Guitar Tricks - Merry christmas

looneytunes

12-25-2007, 07:14 PM

Don't forget us Atheists.
Groovy Free Stuff Day Everybody!!!

So, you are atheist? You don't celebrate CHRISTmas, Easter, Thanksgiving or any religious holidays. You insist on working those days and refuse any holiday pay or gifts? You don't believe in the power of prayer? Doing anything less would be hypocritical. If someone should wish you a Merry CHRISTmas, you calmly explain you are an atheist, but have a good day? You don't believe in right or wrong or good and evil? Right and wrong is however the state or the you feel is right or wrong? Do you believe you can act and do anything you want as long as it doesn't hurt someone? Do you choose what laws (or commandments) you can break as long as you don't get caught?

I'm not saying you don't have the right to believe as you want. I'm just trying to understand what you do believe.

Have a nice day! :)

Kevin Taylor

12-25-2007, 07:50 PM

andrewjreid

12-25-2007, 08:24 PM

well this is the last time i say merry christmas on a forum

Kevin Taylor

12-25-2007, 08:33 PM

Happy Festivus!!!! :)

andrewjreid

12-25-2007, 08:51 PM

Happy Festivus!!!! :)
uhhh sure i can go with that break out the pole

looneytunes

12-26-2007, 09:07 AM

It was just a joke dude.

Actually I don't believe, or not believe in anything.
Nobody can prove one way or another whether god really exists so I stay neutral on the subject.

However I do find it offensive having religion shoved down my throat on a daily basis whether I like it or not.
And I do find it kinda strange that if I choose to express my own beliefs, I end up getting castigated for it... sorta like you just did.

Seems funny how religion is supposed to be so amazing, yet the minute anybody expresses any doubt about the existence of god, They're immediately subjected to a sarcastic and abusive witch hunt by those very same religious people.

Because you are so quick to anger and feel religion is "being shoved down your throat on a daily basis" leads one to believe the Holy Spirit is working in your life. You never did answer my question about right and wrong, good and evil. I don't think you are a true atheist. I think you just don't know what to beleive. Just my thoughts.

Actually, I understand how you feel because I have expereienced the same thing. Occasionly, whenever I express my beliefs (which I believe in the US anyone has the right to do anywhere and at anytime, that doesn't mean he doesn't have to face critizism), I am looked upon as being weird or stupid. Stupid for believing in something that can't be seen or touched or prooven it even exists! Some people think it's alright to express their disbelief it God, but never, never should a Christian express thier belief in God.

However, I wasn't trying to throw religion at you. You brought it up first and I was just trying to understand what you did believe. I mean do you believe that everything just happened? Take the something simple?? like the eye ball. Do you think that everything just accidental came together over millions of years to enable whatever to see? Did this creature run around for millions of years blind or did it just accidentally fall together in one big swoop. Think about it with an open mind. Everything had to just fall into place at the right time. Did we crawl out of the ocean and if so what were we before? Did the land and ocean just happen as well? Did we revolve from monkeys and if so, why are there still monkeys? If today's monkeys are laggers in revolution, are their creatures crawling out of the ocean popping out legs as we speak?

Believing in God is by faith. No proof required, just faith. I know it's hard, but it takes faith. If you need proof, look around. Life didn't just happen accidentally. The beauty of the world and the universe didn't just happen.

Kevin Taylor

12-26-2007, 09:41 AM

Well first lemme set ya straight...I might sound angry considering my typing style but most of the time I'm sitting here watching the Simpsons or something and it's unfortunate, but my directness comes across as anger. Two minutes after I've finished typing this I'll be going back to finish watching Police Squad while I'm recording so don't take anything personally.

As far as religion goes, it's such a broad subject that I hate discussing it.
There's too many points of view and too many subjects to cover that it would literally take months to type out my true feelings on the subject.

In short though, I will never believe in God unless he personally emails me and sets up a meeting to prove to me that he exists. Nobody in the entire world of 6 billion people can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God actually exists because if they could, they would have already.
They can prove they have faith. But they can't prove there is a God.

Religion to me is like a cult. You've got scam artists like 700 club and these other performance artists who like to yell a lot and say things like 'let the spirit come OUT!! In Jesus name'. They can't prove god exists anymore than anybody else so they're just spouting out what they personally believe.
Unfortunately, they have the power of the media to convince millions of people that what they say is the absolute truth. So they get away with it.

You've got the Christian church and the boy loving priests who've been using the church as their personal sex palace for the last couple of thousand years.
Most wars are over religion. Any time there's a discussion about religion, somebody will take something the wrong way and go postal on you.

I absolutely hate religion in all forms. I hate the way they sucker kids into believing in it. It drives me nuts to see people in a forum posting bible passages as if they actually mean something.
To me they're offensive because they come from a cult composed of liars, sex offenders, abusers, scam artists and murderers.

As far as my own beliefs in the existence of the universe etc..
I think if there is something intelligent behind it, it's far beyond anything that we could possibly understand. It'd be like trying to explain the world to a flea. We'll never know. We'll never know what happens after death. We'll never know if there really is a God. We'll never know if there's a heaven a hell, a devil or whatever else there is. That's just the way it is.

So when I see these 'TV Evangelists' actually daring to say that they talk to God or know anything more than anybody else on this planet it doesn't get me angry. It makes me sick to my stomach that so many technologically advanced, intelligent people can be so gullible.

ZakJenkins

12-26-2007, 11:35 AM

Geeetar4Life

12-26-2007, 11:44 AM

Who cares?

It's Christmas! On the calendar, it says Christmas! It's a big deal in the Christian faith. I'm not gonna say Happy Chanukah, 'cause it's already over, and it's a really small deal in the Jewish Faith.

And who really cares what who believes. I'm a Christian, but I'm not an idiot, I don't go around acting superior to everyone because I believe in a higher being. Christianity is all about admitting we're inferior to someone else, so if anything, the atheists should be making fun of us, not the other way around. That's why nobody likes Christians, because a majority of them are stuck up elitists. For the most part, Atheists leave theists beliefs alone, until the theists start bashing atheists. So...Theists, back off. Nobody cares. And Atheists, Happy Festivus, Most People don't care.
If most people don't care....then why do so many people get offended when someone says merry christmas? It might be different where yall live but here in GA if someone says Merry Christmas in our junior high school, they get written up for a referral which is basically a dentention or possibly a suspension. I think that's bull ****. It really pissed me off. If it were me in that situation, I would be saying merry christmas to everyone. Also, why do store managers make their co workers say happy holidays instead of merry christmas even if all the co workers are christian. the answer is so none of the none chritians get offended because a lot of them really do care. so yeah, I would have to say that christians don't really care, but for some reason there is a sensative button on a lot of other non christians.

Geeetar4Life

12-26-2007, 11:47 AM

Oh and by the way, Merry Christmas :)

ZakJenkins

12-26-2007, 11:50 AM

You too!

And getting Written up for saying Merry Christmas is silly. So is getting offended by it. Merry Christmas is no more offensive than any other Holiday Greetings. They're just saying the one they happen to celebrate.

turkeyjerky214

12-26-2007, 12:15 PM

You don't celebrate CHRISTmas, Easter, Thanksgiving or any religious holidays.

Last I checked, Thanksgiving isn't a religious holiday.

Hope everyone had a good christMAS. Personally, I got a 10 pack of electric strings and a 5 pack of acoustics (D'Addario and Martin), a book on music theory specifically for guitar, a book on rock/blues soloing, and of course my Boss GT-6 multi effects processor. I got the pedal a few weeks ago and was supposed to put it away until yesterday, but I "forgot" and have been using it since it got here.

Anyone else get anything good?

looneytunes

12-26-2007, 02:01 PM

Last I checked, Thanksgiving isn't a religious holiday.

Really? Who are you giving thanks to, the Thanksgiving turkey? Mommy and Daddy? Maybe the government? I personally I thank God, but I guess you can thank anyone you want and call it anything you want.

I maybe a little snotty. Please forgive me. I just got carried away. I would like to know who you do give thanks to on Thankgiving day, for real!

There are other religious holiday that one might not think is related, but I'm not going there.

Have a Happy New Year! I hope that didn't offend anyone.

Hey, that's a good idea. I think I will start a new thread, if it's not started yet. What did you get for CHRISTmas?

Thanks!

Geeetar4Life

12-26-2007, 04:15 PM

Really? Who are you giving thanks to, the Thanksgiving turkey? Mommy and Daddy? Maybe the government? I personally I thank God, but I guess you can thank anyone you want and call it anything you want.

I maybe a little snotty. Please forgive me. I just got carried away. I would like to know who you do give thanks to on Thankgiving day, for real!

There are other religious holiday that one might not think is related, but I'm not going there.

Have a Happy New Year! I hope that didn't offend anyone.

Hey, that's a good idea. I think I will start a new thread, if it's not started yet. What did you get for CHRISTmas?

Thanks!
Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday. I mean, you can make it a religious holiday by thanking your god and all that good stuff. But intentionally, Thanksgiving is a holiday made for celebrating the finding of our home, America..You know the pilgrim and indians story...yeah, that's what Thanksgiving is. But yeah, people do make it religious such as my family. We give thanks to God and all that good stuff.

Tonja_Renee

12-27-2007, 07:14 AM

Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday. I mean, you can make it a religious holiday by thanking your god and all that good stuff. But intentionally, Thanksgiving is a holiday made for celebrating the finding of our home, America..You know the pilgrim and indians story...yeah, that's what Thanksgiving is. But yeah, people do make it religious such as my family. We give thanks to God and all that good stuff.

I'm sorry but you are sadly misinformed... Thanksgiving to Christ came before America was found. The pilgrims just included the Indians in their celebrations, its not why they celebrated to begin with....

As with mostly everything that was created by the church, it gets altered and obscured over the years and Christ gets taken out of it. If it wasn't for Christ and the Bible, we wouldn't even have schools - schools were created to teach people to read the Bible - nothing more. And now you can't even mention God or Jesus in school. Some thanks that is.

Thats why most people don't know that Thanksgiving is about God and Jesus - because it can't be taught in school that way... Its a real shame that people are learning about history that isn't the truth.

looneytunes

12-27-2007, 07:56 AM

The holiday Thanksgiving is a national holiday for "giving thanks" or gratitude to God! If you are not thanking God, who are you thanking? Did the pilgrims thank the captain of the ship? I'm sure they did, but I don't think they gave a big feast in his honor. Maybe the ocean? Or did they just say "Thank, (whoever), we made it?" Maybe they gave thanks to themselves? I'm trying to understand!

Actually most of our national holidays, although they have ventured far from it's origin including Thanksgiving, is based on religion. And most were not declared national holidays until the 1950's. Does this mean nobody celebrated these holidays until the government declared them national holidays? Of course not! This is why I don't believe the government should proclaim a national holiday. These holidays should be kept religious and celebrated by those of that faith. I enjoy having the time off from work, etc., but religion is a personal thing and holidays should be celebrated by those of that faith and after work or those people can decide to take off from work those days without pay. Giving everyone the day off with pay (a free day as someone stated earlier), takes away the true meaning of any holiday. Those who are not of that faith should not be celebrating those holidays and they should be celebrating the holidays of their faith. And if they don't have any religious believes, then they should not be celebrating any holiday, not even "All Hallows Eve" (Halloween, the Eve of All Saints Day). Halloween is not a national holiday, but most celebrate it without even knowing what it is. I hope I clearly explained myself without ruffling too many feathers.

I appreicate everyone's responses, but nobody has answered any of my questions. I am trying to understand, but it is hard without some feedback. Anyway, I think too much time has been spent on this, so I'm moving on. Let's get back to guitar stuff.

P.S. I wished everyone I have contact with a "Merry CHRISTmas" and I know of no one being offended. Check out www.benstein.com

Thanks,

strat-man

12-27-2007, 09:21 AM

I think too much time has been spent on this, so I'm moving on. Let's get back to guitar stuff.

Your most sensible comment so far! any persons personal beliefs (be they religious or political) should remain just that....personal.... any public forum not related to either of those subjects is definately not the place to discuss them!

Have a nice day :)

hunter60

12-27-2007, 10:01 AM

Your most sensible comment so far! any persons personal beliefs (be they religious or political) should remain just that....personal.... any public forum not related to either of those subjects is definately not the place to discuss them!

Have a nice day :)

Yup. Agree.

Kevin Taylor

12-27-2007, 11:29 AM

Yup. Agree.

Nah.. where's the fun in that?

While I think that discussions about religion are kinda useless, if we kept everything 'personal' all the time, all anybody would ever talk about is the weather.
My thoughts are that this is a musicians forum, for songwriters as well as guitar players. You need life experiences and knowledge in order to write songs and express yourself through your music. And one of life's experiences is learning how others feel and comparing it to your own thoughts.
I've got my own thoughts on religion but that doesn't keep me from appreciating other's points of few and trying to figure out where their heads are at.
In the end it helps you grow as a person and ultimately (hopefully) write better songs.

damaged

12-27-2007, 11:37 AM

A bit late nevertheless merry Christmas to everyone, hope you'll are having a great holiday season.

hunter60

12-27-2007, 12:03 PM

Nah.. where's the fun in that?

While I think that discussions about religion are kinda useless, if we kept everything 'personal' all the time, all anybody would ever talk about is the weather.
My thoughts are that this is a musicians forum, for songwriters as well as guitar players. You need life experiences and knowledge in order to write songs and express yourself through your music. And one of life's experiences is learning how others feel and comparing it to your own thoughts.
I've got my own thoughts on religion but that doesn't keep me from appreciating other's points of few and trying to figure out where their heads are at.
In the end it helps you grow as a person and ultimately (hopefully) write better songs.

Good point and I am all for a spirited debate. I was just concerned that things had been getting a little heated and didn't want to see something escalate, that's all.

I applaud your open-mindedness. :)

Geeetar4Life

12-27-2007, 11:25 PM

I'm sorry but you are sadly misinformed... Thanksgiving to Christ came before America was found. The pilgrims just included the Indians in their celebrations, its not why they celebrated to begin with....

As with mostly everything that was created by the church, it gets altered and obscured over the years and Christ gets taken out of it. If it wasn't for Christ and the Bible, we wouldn't even have schools - schools were created to teach people to read the Bible - nothing more. And now you can't even mention God or Jesus in school. Some thanks that is.

Thats why most people don't know that Thanksgiving is about God and Jesus - because it can't be taught in school that way... Its a real shame that people are learning about history that isn't the truth.
Well I'm glad you set me straight :)
I'm surprised no one has ever corrected me on this before. but yeah, thank you.

earthman buck

12-28-2007, 04:43 AM

If it wasn't for Christ and the Bible, we wouldn't even have schools - schools were created to teach people to read the Bible - nothing more.
That's just plain not true.

Tonja_Renee

12-28-2007, 08:30 AM

That's just plain not true.

It is true... I'm not talking about Universities and such... but schools for children.. The church brought schooling to the poor. Only the very very wealthy could afford to have their children taught.

They began in the church... You look back to the origins of the early schooling and they were in church to teach children to read the bible. It wasn't until many years later that the governments thought it was a good idea and funded the teaching and brought the classes out of the church.

That's why Christianity was so prominent in schooling even as soon as 50 years ago.

Kevin Taylor

12-28-2007, 09:07 AM

There were schools long before christianity even existed.
The Babylonians had schooling in 2300 b.c. and taught art, architecture, mathematics, medicine, literature...

I think the human race would have got along fine without religion being involved and maybe we'd have advanced a little faster if everybody was free to think for themselves instead of being forced to adopt Christianity.

Look at the teachings of Galileo and what the church did to him.

Tonja_Renee

12-28-2007, 12:47 PM

To be honest I was talking about North America... I know there has been forms of education long before the death of Christ. However it wasn't available to everyone. The church was the organization that first brought education to everyone in North America.

I was just saying the Church has done wonderful things for the communities of North America. However I feel Christianity is the most rejected and censored religion here.... that of course is my opinion... from what I have seen.

Personally I think a world without religion would be a horrible place. No one thinking they are accountable for their actions.

I'm not saying Christianity or Christians are perfect... we are not. That is what Christianity is all about. We aren't good enough and never will be. But we will spend the rest of our lives trying to be the best that we can and be grateful to Jesus for sacrificing himself to save us. I don't expect you to understand that... God gave us free will and that's the beauty of it... if you don't want God - he will let you go.

earthman buck

12-28-2007, 01:45 PM

I feel Christianity is the most rejected and censored religion here.... that of course is my opinion... from what I have seen.
Whaaaaat? You think Christianity is the most censored religion in North America? I think the fact that the huge majority of Canadians and Americans celebrate Christmas says otherwise. What about, like, Wicca or Shinto? Compare a Sikh wearing a turban in school with a Christian wearing a golden cross in school and see who gets picked on more.

Personally I think a world without religion would be a horrible place. No one thinking they are accountable for their actions.
To some degree, religion can be a good thing. It can give people hope and the faith that things will ultimately work out. It can help people beat their addictions and vices, and like you said, it can even hold people accountable for their actions.

The problem is when people take the "accountable for their actions" bit too far and mess up the whole world for the sake of obeying an ancient (and at least partially irrelevant) text to the letter. And that's kind of where I think we are now. Still.

Tonja_Renee

12-28-2007, 02:21 PM

Yes I think that Christianity is censored more.... I seriously doubt if somone wearing a turban would be picked on by teachers and government officials.. in fact I think the authorities would bend over backward to accomodate his religion and respect their praying times during the day or whatever they needed to do in respect of their religion...

However if a Christian wanted to take time in school or work to pray - do you think it would be allowed... of course not. As somone said before they'll get a detention for wishing someone Merry Christmas.

So yeah... I think everyone would bend to accomodate other religions before Christianity.

I do agree that there are Christians out there who judge - and I don't know why that is and nor do I agree with that. Anyone who commits sins well in my opinion that is between them and God (and everyone sins, even Christians - any Christian out there that says they don't sin is committing one as they say that) it is not my place nor anyone's to judge other people.

I don't know the Bible inside and out... but I do read it very frequently and try to learn more everyday. In the New Testament Jesus said the most important commandment to follow is to Love thy Neighbor as you love yourself... and I think there are many Christians that lose sight of the love they are supposed to share. It becomes about right and wrong - and justice...

Unfortunately... people hold Christians to a higher level than anyone else - so when a Christian messes up or loses their way... it puts a dark mark on Christianity. In the end... its just about You and God and how one chooses to nurture that relationship.

Edit** I misquoted the New Testament by stating Jesus said the most important comandment was love thy neighbor... that's not true the most important comandment was Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind.. the second most important was love thy neighbor (Matthew 22 : 36)

looneytunes

12-28-2007, 02:31 PM

Whaaaaat? You think Christianity is the most censored religion in North America? I think the fact that the huge majority of Canadians and Americans celebrate Christmas says otherwise. What about, like, Wicca or Shinto? Compare a Sikh wearing a turban in school with a Christian wearing a golden cross in school and see who gets picked on more.

To some degree, religion can be a good thing. It can give people hope and the faith that things will ultimately work out. It can help people beat their addictions and vices, and like you said, it can even hold people accountable for their actions.

The problem is when people take the "accountable for their actions" bit too far and mess up the whole world for the sake of obeying an ancient (and at least partially irrelevant) text to the letter. And that's kind of where I think we are now. Still.

I agree with Tonja. Christianty is the most censored religion in the US. You quote things happening in the (public) schools that just aren't true. A Christian cannot wear a cross on the outside of their shirt, but you can wear a shulk and cross bones T-shirt. You will find books in the library on witchcraft and santic rituals, but you will not find the Bible (I'm sure this is not the case in all public schools).

Back to my original question. What is right and what is wrong? Is what society says (the majority or mob, an average, a compromise), the government (who thinks were are too stupid to knkow what is best for us), how each dividual (which includes murders, rapists, theives, ect.), maybe the media or Hollywood (Anything goes), the schools (who so such a great job educating our children), your mother and father (Who still think of you as there little baby), etc. determine what is right and wrong? If someone personally believes it is OK to murder someone for looking at them crossed eyed, is he right. If the government says you cannot have more than one child per couple under threat of going to prison, are they right? Right and wrong is found in the Bible, God's word, and when people (who God has given free will) errors, does not make the Bible or religion false, outdated, etc.

I personally believe when someone states they are an athesist, they just don't want anyone pointing the finger and stating that what they are doing is wrong. Yet most of the time they really know they are doing wrong and that is why they are so quick to anger.

Just my opinion!

ren

12-28-2007, 02:45 PM

Merry Christmas
Happy Channukah
Eid Mubarak

Seasons greetings, whatever you are... and a happy new year... ;)

earthman buck

12-28-2007, 04:56 PM

I agree with Tonja. Christianty is the most censored religion in the US. You quote things happening in the (public) schools that just aren't true. A Christian cannot wear a cross on the outside of their shirt, but you can wear a shulk and cross bones T-shirt. You will find books in the library on witchcraft and santic rituals, but you will not find the Bible (I'm sure this is not the case in all public schools).
You're right, it's not. I don't recall ever seeing any Satanic books in my school library, and I've looked, because that stuff interests me. There may have been one or two about occultism, but nothing pertaining to Satanism the way the Bible pertains to Christianity.There was a Bible prominently displayed in my English classroom every year of high school, and I went to a public school. It never came out in class, but we were welcome to read it if we had some free time, just like we were with any other book.

As for the cross thing, I've never heard anyone asked to "tuck it in." We were asked to turn our shirts inside out if they were deemed inappropriate (generally depicting alcohol), but crosses were just fine.

...and I just plain don't know what a shulk is.

If the government says you cannot have more than one child per couple under threat of going to prison, are they right? Right and wrong is found in the Bible, God's word, and when people (who God has given free will) errors, does not make the Bible or religion false, outdated, etc.
Keep in mind you're saying that from a tremendously Christian point of view. There are tons of passages in the Bible that I think even most believers would agree are hilariously outdated and have nothing to do with right or wrong. An example: If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.
Is it right, then, that this is the case? How about the passage that says that if a woman bears a male child, she is "unclean" for seven days, but bearing a female child makes her "unclean" for two weeks (Leviticus 12:2-5)? Is that right?

I personally believe when someone states they are an athesist, they just don't want anyone pointing the finger and stating that what they are doing is wrong. Yet most of the time they really know they are doing wrong and that is why they are so quick to anger.
I state I am an atheist because I don't believe in God. I find most of what Jesus taught to be good advice, and yes, for the most part I even follow it. But I see no proof of a Perfect Entity ruling the universe, and even less proof that the Bible is what is right. And so I must declare myself an atheist. You don't need to be religious to have morals, you know.

And what's all this about being "quick to anger?" Are you saying all atheists are intrinsically "quick to anger?" How so?

Kevin Taylor

12-28-2007, 05:37 PM

I state I am an atheist because I don't believe in God. I find most of what Jesus taught to be good advice, and yes, for the most part I even follow it. But I see no proof of a Perfect Entity ruling the universe, and even less proof that the Bible is what is right. And so I must declare myself an atheist. You don't need to be religious to have morals, you know.

And what's all this about being "quick to anger?" Are you saying all atheists are intrinsically "quick to anger?" How so?

Well said. Same here. I have to state I'm an Atheist because I usually have to pick a choice from a category. In reality, I guess I'm a Nothingist. I don't believe, or not believe in anything. I wish human intellect and the search for knowledge and understanding could prevail without any beliefs or 'faith' mixed in there to mess things up.
I too think there have been good things that have come from religion. However, I find it sad that humanity has to rely on such a crutch instead of just using their brains to figure things out for themselves.

I guess that's one of things about religion that bothers me the most. It's an organization that preys on people who can't think for themselves.
I kinda shake my head in disbelief when people talk about God as if he's real, yet if I was to talk about 'Malvor the Magnificent' from Alpha-Centuri who speaks to Earthlings on Sea Beams from the Shores of Orion. Then set up an organization that makes money from people organizing in my "Space Palaces" or 'churches' as you call them, I'd be labeled a fraud and a fruitcake.

looneytunes

12-28-2007, 07:43 PM

So, how do you do determine what is right and wrong?

Tonja_Renee

12-28-2007, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by King James Bible, Deuteronomy 25:5-10
If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

Ok this is from the Old Testament... The Old Testament is followed by the Jews... it prophecises the coming of Christ, and these laws are followed by the Jews... Christianity is the New Testament which is a new covenant with God because the Jews rejected Jesus (the Messiah). Christians do not follow those old laws... the Old Testament is included with the New Testament as a testimony that the two volumes are tied together. So by picking apart the Old Testament you really are picking apart Judaism not Christianity.

The Bible is an amazing document... its 66 books written by over 40 different authors, who most of them did not know one another - over a span of 1500 years... yet tells the complete history of God, the Jews, the rejection, and then savior of all mankind.

C.S. Lewis wrote a book on Christianity "Mere Christianity"... as he was an Athiest - set out to prove there was no God and because of his research and what he learned became a very devought Christian... He said that for people to say that Jesus was not the son of God, but was a morally just person is absurd... He said for someone to claim the things that Jesus did and not to be the truth would have to make him a raving lunatic... you either have to beleive in him as a whole or that he was insane. It was also in that book that C.S. Lewis talked about our ingrained ability to sense right from wrong and wanted to know how the average person from childhood regardless of upbringing had that sense...

Kevin Taylor

12-28-2007, 09:54 PM

So, how do you do determine what is right and wrong?

Follow the law and what society has come to expect.

Tonja_Renee

12-28-2007, 11:05 PM

Follow the law and what society has come to expect.

That still wouldn't give us the sense of remorse... And then it becomes the whole chicken and the egg thing... did we have a sense of right and wrong before laws and if not... who decided the laws should be made if we didn't know the difference?

Kevin Taylor

12-28-2007, 11:16 PM

That still wouldn't give us the sense of remorse... And then it becomes the whole chicken and the egg thing... did we have a sense of right and wrong before laws and if not... who decided the laws should be made if we didn't know the difference?

Laws come about because of what works best for society as a whole.
Just because we don't believe that there's a magical space alien guy called God, doesn't mean we'd be too dumb to figure out right from wrong.

elklandercc

12-29-2007, 12:29 AM

I only read half of the thread, but here s my thought on the subject:

Like a lot of people, I go back and fourth wit beleiving and not beleving, and right now I'm a beleiver. I don't go to church (forced when I was little, no plans to ever go again,) I don't go to any gatherings or get involved. The only thing I do is beleive that there is a higher power and I guess occasionally ask for a little help (as in dear god help me get this truck out before cops come.) I don't follow the commandments nor any of the deadly sins or whatever you call them. I just do what I find morally right, the morals that I learned from my parents and from personal experience over the years. Pretty much, I sleep good at night because I follow my own rules. Sure I curse a lot and do stupid ****, but everyone sees me as a great person and I always like keeping everyone happy when they're around me.

Religion is powerful, but it works in both directions, good and bad(make friends, start wars.)

If someone says Merry Chirstmass and you don't celebrate it and become offended, get a life, or better yet, end it. People like are not wanted in the world and are the reason why theres constant conflicts going on, big and small.

earthman buck

12-29-2007, 02:01 AM

Ok this is from the Old Testament... The Old Testament is followed by the Jews... it prophecises the coming of Christ, and these laws are followed by the Jews... Christianity is the New Testament which is a new covenant with God because the Jews rejected Jesus (the Messiah). Christians do not follow those old laws... the Old Testament is included with the New Testament as a testimony that the two volumes are tied together. So by picking apart the Old Testament you really are picking apart Judaism not Christianity.
First of all, I doubt very highly ANY branch of Judaism follows the law I quoted. But since I don't know, I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

But don't make the mistake of thinking there isn't wacky stuff in the New Testament.

Now in the morning as he returned into the city, [Jesus] hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
So...Jesus was hungry, and a tree he came across wouldn't feed him, so he killed it.

Hmm.

So, how do you do determine what is right and wrong?
Basically, out of respect for one another. Don't do anything that is going to hurt anyone, whether emotionally or physically. That's really what Jesus is saying, I think, once you get down to it. BE NICE.

I hope I don't sound like a total prick, I'm not trying to. I really don't care what others believe in; I know that for the most part, followers of ANY religion are very sensible people. It's the few wackjobs that take things WAAAAY to literally that put a sour taste for religion in my mouth. Like gay marriage, for example. You have these Christian right-wingers claiming homosexuality is a sin because it's mentioned in passing in the Bible (in the Old Testament, might I add). As a result, they outlaw same-sex couples getting married...despite the fact that "Love thy neighbour" and "Do unto others" and other such (SENSIBLE) messages are hit home CONSTANTLY throughout the course of the Bible. It's outrageous. Ask any Christian preacher how literally the Bible is to be taken...I think most would agree it's just a series of metaphors describing ways we can all get along.

If someone says Merry Chirstmass and you don't celebrate it and become offended, get a life, or better yet, end it. People like are not wanted in the world and are the reason why theres constant conflicts going on, big and small.
Yes and yes. Isn't that how this whole debate started? :P I don't understand why non-Christians get offended when Christians wish them a Merry Christmas. If a Jew wished me a Happy Hannukah, I would accept it. The focus is on the HAPPY, for frick's sake. They are wishing you well! Chill the f*** out.

Have a good evening, everyone. I am exhausted.

andrewjreid

12-29-2007, 02:53 AM

this is a strange conversation that branched off of an innocent saying of merry christmas

Tonja_Renee

12-29-2007, 08:37 AM

I don't get the whole homosexuality thing either, and I've been exhausted completely trying to find more information on the matter.... Sin is sin in the bible there aren't any levels of sin in the Bible that makes one sin more acceptable to God than another - well nothing that I have found yet so far...

So whether its murder, homosexuality, or walking by someone who needs help and choose not to help them - its a sin. I don't get the high and mighty attitude of some Christians. The bible states that we go to heaven for beleiving in Jesus and accepting him into our heart... not by the good works that we do. Although we tend to want to more good things once we have accepted Jesus... and when we sin, we ask for forgiveness and move on.

As for the passages... just quoting one passage of scripture without reading the whole chapter is not a good idea. The bible is written in many parables, and pictures etc... It talks a lot about the bearing of fruit - which really has nothing to do with actual fruit... mostly its about the nourishment of God. And the bible says that if we don't get nourishment from God (spiritually) we won't bear fruit (I think this means goodness and kindess to others) and wither and become empty. I haven't read that whole chapter so I reserve the right to retract my interpretation, but I've seen those comparisons before in the Bible. You of all people Brendon I thought would be able to read into the metaphors..

I personally don't understand how someone could not beleive in God. Look at nature on this planet. Scientists have said this planet is a planet by design... Everything is balanced perfectly and the only thing screwing it up is Man. Man is the only species on this planet that can create with our hands, and yet our sinful nature is making us all greedy to the point of killing the planet. We want to be Gods... but we are not and can't be.

And there have been times in my life I thought I would be homeless or worse and yet something miraculous happens and the money showed up or something happened to prevent me from perishing... If there wasn't someone looking out for me up there - I would surely be dead by now.

Kevin Taylor

12-29-2007, 08:46 AM

I personally don't understand how someone could not beleive in God. Look at nature on this planet. Scientists have said this planet is a planet by design... Everything is balanced perfectly and the only thing screwing it up is Man. Man is the only species on this planet that can create with our hands, and yet our sinful nature is making us all greedy to the point of killing the planet. We want to be Gods... but we are not and can't be.

And there have been times in my life I thought I would be homeless or worse and yet something miraculous happens and the money showed up or something happened to prevent me from perishing... If there wasn't someone looking out for me up there - I would surely be dead by now.

Guess it's a good thing God likes you and not all the other homeless people out there. I see He just killed a few more families on Christmas day.
Jeez... how perfectly balanced.

Tonja_Renee

12-29-2007, 08:53 AM

Guess it's a good thing God likes you and not all the other homeless people out there. I see He just killed a few more families on Christmas day.
Jeez... how perfectly balanced.

I don't think God kills people... we do. I think its because of our actions that people die. I do think God helps those who ask for it. Look at our population... we are greedy, selfish - and if God gave us everything - we would only get worse. Spoiled little children who are all very ungreatful for what he has given us.

Kevin Taylor

12-29-2007, 09:26 AM

I don't think God kills people... we do. I think its because of our actions that people die. I do think God helps those who ask for it. Look at our population... we are greedy, selfish - and if God gave us everything - we would only get worse. Spoiled little children who are all very ungreatful for what he has given us.

Well...you just said you thought somebody up there must be looking out for you or you'd be dead.
So how come he looks out for you and not the president of Pakistan?
I guess I can't see how you don't get that it's all just circumstance and not some sky bully up there deciding who's fortunate today and who dies.

Tonja_Renee

12-29-2007, 09:48 AM

Oh.. I don't think he's just looking out for me... And I don't think he always steps in and helps either.

If someone pointed a gun at me and pulled the trigger - I'm pretty sure I would die too.

I think God helps everyone out subtely when he can - when someone asks of it and its part of his "plan" for us. We as humans have really messed things up here on earth... and I think God just lets us deal with our own consequences - he doesn't create bad things to happen to people.

See life on this planet to Christians is but a drop in the bucket in the big picture... we are just children who are being taught for the "real world"... which comes after death... So when we screw up or someone we know screws up and it affects us badly, I think if God thinks we will learn from it and in turn help others... he will let it happen.

Its like teaching a child to ride a bike... you let them knowing they will probably fall and hurt themselves... but you still let them do it because its part of the learning process. We are just those children and this isn't the whole life, so its not game over for us after we die.... We go on to something more.

elklandercc

12-29-2007, 11:59 AM

I never bought into the whole plan or predestiny stuff, why would God predestine someone to go to hell?

Tonja_Renee

12-29-2007, 12:07 PM

I don't think he predestines anyone to go to hell either...

I do think he has a plan though and wants it to happen... but we have free will and have the power of choice. He is God and can make his plan happen with or without us... ultimately I think he wants us to be with him.. but of our own free will.

I kind of think of it as parenting... you have a child - want to teach them responsibility so you buy them a fish to look after.... they kill it from neglect.. Do you give up on them thinking they can't be responsible - no.. You learn that they are not ready and try again later.. I think God is parenting us and some get it quicker than others and other rebel - doesn't mean he ever gives up on us... Just patiently waits for us to get it.

Kevin Taylor

12-29-2007, 12:30 PM

Tonja_Renee

12-29-2007, 12:42 PM

So all this stuff you just 'think' to be true.
You don't have any actual proof.
Man, talk about irony if it's actually the Devil in charge of everything and you've doing it backwards all this time.

Yes I beleive it with all my heart... I don't expect you to be able to understand. I use the term think as I didn't want to step on anyone toes by stating it was true... I know its what I beleive.

I pray that someday you may understand.

There isn't any proof that he doesn't exist either and we know Jesus walked this earth - that is a fact. I think there is more evidence to support the existance of God than not. Look at the earth - I just can't beleive that everything with the creation of the earth just randomlly happened. But that is where you and I differ...

I just can't beleive that a new born baby just randomly evolved one day and survived into adulthood on this Earth... And you said I have faith.. I think to beleive that would require just as much faith.

earthman buck

12-29-2007, 01:20 PM

As for the passages... just quoting one passage of scripture without reading the whole chapter is not a good idea. The bible is written in many parables, and pictures etc... It talks a lot about the bearing of fruit - which really has nothing to do with actual fruit... mostly its about the nourishment of God. And the bible says that if we don't get nourishment from God (spiritually) we won't bear fruit (I think this means goodness and kindess to others) and wither and become empty. I haven't read that whole chapter so I reserve the right to retract my interpretation, but I've seen those comparisons before in the Bible. You of all people Brendon I thought would be able to read into the metaphors..
Oh, I get them. That passage continues with Jesus saying something like "What I did to that tree is what'll eventually happen to you if you don't believe in me." I just find the idea of the "Prince of Peace" needlessly killing a living thing funny.

I just can't beleive that a new born baby just randomly evolved one day and survived into adulthood on this Earth... And you said I have faith.. I think to beleive that would require just as much faith.
It was a lot more gradual than that. It was more a matter of families of monkey-things gradually having children with an extra toe, or less hair, or whatever would adapt them better to their surroundings at the time (and by 'at the time' I mean a period of thousands of years).

Since we're getting more into this discussion, I might as well make a distinction that I believe is important - the difference between God and god. God is the Perfect Creator of The Universe, whereas god is the creator of the universe. This is why I said earlier I was an Atheist and not an atheist. While I still don't believe in god, I have no proof he doesn't exist, and therefore I remain neutral on the subject of his existence. I have to admit, the idea we were all created sounds as plausible as any other theory we've got (until you start asking questions like 'who created the creator?' but never mind that).

But I do not - cannot - believe in the existence of God, simply because of the idea God is Perfect. Rather than explain all this over again, I'll just link you up with my philosophy mid-term (http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/6/14/1176731/Philosophy mid-term.doc).

Tonja_Renee

12-29-2007, 01:56 PM

Ok.. that was interesting...

As far as the gradual evolution - I still find that extremely hard to beleive... because scientifically (since that is where the argument comes from) if that were the case... we would have species in midst of evolving right now... I haven't seen any apes or gorrillas giving birth to human babies.. or have even heard of it. Let alone other species evolving into different species. Just requires just as much faith as to beleive that God created us.

And I can't really comment on the whole "perfect" argument... because I don't know what the original hebrew word that it refers to in the Bible... there are many instances in the bible that a word is translated and is used differently now than it was back then... and example is Emmanuel.. in the bible the hebrew word for Emmanuel (meaning God with us) is used.. and sometimes its translated to God with us and others it was left as a proper name Emmanuel still means the same thing however Emmanuel was somehow converted to a proper name when that appears was not the intention...

I beleive God is a supreme being, Almighty as compared to us... he is the Creator.. It states in the bible that we as mankind will become perfect after the Lord works on us... So i'm leaning towards the definition is not the same... maybe it means "ready" and completed or finished... that is just speculation on my part - but to not beleive in God based on one word and its definition doesn't seem just in my opinion.

Kevin Taylor

12-29-2007, 01:59 PM

I pray that someday you may understand.

And I pray to Malvor the Magnificent for you too.

Tonja_Renee

12-29-2007, 02:04 PM

And I pray to Malvor the Magnificent for you too.

Whatever works for ya... :p

earthman buck

12-30-2007, 01:55 AM

As far as the gradual evolution - I still find that extremely hard to beleive... because scientifically (since that is where the argument comes from) if that were the case... we would have species in midst of evolving right now... I haven't seen any apes or gorrillas giving birth to human babies.. or have even heard of it. Let alone other species evolving into different species.
You're still not thinking gradual enough. In China, for example, it's a not-totally-uncommon thing for kids to be born with 6 toes. There is some debate as to whether this is just a mutation or the next step in evolution for humans.

Not to mention the fact that the 'monkey-things' we [supposedly] evolved from weren't of the same species as gorillas and chimps. Should they keep evolving, you might find they would look less like people.

But yes, I will grant you that it is a fairly absurd theory.

EDIT: And on the lighter side...
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s7/fude_is_good/stuff/anti-jesus.jpg

:)

looneytunes

12-30-2007, 10:27 AM

This is the lighter side? You should go in politics, the way you twist things around. I hear Billiary could use a running mate!

Tonja_Renee

12-30-2007, 11:11 AM

Yeah... jokes like that.. twist things around to make them sound silly... but to be honest even twisted around like that in a joke - still doesn't make it sound any more silly than any other theory out there.

And six toes... what would be the benefit for having six toes... the theory of evolution is based on adapting to environment... and I'm at a loss as to how that would help someone.

Kevin Taylor

12-30-2007, 11:49 AM

Better balance and flipperless swimming?

earthman buck

12-30-2007, 01:59 PM

Yeah... jokes like that.. twist things around to make them sound silly... but to be honest even twisted around like that in a joke - still doesn't make it sound any more silly than any other theory out there.
I'm going to have to disagree. That thing (which I didn't write, by the way) is a LOT more outrageous than "we used to be monkeys." But it really had nothing to do with my argument, it was just something my friend showed me last night and thought some of you might get a chuckle out of.

And six toes... what would be the benefit for having six toes... the theory of evolution is based on adapting to environment... and I'm at a loss as to how that would help someone.
That's because you're still at this point in evolution and therefore a lesser being. Do you think neanderthals understood why their brows were gradually shrinking and they were becoming less hairy? No, of course not. The theory of evolution hadn't come up yet and it's not like they were well-immersed in the history of the human being. But you can bet that if they had the kind of info we do, they'd be asking similar questions, and getting no answers. You can't answer a question before it's done being asked, so to speak. Until the next phase of evolution is complete, it's no good to ask why the change is occurring. And we'll all be loooooooooooong dead by then.

This of course is following the theory of evolution, not necessarily my own beliefs.

Tonja_Renee

12-30-2007, 03:53 PM

I'm going to have to disagree. That thing (which I didn't write, by the way) is a LOT more outrageous than "we used to be monkeys." of.

The entire concept of evolution is what I refering too, not just the monkeys portion of the tale. However, i find that joke pretty offensive... and I feel that a fairly respectable debate of beleifs was taken to new low at Christians' expense.

earthman buck

12-30-2007, 04:41 PM

The entire concept of evolution is what I refering too, not just the monkeys portion of the tale. However, i find that joke pretty offensive... and I feel that a fairly respectable debate of beleifs was taken to new low at Christians' expense.
I'm sorry you feel that way, no offense was meant.

looneytunes

12-31-2007, 11:14 AM

Tonja,

It's just another example of how Christians are treated whenever they merely express their believes and ask questions. They cannot answer the questions, such as, what is right and wrong or who do they give thanks to on Thanksgiving, or do they celebrate CHRISTmas as hipocrites (just another free day!) or do they insist on working that day without any holiday pay, etc.

They can only attack. It's not really anything new. They feel we are attacking them by making them accountable for their actions. This is why they do not want to acknowledge a God. If there is no God, they can do anything they want without fear of punishment. It's as simple as that!

Of course, they will consider this as an attack on them. This is just an assumption based upon their response to our questions and their sick joke.

Oh, Happy New Year everybody! Please don't drink and drive. :)

Geeetar4Life

12-31-2007, 11:34 AM

Christmas is over. I say we drop it.

Tonja_Renee

12-31-2007, 04:19 PM

Nah.. its all good.

Earthman and I are friends... But if I didn't let him know he crossed the line with me - he wouldn't know not to go that far with me again...

All is forgivin... and we are good. That would be the Christian way.. ;)

Looneytunes,

It says in the bible to expect that type of persecution... so I sort of expect it... I do however try to remain respectful in my responses and try not to get too defensive... It was but just a few years ago that I was asking the same types of questions and not sure where my heart or beliefs were... So there is hope for everyone out there yet... Remember - WWJD.

earthman buck

12-31-2007, 06:47 PM

I'm willing to drop this (except for the fact I am having a lot of fun with it :)), but there are a few things I'd like to point out first.

It's just another example of how Christians are treated whenever they merely express their believes and ask questions. They cannot answer the questions, such as, what is right and wrong or who do they give thanks to on Thanksgiving, or do they celebrate CHRISTmas as hipocrites (just another free day!) or do they insist on working that day without any holiday pay, etc.
1.) I answered your question about right and wrong, and so did Kevin.
2.) It's not a matter of who I give thanks to on Thanksgiving so much as what I give thanks for.
3.) I celebrate Christmas because my family is Christian and I greatly enjoy spending time with them. Also, as I'm pretty sure I mentioned, I do believe in many of the teachings of Christ. If there was a Kurt Vonnegut day, I'd celebrate that too.
4.) Do Jews who work for a company that closes on Christmas Day insist on going to work that day? I think not. No matter your religion, a day off is a day off.

They can only attack. It's not really anything new. They feel we are attacking them by making them accountable for their actions. This is why they do not want to acknowledge a God. If there is no God, they can do anything they want without fear of punishment. It's as simple as that!
That is absolutely ridiculous. There are still earthly laws to be obeyed. If what you said was at all true, I would be out robbing banks right now. However, I have a fear of being sent to jail and happen to think it unfair to take other people's money.

Oh, Happy New Year everybody! Please don't drink and drive. :)
Thanks, the same to you. And I won't.