Modes vs. Scales

[shaggy_bonez]

So I've been procrastinating, as we all do, from learning theory (chords, intervals, modes, etc. etc.). I find myself just jamming over and over again thru the Am Penta modes (at least I think they're the modes). Should I learn more scales, learn beginner theory, move on to other modes? Any advice is good advice.

Thanks in advance,
Shaggy

[dvenetian]

Start with the Major scale and everything else will fall into place....

[Benoit]

If you have access to the lessons on GT, here's a few good link

Intervales
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=362

C Major Scale
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=363

C Major Scale Exercises
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=373

Modes Lesson
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=370

Pentatonic Scales
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=296
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=185

[light487]

What is the point of the different modes? I have looked at this puzzle for years and never really know why you have to call it something different just because you are starting the scale at a different point.. it's still the same scale... just that you started on the 3rd note of the scale (ie. Phrygian).. Mixolydian.. 5th note.. but still the same scale..

The root note is always going to sound like, to me at least, it is completing or starting the scale "properly". The scale itself is the defining thing for me.. whether I add a sharp or flat there and there, within the major scale.

Are modes just a complex way of saying: It's this scale but you start on the nth note.

???

[shaggy_bonez]

If you have access to the lessons on GT, here's a few good link

Intervales
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=362

C Major Scale
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=363

C Major Scale Exercises
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=373

Modes Lesson
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=370

Pentatonic Scales
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=296
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=185


Should I take 'em in that order, learn from top down? Anyway, thanks much man. Definitely appreciate it.

[Benoit]

This should give you a pretty good training in scales :) Do them in order and take your time. This is a lot of info and you need to really understand each of them before moving on.

Intervales
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=362

C Major Scale
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=363

C Major Scale Exercises
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=373

Addtionnal C Major exercises using hammer-ons and pull-offs
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=338
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=367

Pentatonic Scales
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=296
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=185

Modes Lesson
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=370

Mixing Major notes in Minor Pentatonic Scale
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=217
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=232
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=244

Scale exercises
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=28
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=38
http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=75

[shaggy_bonez]

Awesome, man, awesome! Can't thank ya enough

Keep on rockin'!

[dvenetian]

What is the point of the different modes? I have looked at this puzzle for years and never really know why you have to call it something different just because you are starting the scale at a different point.. it's still the same scale... just that you started on the 3rd note of the scale (ie. Phrygian).. Mixolydian.. 5th note.. but still the same scale..

The root note is always going to sound like, to me at least, it is completing or starting the scale "properly". The scale itself is the defining thing for me.. whether I add a sharp or flat there and there, within the major scale.

Are modes just a complex way of saying: It's this scale but you start on the nth note.

???
When you start from a note other than the Root of the Major scale, the intervals change in the scale from the new start note. This can create a subtle variation (like the b7th interval in the Mixolydian mode). It can also change the Major to a minor expression, when applied with the proper progression (like the b3rd and b7th intervals in the Dorian mode).
It's much more than saying ; It's the same scale but you start, etc..........
What it really refers to is that it's a different scale that shares the same Key.
Hopefully that will help in defining where things fit in the puzzle.

[Fret spider]

as you say a scale is a scale. but the modes of the scale give the notes in the scale different meaning.

this is hard to explain. i mean that say we have the scale c majour. and the chord progression cmaj, amin,fmaj.

ok so you could play c ionion over the whole thing, or you could play c ionion, a aolion and f lydian.

but i here you cry they all have the same notes in them. well yes they do, but playing each mode is more than playin all the notes in the scale up or down or in some random order. how you phrase ur riffs is important. like if u keep returning to a note, it might very well sound like that is the root of the mode. so if you played the note a a lot it would sound like a aolion. or f a lot f lydian.

i am simplifying things here a lot but thats the jist. or at least how i understand it. if u want me to go into more detail ask.

[Weslaba]

I understand how it works pretty much, for example if the chord has a b7 then mixolydian would be the mode to use instead of ionian (Yes, you can use ionian, but this is too keep things simple) Even though I understand this, I can understand what people have trouble with too, because yeah... it's all just the same 7 notes. I guess you gotta just learn all the modes and then with time, the purpose will fall into place, because Heck... it's better to know them and be confused with when to use them, than not know them at all, and not even have the liberty of messing around to see what works. :cool:

[Jolly McJollyson]

Are modes just a complex way of saying: It's this scale but you start on the nth note.

???
No.

"It's this scale but you start on the nth note" is an oversimplifying, confusing way of defining a mode. A mode is, like a scale, an order of steps begun from a root note. When someone says "start the scale on this note and you have 'x' mode," what he really means is "use 'x' note as your ROOT note in this mode and it will contain the same notes (with different positions in the octave) as this corresponding scale." For example, E phrygian, which has a root note of E, contains the notes E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E, an octave with no sharps and flats. The interval (pitch distance) between each note is as follows: 1-2-2-2-1-2-2 (1 represents a half step, or one fret, 2 a whole step, or two frets)

You will notice that E phrygian contains the same notes as A minor, but it is not simply "starting the scale on another note," rather the mode takes on a new tonal center (E).

Also, to Fretspider, it is inadvisable to play an A minor melody over a Cmajor backing, because of the different tonal center. You could play an A minor SCALE PATTERN, but doing so would actually be to play a C major scale pattern. Rather, over a Cmajor backing, it is more advisable (and clever) to play C mixolydian, which would not change the tonal center. If you have any questions, please PM me, do not post them in the thread.

[Weslaba]

Kind of a resurrection here, but anyways... I started by learning them as I thought the "normal way" but have recently seen the 3 note per string method. What are the pros and cons?

[Benoit]

Kind of a resurrection here, but anyways... I started by learning them as I thought the "normal way" but have recently seen the 3 note per string method. What are the pros and cons?

I think the most important for me is that when using 3 notes per string you have less big stretches. That does help for faster execution.

Limit the movement and you'll gain speed. You'll also gain accuracy since you don't have to shift your hand position much horizontally on the same string.

Not sure if that answers your question.

[dvenetian]

Many players that use 3 notes per string, like the method because it works well with economy picking. I personally don't use the method exclusively because it pertains to an odd number, which throws off my ability to resolve at times. To compensate when I incorporate economy picking, I use hammer-on/pull-off techniques when necessary to maintain flow with the picking technique.
It is all in what your preference is. To me, either method works once you get used to incorporating it into your style.

[Weslaba]

Yeah, I kinda figured it was a preference thing. I'm gonna try out the 3 note per string way for a little and see how it works. So far its woking better for me. I think it spans more of the fretboard too, so that you've got more to work with, or at least visually, it seems that way.