Tell me why...

[blackrose]

Why are there so many groups of people against Jews? Or any for that matter?

[Bardsley]

Because all through history people find it much easier to pick groups of people as being the reason for all their problems, rather than blaming themselves. This might sound a little too simple, but it's the basic reason. In the case of Jews, it is due in large amounts to whose who controlled wealth, and people like Hitler encouraging anti Jewish sentiment for largely financial reasons, that the average person didn't know about. Hate of any group of people is entirely irrational, and it is something that is one of the most horrible things that continues to exist. The idea that you can blame someone for problems simply because they were born in a different setting to you would be laughable, if it weren't so real.

[Lordathestrings]

Any time you hear, or read, a speech about US and THEM, you know what kind of evil is afoot.

Some cultural cliches exist because they have a grain of truth to them. That doesn't justify hatred of whole groups of people.

Even when an individual does something truly despicable, hatred doesn't solve anything.

[educatedfilm]

hmmm.... one English king expelled Jews because he didn't want to pay his debts...
Persecution of any race is wrong (like you needed telling)... no matter what "reason", most of the time it's irrational fear of the unknown...
The media is a very powerful tool in this...

I'm a little worried that the open forum is becomming a little too political... Anyone else?

[Percival Blues Shredder]

yeah, its sad
instead of talking about music and guitars we talk about things that dont belong here,
leave politics out of music

[Zeppelin]

i could spend hours here writing the history of the modern hate of jews, but i guess most of us know it anyway, so i keep it to myself
i think people started to hate us from the beginning of the dark ages, because we were almost the only non christians around at some point, and the others like gypsies almost disappeared during the years or became christians

anyway.. i was wondering why did you ask this question?

[blackrose]

Its simple really. Every major terrorist group I have heard of in my entire life hated jews. (And yes, I consider hitler to have been a terrorist). Ive even met and talked to terrorists online (ppl like members of the LoL, Phreaks, and so forth) and EVERY SINGLE ONE I have talked to hated jews. It seems to be everywhere...if I were a jew I would be quite paranoid. And I like asking questions becuase I love finding out how screwed up my thoughts of what life are.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by blackrose
Why are there so many groups of people against Jews? Or any for that matter?

All these people are talking about symptoms, but to really see the reason for the widespread hatred of the Jews you have to go back . . . way back about 4 thousand years, to the Old Testament, and look at the beliefs and history of the Jews and Arabs.

According to the Old Testament, the Jews invaded Palestine and expelled the Arab peoples. So that's reason number one. Reason number two is that according to the Pentateuch (the writings of Moses that eventually became the first five books of the Bible) the Jews are the chosen people of god. And they made sure that all the surrounding peoples knew this. This is why Hitler hated the Jews. He thought that the Germans were the superior race and the people of god, and he wanted to exterminate the competition.

And the Jews hate the Arabs because of their beliefs too. According to the Koran, Abraham, Joshua, and Moses were all just prophets leading up to the great prophet Muhammad. And of course there's the whole thing with the Temple of the Rock that happens to be sitting on the former site of the Temple Mount, which was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70.

It doesn't matter what you think about the Bible, or if it's true. All these things are externally and independently verified historical facts.

The vicious cycle continues.

[Zeppelin]

the christians hated us since the christianity became the official religion of the rome empire, claiming we killed jesus, and they also claimed that now the christians are the real sons of israel, while jews betrayed god, and no longer "the choosen people".
The real fact is that jesus never did realy said something against judaism, also he never started a new religion
he was born as a jew and died as one (another fact that the german racist during WWII somehow missed out)

lots of people out there think that judaism is about revenge
while christianity is a peacfull religion, but judaism rulles about "eye under eye" were not something new the jews came up with. this system of rulles was also in babylon and all over mesopotamia. Actualy the bible (im talking about the jewish part, i dont know its english name)
is a very sociable code of laws, including many laws that urge rich people to help the poor, the strangers that are comming to live with the jews, and other weak members of the society

[blackrose]

Originally posted by Zeppelin
... also he never started a new religion...

Ever hear of christianity? Yeah, he started that...

[Zeppelin]

when???
when did he come and say "today im starting a new religion
Christianity will be its name"
when did he said it????!]

the guy died and 100 years later jews again started to to call themselves christians , and started to walk around the rome empire and to spread their religion

[educatedfilm]

I think the part of the bible your talking about is "the old testement" although i'm not sure...

[Christoph]

If you bothered to read my post, it's called the Pentateuch.

[MorseRulez]

all i can say is that i love israel as if it were my own country, because i love and fear GOD. and as i understand it, jews are GOD'S chosen people. 'nuff said'

[blackrose]

Originally posted by Zeppelin
when???
when did he come and say "today im starting a new religion
Christianity will be its name"
when did he said it????!]

the guy died and 100 years later jews again started to to call themselves christians , and started to walk around the rome empire and to spread their religion



Read the new testament. Jesus plainly stated the basic doctrines of christianity while he was still alive and made it very clear that his teachings were the only way to heaven. And Jews started walking around calling themselves christians not 100 years later but less than a year after his death and ressurection (historians argue as to the number of days)and went around the Roman empire starting on the day of pentacost...but you probably have never heard of that because its rather clear you dont know what you're talking about. And although the name christianity as I already mentioned is being in dispute as to its exact origin, the christian beliefs have always been around starting at the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

[Edited by blackrose on 10-19-2001 at 04:54 PM]

[Zeppelin]

the time after his death doesnt change anything, all i know is that according to historical facts jesus was born as a jew, and died as one.
I can argue with you till tommorow's morning but jesus dint invent anything new.. All those anti revenge talks appear also in the old testament, in its law part which is the Pentateuch. Even if he was a son of god and a prophet, still he didnt say anything that didnt appear in the Pentateuch, his followers are the people who started the new religion not he himself.

[blackrose]

Originally posted by Zeppelin
the time after his death doesnt change anything, all i know is that according to historical facts jesus was born as a jew, and died as one.
I can argue with you till tommorow's morning but jesus dint invent anything new.. All those anti revenge talks appear also in the old testament, in its law part which is the Pentateuch. Even if he was a son of god and a prophet, still he didnt say anything that didnt appear in the Pentateuch, his followers are the people who started the new religion not he himself.


Yes, he was Jewish. Thats a given fact. And if you read the bible (as I already advised), he DID come up with what was new ideas at the time. And his followers only believed what he already had told them...they didnt make it up. You need to update yer sources or something with those crackheaded ideas of yours...

[Christoph]

Originally posted by MorseRulez
all i can say is that i love israel as if it were my own country, because i love and fear GOD. and as i understand it, jews are GOD'S chosen people. 'nuff said'

I'm with you on this one. You don't want to mess with Israel. Remember the 6 Day War?


Originally posted by educatedfilm
I'm a little worried that the open forum is becomming a little too political... Anyone else?

Heh, it's more interesting than talking about everyone's favorite guitarist or why this band sucks and that other band rocks.

[Raskolnikov]

I think there are too many versions of the Bible to spend too much time debating exact points. The English Language Bibles you'll find today have been translated and retranslated from several languages, so there's going to be distortions. Also, the whole book is up for intrepretation, though the general gist of it is "be good to people."

Anyway, if you look at the history books or even the wolrd news, you usually find that any time people can separate themselves into "us" and "them" problems arise. We find all kinds of ways to do it too.

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by blackrose


Yes, he was Jewish. Thats a given fact. And if you read the bible (as I already advised), he DID come up with what was new ideas at the time. And his followers only believed what he already had told them...they didnt make it up. You need to update yer sources or something with those crackheaded ideas of yours...

hmm maybe i realy should read it, but i think for the beginning i'll ask you to tell my what are those new ideas

the only different thing between him and other people before him, as far as i know was that he said "im telling you" while the other guys, like moses and eliyahu (i dont know what his english name) said "god tells you to.."

[educatedfilm]

hmmm... Raskinikov you'r really starting to annoy me!!! You keep saying what i want to say! :)...

[Raskolnikov]

Well, we bassists have to be on top of things. It takes a fast mind to cover for the average guitarist.

[educatedfilm]

More like we're in differnt time zones (6 hours aparts), you get to get to check the forum at the same time as poeple post, and i check it the next morning 18hours later... except right now where it's 11.30 pm, and i'm about to fall asleep...
"It takes a fast mind to cover for the average guitarist"
You cheeky monkey .. :)

[blackrose]

Originally posted by Zeppelin
Originally posted by blackrose


Yes, he was Jewish. Thats a given fact. And if you read the bible (as I already advised), he DID come up with what was new ideas at the time. And his followers only believed what he already had told them...they didnt make it up. You need to update yer sources or something with those crackheaded ideas of yours...

hmm maybe i realy should read it, but i think for the beginning i'll ask you to tell my what are those new ideas

the only different thing between him and other people before him, as far as i know was that he said "im telling you" while the other guys, like moses and eliyahu (i dont know what his english name) said "god tells you to.."

The main new idea was that good works and sacrafice could not send people to heaven, that only a personal relationship with God could.

[Zeppelin]

ok..
Thats probably because the judaism (the old testament) is not speaking about heaven at all... this is something that was added later
Anyway it really doesnt matter, because basicly the guy took judaism and said "you are praying the god in the wrong way" or something like did, he didnt tell them that the god they believed in was something else, he didnt tell them to change the way they are praying, or anything else.
i dont want to argue about this anymore, i said my point : christianity is somewhat upgraded judaism, which was supposed to stay as judaism but somehow turned out to be a new religion

[blackrose]

I disagree. I think that it was not meant to stay as judaism. Just for the sake of agreement, though, Christianity and Judaism worship the same God. I will agree with that.

[educatedfilm]

"I disagree. I think that it was not meant to stay as judaism. Just for the sake of agreement, though, Christianity and Judaism worship the same God. I will agree with that."

hmmm... muslims see that god sent muhammed to "upgrade" christainity if you will... they worship the same god as christains and jews...

I think christoph may have accidently got his facts wrong... the definition of muslim is someone who believes in one god and gives their cause to this ONE god... this basically means that all of the prophets were muslim (as well as being jewish/ christain), and infact jews would be muslim (christains wouldnt be eligible, as jesus is taken to be second god..oh well, you win some you lose some)... To be honest pre-Isreal, there hasn't been much conflict between jews and arabs (muslims), infact the north african arabs took the jews in with open arms during the spanish inquisition...

Religion is a really tough topic to debate, as the main points rely on blind belife... I mean no one has proved there is a life after death, but that doesn't mean there isn't one... infact, i think having a religion is a safer bet than not having one... cos if your wrong, and there is no after life, you wont know and you wont feel any disapointment or anything... if your right... well, you'll get the heaven you were promised, or the state of Nirvana you seeked to purify you from the pain of desire, or etarnal rest or whatever...
oh well... that's just my oppinion...

[Christoph]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
I think christoph may have accidently got his facts wrong... the definition of muslim is someone who believes in one god and gives their cause to this ONE god...

I don't know where you get these co-ckamamie ideas. The definition of a muslim is someone who believes that Allah is the one true god, Muhammed is his prophet, and the Quran is his inspired word. Anyone who believes differently is an infidel and deserves to die. This is why they hate Jews, Christians, and everybody else for that matter. Of the six pillars of the Islamic "faith" (Testimony, Prayer, Giving, Fasting, Pilgrimage, and Jihad), the pillar of Jihad is conveniently left out in all popular references. Apparently they don't want to offend us while they're plotting our destruction.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
Religion is a really tough topic to debate, as the main points rely on blind belife...

All religions are basically good in the sense that they give people a sense of morality and goodness and provide them a reason for living. However, when a religion, such as Islam, goes against the general good of mankind and advocates killing people, there is no reason for its existence, and it should be eradicated.

[Bardsley]

Oh please... let's start talking about eradicting groups of people of a particular religion shall we? That's rich.

[educatedfilm]

Christoph:
1) Allah is the arabic word for god...
2) there are FIVE pillars of islam, testifying your belife that there is a god and that mohammed is his prophet, fasting, praying 5 times a day, pilgrimage to mecaa for anyone who has the means and is of able body and mind, and Charity... Jihad is not one of the pillars, even though it is mentioned in the koran..
3) the defination of islam I gave is from a muslim imam, and he said that's why Abraham is a muslim (in the eyes of the muslims)... It's a bit like a doctor, when we say doctor now a days we see someone who's gone to medical school, works in hospital, uses medicine, reliese on a diagnosis prognosis method towards deciding what methods to follow, but hypocraties was the first doctor, and he doesn't really strike too much of a resemblance, but both run on the same principals... so Abraham is kinda the first muslim, but he's not too similar to the modern muslim..
4) muslims belive is god's word, not a representaition, not a translation, just god's word brought down by the angel gabriel...
5) Jihad: I've said this before, Jihad means to do for the sake of god, which includes comunity... It does have a military aspect, and it's governed by 2 ideas... You dont retreat, and you take and treat well prisoners. This means that their warefare has an incredible edge, as it means that opposing soldiers are more likely to give up... Suicide is condemed no matter the cirmumsatnces, but there is reward for patients during difficult time (for those who are pro euthenasia)...
6) Where did you get the idea that muslims believe that "infedels" should die? I think you've been watching too many films... Cos by that policy islam wouldn't have got into countries like malasia, but it has, and it wasn't by force, or by invasion... it was by bright and chirpy traders...
7) Destroy islam? How come when kill 6.5 million jews you are seen as (quite rightly) as a monster, and we still have cemomeration days 50+ years on? and here we have someone advocating the same thing, but it's ok cos it's to another religion...

I'll try to get you some quotes from the koran about jihad... Jihad is no secret, it's a military policy for combatants against combatents, and it's all above board by intrenational law... ANyway can you say the muslim have ever been responsible for a holocaust, pol pot killing fields, Stalins Siberia. I mean come on!!



[Edited by educatedfilm on 10-25-2001 at 06:14 PM]

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Bardsley
Oh please... let's start talking about eradicting groups of people of a particular religion shall we? That's rich.

I'm just saying that from a purely humanistic, existential point of a view, a religion that goes against the empirically proven values of mankind should be done away with.

It's survivial of the fittest. You liberals like to spout that off when it serves your purpose, but who's to say that it can't apply to religions and civilizations. Usama and all those other nutcases are just mad that the middle east is no longer the center of the world. They had their time, but now is the time for mankind to move ahead and leave behind these primitive religions.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
Jihad is not one of the pillars, even though it is mentioned in the koran..

I've studied Islam. Jihad is in the Quran, and it is the sixth pillar. Muslim clerics and people like you always deny it, but it was openly expressed in the early days of Islam. That's how they took over north Africa and central Asia, by invasion and killing people.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
Where did you get the idea that muslims believe that "infedels" should die?

It's in the Quran, dude! I've read it. You think Usama Bin Boy kills people for the fun of it? No! . . . he kills people because he believes that it is his duty under the Quran and Allah.

[Bardsley]

Wow, no one has ever said "you liberals" to me, I kinda like it... Actually, I am aware of slightly misquoting you, I guess you are more for getting rid of the religion in the people, not necessarily the people in the religion (though if push comes to shove I guess you would say that sometimes it may be the necessary answer). Also, I am not aware of "survival of the fittest" being a particular liberal ideology, though not being part of any particular club or anything I can't speak for all of us. I am not a big fan of the survival of the fittest idea in any way that I can immediately think of. I realise that it works on a sort of basic level, but that particular side of Darwinism is challenged to an extent, and if I am a bleeding heart lefty I am probably all for large amounts of money being spent on welfare of disabled people and stuff, which is, like, not really in keeping with me saying, like, survival of the fittest and stuff like that y'know, man? *takes a big toke of weed and strums blowing in the wind while looking at pictures of flowers*
Anyway... I definately understand where you are coming from, if Islam (I don't pretend to know anything about it) does advocate killing of others, there is a problem. Relatvism makes sense, but there are points when interfering of cultures is not necessarily being imperialist. However, Christianity survives, because ideals that have gone along with it change, and the bible is interpreted differently. I realise that the BIble says "thou shalt not kill" but it has still been used as justification for mass slaughter (think, crusades), and ill treatment of others. Religious texts, I think, need to be seen more as moral viewpoints of another time, philosophical texts akin to Plato, etc. We take on board many ideals, but choose not to follow other laws, like those ones mentioned in those emails about selling daughters into slavery, not planting two crops in the same field, working on sabbath, and so on. Christianity has moved on, and among more liberal muslim societies (like afghanistan before the Taliban came to power) so has Islam.

[educatedfilm]

Christoph: Eh? Where does it say that "infidels should die"? I'm afraid you are totally out of line there... I've read a good section of the koran and nothing like that is mentioned...
And the[/b]five [/b] pillars of islam are there becuase they apply to every muslim, and there is a punishment if they're not done... Jihad isn't in this becuase it doesn't apply to women (like the army doesn't let women on the front line) and men of a certain age... it's a policy for soldiers against other soldiers, not muslims against non-muslims...
Sorry to get serious on you, but Chirstoph if your going to say something like that your gonna need proof.. or at least tell us from which "sora" it came from...

"That's how they took over north Africa and central Asia, by invasion and killing people." Eh? They never killed as many poeple as the crusaders, and they didn't force anyone to change their religion (like the spaniards did during the incusition)... Islam spread as far as malasia and indonesia by peaceful muslims...

[blackrose]

the inquisitian always has pissed me off.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Bardsley
Religious texts, I think, need to be seen more as moral viewpoints of another time, philosophical texts akin to Plato, etc.

Yeah. Like I said, all religions are basically good in that they tell people to be nice to each other and give them a sense of morality. Religion should be reinterpreted to fit the needs of society. An example would be the rise of Protestantism after the Renaissance. The clergy and the nobles were losing their power because of the industrial revolution, and Christianity was redefined accordingly. Religion tends to "evolve" to fit the time period, and we keep the beneficial things (i.e. don't kill, don't steal) and dump the rest. (like stoning people and sacrificing oxen)

The problem is that we have 10-15% of the Islamic community who believe in Jihad and killing infidels and hating America. It really doesn't matter if it's really in the Quran because this is how they have interpreted it.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
Where does it say that "infidels should die"?

*Sigh* You're going to make me dig out my copy of the Quran, aren't you? I just hope I didn't trash it . . . Once again, it really doesn't matter if it's really in there. All text can be interpreted in different ways (like everyone has been so quick to point out, the Bible has been used for justification of atrocity in the past), and Usama and his boys all believe that according to the Quran, jihad is their duty. There are passages that talk of war against those who don't believe in Allah and corrupt his teachings, but if I bothered to cite them you would just say, "Oh, you're taking it out of context, blah, blah . . .", but the Muslim fanatics obviously take them quite seriously.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
They never killed as many poeple as the crusaders...

Bah! Says who? I'm gunna have to ask for your proof.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
...and they didn't force anyone to change their religion (like the spaniards did during the incusition)

So I suppose you hate the Spanish too? Or is it just America that has that honor?

[Zeppelin]

the problem is not the religion, but the fact that millions of muslims around the world, dont even know how to read or to write, so they didnt read the koran by themselves and those people are led by crazy guys like bin laden, who are realy insane, and then we have millions of guys who are ready to blow themselves up in any given second in any place, although its against their own religion

[token ethnic guy]

Originally posted by blackrose
Why are there so many groups of people against Jews? Or any for that matter?

I'm not Jewish so I can't say I've experienced anything from their persepctive, but it seems to me not "so manay" (probably best to define what this phrase actually means) are anti-Jewish, just anti-everything except themselves. Plenty of people are being hated. Just a few *generalised* (I believe I can do this since the statement is a generalisation too) examples...

Americans and Japanese
English and Germans
Poles and Russians

Not all of these are two way and don't even get me started on whats going on in Africa and the 20-60 million slavs estimated to be killed by Stalin (before anyone brings up the Holocaust and numbers). Hatred exists everywhere and on every level.

As a final note, I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I do think religion is a lot of time a good thing. As Marx said, it is the opium of the masses and helps keep them in line (sports, such as football (which I do love), is good version of this for the non-religious). Its either that or having people like Hitler harnessing the longing that people have to belong and using it for a more sinister purpose. Also, don't forget that these guys fighting in the name of religion are just a minority.

[blackrose]

The concept of majority vs. minority has just about become obsolete...if a few manical people managed to take control of and crash 4 jets then what do you think a "minority" of a measly few million people fighting for their religion can do as a group. Not to sound paranoid but fact is every single person on earth has the capability to create such a tragic incident as to never be forgotten and people in groups are equally capable.

[educatedfilm]

Christoph: heheheh....your happy with what happened during the inquisition? They didn't just slaughter and dirve out muslims, they drove out jews too, and some of those jews took refuge in north africa, where they were taken in with open arms..
I can tell you for a fact, having read the koran in arabic I've never come across such a thing... There is a difference between people mis-inturpriting thier holy book, and the holy book actaully telling them to do it...
I'm afarid there is nothing you can do to stop this (unless you want to live in a society will the richer countries will help the poorer one improve thier education systems, and relive them of their opressors...).
As for the crusaders, look at the muslims history, they took an area and gave poeple the choice of either become muslim or pay additional tax (Jizya), which i admit is like a protection racket, but they didn't kill many poeple, mostly becuase they were the first organised army in the arab world and the poeple fighting them weren't (except for the romans and the persains), so there wasn't much difficulty over comming them, and they stuck to what they were toldm, they didn't kill a civilain, a donkey, or even break a plant...Just have a look at what the crusaders did to the poeple in jarusalem...

[Christoph]

People's preconceptions will always affect how they interpret a series of arguments, data, or whatever. It holds true for you, and it holds true for me. No matter what the other person says, we'll say, "Oh, but what about this other thing . . . the Muslims did that, or America did this." We don't want our beliefs shaken, so we will always find something to support them. It doesn't matter who's right. Maybe no one is. But you and I both know that we're not going to change the other's mind. So on that note . . .

I'm done.

[Bardsley]

I actually feel like we've be3en getting closer to an agreement, with obvious differences of beliefs. I think this line is beginning to reach its limits, and at the threat of betraying my cause, I think I may have to agree with a (shock! horror!) conservative.... I think this makes at least... gulp... TWICE!

[token ethnic guy]

Originally posted by blackrose
The concept of majority vs. minority has just about become obsolete...if a few manical people managed to take control of and crash 4 jets then what do you think a "minority" of a measly few million people fighting for their religion can do as a group. Not to sound paranoid but fact is every single person on earth has the capability to create such a tragic incident as to never be forgotten and people in groups are equally capable.

Your right, to a certain degree, but the concept is not 100% obsolete. In fact it needs to be drilled into a lot of people's heads, especially those who are getting confused with the act having come from the Islamic community. It didn't, it came from a bunch of people who are maniuplating and misquoting a peaceful religion. I don't even think the religion has anything to do with it, but is just an excuse. The realy grievance lies with American (Western) policies in the region.

Now these "millions" who are supposedly ready to right for their country (I'll wait till I see it before I believe it, because you can't trust the media, the Taliban is apparantly forcing people in front of cameras waving anti US flags and a lot of people are actually trying to run away from the up and coming conflict (and American bombs)) are not doing so because the attack on NYC urged them on but because the US (Western) attack on their country is pushing them to.

You're right to feel paranoid, but you'll have to get used to it. Millions of people around the world have had to deal with the this kind of threat for decades (Columbia, UK, Spain, Rwanada etc). Sounds like a harsh statement, but the other option is to start locking up anyone who even smells dodgy, but I think that'd be worse. Unfortunately I really don't think there is going to be a solution to the sympton that is terrorism as the disease, our policies in the Middle-East are not going to change and whether, like me, you are outraged by the Jewish government's actions towards Palestinians (the latter is not 100% innocent mind you), you still can't leave Israel stranded by itself (although they had better be careful because they are doing it themselves at the moment) because then most of the Arabic world will pounce.

[blackrose]

This whole conflict in the middle east was so much more simple when it was merely a dispute over land and not over religion...its like everyone that lives there now thinks its his duty to prove another mans religion wrong by sending him to hell where he will see the errors of his ways...i mean seriously, in Israel you get on a bus in a larger city you dont know if you will get off alive or not in a quite litteral sense. Its that bad. I say all religions that do not preach and practice some form of peace should be denounced as a bunch of hypocrites.

[Lordathestrings]

Thanks for your reply to my post on Joseph's thread about "Now the Taliban will pay a price". I was so intent on trying to express myself clearly that I didn't realise I was posting to the 'wrong' thread! :rolleyes: Doh!

Its fun being human, when it isn't so embarassing.