the poorer poeple, and the same goes from Columbia....

[Zac]

I respect your opinion. I also believe that hatred is learned, and that the only thing that can put an end to hatred is LOVE.Therefor, I do not think that hatred is so much a "Muslim thing" as it is a condition of the heart that is the result of either somone's teaching, or as the result of a turn of events in a person's life in which they are either deprived, neglected, or otherwise mistreated in a very harmful way...
One thing I know for sure (one of the very few things I should say...) is that I can't change my past, but I sure can try and change my future for the better!
I hope all you guys have a GREAT THANKSGIVING!
Zac