Now the Taliban will pay a price

[Joseph]

``Now the Taliban will pay a price,'' Bush vowed. (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011007/ts/afghanistan_explosions.html)



I'm sure the last thing you guys want is another reminder that this world has gone to war, but this stuff is all that's on my mind as of late, and I just have to vent. Being that this is a FREE DISCUSSION board, I figure why not. Because, I really want to know how you guys feel about what's going on in this world? How you feel about the administration in charge, and whether or not you gys feel they had no other choice in striking?


No one was supposed to be prepared for this, just like the first attack that took plac on SEPT 11. Basically, for most of us, it's still hard for us to belueve what is going on. We never thought that we would face war at such a high level once again in this country. We don't live life thinking that insanity should control our actions and that's a good thing. We have to continue coming together as human beings, and we can't allow the rest of the worl to think that we are fragile as American's. It's unfortunate that it takes tragedy to unite us like this, but something good has to
come out of this, a way to begin the healing process and to show the world that our love for our country, and for each other cannot be destroyed! The only way ti start the healing process is to know that bin Laden and his troops are no longer a severe threat. And we can't just take his word for it.

We can't just roll over and play dead, and I guess there are too many people in charge who don't want to take the risk in sacrificing more innocent lives in this world. Our minds should be put at ease, and there should be a simple way to resolve things, but at this point it's impossible. If America doesn't strike and eliminate all of their weapon reasources, immediately, than we will always have to look over our shoulders as American citizens for the rest of our lives. We will always have to wonder when the next time will come, when our lives will be threatened.

I've been talking to a lot of people, and the one thing they are worried about is possible retaliation, and other deals that may have been secretly made with other countries. Basically, we have to take it all one step at a time, and we shouldn't jump the gun. But The president gave them a chance, he even offered them millions of dollars, to make things easier, and to prevent this from happening again. But because they have decided to ignore the presidents requests for peace, in some ways he had no choice.

I know it's scary, it's scary to even think about what will become of this world in he next coming months. But I for one can longer sit back and just hope for this situation to just go away. I'm thinking about the future of my family one day, and the thought of living free and clear from terrorism. To live in a country that makes it almost impossible to have have our lives threatened so unexpectedly (ever again,) to once again regain that feeling of security that was almost destroyed!

Osama bin Laden, his attacks on our country proved he is nothing more than a coward, and that he has sealed his own fate. He has come to the end of the road, but he will not thrreaten this country, espevcially after what thousands of people have done in the past to give us freedom. My Grandfather he fought in world War 2, my family goes back a long way, and we have worked too hard to have our beliefs destroyed, or to have our lives threatened until the end of time.

I was never an advocate for violence, nor do I think that it's the answer to all of our problems all of the time. However, sometimes actions speak louder than words, and there are times when we have to be willing to accept that, to prevent evil ffrom invading this country like never before.

I've talked to many people, and thet wonder why now? Especially since America has just sat back over the past few years when other acts of terrorism have hit our country. Why Now? There's no simple answer to this question, however, you can only turn the other cheek so many times. And yes, America cannot lose face over this attack, we have to be strng, and willing to fight for what we believe in.

Only God knows what will come of this world, only God knows if we'll survive mentally, but we can no longer allow other countries to take us apart piece by piece.

What are your opinions on this, do you feel that The President should have waited a little bit longer to strike?

-Joseph

[educatedfilm]

1)They did have a chioce in striking... when the whole loecerbi thing happened and there were the two libyan suspects. we didn't go to incentrate inoccent poeple under a tyrant, we (the uk) put sanctions and made life more difficult but never went to war... the result was that both men were handed over (10 years later), and tried, one was cleared and one was convicted...
2)I dont feel that Bin Laden and co are a threat at the minute, from what i've seen they've been made scapegoats... if they're innocet of the 11th ongoings, it will still be seen as just as he was responsible for bombings of the american embasies....
3) "The president gave them a chance" hold on! When did he give them a real chance? The talaban asked for eveidence, and they were told no! This is much more vital than tring to buy the enemy over... The evidence in itself is very bizzar, they say they've found the passport (made of paper and leather cover) belonging to one of the hijackers (who got blown into tiny meaty chunks, probably whith his passport in his pocket) acouple of blocks down the road from the trade centre, but where is the black box (virtually indistructable)? Also noone know who's dead and who still alive, there are reports that 5 of the 19 are alive, then it was said that these aren't hijakers, they're the real people that the hijackers had used their names, but the names of the hijaker have'nt changed, but there are poeple saying this isn't true...this doesn't add up to me.
4)"Osama bin Laden, his attacks on our country proved he is nothing more than a coward" ... remeber inoccent till proven guilty, and the president saying he believes that he is wouldn't stand up in court...
5)"to prevent evil ffrom invading this country like never before"... Give me one good reason why the death of so many innocent(past the 1.5 million mark now) iraqi's is just accepted, but a few thousand americans (a couple of hundred brits,etc) is some how "The worst act of terrorism", and is some unacceptable evil?
6)I told you (back in the america under attack thread) that they would say they care for the afgan poeple, and then drop bombs... they've become a little wiser since iraq, as such blatant lying cant go unseen, so they drop food as well... the improtant question is, is it meant to be another cosmetic policy, to be picked up their friends in the media, to use as a propaganda tool, or are they really going to feed starving afgan soon to be facing winter... They've droped 39,000 rations (according to BBC news), if they carry this on, there may be enough, but the truth is they're expecting a hell of alot more than 39,000 poeple (a couple million)... so really i've got to keep an eye out for this
7) Another summit that the US pulled out of, was an anti terrorism summit in Febuary... i only found out about this when one of MPs (that's a bit like a member of congress) dropped it into the debate on "Question time", which really shocked me!
8) 60% of americans support the idea that arabs should carry identity cardS! What the hell is the matter with these poeple?! The poeple who are suspected to have caused the crash are all reported to have had false identities, so how are id cards going to help? How do you think arabs will feel about being stopped in the street for being arabs? I've seen the american health service, and i've always wondered why the worlds richest country can't make it's health service free for all? Well, money wasted on id cards, could be better spent on steps to makeing health care more equal for example... If arabs are made to carry id cards, what stops the government making black poeple carrying id, or Oriental, do you knw what i mean?
9)I am the only on to have heard about the president's comment, where he said... i cant remember word for word, but something like : i'm not gonna send a $2,000,000 missile to blow up a $10 tent, just to kick some camels butt.
Which is true, most targets in afganistan are worth less than the bombs, because the counrty has basically been bombed into the stone ago do to civil war, drought, and never realy recovering from the whole war against the USSR...
10) "this isn't a war against islam"... praise the lord for honest mps (not very many though). Going Back to "question time", there is a list of terrorist organisations, and they are all muslim... now i'm no terorism expert but right now i could name oooh, 3 terrorist organisation that aren't muslim, and so aren't on the list (the IRA, mossad, the Tamile tigers), just from the top of my head...
11) this being handled very badly, but the truth is in years to come the truth will disappear in the flag flying, national anthem singing, uniform wareing, saluting dogma...

[blackrose]

I think that the bombing was a bit uncalled for...there really isnt that many targets in Afganistan worth the money/time/risk of hitting. Any attack we do whatsoever risks innocent deaths which, if they occured, would make us just as in the wrong as the taliban if not worse for the complete hypocracy of it. I dont think that the president was in the right to risk such an occurance on the behalf of the American people, half of which dont even want him to be president. By the way, if any of you guitar players out there haven't read Ladins speech after the attacks against Afganistan, you need to. He does, as much as I hate to admit it, strike on a good point against the United States. It isnt enough of an excuse to kill people like that, but everyone needs to keep in mind that we are not dealing with a mindless fanatical terrorist with no common sense, we are dealing with a fully competent human being who has as much reasoning behind his beliefs as you and I think we do. The only difference is that his reasoning is targeted against us as much as ours is against him.

What I'm trying to say and I hope I have already said is that this entire occurance is not a conflict of nationalities and foriegn factions, the entire scenario operates at an incredibly personal level on both sides of the conflict. Never forget who we are dealing with, or more importantly, who we are in comparison to them. There isnt that much difference.

All that probably hasn't made any sense yet because I dont write in a coherent pattern, but thats my opinion on the whole thing. Quite a lot of philosophy for a 16 year old guy but I'm sure someone will find it meaningfull.




Id cards for arabs...kind of reminds me of how we treated the Japanese in WW2...

[Zeppelin]

educatedfilm: mossad is the israeli intelligence, not a terror organization, however there is a jewish organization in this list as far as i know..
my problem with this whole attack, is as usual from a typical israeli view: the americans shouldnt make a coalition with people like pakistan, syria and they even wanted iran in.
it seems to me, like to lots of other people that bush just want to show he is doing something instead of realy fighting the terror, and he is worried too much about the muslim countries opinion instead of fighting the terror...

[educatedfilm]

Black rose:"He does, as much as I hate to admit it, strike on a good point against the United States. It isnt enough of an excuse to kill people like that, but everyone needs to keep in mind that we are not dealing with a mindless fanatical terrorist with no common sense, we are dealing with a fully competent human being who has as much reasoning behind his beliefs as you and I think we do. The only difference is that his reasoning is targeted against us as much as ours is against him. "
I'm extremly happy to see there are intelligent poeple who dont fall for the old demonising the enemy routine, who do think for them selves, and dont go straight into "We need to protect country by blowing up someone elses" hysteria.

An update on the position of the afgan poeple, This is all according to BBC news 24:
-There is an estimated 7.5 million poeple now reliant on aid.
- This would mean that 55,000 tonnes of food, suplies, medicens etc need to be droped PER MONTH. This has never been done before.
-39,000 rations have been droped
(39,000/7,500,000 = 0.0052, 0.52%. That means, one ration has to go round, about, 200 people!!!)
-There is not enough shelter.

Zepplin: I do appologies, you are right that mossad is an intelligence group... the name of the right wing group i'm think of has slipped my mind! That's really anoying! It's good to hear there is Jewish group, and that the whole list isn't complete hypocracy...
i think there's a good reason that Bush doesn't want to upset muslim. There are 1 billion of them! He needs Pakistan, Geographicaly, so he can get a strangle hold on afganistan (simply closing off borders means no fuel will get into afaganistan, so the taliban army will be effectivly paralysed). With out them (and their air space) there would be NO attacks. Same goes For saudi arabia. I think if isrialis really want to root out terror they should relize that these countries are essentail, and deserve some credit!

[Christoph]

I don't really want to get into another tit-for-tat shouting match with educatedfilm, so I'll just say that I'm with you. We have to stand together and eliminate these maniacs.

By the way, 94% of the American people support the retaliation and 90% are in favor of how the president has handled everything since the 11th. So that's where he gets the right, Blackrose.

Zeppelin, I agree with you about the coalition. We shouldn't be concerned with the approval of Pakistan, Syria, or anywhere else. That's why we're in this mess in the first place. But as for Bush just wanting to show that he's doing something, the military strikes this weekend were in preparation for the ground assault and were meant to reduce the military effectiveness of the Taliban. So he's not just blowing hot air like Clinton did for the last eight years, and this time we are going to fight the terror.

[educatedfilm]

Christoph: lol, i was't shouting at you! Sorry if it came across that way, i was trying to emphasise that you should read my replies properly before you comment on what i say! No hard feelings?

With out the coalition nothing would happen... just anotehr couple of cruise missiles again, but NO troops. If they want to bring in troops they need the help of Afganistans neighbours (in perticlar Pakistan)! That's why all the politains have been very careful in not upsetting these countries.

[Christoph]

No hard feelings man. We're all guitarists here.

Yes, we do need Pakistan (or some of the northern countries)if we're going to get troops in. I think Zeppelin's point was that we shouldn't be so concerned with the opinions of people and countries that hate us anyway.

A coalition is a fine and good thing, but we shouldn't try to make one at the expense of our own principles.

[skee1]

I DON'T think you guy's are going to agree,
because educatefilm will keep it going forever!
Anyway up on (Guitar maina )the great Mark Seal's
blew off about go give em hell with the bombs,
and got slame dunked by his guitar mania buddy's.


I really don't think WAR&Politics mix with (Guitar's&music)

just my 2 cents cya guys.............
Mark
P:S Your not from the usa, Educatefilm plus the the uk!
sometimes you sound like your from the west bank?

[Edited by skee1 on 10-08-2001 at 08:16 PM]

[Raskolnikov]

I think building a coalition is critical here. As for world opinion not mattering... it should. Everything we do has huge impacts world wide and if we don't take that into consideration, we'll find ourselves alone in the cold. Remember, US polocy is what atracted the attention of bin Laden and his group, everything else they've tacked on there is dressing on the cake.

In my mind it's pretty mindless to fight terrorism and not try to bring the people of the world together on it. The less polarized the mid east is on the issue, the smaller the group of individuals that we will have to fight.

The bottom line is you solve problems by working with people.

[Joseph]

Just about everyone I've come in contact with (as of late) is afraid to comment on what's going on in this world. With America's the recent retaliation methods on other countries, people all over the world, especially those who surround me are afraid that we are doing the wrong thing. A'though there are a lot of us who are strong advocates of peace, we can't just sit around and wait for another strong level of destruction to hit our country. There's too much at risk, and we can't afford to fail.

There's too much hatred in this world, and sometimes a simple conversation just can't solve all of our problems. As American's we have to defend what we believe in, and prepare for our future. The president has tried his best to solve matters in a peaceful way, however, the longer we wait, the more is put at risk for us and our future families.

One of the biggest threats as of late is chemical warefare. This is very scary, and I'm sure that there are millions of American's all over trhe globe who fear that if we retaliate, we are only setting ourselves up for another attack, if not now, but years from now, from those who we least expect to strike. It's been said that there are secret deals with various other countries to destroy America, and everything we have worked hard for. But that's what our military is for, they are prepared in case of such a crisis, and they are not trained to just sit back and hope for the best. It's all about action, and it's about time that we've taken some.

It's safe to say that this world will never be the same again, and you know what, I'm beginning to think that there isn't an amount of money that can prevent all of these acts of terrorism. As American citizens, we've been unprepared for far too long, where at this moment, we seem vulnerable to such attacks (as destruction and cheimcal warefare.)

I know a lot of people who are buying gas masks for protection, doing whatever they can do to prepare themselves for such a high level of destruction. To continue on with their livelihoods, we march proud with our masks in hands, as we have strong faith in our government. But you know, things have been screwed up for far too long, and it's definitely going to take a lot of hard work to make up for the mistakes in out last administration. I hope President Bush is up for the task, however with what I've seen so far, I've been impressed.

But talk is cheap, actions tend to speak louder than words. If America waits any longer to strike, we are giving bin Laden more time to prepare himself for a massive war. It's just all too much to take in at once, but we have no choice.

It's really sickening to think that only a few miles away from where I live, there are possible terrorists, people who I may have met once of twice in my lifetime, people who are dilligently planning this countries demise.

Discrimination is not the answer, it's impossible to be perceptive enough to weed through the good and bad, and I'm really tired of watching this world fall apart as a result. I've seen so many different attitudes change, it's not funny. Although such a crisis is supposed to bring us closer together as Americans, it seems as if a lot of people have narrowed it down to appearance and color, which isn't right.

I've been sick of it down here in Florida for quite some time, and because of recent discoveries, hopefully I've given myself a good enough reason to get the heck out of here. But, still, just like everyone else, I have my responsibilities, my work, and I can't just pick up and leave unless I seriously feel that there's danger beyond words.

I'm not one to panic, but (with this new casew of Anthrax) I feel that there's so much that the authorites aren't telling us. You just can't help feeling overwhelmed in a situation like this, fearing the worst is yet to come. As for the anthrax attack, it's been said that it's highly unlikely that this is another terrorist attack, but now the authories have changed their minds once again.

I guess roight now I'm hanging by a ,moment, just trying to make sence of it all. I'm trying to figure out if I'm wrong in resisting to move back home up north in Massachsetts to stay with my friend Sally, I hope I'm not taking my last breath in deciding to stay next to all of these palm trees.

However, I have a very strong optimistic nature, and I refuse to run away. Not just yet.

God Bless America....

-Joseph

[Christoph]

Last I heard (10PM MDT, Foxnews channel) that anthrax incident was just some isolated freak event and not at all related to terrorism.

What's going on?

By the way, the problem with buying a gas mask to protect yourself from any sort of chemical attack is that by the time you realize that there's been an attack and you need to put it on, you're dead. So unless you're going to march around all the time wearing a gas mask, buying one is a waste of time and money.

[Lordathestrings]

The whole world has seen the crime being committed. The world must now see JUSTICE being done. What we're seeing now, looks more like an international lynch mob.

Any street kid has sense enough to know that if you want to look for something or somebody in a badass part of town, there are people you've gotta deal with in order to take care of business. Even if it means talking politely to scumbags.

Militarily, this coalition of Western power could grind Afghanistan into a flat desert, without changing a dayum thing! There are people in parts of the world who are sufficiently misguided that they think the atrocities committed on 11 September were justifiable acts of war. Bombing Afghanistan (which can't bring a satisfactory sense of victory to any of us) does nothing to prove them wrong.

I firmly believe that certain people richly deserve to die twitching and screaming, in payment for the atrocities committed on 11 September. I believe just as firmly in the importance of serving up that just punishment to only those people who deserve it.

This isn't even remotely like the aftermath of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. At that time everyone knew who the enemy was, and where to find him. These guys lived among us for years, in various European counties, here in Canada, and in the USA. There are more of them, for sure.

Just how does anyone think a massive military assault on Afghanistan is going do anything to eradicate the evil of terrorism?

[educatedfilm]

Nice to see that there is a healthy range of oppinions, and that there are poeple (like Raskelnikov, god bless him) who see that we need to work with poeple.

Skee1: I'm not from the US, i've said this before in the "america under attack", "where are you from", and this thread. I don't know how you came to conclusion that I may have links with the middle east. The fact is SteveP shares alot of my oppinions and used to live (before he moved to Uni) about 20 minutes walk away from here. Ask him your self! Checked my IP!

Gas Masks: gas masks are designed to protect you from easily compressed gases (like mustard gas), they dont do anything for any biological agent! Poeple should get this staight.
Anthrax: anthrax has been known for hundreds of years, and the bacteria is known to live in sheep. One Anthrax case isn't proof for the use of biological weapons. Viralent and infectious strians have been made, but there is no evidence to suggest this has been used. I'm pretty sure a simple anti-biotics test could tell the difference. So it's not like there could be doubt.
Why use Biological weapons?: I dont know, especialy when 19 poeple with box cutters can kill five and half thousand poeple. Also Explosives are much easier to make, and very easy to get the raw materials for. This cant be said for biological weapons. Poeple need to see the most frightning threat is the threat of suicide bombers/ pilots/ drivers etc, there is noway you can fight them.
Chemical weapons: the only case that i know of where gas was used by terrorist was be a cult in Japan, who released nerve gas in the subway, this killed 12 poeple and injured hundreds. Explosives have definetly done more damage.
Scaremongering (in UK): the tabliods when mad when the W.H.O. advised the government to possibly prepare for the threat of biological weapons. The fact is the WHO hasn't got a military role! They have no intelligence, and what they've said was advice, not a warning. Still that didn't stop the tabliods having a field day with it.

I totally agree with lordofthestrings about this whole situation looking too much like a lynch mob, especially now they've hinted that they're going to bomb iraq. It's starting to look like they're going to hit every country that ever had anything against the US.

The most important thing at the moment is to make sure that the pakistani government is kept stable, as they have nuclear capabilites. All hell will break lose if the government is overthrown. Personally i dred to think what some suicide pilot could do with a nuclear bomb!

[Zeppelin]

i think basicly we all dont want innocent people do get hurt in those attacks BUT when i see demonstrations in countries like pakistan, and here in Gaza, and other places i must ask myself: are those people innocent?
those people spending their lifes in growing their hate towards the non muslim west, while if they would leave their fanatism they could live just as well as we do
i mean those guys hate you just because you have a good life, and you can afford things they cant. most of them are so fanatics that they would shoot any american they can, if they had the chance. they are not that innocent, this is one of the only cases when people should be counted as guilty until proved he is not.
there are too much hate for the west, in the muslim countries and my guess is sooner or later they'll conquer the west if the west wont do something

i know this post is full of hate, but its really hard to me to turn on the news every hour and to find out that the usa and europe prefer to close their eyes on those things, and the usa even will give finance support to pakistan when everyday there are demonstrations of hate against america there.

im not even talking about the plo anymore, where few people were shot down yesterday by their own police because they hold a bin laden support demonstration, when their official possition is supposed to be against him.

[educatedfilm]

"i mean those guys hate you just because you have a good life, and you can afford things they cant"
I think that's an over simplification... I mean in mexico there is anti-government and anti-american feeling as they feel that america (and it's big companies) are taking advatage of the corrupt mexican government so the poor poeple are no longer garanteed land (i'm reffering to what happened on the 1st Jan in 94). That's just one example of a group of poeple who don't like america, and it's not because these poeple are fanatical poeple who will hate good ol' america no matter what! There a lot of poeple who feel this way, because of the forign policies...
There are alot of rich arab countries (oman for example). The arab countries are a little different as they see america openly backing thier enemy Israil!...
If we start to presume poeple guilty, that's a dissaster for the poor guy on the street who ends up with a wash-up alcoholic lawyer, and will go to prison even though they're innocent! The "innocent till proven guilty" is what makes our justice system civilized...

"i know this post is full of hate" i hope not! Emotional maybe!
Zepplin: i know you have every reason to dislike muslims, but you have to see it's not religion versus religion, It's now become the rich and powerful versus the silent weak poor... I'm extremly sorry to hear about the plane that was shot down by the Ukrains

[blackrose]

I saw 2 photos in the newspaper today. The first was a demonstration in Pakistan where a man was setting a US flag on fire in front of a crowd. The second photo was of the same scene only the fire spread and had caught half the mans body on fire. Just so you all know how Pakistan feels about the US.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Zeppelin
i think basicly we all dont want innocent people do get hurt in those attacks BUT when i see demonstrations in countries like pakistan, and here in Gaza, and other places i must ask myself: are those people innocent?
those people spending their lifes in growing their hate towards the non muslim west, while if they would leave their fanatism they could live just as well as we do
i mean those guys hate you just because you have a good life, and you can afford things they cant. most of them are so fanatics that they would shoot any american they can, if they had the chance. they are not that innocent, this is one of the only cases when people should be counted as guilty until proved he is not.
there are too much hate for the west, in the muslim countries and my guess is sooner or later they'll conquer the west if the west wont do something

i know this post is full of hate, but its really hard to me to turn on the news every hour and to find out that the usa and europe prefer to close their eyes on those things, and the usa even will give finance support to pakistan when everyday there are demonstrations of hate against america there.

im not even talking about the plo anymore, where few people were shot down yesterday by their own police because they hold a bin laden support demonstration, when their official possition is supposed to be against him.

I find blanket statements a waste of breath and an affront to logic. I realize that you have an entirely different perspective on this than I do, but also realize that mine is fairly objective- I don't consider a few hundred to a couple thousand people demonstrating in a city of millions to be the will of the people. Maybe the extream manifestation of general public sentiment, but it isn't going make me want to stop my tax dollars being spent to help people. As for the Palistinian and Pakistani governments... I know they know which side their bread is buttered on. I don't like seeing measures being taken to stop protests that would be illegal here in the US, but at the same time I realize that if they aren't taken, a very vocal minority could end up hurting their people a lot more in the long run.

This is a huge task: We have to not only go after a very elusive group of people, but we have to consolidate world opinion to our side. This I think is more a PR battle than a war. The real test of the American people (and the rest of the world for that matter) will come when we face up to the pressures that drive people to hate and to kill. We all have to look to ourselves, we all have to look and say "I'm partly to blame here." The world is a very dynamic system- everything we do relates to everybody else one way or another. I don't see us ever finding total world peace, not in my time, probably not in my children's, but I hope that one day people can learn to live and let live. The world must unify.

In the meantime, all I can do is live my life and brace for impact. To be honest, I'm more afraid of dieing alone than I am of death itself. Afterall, some jerkoff could choke on his coffee on my way to Burlington tomorow, run me off I-89 at 80 mph and into a granite wall.

'nuff said. Terrorists really don't worry me.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by blackrose
The second photo was of the same scene only the fire spread and had caught half the mans body on fire.

Yeah, I saw that. That was great.

[Joseph]

Guys, I know it can be disheartening that hate is spreading so rapidly in this world. And the old saying "fight fire with fire" is even sickening for a lot of people to contemplate, but the bottom line here is that if we don't retaliate there's no telling when or where the next act of hate/terrorism will hit this country.

I don't like this any more than you guys do, but the fact of the matter is that it's not all about revenge, it's all about preventing this from happening again. It's easy to say that we could simply try to make others understand where we're coming from, but it's not that easy, because peace isn't on their minds. What they want is to destroy our homeland and everything we believe in at all costs. It's basically an ongoing suicide mission, and they will stop at nothing.

New York City, I've been there several times in my life, and to one day start a family, I don't want to have to worry about destruction. I want to bring my kids up in a world where we don't have to constantly live in fear or terrorism. It's impossible to eliminate terrorism altogether, however for a lot of people our current military actions is a good start.

I hate to think that this world has come to war, but the longer we wait to retaliate, there's no telling what will happen next. As American's, it's true that we can no longer afford to lose face.


What most people don't realize, or want to admit is that for years in foreign countries, people have been planning an attack on America, and it's never going to stop if we continue to look away.

-Joseph

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Joseph
What most people don't realize, or want to admit is that for years in foreign countries, people have been planning an attack on America, and it's never going to stop if we continue to look away.

-Joseph

Nor will the reasons why.

[educatedfilm]

The why. question is more important. How many of you knew that the Saudi governemt is protected by the US from it's own poeple?!! This is officail, it's not ambigous, or just some hinting by a little known about politian, If the Royal family are over thrown, they'de be put back in power... Why do you think oil is so cheap? Why do you think they've allowed the us military to build military bases there? This is one of the reason that made Bin Laden come about, and the very anti-american feeling in Saudi Arabia... The saudi governments is not the nicest of governments...
What makes you think think this attack is some how one of many? It could be a one off... Saddam Husain made threats during the gulf war, and nothing happened, Bin Laden is threatning more plane hijackings, but he's never said he was responsible for the first ones (which is a point which is missed). This is just fighting talk...
I really hope that poeple see that there is no smoke with out a fire, and that the forign policies improve, from Mexico's Land for the poor isues to The Arms to Tiwain (to keep it's sweat shops protected from China, and keep them firmly in the hands of Nike and co)...

[educatedfilm]

Oh yeah... i've just realized i'm the new moderator... so that's the last contraversail statement you'll hear out of me...

[Bardsley]

Jon Broderick's tactics become clear then... give moderator positions to people making anoise, so that they have to stop being so opinionated, very devious. Just kidding, I'm sure you'll be fine, and I'm sure it's not what he had in mind.

[Lordathestrings]

...being a Moderator doesn't preclude civil discourse.

In plainer words, you are free to express your opinions, and to argue in their defence. The difference is that you are expected to refrain from abusive language, and you have a responsibility to hold others to the same rules.

I would feel deprived if either you or Cristoph were silenced.

[educatedfilm]

Oh i'll still jump in time to time, but i think it i'd be hypocrtical if i edit posts that upset poeple when my oppinions do the same... I'm just being more "careful"
Lordathestrings: Thanks! I didn't think anyone was intrested in hearing what i had to say (didn't stop me from talking though :D)...
( Bardsley : nice idea :)... i think i'd probably be saying the same if i was you...)

[blackrose]

message boards like these are no fun if nobody ever says anything controversial.

[educatedfilm]

Point taken! (it's all Blackrose's fault!)

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I would feel deprived if either you or Cristoph were silenced.

I guess that was sarcasm. LOL.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
How many of you knew that the Saudi governemt is protected by the US from it's own poeple?!!

Of course we knew that. The bottom line is that for the time being we need their oil, and we can't have a bunch of maniacs running around threatening that interest. If the Saudi government was overthrown we'd all have major problems, (Even you, educatedfilm. You wouldn't have a lot of the comforts you have now) so in this case we overlook the atrocities of the Saudis in favor of the greater good. The almighty dollar and the bottom line are the rulers here, and if a few innocents suffer, then it's just too bad. As the great Captain Spock once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Or if you prefer to look at it from a Machiavellian perspective, the powerful have rights over the weak.

A lot of people like to complain about US foreign policy, but what you don't realize is that the alternatives are a lot worse. Yes, we supported Saddam Hussien in the past, during the war with Iran. At the time, Iran was many times worse and far more threatening to the stability of the region than Iraq, so we chose to support him and provide him with weapons. The general aim of US foriegn policy over the years has been to protect US interests and promote regional stability. Generally, for the common good.

Now you can either accept that the world is an imperfect place and that sometimes these plans will backfire, or you can stand around looking at pretty pictures and talk about how the world should be.

How's that for controversial, Backrose?

[Lordathestrings]

..that wasn't sarcasm. Open debate, expressing widely diverse opinions is what keeps us human.

The first good result of this disaster is the way people suddenly were able to discard petty differences, and pull together.

Another one may be the end of such hypocrises as 'Political Correctness'. We might even get people to see how dangerously delusional the 'social engineering' touted by the left really is. I dunno; I live in Canada...That may be too much to hope for.

[Christoph]

Lordathestrings, I agree with you about people coming together. That's one of the good things that's come out of this so far.

I think we have already seen just how dangerous the so-called liberal social conditioning can be. It's now represented by the 7000 or so dead people that we have in New York. It was twenty years of being politically correct and worrying about 'offending' certain people and countries that led up to Sept 11.

Of course there's hope for Canada. There's hope for anywhere that has people who are willing to stand up and use reason to figure things out instead of their feelings. (oh, just think of the children!!!)



I get a kick out of that ridiculous TV show "Politically Incorrect". That show has to be the most poiltically correct things out there.

[educatedfilm]

Christoph: hmmmm.... I think what you've described about american intrests has a name...imperialism.. The fanatics and radicals wouldn't exsist if it weren't for protecting the royal family... I think we can afford to pay a fair price for oil (the present price of oil means that's it's cheaper than spring water!!!!)... The whole thing isn't americas fault, I mean god knows that the Brits/ French and the italians were responsible for drawing "lines in the sand" (look at the borders of the arab countries, they all have straight borders in the middle of the dessert), and giving each country a differnt ruling system which meant that they couldn't unite again (just so you know that I dont blame everything on american foriegn policy, I mean god knows we did more than our fair share of wrongs...).
With this behaviour, you have to relize that when poeple retaliate it's not unprovoked... I relize we'll never live in an ideal world, but there is no harm in being more sensitive, and follow international law as opposed to the law of the jungle...

About that program "politically incorect", did the sponsers threatent to pull out when one of the guests said that the pilots were cowards, and the host guy said something like "hold on!... We fire missiles from 1000 miles away, but someone who stays on the plane till it hits is a coward?... you can call them anythig else, but not cowards" (that's not an quote, It's just roughly what he said)?

[blackrose]

Originally posted by Christoph
Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I would feel deprived if either you or Cristoph were silenced.

I guess that was sarcasm. LOL.


Originally posted by educatedfilm
How many of you knew that the Saudi governemt is protected by the US from it's own poeple?!!

Of course we knew that. The bottom line is that for the time being we need their oil, and we can't have a bunch of maniacs running around threatening that interest. If the Saudi government was overthrown we'd all have major problems, (Even you, educatedfilm. You wouldn't have a lot of the comforts you have now) so in this case we overlook the atrocities of the Saudis in favor of the greater good. The almighty dollar and the bottom line are the rulers here, and if a few innocents suffer, then it's just too bad. As the great Captain Spock once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Or if you prefer to look at it from a Machiavellian perspective, the powerful have rights over the weak.

A lot of people like to complain about US foreign policy, but what you don't realize is that the alternatives are a lot worse. Yes, we supported Saddam Hussien in the past, during the war with Iran. At the time, Iran was many times worse and far more threatening to the stability of the region than Iraq, so we chose to support him and provide him with weapons. The general aim of US foriegn policy over the years has been to protect US interests and promote regional stability. Generally, for the common good.

Now you can either accept that the world is an imperfect place and that sometimes these plans will backfire, or you can stand around looking at pretty pictures and talk about how the world should be.

How's that for controversial, Backrose?

not very. its just flat out the truth.

[Christoph]

Hey, this is no fun if everyone agrees with each other!

Ed, get back in here!

[blackrose]

Heres something I dount everyone will agree with me on...I think that the US is wrong in targeting Osama the way it is without substancial evidence, or really any at all. Anyways you got to admit Osama is crazy enough that he probably would admit to the attack had he done it just to piss Bush off.

[Lordathestrings]

I compared the Western Alliance (jeez, that sounds Orwellian!) to a lynch mob. Not becuase there is no evidence, but because there was no attempt to prove to the Taliban that the evidence was sufficient to warrant Osama's 'extradition'. That is what I meant by refering to having to "talk politely to scumbags" in order to take care of business.

The unhappy reality is, the Taliban would have shrugged it off as 'inconclusive', or something just as dismissive. I think the West in general, and the USA in particular, have finally learned something that Israel has known for a long time. You cannot deal reasonably with people whose hatred has made them unreasonable.

There is no point in trying to negotiate with people whose major goal in life, instilled in them from birth, is to kill you, or die in the attempt.

Such people celebrate the hijackers as heroes, while we mourn the victims of their poison.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Lordathestrings


There is no point in trying to negotiate with people whose major goal in life, instilled in them from birth, is to kill you, or die in the attempt.

I've talked about this subject all week until I was blue in the face, and my original color still hasn't come back yet. All I can say is that for anyone who seriously thinks that we have a chance in reasoning with these terrorists (despite how calm and rational bin Laden seemed in his pre-recorded coments), then you're far behind the eight ball. You can't reason with a serial killer, if you're family is ever kidnapped (God-forbid) you can't expect this cold blooded killer to compromise, or simply find common grounds.

Hate, this is a very strong word, but once someone lets in it into their system it's almost impossible to relinquish. These terrorists hate American's, and everything that our country stands for, and before they rape us of everything that we have, we must take action.


Like I said, I've been talking with types of people pertaining to this subject, because it's basically all that has been on our minds for weeks now. There is a large portion of people that I've come in contact with who merely have no comment on what's going on, (and hey I can't blame them) because for a lot of people it takes a long time for this to hit home. It takes a long time for them to realize that we are war. And that's basically what this is, it has come to war.

At this point in my life, New York, it's definitely heavy on mind. One day, If I decide to raise a family there, I want to show my kids the sites, I want to show them everything that I saw as a youngster, and I want to show them that there are many opportunities for them as long as they put their mind to it. I wouldn't want to have constantly worry that one day, when they go the grocery store that their lives could be threatened!

We elect a president of The United States Of America, not so he has sit back and collect his royalty checks and immediate recognition, he's put in offce to make a difference and to maintain this countries safety at all costs.

Every corner I turn, people look at me with blood shot eyes, and merely ask why now? Why now, after all of this time, we've never done anything to retaliate with the numerous attacks this county has faced. Well, we can't go back, we can only move forward. At this point and time, there is more then enough evidence to find those who were responsible for such acts of violence on Sept 11th, and we can't just hold back and wait for them to strike. It's now or never.

In New York, at this point there are millions of people around the world who no longer feel safe. We have to do whatever it takes to regain that high level of security, and to regain confidence wthin each other, in memory of all of those who suffered and continue to suffer through this tragedy. We can't just hide and forget all about this, bcause the healing process hasn't begun yet. The healing porocess will begin once these creeps are under our control, and once their weapon resources are destroyed.


"The **** has finally hit the fan," what most people don't realize, or want to admit is that for years in foreign countries, people have been planning an attack on America, and it's never going to stop if we continue to look away.

-Joseph

[blackrose]

its just important to remember that returning hate to hatefull people does not solve anything. Only trouble is thats what peoples natural instinct is to do...

[educatedfilm]

I agree with Blackrose... My main point is, I'm intreseted why you all think that the talaban are unreasonable and un-nogotaible poeple? (I've seen nothing in their history to say other wise, in fact they're know for keeping thier word... although they do make alot o' drugs).What do We lose by putting forward evidence and seeing if the talaban keep their word? Why haven't the US and UK gone to the UN with evidence and then taken approprate steps so that's it's all kosher?
The truth of the matter is, SteveP said this before in the "america under attack thread", the fact that Osama Bin Laden being made a scape goat will always look justifiable as he's responsable for the embasy bombings, even though he may be innocent of this, but is it worth going to war with Afganistan?
What worries me most about the fact that Osam Bin Laden has been made a quick fix for our needs to see a culprit, is that the real poeple are still out there!!!
I don't belive Bin Laden is responsible as on the 11th and the few days after wards the military experts were clearly stating he simply wasn't capable of this, then the order must have come from the poeple upstairs, then they all simultanously fell silent as the old propaganda machine started to rev it's engine as it got ready to go, and the news paper went laughing their way to the bank, as Osam Bin Laden was slowly demonised, and then came the bold step that the prime minister made, He said "I believe he's guilty", and now the media is trying to make the Talaban and Al-Ka-eda (arabic for "the base") are one and the same!!!
I hope poeple keep log book/ journals of this, as in years to come the truth will start to come out, but few poeple will care...

[educatedfilm]

By the way, to those of you who remeber the TWA dissaster, you'll remember that a few days after wards the black box was found, and there was a suspision of terrorism, it later turned out not to be... but my point is that the tape was release to the press, the black box for the plane that went into the pentagon has been recovered (a few days after the crash infact), why Hasn't this been release to the press? Even as evidence that the hi-jacker did speak arabic?

[Christoph]

This was part of the old discussion on imperialism. I think it deserves a response . . .

Originally posted by educatedfilm
I think we can afford to pay a fair price for oil (the present price of oil means that's it's cheaper than spring water!!!!)...

I don't know where you buy your water, but I can go down to the supermarket and pick up a gallon of purified spring water for 25 cents. Don't you pay something like 5 pounds for a liter of gas? You think that's a fair price?? The arabs are getting rich off us. They should be thankful that we're over there, because without us, the majority of them would still be living in caves.

Now for the new stuff . . .

Originally posted by Lordathestrings
I think the West in general, and the USA in particular, have finally learned something that Israel has known for a long time. You cannot deal reasonably with people whose hatred has made them unreasonable.

There is no point in trying to negotiate with people whose major goal in life, instilled in them from birth, is to kill you, or die in the attempt.

Lordathestrings for president!

The Taliban issued a statement late last week that said that even if the US could prove that Bin Laden was guilty they would not turn him over. So why bother trying to convince these madmen of his guilt in the first place!!!

Originally posted by educatedfilm
My main point is, I'm intreseted why you all think that the talaban are unreasonable and un-nogotaible poeple?

Turn in your decks of cards and your kites, folks, I'm afraid they're against Islamic law.

Read this -

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/30/wtal30.xml

Then tell me how "reasonable" the Taliban are.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Christoph
I don't know where you buy your water, but I can go down to the supermarket and pick up a gallon of purified spring water for 25 cents. Don't you pay something like 5 pounds for a liter of gas? You think that's a fair price?? The arabs are getting rich off us. They should be thankful that we're over there, because without us, the majority of them would still be living in caves.

History/Geography Class flashback: Mesipotamia: The Cradle of Civilization. That would be modern day Iraq.

Anyway, no there is no compromise with terrorists. I highly doubt any of them will suddenly grow a concious in this life anyway. What we do have to keep in mind that our foregn policy is largely responsible for driving people to terrorism. That means putting more pressure on Israel and Palestine to make real peace. It means finding a way to punish Saddam Hussein for his crimes, but still allow the people of Iraq to eat. And yes, terrorists, sponsors of terrorism, and the like all must be brought to justice.

Simply attacking those we hold responsible today does absolutely no good so long as we do nothing to stop more young men from taking their place.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
History/Geography Class flashback: Mesipotamia: The Cradle of Civilization. That would be modern day Iraq.


What? I'm sure there was supposed to be something really clever about that response.

I assume you're talking about Mesopotamia. Yes . . . it was the cradle of civilization . . . about 5 thousand years ago! But they've been in total squalor for the last 500 years, until we came along.

[blackrose]

[i]
Read this -

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/30/wtal30.xml

Then tell me how "reasonable" the Taliban are.

[/B]

who gives a crap about osama. as long as were bombing afganistan we may as well hit a reasonable target like those bastards.

[howie50]

My feelings in a nutshell are 1)- We should not be waging war on the Afghan people. 2)- We should bring Bin Laden and his henchmen to justice, they should be given a fair trial (it took the Mossad years to catch up with Adolf Eichmann yet they managed to arrest him without spilling innocent blood). 3)- We should try to seek a swift peace deal between Israel and the Palestinian people, this will remove one of Bin Laden's most potent political weapons, such a deal should be fair and enforceable by the UN should either side break any treaties. Finally, it's all going to drag on for years so f*&k it all and play your guitars.

Remember as someone said "War is nature's way of teaching Americans geography".

[blackrose]

Originally posted by howie50
3)- We should try to seek a swift peace deal between Israel and the Palestinian people.

Peace between Isreal and Palestine? Peace in the middle east at all? Impossible. There never will be peace in the middle east or surrounding area as long as there are people there. At all.

[Zeppelin]

Peace in the middle east:
i think we will reach peace in the next few years, because one day someone will find a plan that will be unrejectable
for both sides, or the usa will just grow tired of us, and force us to make peace which will work for some time
anyway, during WWII stalin, roosevelt and the english guy whose name is too complicated to spell, had a meeting where they decided they wont negotiate with hitler and the germans, untill germany surrenders
i think usa should accept this policy about the terror
i was very glad to hear usa declined the taliban's offer to send bin laden to a neutral country to be judged there
because the problem is not bin laden - he is just a single human being, but the problem is that thousands of new bin ladens are growing up right now in the terror countries
and this is the problem the free world should deal with, not just single people who are responsible for the specific act of terror
and when you have a country which government supports the terror, and most of the people in this country support the governemt, like in math it is all very simple: those people are the bad guys and so they should be treated
im not saying usa shall kill all the muslims in all those countries, but since power is the only language they understand thats the language usa should use with them

[educatedfilm]

Christop: hehehe... I'm impressed you know about our high feul prices, last time i checked it was about 79p per liter ($1.14)... This is because most of the price is infact tax!! (the same goes for alcohol!!)
I've bought Spring water 100ml for 28p (40c). it's more than the price of oil in Saudi arabia... I'll try and get you the exact figures for a barrel of oil...
I think it's a bit mean to say they'd be living in caves if it wasn't for us... I mean if you look at what happened in the 70's, where all the arab countries decided to simulatnously stop pumping oil western society nearly stopped and this was only for a breif period, you'll relize we owe them!!! They're making money by an honest means, and they have the chioce at how much they sell, how much they sell it for etc...
I'm very optimistic about peace in the middle east, dispite the recent assasination... There is a chance that the palastinains will be given an independent state (a proper one not some "leapord skin state, which will solve the main problem, but there were still be kashmire like situation about what belongs to who, who stole it when, etc...
Horror stories exist about the talaban as it does with Indonesia, as with China, as with Isreal, as with Saudi Arabia, but the poeple who are responible for these acts dont sit at the nogotaition tables. This is nothing to do with how the Talaban nogotaite... Also the truth maybe a little exagerated, you can clearly see by the language the auther is not neutral (or any where near that)... Another thing is the whole interview is with one person (Hafiz Sadiqulla Hassani), so this is probably and extreme example taken to somehow represent the entire talaban, this is an old trick... If you want to read something neurtal read " the independant" especailly Robert Fisk's articals..
The talaban are no angels, but I get a little upset when we're giving emotivly phrased stories, with one acount, which has been hand picked as being the best story (and so the most extreme). We're not stupid, and we can see what is going on...

[Christoph]

The current (10/17) price of a barrel of crude oil on the international commodities market is $22. Now you're telling me that water is more expensive? Give me a break.

I never said that they (Arab countries) weren't making an honest living. They have every right to sell their oil at whatever price they see fit. The point is that without our money and our technology (the combustion engine), they would never have developed their oil fields in the first place.

We don't owe them anything. As far as I'm concerned, they have no right to hate us. You think things are bad for them now? They were even worse before the foriegn companies showed up with their bags full of money and started developing their sad-ass countries.

As for the article - yes, it is only one point of view and it may be a bit sensationalistic. However, there is always a grain of truth, even in the most skewed reporting.

[Bardsley]

I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this really, but this oil thing disturbs me a bit. Christoph, you assume that people are necessarily better off in developed countries, but in what way? I admit that I like my computer and my electric guitar and my cars, etc, but this is me, and plenty of cultures are quite happy living how they want to live, why should we assume that they would be happier with our technology? The wealth that is created by arab countries through oil goes entirely to the very few wealthy people in high places, the average worker sees nothing of it, so maybe life is good for the Saddams of this world, but not for the rest. Economic sanctions are put on countries like Iraq, that mean that the average person goes without food, do you think that the Government distributes the money evenly? In order for Iraq to satisfy America's "food for oil" deal, to keep at least some people with food, workers are put to death on the oil fields, working until they cannot continue. Meanwhile, the oil fields are being over-farmed (is this the right word? you know what I mean), so tha tin a very short time they will run dry. This is merely to keep their end of the bargain with the US. In order to manufacture enough oil, Iraq makes themselves unable to create agricultural industries and the like, making them unable to become independant from the US; practically all of Iraq's food now comes from overseas. This is a vicious circle, which continues to keep Iraq creating oil at America's bidding. Iraq is now in the position of being totally dependant on foregn countries, who still impose sanctions on them, so they are unable to develop. So, how is this money that they get for oil helping them? Saddam is very rich. So are a couple of others. Yes, that seems fair. I bet the people are really happy for their leaders having the new technology of the combustion engine, so that they can further distinguish the rich from the peasants.

[Lordathestrings]

Originally posted by Bardsley
...Yes, that seems fair. I bet the people are really happy for their leaders having the new technology of the combustion engine, so that they can further distinguish the rich from the peasants.

Now that's sarcasm!

[educatedfilm]

My question is there.. What do we lose by presenting the evidence to the talaban and seeing if they keep their word?

Bardsley has pretty much hit the nail on the head there (although Iraq's economy wasn't really agriculture based... I think)...
I dont think we'de be making internal combustion engines on a large scale, or anything for that matter, any work to do with the economy would be seriously difficult if they hadn't invented modern numbers... In fact i dont think personal computers as we see them now would exists if they hadn't invented algebra...
Do you know how many gallons of Oil there are in a barrel?

IT's not a case of who owe's who right now, the arab world is having political probelms and needs help... The same goes for the far east... Real help, not help just to quickly cash in on the countries' resources...

One last point, I think you'll find the multi-national companies have alot of enemies, because they're not wholly honest, just read up on "SHELL" that nice company wich sells you petrol, they've bribed dictators to basically let them do what they want, as poeple who campaingn against them are hanged... Check for your self..
Read up on NAFTA ( i think that's how you spell it) that came about under Clinton, and see how mexico's poor feel about that...

[Bardsley]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that Iraq wass an agriculturally based country, but rather that they are now unable to move in that direction. If you hear about what Shell have done in Nigeria, you wouldn't think that they were in any way nice guys. Of course, I'm not sure that the actions of a company have much to do with this discussion, but I am now butting out of this debate again, I can't pretend to know much about that part of the world, and I have a feeling that some of the rest of us can't either...

[educatedfilm]

No no no, i didn't mean to say they were nice, I was being sarcastic but that kinda of isn't clear... I was talking about the their dealings in Nigeria, and the hanging of protesters... I brought it up because christoph said it was these multinational companies which bring in money and the arabs should be grateful...

[Christoph]

I've been overrun by liberal "free thinkers" and all my allies are gone.

Educatedfilm, you're totally missing the point. I can buy a barrel of water for cheaper than a barrel of oil! (this is a totally ridiculous discussion, and I don't even remember why we're arguing about it)

As for the rest - history goes in cycles and everything repeats itself. The advances of the ancient Greeks and Arabs were built upon by European scientists of the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution and then finally by the Americans in the early 1900s. Everyone's knowledge is built upon someone else's. So there's really no point in this discussion.

There's one thing that's not going to change. Everybody hates everybody else, and war, strife, hunger, injustice, and poverty will continue. All you people can go on talking about how much you hate the west and how it's our fault, but we can't do anything to help a corrupt people. We can only defend ourselves, our countries, and our way of life.

You can talk all day about the poor and the injustice of western society and the grievances of the arabs, but when Usama comes along he's gunna blow your head off like all the rest. So you might as well just appreciate what you have and leave the policy-making to those in power.

[Joseph]

I understand where you're all coming from, but although we don't quite fully understand the intentions of these culprits, nor do we know how to reason with them, in some ways we're not supposed to know, nor will we ever. The only thing that rings a bell is common evil.

I know how a lot of people feel in a matter such as this, where we shouldn't give up in trying to reason with these terrorists, perhaps find common ground, especially with the intelligence committees we have on board. However, the key word is terrorists, and in that case there is no common ground.

It's merely a suicide mission, "and with their so caled relgion" they feel it's necessarily and definitely worth it to die for their beliefs. They are playing GOD. Peace is not on their agenda, but to simply satisfy their impulses for destruction.

I know the past has told us many stories, and has given us a million reasons to believe that attacking foreign countries until they squeal like pigs is not the answer, however we are running out of choices. We can no longer leave this country we live in at risk. We can't sit back and wait for another level of destruction. Because there might be another level of destruction, even worse than anthrax, and the sad part is we may never quite understand why! And such stagnent ideas, well that makes me count my lucky stars that Al Gore didnt make it all the way. The democrats have partied long enough with our money and our time. It's time to get down to business!




Originally posted by Christoph
All you people can go on talking about how much you hate the west and how it's our fault, but we can't do anything to help a corrupt people. We can only defend ourselves, our countries, and our way of life.


Yes..

[Joseph]

http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/contrib/edoom/guitarist.gif

-Joseph

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Christoph
I've been overrun by liberal "free thinkers" and all my allies are gone.


You can talk all day about the poor and the injustice of western society and the grievances of the arabs, but when Usama comes along he's gunna blow your head off like all the rest. So you might as well just appreciate what you have and leave the policy-making to those in power.




yeah and dont forget bin laden is comming from a very rich family, unlike me and probably others here too.

all those countries blaming the west that they are poor, but those guys didnt develop since the 16 century,im not saying they are bad because they are so called "third world countries" but sure they cant develop when they are busy with blaming the west all the time.... in this case they are just like religious jews who think its wrong to drive cars or to watch movies on saturday. Both of the fanatic groups just cant understand the world has changed since the mohamed days, and since the talmud days, so now in israel because of them everything is closed in saturdays, and i cant eat pork, and in countries like pakistan or afganistan people are not even allowed to play musicial instruments because its against the islam
so why cant they look at the mirror and say "the world has changed since the writing of our law books , maybe we should find a new interpretation to it"?
the answer is simple: they are fanatics, they are here to live like their relegion tells them, and no to think, thats why in my opinion its hard to treat them like human beings no matter what their race/religion is. They are completley brain washed, and they dont even notice they act against their own relegion (islam is against suicide). you cant talk to them, you cant explain anything to them, because they dont think, they just do

[blackrose]

If osama took over Afganistan conditions would probably improve there as long as we didnt bomb the **** out of them.
http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/contrib/edoom/guitarist.gif

Hows that for all you free thinkers out there?

[Raskolnikov]

The problem with extreamists is that they polarize everything. That goes for suicide bombers, religous fanatics of all flavors, and those who are too blinded by fear and anger to think about cause and effect.

Let's try a metaphor:

Somebody punches you in the face... would you just stand there?

Me neither. I'de also like to add that I'm a very slow runner, therefor my response begins with breaking their knee, some intermediary scuffling, then kicking them on the ground for a couple of minutes as a finale.

But what are the chances of that ending there? It really depends. Either the guy will leave me along for fear of another whoopin' or will come back later with friends. My bets are on number two, it's basic human nature to want to get even.

So sure, our cultures and relgeons vary, but deep down inside, we're all the same critter responding to the same instincts. World War One began with the assassination of one world leader, it hasn't ended yet. Am I lost in the 20's? Delusional? Smoking crack in between bass riffs? No.

World War One ended very sloppily. Germany was crushed, morally, economicly, and militarily. The people felt lost and betrayed. Waiting to find somebody to point their fingers at. In steps Adolph Hitler with one hell of a speach a direction for the people to point their fingers.

Now keep in mind that at this point in time virtually all of the Mid East and Africa is under colonial rule. This basicly means that local goods and raw materials are taken from the land, brought back to England or France, processed, sold, and the profits stay with the governing nation. England had learned well from the American Revolution and no longer allows much in the way of local governments. This means no native political infrastructure.

So World War Two breaks out- Japan, disatisfied with their spoils from World War One now sides with the Axis powers. Germany invades nation after nation, and begins the Holocaust. First Ghettos, second camps, finally mass killings. Also, due to it's alegance with Italy, Germany takes over large portions of the Mid East and northern Africa while fighting with the Brittish.

At World War Two's end, millions more people had died, national boundaries have been redrawn again, the cold war has begun, yet more colonies have swapped hands, and now the Zionist movement has greatly increased support from all over the world.

The seeds for most of today's Mid East conflicts are now sewn.

England and other colonial powers suddenly pull out of these nations, leaving power vacumes, depleated resources, and great resentment towards the west in general.

It should also be noted that up until the 60s or so, the US was held in high regard by most Muslim nations: We seemed to be the one western power who "got" them and had never been a colonial power. However, some policy changes that left Arab nations in cold changed that perspective to what it is today.

So where am I going with all of this?

Yes we have to strike back at the people who did this. We MUST defend ourselves and our familes from terrorism. We are facing an evil that is an affront anda discrace to ALL people, yet is partially our creation.

So we strike at the knees to remove our attacker's mobility, we attack their ribs and solarplexus to remove their ability to breath, and we kick them on the ground to make sure they won't get up.

Then we make DAMN sure that his friends see just what an ASSHOLE that guy was being so that they leave us alone, take him home, sober him up, and SLAP HIM AGAIN FOR BEING AN ASSHOLE.

As I have said time and time again, if we do nothing to address the reasons why people turn to terrorism, then we waste every bomb, every speach, and every lost life. 6,000 dead is quite enough for me.

[educatedfilm]

http://www.petroleum.org/petrokids/petroperbbl.htm

heheheh :D... I love it when i'm sooo right, there's 42 gallons of oil in a barrel (1 gallon is 3.78 liters, so there's 42x 3.78 = 158.76 liters, so for $22 you can get 7.21 liters per buck, where you would get about 2 liters of spring water for a dollar)...

Great reply Rask!
At a time like this we need people who can see and think straight... "free thinkers"

[Christoph]

I bet your professors are so proud.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
I love it when i'm sooo right . . .

How can you be right if you don't even know what you're talking about? :p

At the current price, ~$22 a barrel, it's around 52 cents a gallon. As I stated before, I can go down to the supermarket and get a gallon of purified spring water for 25 cents a gallon.

So please stop wasting everyone's time trying to prove your ridiculous metaphor. I said before that the Arab countries have the right to sell their oil for whatever price they see fit, so the issue is our dependence on them. We need to develop our own sources or foster better relations with Mexico and Russia, and we'll be able to tell those middle east bastards where to stick it. Then we'll see how they get along without the west's money.

[Bardsley]

Yeah, ed, much as I agree with a lot of things you have said, I think you may be missing the point by floffing the dead horse of what costs more. I mean, you can pay heaps for a bottle of water in a conveniance store because it has pretty blue plastic, or you can pay nothing for it if you have a rain-water tank, it doesn't really matter anyway. When people start saying things like "I love it when I am sooo ritght, they mgiht be getting a little immature. However, Christoph, don't you think you are being a little callous? If you pick an ordinary person on the street in the middle east, they are just the same as you, possibly with slightly different religous beliefs (though also likely to be remarkably similar), just going about their lives. Do we need to punish them for the government? I thought that was what mr Bin liner did.

[blackrose]

Quite often in history the people and the government of nations are very contrasting factions...for example, the aristocrats and serfs during the french revolution, the Taliban and the Afganistan citizens, the government of Pakistan (which supports us) and the Pakistanian people (which hold flag burning rallies every few days).

[educatedfilm]

I was only being imature cos i though this threat was getting a little heavey...
"How can you be right if you don't even know what you're talking about? " heheheheh....

"We need to develop our own sources or foster better relations with Mexico and Russia, and we'll be able to tell those middle east bastards where to stick it."
Sick of what? What happened to the us pre the 11th of sept that was due to the middle east (when compared to the michigan millitia's truck bomb)? The two biggest reserves of oil in the world are in Saudi arabia and in the "Lybian desert" (i've never understood why it was called that, considering a fair part of it is in Egypt)... Eventaully you're going to have to come back to these...
We can get on with the middle east, i mean america was looked upto by the arab world (as rask said), so why not make freinds, I have arab friends an they're no different to any one else, they've got the nice reasonable people, the loud mouths, the quite poepl, the agressive, the cowardly, the kind, the funny, I mean the whole spectrum...

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Bardsley
Do we need to punish them for the government?

Nobody is 100% innocent, and everyone is at least partially responsible for their government. I'm sure you've heard the old adage - "A people deserve their government."

There are maybe 10,000 Taliban hard-liners, and 50 million Afgans. So few could not have taken over a country without the support of the people, so they are at least partially responsible for everything that has gone on since 1995, including terrorism.

[educatedfilm]

by that logic... the afagans are apartly responsible for the death of 6000 poeple (allegedly)... and the american poeple are partly responsible for the death of 1.5 million iraqi's alone..
You can't blame poeple for thier government... it only takes a few to take power...

[markanewguitarist]

Being a member of Her majesties Royal Marines UK I am not bullet proof and neither is my guitar however i may end up fighting somebody elses war. Which I am not bothered about just glad to help. **** happens. In my oppinion they deserve every bomb and bullet which they are recieving. However fighting for piece is like ****ing for virginity. Religion should be banned. it is the start of all problems. i dont go to church i would rather play my guitar or go fishing. anyway thats enough drivvle from me.
PS if anyone wants to send me a virus dig out i may not be bullet proof but i am virus proof. there is a joke there somwhere. All the best to you all Mark

[Christoph]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
and the american poeple are partly responsible for the death of 1.5 million iraqi's alone..

The only people responsible for the 1.5 million dead Iraqis are Iraqis, and their glorious leader, Saddam. They brought this whole thing on themselves by invading Kuwait. If you want to survive as a nation these days, you need to get out and play ball in the international community, or you'll end up a UN charity case.

[Bardsley]

So, Iraqis are responsible for the deaths of their own civilians, because of angering the US? And the US aren't responsible for the deaths of their civilians because they angered people from afghanistan? So where it is unfair to suggest that America can be blamed for the thousands of deaths from the world trade center bombings, it is perfectly reasonable to blame Iraq for US bombs? Am I being stupid to see a US favoured inconsistency here?

[educatedfilm]

I couldn't have put it better my self... great reply man...

Anyway, something which is rarely mentioned... how many of you know why the gulf war started? I'll tell you, fell free to double check this... Basically Kuwait promised iraq oil fields if they won the war against iran... Kuwait went back on it's word, and suddam tried to take what he was owed by force...

"Religion should be banned. it is the start of all problems. "
Our old freinds the communist in the former USSR tried this...

[Christoph]

Originally posted by Bardsley
So, Iraqis are responsible for the deaths of their own civilians, because of angering the US?

Don't you people ever get tired of hating America and the freedoms that you enjoy because of her? If it wasn't for America you would be speaking Japanese, and Ed would be speaking German right now.

Everybody always wants the good without the bad. You want America to be the world's personal policeman and to help everyone out, but you cry foul whenever anything goes wrong and immediately make it out to be our fault.

As Mark said, sh*t happens! Can't you get that through your head? We try to help people out, and we always end up getting it thown back in our face. Maybe it's time for true Machivellian politics to take over. We can just let the rest of the world go into the crapper and then take what we want through military force and no compensation whatsoever.

[Lordathestrings]

Take a break, folks. Watch a cartoon...

http://www.madblast.com/oska/humor_bin.swf

[Raskolnikov]

Christoph: You're trying to make a very absurd argument. Black and white doesn't exist, it's all shades of grey. Cliche, but true.

Lord: that animation rules!

[Christoph]

It's no more absurd than what everyone else is saying.


Lordatthestrings: I saw that last week at work as it was making its way around the office email. Funny stuff. I was going to post a link to it, but you beat me.


[Edited by Christoph on 10-26-2001 at 12:03 AM]

[educatedfilm]

eh? when america does something wrong we're just expected to keep quite, and just carry on? I'm sorry some of us feel guilty if we do nothing to help those worse off than us, wether they're in this country or not...

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by Christoph
It's no more absurd than what everyone else is saying.

How? You're trying to say what goes for Americans doesn't go for the rest of the world's people. I don't know about you, but that's pretty bogus in my perception of ethics.

[MorseRulez]

Originally posted by Christoph
Originally posted by Bardsley
So, Iraqis are responsible for the deaths of their own civilians, because of angering the US?

Don't you people ever get tired of hating America and the freedoms that you enjoy because of her? If it wasn't for America you would be speaking Japanese, and Ed would be speaking German right now.

Everybody always wants the good without the bad. You want America to be the world's personal policeman and to help everyone out, but you cry foul whenever anything goes wrong and immediately make it out to be our fault.

As Mark said, sh*t happens! Can't you get that through your head? We try to help people out, and we always end up getting it thown back in our face. Maybe it's time for true Machivellian politics to take over. We can just let the rest of the world go into the crapper and then take what we want through military force and no compensation whatsoever.

oh yeah! here lately i been thinking, why don't we just say, "hey, if all you countries hate us so damn bad, we'll leave you be. and when your ass is being kicked by another country, don't come whining to us. we're evil, we're bad! you don't need us devils." sorry, just tired of all the sh*t. it reminds me of being married again! conflict after conflict! lets just divorce ourselves from the "spouses" who hate us.

[skee1]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
eh? when america does something wrong we're just expected to keep quite, and just carry on? I'm sorry some of us feel guilty if we do nothing to help those worse off than us, wether they're in this country or not...
Educatedfilm-Ali (Blank)
How can you say anything about America?
Your Scared to even tell your real name on here?
I have a real name and everybody else has, so whats,
your problem.Unless you think everybody is going,
to think you RIDE A CAMEL?Which really i' would'nt,
care if you did i have nothing against camel rider's.
I know your real name because it was in your e-mail,
to me.
Hey i don't care if you was born in the middle east,
or where ever you was born.
It would'nt matter to me i have nothing against People,
of any country.So whats your problem with useing your real,
name do you hate it or what?
No-body on here is going to respect you less or really,
care if your a German or an Arab ect.
Unless you are a secret agent <-ect haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Your all just guitar player's to me......

Mark
P:S Come on ED tell it i'll support you from what ever,
country your from because i'm a Red White Black and Blue, American.........Peace Brother
I've alwasy have liked the song AHAB THE ARAB,
by Ray Stevens (Really) Peace Ed

[blackrose]

Thats one thing ive noticed about this forum...no matter how off the subject of guitars it gets someone always has the decency to remind us all of who we are.

[educatedfilm]

hehehe... I though sending you an e-mail through hotmail (instead of out look express was a bad idea)...
Yep, my name is Ali.. I was born in Lybia, but i've lived in britian the vast majority of my life (before that, it was poland)... The reason i dont use my real name is because at a time of war like this where anyone from the arab/ eastern world is made to look like flag burning, hate obssesed manaic... So if i use a song title for my name I'm nothing more than an oppinion which poeple will think through, but if they see an arab name it's shrugged off, and isn' taken to be valid..
I have nothing against the average american (god knows.. when we had exchange students from Canton or where ever it was, I was trying to play the peace keeper, cos we had some kids in our school who took REAL offence at the idea of killing for fun, shooting deer etc ,or "harvesting" as the Cantonains called it), I dont like the government policies, and you only have to look at them in depth to see why... I've grown up with part muslim part western values...oh yeah and i speak read and write arabic well... So i can tell you for a fact (first hand) that what christoph has said is wrong...
you only have to look at christophs reply to see that there are alot of missinformed poeple who really want muslims dead....
I hope poeple will still look at the reasoning behind my thinking, instead of saying "oh he's an arab, he just wants to kill us"... I do tend to use alot of evidence in what i say, so my arguments (most of the time) are water tight...

I'm very moved by what you said... I hope there are more poeple like you...

I can quite honestly tell you, I really want peace at the minute, and that the government should take their time, instead of giving in to pressure from the public and bombing the first suspect... oh yeah... I'm an arab, and I dont think that isreal should be destroyed or pushed out to sea, as some poeple would suggest, i would like to see both sides mix, or separate... the end result bieng less deaths and the 2nd class citizens get their rights...

I'm quite well studied in the siences (cos hopefully i'm gonna go to med school to be a doctor), and i can tell you I'm not scared by the whole anthrax thing, you just need some basic knowledge in bacteria to know that it's nowhere near as dangerous as the media wants to make it out to be...

The thing that brings us all together is the fact we're all guitarist, I hope race or idoligy doesn't drive us apart...

[skee1]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
hehehe... I though sending you an e-mail through hotmail (instead of out look express was a bad idea)...
Yep, my name is Ali.. I was born in Lybia, but i've lived in britian the vast majority of my life (before that, it was poland)... The reason i dont use my real name is because at a time of war like this where anyone from the arab/ eastern world is made to look like flag burning, hate obssesed manaic... So if i use a song title for my name I'm nothing more than an oppinion which poeple will think through, but if they see an arab name it's shrugged off, and isn' taken to be valid..
I have nothing against the average american (god knows.. when we had exchange students from Canton or where ever it was, I was trying to play the peace keeper, cos we had some kids in our school who took REAL offence at the idea of killing for fun, shooting deer etc ,or "harvesting" as the Cantonains called it), I dont like the government policies, and you only have to look at them in depth to see why... I've grown up with part muslim part western values...oh yeah and i speak read and write arabic well... So i can tell you for a fact (first hand) that what christoph has said is wrong...
you only have to look at christophs reply to see that there are alot of missinformed poeple who really want muslims dead....
I hope poeple will still look at the reasoning behind my thinking, instead of saying "oh he's an arab, he just wants to kill us"... I do tend to use alot of evidence in what i say, so my arguments (most of the time) are water tight...

I'm very moved by what you said... I hope there are more poeple like you...

I can quite honestly tell you, I really want peace at the minute, and that the government should take their time, instead of giving in to pressure from the public and bombing the first suspect... oh yeah... I'm an arab, and I dont think that isreal should be destroyed or pushed out to sea, as some poeple would suggest, i would like to see both sides mix, or separate... the end result bieng less deaths and the 2nd class citizens get their rights...

I'm quite well studied in the siences (cos hopefully i'm gonna go to med school to be a doctor), and i can tell you I'm not scared by the whole anthrax thing, you just need some basic knowledge in bacteria to know that it's nowhere near as dangerous as the media wants to make it out to be...

The thing that brings us all together is the fact we're all guitarist, I hope race or idoligy doesn't drive us apart...
Ali
You have my full support of being a great guy,
plus a great human being for opening up like you did.
I know you did'nt have too but .Thanks again Man!
Really i welcome any Arab on here i think its great plus,
Guitar-tricks is supposed to have guitarest's from all,
over the world which is great.
Thats one reason why i like guitar-tricks.
You can share your views plus talk guitar with the peoples,
of all countrys and thats the way it should be.
As far as hateing any body in any race where they be,
German,or Arabs ect ect i do not hate any race of people,
in the world.We have bad people and good people.
I don't like the bad people and we have alot of bad,
people in all race's including America.
And you can take this to the bank, race or idoligy will,
never drive us apart.
You are right about the media they always take any,
little thing they can get and make it into a big big thing,
then all the simple minded American's belive the sky,
is falling.They alwasy end up scareing all the older,
Americans also i think its just so they can have,
the top rateings plus make a Dollar more than the,
other networks.Really nobody should ever belive,
everything they hear or see on the news.(I don'nt)
Sadam husain was right when he said we American's,
will be fighting our selfs,by fighting Ben L <-
Because we trained him and taught him.(I agree)
And yes Ben L<-Forgot how to spell it)could be a,
a scape goat.(My Opinion)
I do'nt belive in killing any Animal thats just the,
way i was rasied.As far as killing for sport i do not,
belive in killing Deer,or any animals .
And Charlton Heston can kiss my ass.(NRA Boooo My Opinion) .
Also i do not belive in killing Innocent People plus,
Children of any Country War or no War.(My Opinion).
Also i think we went into Afgan to quick and should,
have had the support of the UN.(Plus more Proof my opinion).
To me i think Old-man Bush should have fought Sadam,
Husain his self.
And his Son should have buckled his six shooters on and,
went after Ben L.(My Opinion)
Really all joking aside i have alwasy liked the song Ahab the Arab and still do.
Well by the old clock on the wall it looks like i'm,
going to have to jump on old Clyde and go do a gig,
tonite.
So hope you have a peaceable nite and God be with you.
Talk later Bro.
P:S Tell your brother i'm going to try to play that,
game he like's plus Diable-2 is getting boring.

Your Friend Mark

[Raskolnikov]

I myself am one gun toting hillbilly that has no use for the NRA. I don't need a fanatical face slapped on my veiws.

[Christoph]

Originally posted by MorseRulez
lets just divorce ourselves from the "spouses" who hate us.

I wish it were that easy.



Mr. Ebrahim, I don't hate Arabs or want all Muslims dead. You've totally misconstrued everything I've said. I have Arab friends, ya know.



On a side note, lemme just say that it's been really cool sharing ideas and getting to know you guys through this message board, even if it does get a little out of hand from time to time.

Peace out.

[Edited by Christoph on 10-28-2001 at 01:28 AM]

[Bardsley]

Oh, this is the bit where the post gets all warm and cuddly...
So, to destroy the atmosphere, I will say this.
All (insert name of country/race/family name of the neighbour who uses water to clean his driveway rather than just fricken sweeping the damn thing, water is precious!) should be rounded up and shown repeat episodes of Everybody loves Raymond, until they change their ways!

[educatedfilm]

...I'm surprised at this.... Yov're really thought this through Skee1... I 'm quite touched that someone has put effort into replying... I've found being honest is the best policy... Cos the truth catches up with you...
Christoph: phew... I'm glad you dont want me dead :D heheheh....
I dont like Bed linnen (ben laden... spelling doesn't really matter it's written phonetically from arabic) or Suddam, but I don't like it when they become excuses for the death of innocent poeple....

I do feel a little a shamed that i couldn't just be open about the fact that i'm an arab... still, you know now.. Hope this doesn't change me in your oppinion...
Don't worry about "outing" me Skee1 (mark)...
You'll love baulder's gate.... takes some patients though...
:) :) :)

[skee1]

Good have to have you back ed!

Now you guys can get back to the debates then i can learn,
something by reading them...............

I'm playing my game i just finished putting video plus,
a sound file on my page so i'm done for the day .

(Game time)

cya guys
Mark the Camel

[Lordathestrings]

.. now that we're all squared away on who we are, and we're all happy with that, I'd like to get some opinions on this...

Earlier on in this thread, someone raised an issue that I think should have been given a lot closer examination.

1) A lot of the people who rant, rave, and burn flags, are acting on what they've been told by authority figures. Such people are vulnerable to manipulation, because they can't examine the facts for themselves, either because they can't read, and/or societal conditioning forbids it.

2) If you were to ask a Shia muslim "Who reveals the will of Allah to you?", the reply would probably indicate a mullah does so. If you asked the same queston of a Sunni muslim, I think the reply would be something to the effect that each of the faithful must listen to their heart, so that they might hear for themselves what Allah choses to reveal. It would be major self-agrandisement, maybe even an insult to The Divine One, to presume to tell anyone what the Will of Allah is.

3) The Gutenburg Bible marked a major turning point in the course of Christianity. Previously, the only copies of the Bible were laboriously hand-copied, in Latin, by monks who dedicated their lives to this task, in service of God. With the invention of the printing press, suddenly copies of the Bible became widely available, in the language of the people. The Bible was used as a textbook to teach people to read. No longer was the Bible the exclusive property of the clergy! People could now read the texts for themselves, and draw their own conclusions as to what it meant. This led to the split of Christendom into those who accepted the word of the clergy as the revealed Word of God, and those who believed that God is revealed to each individual in their own way. It would be major self-agrandisement, maybe even an insult to The Almighty, to presume to tell anyone what the Will of God is.

(...pull the pin...casually toss grenade over shoulder while strolling out of the room...)

So... are the Shia and the Roman Catholics labouring under severe delusion? Are the Sunni and the Protestants only different in the name they give to their Divinity?

Discuss among yourselves.

[blackrose]

Heres a thought for all of you people that think you understand religion...what would you say to someone who said that the roman catholic religion and christianity were different religions and that all the catholics were following the pope to hell? Because there are people who think like that and even believe that the pope is the antichrist on the belief that anti- means "in replacement of what is true" as it does mean in some languages. (Ever hear of antipasto?...Yeah, like that). So what would you say to someone who laughs at the hypocracy of a people who confess their sins to fellow man yet fail to produce an excuse or apology for the crusades and inquisition? Or someone who can prove that much of the catholic religion and tradition is directly passed down from babalon? What would you say?

[Lordathestrings]

...that the world situation recently became an acute (crisis) version of misunderstandings that have been simmering for many, many generations.

If we, (I mean all of us), are going to resolve the conflict in any meaningful, lasting way, we will have to take a close look at the basis for a lot of the things we have taken as self-evident Truth. If we want to learn, we gotta put it all on the table, and risk releasing bad smells as we poke around in it.

More directly to your post, blackrose, the English laguage didn't get where it is by being pure. Its an almalgamation of Angleish, Frankish, Saxon, Latin, Greek, and bits of any other language that English-speakers have ever encountered in their travels.

Christianity has developed in similar ways. Many of the Holy days, including Christmas itself, are celebrated on days that were part of the Pagan calendar of, shall we say, 'special events'. I don't think that indicates falsehood on the part of those who designated when Christian celebrations should occur. It probably came down to pragmatic decisions based on trying to make it easier for new converts to remember the dates. The important thing was that the celebrations should occur, and that the participants should understand the meanings attached to the rituals. I suspect a lot of the trouble we face today stems from obsessive preservation of the rituals, at the cost of losing a clear understanding of the meanings.

I'd be very intersted to hear from our Muslim members if the division of Islam into sects like the Sunni and Shia (sp?) came about as a result of the availability of the Qu'ran to 'the masses'. I'd like to know if that parallels the Catholic/Protestant split in Christianity.

I was deliberately provacative in my last post... no apologies offered or asked for. We are in what the Chinese refer to as 'interesting times'. It might be useful for us to adopt some of their perspective on the passage of time. After all, they consider the American Revolution to be an ongoing experiment that may yet provide some useful information. They also seem to think that the French show some promise in the culinary arts. :rolleyes: In time, perhaps.

So, yeah, jump on in and mix it up. We are musicians. We are direct descendants of a proud Minstrel heritage. Ours used to be the segment of the population that was looked to for the latest news, interpretations of current events, and ways by which to express the hopes, fears, and spiritual complexity that is humankind. (And you guys thought you were just jammin' :D )

This thread does belong here. We should thank Joseph for starting us on this path. In this age of worldwide communication, we have oportunities to debate issues from a huge diversity of points of view. Dream BIG. This Forum, and others like it, may well be our best hope for a world peace that is decided by 'common' ground-level people, not just politicians and professional warriors.



[Edited by Lordathestrings on 10-29-2001 at 03:14 PM]

[educatedfilm]

um.... I don't know where to start...
If you look carefully you'll relise religion is a factor, and not really a cause... Poverty and political oppresion are also other factors, and the media also plays a huge role...
I'm a Sunni (pronouned Soon-knee, not sun-ny), and the big difference between the bile /tora and the koran is that the koran is MEMORISED... a muslim who knows the whole koran off by heart is not a rare or unsual occurance... At difficult time you can turn to religion, and the koran gives very clear instructions, but how certain poeple choose to interpret them is a very different matter... Also you can turn to good ol' logic... I dont really want to go into religion as it's all far too oppionated... but there's still not as big a difference between Sunni and Shia as there is between catholic/ prodestant...
Oh yeah, Islam does not forbid music, and there is nothing to say this, It's just certain groups feel the "message" carried by this media is not suitable...
If you thought there were similarities between prodestants and Sunnis, have a look at the MASSIVE parralels between judiasim and islam... Hebrew and arabic are paractically sister langauges... I was really surprised...

[Raskolnikov]

I think geogrophy plays a huge role here. The land does a wonderful job of separating human populations and bending us to fit it's challenges.

Think of range wars here folks: One is apt to think that they're as entitled to a spring as the man who's land it happens to be on.

It's also harder to sympathise with somebody the other side of the ocean; we all have our problems afterall, and damnit, the kids are gonna miss the bus! Where are my keys?

People create all kinds of stresses and we like to blame them on other people.

[Lordathestrings]

I see your point, Raskolnikov, but I think your focus is off a bit. I don't for a minute believe that six people were trained and prepared for the suicide attacks on 11 September, {side note: only six of the 19 identified terrorists left some form of 'goodbye'. Its reasonable to conclude that the rest were duped into thinking they were participating in a 'normal' hijacking!}, by the massive network the task required, over some percieved lack of sympathy.

This is a serious 'grudge match', and the players aren't people whose major stressors are lost keys, or kids missing the bus. There are grievances at issue here that run deep, and formed over a period of decades.

[Lordathestrings]

I would expect two cultures that can be traced more or less continuously, back to Mesopotamia, to share a lot of linguistic links. Both cultures seem to have sucessfully resisted 'contamination' by Roman influence, for instance. This demonstrates a very strong sense of identity, something sorely lacking in Western cultures.

Our entire modern technological list of achievemnts can be traced back to Arab mathematicians. Without the introduction of such concepts as assigning orders of magnitude to numerical position, and using '0' as a place-holder, we'd still be using knotted strings to count our livestock.

A strange irony is that a sick, twisted, genius like Saddam Hussein now rules in what history tells us was "The Cradle of Civilisation".

I digress...frequently...

[educatedfilm]

hmmmmm.... Your pretty much right about the arabs and jews having same ancestory...
What i'm worried about at the minute is that the "evidence" hasn't been released to the public, that includes things like Black boxes where there is no threat to the sources, and the fact that there was a letter and a passport found which were clearly plants... I really want to know who did it, but i fear that it will get covered up as the FBI dont want to look like morons....

[Lordathestrings]

The FBI is a strange, idiot/savant organisation, populated by character types ranging from 'quirky genius' to 'cover-your-ass' bureaucrats. It is wise to approach their press releases with a certain amount of scepticism.

I have regular contact with people who work in the testing and regulatory aspects of the civilian and military aviation industry. Without being told as much by anyone, I feel pretty sure in stating that there are legitimate reasons for not publicly releasing the contents of the Flight Data Recorder, and the ****pit Voice Recorder that were recovered from the Pentagon crash site.

Both uniits were severely damaged in the crash, and the subsequent fire. The scraps of information that can be retrieved from them really wouldn't serve any purpose for the general public. The recorders from the fourth aircraft (that crashed in the field), are still being analysed. Bits of information have been released, like a brief summary of the coercion being applied to the pilots just before the flight changed course.

Again, other than satisfying a certain morbid curiosity, there is no purpose to be served by playing the tapes on prime-time TV. This stuff carries an extremely heavy emotional loading. I really don't think we want to see the kind of 'foaming-at-the-mouth' screams for immediate vengeance that would result. There is a lot of anger. Without a specific place to focus that energy, the results could be as destructive as the damage already inflicted.

This is not the usual cops-and-robbers stuff. This is an international head-game where psychological warfare is at least as important as military action. The Americans risk erosion of public support by not being entirely open, but they have been making their case to various world leaders as they are approached for support. Its a judgement call, and a lot of the information that goes into the decision-making is only available on a need-to-know basis.

Some bits of the puzzle for you to ponder:

-The attacks of 11 September required many years of planning, training, and financial preparation. Such activities leave 'footprints', however faint they may be.

-A large number of people were, and are, involved. Most of these are still active. These are dedicated, motivated, people with considerable skill and ability.

-They live, and work, among us.

-The members of these interconnected networks view themselves as soldiers. They are at war. Some of them have been active since the planning of the overthrow of the Shah of Iran, and the destruction of the corrupt Pelavi family.

-Publicly proclaiming the discovery of each new piece of evidence serves to warn the subjects of any investigation, and makes further dicovery more difficult.

-None of this will be resolved in time for the weekend. :rolleyes:

[PonyOne]

OK, I've tried to stay clear of this, but why not jump in...

I've noticed a few odd things about the investigation of the 9/11 attacks. First off, a few days after the crashes, the FBI announced that they'd found the black box to the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, but that the voice recorder was inconclusive, either that it hadn't been on, or that the tape had been erased in the crash (it happens).
The next day there are four heroes; one in particular, whose emotionless wife appears on TV and talks in a totally neutral context about him all the time. How was this known? The only transmission from the ****pit in regards to the hijacking was a brief altercation and smethig to the effect of "coorperate and you won't be hurt" before it was switched off.
Cell phone calls made mention of a group of guys trying to storm the ****pit.

But if there were no vocal communications whatsoever, how do we know that these four men, who were specifically named and identified, actually did anything at all?

In addition, I recall as I listened to the live broadcasts on 9/11, they were talking about a fourth plane in the air that was being engaged by F/A-18D Hornets. There was no mention given to those Hornets after that hour stretch when the plane went missing.
A few days later, there was a blurb on CNN about how there was a large chunk of the airliner found five miles from the crash site.

The implications are clear, to me at least. Think: if a plane rams the ground at the angle at which the FBI said it did, the wreckage is going to stay in pretty much the same area; certainly within five miles, especially when there are trees all around. Everyone who was at the scene said that there wasn't any debris bigger than a phonebook or so in size; so how would this chunk of the plane end up five miles away?
If a missile hit the plane five miles from the crash site, the debris from that missile's strike would stay in the general area of where the plane was hit (granting forward momentum and the fact that the chunk would probably not have much aerodynamic stability, it'd probably end up travelling maybe a mile tops). The ariliner was probably travelling at 400-500mph, which gives it enough momentum that it'd still travel a distance, even missing parts. Airliners are very fragile aircraft; a single bullet that strikes a window or goes through the skin while it's in flight could deprssurize the cabin and then it's curtains.

To woo the public as well as the families of those aboard, perhaps those who were talking to their loved ones as said missile hits airliner, you select four men from the plane who interacted with their families before it crashed.
A fat check and implanted stories about how your husband was a national hero later, nobody's paying attention to that big chunk that got spoken of once on CNN, or those F-18's that they sent out on the 11th.

My opinion on the matter? If the government shot the plane down en route to a destination for attack, then I think that they were justified. Those people would have died anyway, so what's the point in making an additional person, let alone a potential thousand or more, die as well?

Regardless of whether or not this was done by Arabs or Muslims, we m ay very well know now or in the future, but I doubt that everyone will be satisfied with the answer.
One of my close friends is a Sunni from Egypt, and though he says "if it was an Arab who plotted these attacks, if Bin Laden was behind it, then kill him," he, like many other Arabs, will probably never be satisfied with the possibility of a muslim doing it. He was visiting his family in Egypt when the attacks happened and said that people were horrified, at least in Alexandria, where he is from, and that the media there was saying it was Israel's doing.

Personally, I don't give a crap whether or not Bin Laden is responsible, I've been all for doing SOMETHING about him for years. Go ahead, bomb the hell out of the oppressive Taliban, then find him and shoot him through the head. As long as it gets him out. Most of the Afghani people were okay with him when he first came to power in '96, but quickly adjusted their opinions after he banned music and passed all the anti-woman laws.
I worked with a girl who was a refugee from Afghanistan in 1999 whose family had fled and managed to save up to get over here. Her best friend, who was, like her, 13 in 1998 when this happened, was shot by a taliban member because a boy from their neighborhood yanked off her headscarf. He saw her when she ran after him trying to get it back. I don't care what anyone says about cultural right or wrong; I'm sure that the father of that girl was overjoyed that his family's honor had been saved by a 7.62mm bullet going through his daughter. Nobody wants to live in that way.

I'm more concerned about after this is over. We're basically prepping the Northern Alliance to take over for the Taliban, but they're not much better; they're the remnants of the oppressive regime that the taliban replaced. The US won't occupy Afghanistan; it's neither cost effecive nor politically correct. The UN won't do it either.
So what will probably happen is we'll kick their ass, leave drop some weapons and a few bucks, maybe some tractors and seeds, for the new government, then leave. The Northern Alliance's factions will return to infighting (BTW, for those who don't know, factions in the northern alliance have ben known to kill off other factions within the Alliance to gain ammo and weapons), whoever the top dog is will be free to impose his rule, and twenty years from now, it'll be this runaround again.

Oh and for the record, I'm a Conservative Jew.

[Zeppelin]

Originally posted by PonyOne


Regardless of whether or not this was done by Arabs or Muslims, we m ay very well know now or in the future, but I doubt that everyone will be satisfied with the answer.
One of my close friends is a Sunni from Egypt, and though he says "if it was an Arab who plotted these attacks, if Bin Laden was behind it, then kill him," he, like many other Arabs, will probably never be satisfied with the possibility of a muslim doing it. He was visiting his family in Egypt when the attacks happened and said that people were horrified, at least in Alexandria, where he is from, and that the media there was saying it was Israel's doing.




sometimes its very funny to discover that some muslims cant even imagine that another muslim is a terrorist
like they never heard about people like hizballah and others.
Anyway i think we are getting closer to our (israel's) final war, i dont know how to explain it but there is a war feeling everywhere, but hopefuly we will survive it somehow, although the usa is not supporting us that much anymore

[educatedfilm]

Isreal at the minute is a source of worry to me at the minute... You'd think that the US government would take this as chance to drop cash and weapons into isreal and give a licence to kill... but that's not happened, Infact there seems to be a "we need arabs for oil... What do we need isreal for?" mentality at the minute, and i can pretty much garantee that as soon as congress steps out from behind bush, they'll lynch him, or brand him an anti-semite (which is as good as)... What they do after that is extremely worrying...
Pony one, yep... I pretty much agree with what you've said, but i think you do need to relize that one arab freind doesn't really represent all of 'em... I mean I believe it was either a so called muslim, some Japanees guys, or some cult members...The media there is as skewed as it is here, except here you've had it repeated again and again and again, but you only hear the forign media once or twice... I think what the egyptain media is saying is what a lot of popele on the net are saying is that it was a bit suspicious that 400 jews (or whatever it was) didn't turn upto work, and that somebody rang up the Israelis and give a warning 2 hours before hand, and as far as i know both are true but they dont really mean anything....
For the record. I'm five foot Seven with black hair....heheheh

[skee1]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Isreal at the minute is a source of worry to me at the minute... You'd think that the US government would take this as chance to drop cash and weapons into isreal and give a licence to kill... but that's not happened, Infact there seems to be a "we need arabs for oil... What do we need isreal for?" mentality at the minute, and i can pretty much garantee that as soon as congress steps out from behind bush, they'll lynch him, or brand him an anti-semite (which is as good as)... What they do after that is extremely worrying...
Pony one, yep... I pretty much agree with what you've said, but i think you do need to relize that one arab freind doesn't really represent all of 'em... I mean I believe it was either a so called muslim, some Japanees guys, or some cult members...The media there is as skewed as it is here, except here you've had it repeated again and again and again, but you only hear the forign media once or twice... I think what the egyptain media is saying is what a lot of popele on the net are saying is that it was a bit suspicious that 400 jews (or whatever it was) didn't turn upto work, and that somebody rang up the Israelis and give a warning 2 hours before hand, and as far as i know both are true but they dont really mean anything....
For the record. I'm five foot Seven with black hair....heheheh
ED
We know for a fact here in American that 90% of all the,
Arabs hate America.
Thats why were against all Arab Countrys.(Leader's)
And thats why were going after BEN Boy plus all the ,
Talaban.
The Talaban are useing thier fellow Agans as Sheilds to,
hide thier tanks and thier self behind thier people,
so they can yell about killing thier people to stir up,
the rest of the arab countrys so they will help them,
fight us.Because they know for a fact that we are to,
powerful and we will destroy them the talaban.
Where is the oil i did'nt know they had any IN AFGAN?
All they got is (DOPE TO SELL IN AMERICA and we will,
crush that too.
I have no worry about israel getting help from us.
America will alwasy take up for Israel.
Were do you think israel's modern Weapon's came from,
They came from America.
85% of Americans would like Saudie Arabia to go down.
your right the only thing thats stoping America in,
taking them out is OIL.(for now)
But if they keep on burning flags and celabrating in thier,
street's about the twin towers.Oil or no oil i know,
from history we will take them out then take thier oil,
from them then send them out on Camel's.
Like when we give the indians some beads then stole ,
thier land.Another thing israel's leader's are big boys,
now thier not little kids they can handle thier self.
Plus we will help them if they can't we alwasy have.
Israel needs to just hang in there a while right,
now because America has to take care of the arab's in,
Afgan plus get Ben on the run so we can kill his ass,plus the talaban leader's.Then go after Saudam husain,
plus,and who ever else wants a peice,
of us.Another thing thing the Talaban don't fight like,
an Army because they don't have an army they fight like,
street gangs they hide behind house's and in allys ,
plus hide behind women and children in the dark and fight like the cowards they are.
And another thing the holy month is not going to mean,
sh## to America we will not stop bombing just for a,
Arab holy month or what ever it is.........ect
There was a survey taken and the American people do not want the bombing to stop for some holy day or what ever it is we don't care about this is WAR!
Mark




[Edited by skee1 on 10-30-2001 at 07:29 PM]

[MorseRulez]

skee1, i'm applauding! you rule!

[Raskolnikov]

A few hundred to a couple of thousand people protesting in a city of millions = popular sentiment?

C'mon.

And the message those protesters are generally trying to make is being overlooked: They're not protesting America or Americans, but US Policy. One seven foot tall, obviously American NPR reporter commented on walking around in the protests: Warm handshakes and greetings from people holding "DEATH TO AMERICA" signs.

What we do face is a small group of people who've allowed their hate to foam over and give them the imagined moral authority to kill. It's not the first time in history it's happened, and it won't be the last.

We have to realize that we're fighting a war of perception as much as anything. People are quick to forget that one of President Bush's top advisors is Afghani by birth. Much of our new policy towards Afghanistan is based on papers he's written and coures of action he's endorsed for years. Along the same lines, it should be pointed out that in Kosovo we stepped in to protect Muslims. Yet, if the vast majority of the world can't look at our actions and say "yes, that's justifiable" then we're wasting our time. We're also wasting our time if we don't take a good hard look at our foregn policy. People talk about isolationism too, but those of us who payed attention in American History remember that didn't work either.

Israel? Well, here's my solution, but nobody will go for it... it's too simple. Israelistine. It's a shame that people allow the actions of men who died hundreds and thousands of years ago to justify attrosites today. This goes for both sides. I will now partake in a rare (for me anyway) Pantera quote:

From No Good (Attack the Radical)

"Live in the past
We make it last"

(and now the chorus)

"So low behold my eyes,
this land of fools will rise
You're no good, for no one"

Sure, the song is about racism in the US, but it's theme applies here: Extreamists polarize issues and resist compromise, thereby destroying the fruits of compromise for everybody else.

As far as oil is concerned, the sooner we move away from it, the better for all... outside of the oil business.

[Christoph]

I wasn't going to participate in this insane thread anymore, but now that Skee has opened up his can of whoop-ass, I just have to say something. "You rule, dude!"

Here's an interesting fact which you may not know (educatedfilm will of course dismiss it as nonsense) - ever since the US strikes began in Afganistan, moslems from all around the world have been flocking to the Taliban, trying to get into the country to help fight the holy war against America. They've been coming from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and even Great Britan. There were so many people leaving from Yemen that the government had to set up military checkpoints to stop the flow of people.

So they want a piece of this?? Blast them all to hell!!

Viva America.

Viva Israel.

Viva la libertad!

[PonyOne]

OK, first off, educatedfilm, where do you live? i haven't heard of this lack of 400 jews at work yet. perhaps it was because many of the people at the WTC didn't show up to work until 10 or 11am or even noon? how many muslims and christians and aetheist businessmen didn't show up?

I watch the US media but take it with a grain of salt. fortunately I have satellite TV and get the BBC, as well as a few German, French, Israeli, Saudi, and other news organizations, as well as translated subtitles. Granted, what gets said at the bottom of the TV is all up to whoever is typing at the moment.

But that's how it is everywhere.

I know that my friend doesn't represent every Muslim...but look at how you hint at a jewish conspiracy.

How come i'm not in on any of this? I knew people who died who were good Jews, also happened to be wealthy and productive, who told them to get out?

Everyone has the capability to be a racist, bigoted, hateful person, regardless of what they are, who they pray to and how they do that, and all that. More than anything else i think that we're seeing the clashing of a few different cultures around the world.

I hear a lot of Europeans who complain about America's foreign policy, how we're all inbred morons with guns, etc. I don't think I can stress how angry it makes me when someone from a colonialist nation who made nations like Afghnaistan screwy as well as screwed over Africa and are doing far less than the US to help anyone point their finger from their high horse and go "shame, you bastard child."
People, wherever they're from, seem to think that you watch a few shows on TV, read a couple books and take a two week guided tour of a nation that you're now an expert on that nation. Wrong. Europeans and Asians and Middle Easterners who go to 5th Avenue or Sunset Strip or Waikiki, jaunter around expensive boutiques and restaurants and take pictures from a bus are NOT at all in the know, so to speak.
When I was in Europe, I went street-level: I got off my plane and bummed around London, then took the chunnel to Paris, and the Eurail to Berlin and then down to Rome. I stayed at average-level hotels, walked around the ghettos and talked to people, jammed with street musicians, drew pictures for kids, and chilled at local bars and nightclubs. Most people were shocked at the fact I was nice, didn't speak like Elvis or Danny DeVito, and was more curious than critical. Sadly, most seemed to take a "he's one of the nice one" attitudes rather than a "maybe they're not all bad" attitude.

I am sick and tired of everyone in the world thinking that their way is the right way. Mybe I can think of a solution but right now, I'm sleeping. Night.

For the record I'm 6'1, 225 lbs, and have blond hair and blue eyes.

[skee1]

Way to go Chris
Thats what i heard also and it sure as hell was not just a,
few people in the streets doing the celebrating ,
my info did not come from a cnn news media guy it ,
came from somebody that was there after the twin tower's,
crash's. And the whole dam city had cook outs that nite,
celebrating the death's at ground zero.
One dam thing i'm glad of is the Mayor of NYC sure,
told that arab ass-hole with the dark glass's where to,
stick that 10 million where the sun don't shine.

(Get em on the Run) Right now as i'm typing thier,
blowing them away, Death to Ben Target and,
The Taleban.(May he die a thousand death's.


Mark
P:S I forgot to mention my wife works with,
an Afgan that came over here on dope money.
Plus she said your not going to make it out,
of Afgan by selling Rugs.................
And right now the rugs are not selling.
Also i forgot to mention the lady from ,
Afgan works at (Purdue University) with my Wife.
She got out a little after old Ben target ,
started his little go get America Army.
and it cost big bucks to cross 2 countrys ,
just to get out of there if you don;t get,
killed trying to get out of there.
Chris talking about whoop ass i do like the great,
Roy D Mercer the great whoop ass phone caller,
from oklahoma thats were i learned Guitar from,
the Okies they had some great guitar players out,
there in the the early 60s around the pan-handle.

[Edited by skee1 on 10-31-2001 at 02:59 AM]

[Zeppelin]

Ed: about those israels that didnt show up at their work on that day:
there were israelis in the wtc, some of them called home while they were under the collapsed building
even if the mosad did know about the things that would happen, im pretty sure the FBI and the american intelligence were warned by the it.

[PonyOne]

Agreed. Really, what would any israeli have to gain by doing this? Not much. Plus if you look at Israeli policy and mindset, it's basically a zero-tolerance policy against losing Israeli citizens and Jews in general.

Look at many arab nations though, which look upon their people as cannon fodder.

[PonyOne]

Sorry to double post but I went back a page and read a message in regards to Guliani turning down the 10 million contribution from the Saudis.
The Saudis are another group that's really good at saying one thing then doing another, possibly even more so than my native US. They are very buddy-buddy with us, and love to be friends with us in the international media, but their media back home decries us as the worst scum on the Earth.
Muslim nations have a really bad habit of doing this. Iran, Egypt, Kuwait, Yemen, and every other nation in that region all do it. They love getting our aid and oil money and the security of having the world's most powerful military behind them, but it would seem as though they inherently hate us.

I think a lot of it is the clashing of two very different cultures. You've got the West, which is forward looking to a fault, and is willing to do any action to try and attain that future more immedeately. Then you've got these arab nations which are very much stuck in a feudal way of life. They refuse to lose old traditions and there really isn't anything wrong w/that, I mean, hell, I'm Jewish, so i'm not one to talk about old traditions.
But for some reason, it seems much of the arab world views a step forward as a step away from God, and a slap to the face of their religion. True, a lot of Western civilization gives you a lot of ways to be a gluttonous aetheist. But so what, look at who runs Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. If you're really a good muslim it shouldn't be that big a deal.

[skee1]

Hey Guys

What's the meaning of the word Islam?

Man i know but i think my minds going can;t remember!

Mark

[blackrose]

Originally posted by Raskolnikov

"Live in the past
We make it last"


fight the future.

[educatedfilm]

<sigh>... right take a deep breath, and slow down poeple, I'm getting swarmed:
1- "... I think what the egyptain media is saying is what a lot of popele on the net are saying is that it was a bit suspicious that 400 jews (or whatever it was) didn't turn upto work, and that somebody rang up the Israelis and give a warning 2 hours before hand, and as far as i know both are true but they dont really mean anything.... "
We've got our wires crossed here....I'm not implying that jews are somehow part of a consperisy, and i honestly didn't think that mossad even knew about it, I mean there's an absoloutly rediculous number of phone calls made clamming to be "warnings", infact i said that these facts dont really mean anything on thier own, and i'm showing you how taking selected facts should really constitute lying... both sides of the media are guilty of it...
2-"Another thing thing the Talaban don't fight like,
an Army because they don't have an army they fight like,
street gangs they hide behind house's and in allys ,
plus hide behind women and children in the dark and fight like the cowards they are."
SKee1 there's a name for fighting like this... It's called guerilla warefare, and they fight like this because they've only got the left over weapons from the russians...There is an embarassing asymetry between the two sides... and have a look at the reports of the first "meetins" with the talaban soldiers... thos crazy mothers fought back like maniacs..
You can call them barbarains, butchers, murderers etc, but i dont think that someone who fights with the porpouse of dying a coward... oh yeah the afagans aren't arabs, so please stop calling them that... the only reason i say this, is because the word arab has almost become a swear word used on the enemy...
3- "Look at many arab nations though, which look upon their people as cannon fodder."
name one arab country with a democratically elect government!!!... This is the reason why arabs are complaining of their own leaders and governments..
4- Flag burning is now assocaited with arabs, even though you see and know full well that it's happening if pakistan, and at the start in Indonesia .. the pakistani's aren't arabs, they speak a different langauge (URDU) and have a very different culture... The indonesians are not arabs either...
5- The definition of a muslim is someone who belives in one god, and gives thier purpouse to god... which basically means you go about you're daily life as normal, but you dont put in any other gods or give god kids... This actaully means that Jews are muslim too, but this definition is pretty loose, the modern muslim is basically some one who belives in god (traditionally called Allah, which is just the arab word for god), takes the koran to be the word of god, prays five times a day etc etc... But i think the main point is that you say, fully believing, "there is only one god, and mohammed is his prophet", and then you just take bath, which is kinda like being baptised, but you do it yer sel'. Voila! One instant muslim...
6-" They are very buddy-buddy with us, and love to be friends with us in the international media, but their media back home decries us as the worst scum on the Earth.
Muslim nations have a really bad habit of doing this. Iran, Egypt, Kuwait, Yemen, and every other nation in that region all do it"
EXACTLY!!! I've said this before... The saudis are nice to the US cos they basically have a pact where if the royal family is overthrown by thier suppressed masses they're put back in power by the US military. THIS IS OFFICAIL... why do you think the US get's oil cheap... Me and chritoph have already discussed this...
7-"But for some reason, it seems much of the arab world views a step forward as a step away from God, and a slap to the face of their religion. "
Eh? what are you talking about? Look at Libyia, during the oil boom during the seventies, they grabbed the first chance to "modernise", and have a look at Omman... Infact where do you think the steroetype of the rich arab sheik driving BMWs (or any other fast german cars) comes from?
They do worry about "western" morals though... things like premarital Se x, teenage pregnances, the selfishness of "individuality", the "death" of the family etc etc etc... which is kinda fair...
8- Again agree with Raskilnikov... in fact pretty much with everything... The messages are English (instead of the local language) for a reason, they're orchastraited for the media, and they're lapping it up...
Sorry to make such a lengthy reply, but I'm having to reply to so many replys...
For the record I look like a really big tough bouncer... but far away...<no joke>.... I also wear sixties style librarains glasses, and I'm 80kilos (about 160 pounds)...
why did i start this? oh well...

[skee1]

Yo ED

I know about the Aafgans being Aafgans!
The arabs i was talking about were (Ben boy and the,
Saudies he has with him.....................
And i do know about the left over tanks thier useing.
Anyway this dabate i think should quit and really thats,
all it was a debate!
I was just venting.
I'll talk with you on some other subject mainly guitar's!
This is my last post on this subject.

Peace Mark
Cya later