Modes from a different view

[dvenetian]

When most of us are introduced to the 7 modes that relate to the 7 tones of the Major scale, we memorize the name and scale pattern of each mode by the order in which they follow the root note of the Major scale.
1st (root) Ionian mode, 2nd Dorian mode, 3rd Phrygian mode, 4th Lydian mode, 5th Mixolydian mode, 6th Aeolian mode (Natural minor) and 7th Locrian mode. Many studies use the G Major scale as an example because the patterns can be started and completed on all strings until they repeat again at the 15th fret. Most studies include the key signature and the connection each degree has to it's mode. Example: G Major- Am- Bm- C Major- D Major- Em- F#dim (some classify the diminished degree as minor, some say it's neither Major nor minor). So the modes follow suit, G Ionian, A Dorian (minor mode), B Phrygian (minor), C lydian (Major), etc.....
The modes use all of the same notes as the Major (Ionian) scale, they just start their pattern with a different note, so what's the big deal??
Many players never grasp the concept of incorporating Modal Theory with their style because they view the mode only to the Parent Diatonic scale, not as it's own tonal center and surround it with notes that relate to it.

[Jolly McJollyson]

Some references to support this definition of modes:

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~whitt/bass/modes.html

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Musical_mode

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

http://www.8notes.com/articles/modes/

http://www.answers.com/topic/properties-of-musical-modes

http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/doc/Modes.html

[dvenetian]

Rather than keeping the modes in order, I prefer to divide them by gender.
Minor modes with the minor scale and Major with Major.
Minor scale modes;
Dorian mode, minor scale with a #6th.
Phrygian mode, minor scale with a b2nd.
Aeolian mode, natural minor scale (not altered).

Major scale modes;
Ionian mode, Major scale (not altered).
Lydian mode, Major scale with a #4th.
Mixolydian mode, Major scale with a b7th.

Notice how each gender share 1 unaltered mode, 1 # and 1 b on both sides.
Take these modes and put them in a parallel key. G Ionian, G Dorian, etc.....
Use G as a tonal center and play the modes with G as a base in your chord structure; G Maj, Gmin7, etc... the possibilities are endless.
Take a look at the Pitch Axis Theory thread and you'll see how they relate.

[Drew77]

wow this is awesome. I have been playing in the diatonic for a while and have been really bored lately after memorizing all of it and feeling like I had no where to go. This idea is so simple that I am amazed I haven't figured it out yet. I guess in a way I have been adding notes to scales to make them more interesting but I didn't ever have the theory behind it.

I just wanted to thank you guys for this series of threads. And rest assured you certainly broke at least one player out of his box. :D thanks.

[dvenetian]

It's an awesome feeling when something clicks. Keep staring at it and the flood gates will open, bringing your playing to a new level that wasn't there before. It will also allow you to see music the way the players who influence your style or groove even though you may not come close playing like them right now. Getting comfortable with your new ideas is crucial for the ability to play them with consistancy. Feeling is what makes theory come to life. It allows you to improvise your style without having to think about it, it's already there and just flows from your hands.
Say that Satriani
is a big influence (He is to so many and that will never die) You would notice that Satch
loves the Lydian mode and structured a lot of awesome riffs around it.
Notice when playing the Lydian mode that the Major Pentatonic scale is laying there just waiting to be played as well.

[Akira]

See, the concept of modes is really simple, there's just a lot of people out there who teach it as "here's another scale to learn, it's called the _____ mode" (like my awful music theory teacher for example), which is completely the wrong way to learn about modes.

[dvenetian]

The Mixolydian mode is popular by demand in many genres due to it's dominate nature and close relationship to the Major (Ionian) scale.
Many players are introduced to modes by their connection with the major scale. Not to ignore the introduction, let's make the connection and then cut the umbilical cord so that we understand how the intervals were conceived.
Let's use the C Major scale for the example. The Mixolydian mode is commonly referred to as the fifth mode of the major scale. It is also referred to as the dominant mode. Why? In C Major, the G note is the fifth interval (AKA the dominant note). So the C Major scale consists of C-D-E-F-G-A-B. To create the intervals for the Mixolydian mode we need to match the notes it's coming from before we can release it on it's own (create it's DNA so to speak) Starting from the Majors fifth interval we get G, so we create a G Major scale, G-A-B-C-D-E-F#. We're 1/2 step off (sharp) from the match, but that's the DNA for the Major scale. So to make the match the Mixolydian is going to have to step in and lose 1/2 of a finger for it's DNA card and then it's free to go. Reviewing the DNA between the Major scale and the Mixolydian mode is the Mixolydian had flatten it's 7th interval by 1/2 step to receive it's identity in the Major's. Forget the notes, the Mixolydian modes DNA is 1(root)-2-3-4-5-6-b7 and it's Major. All that for 1/2 step? It almost sounds exactly like the Major scale from the same root note. Yes, but when it's used over a dominant chord progression, ie; A7.........etc.. It stands alone. More of Mixolydian's talents next post.

[dvenetian]

The Mixolydian mode gets a lot of attention with many Blues players, due to it's savvy presence and the ability to play well with others. If you like the style of SRV, than this modes for you. Stevie loved it for the Major 3rd improv that flavored his style. After all it is a Major interval with a dominant flare. With that established, let's take a look at one of the most popular scales used in Blues, the Blues scale. This slightly altered scale derives from the minor pentatonic scale by adding a b5 to the intervals.
Example: minor pentatonic scale = 1-b3-4-5-b7 (W+h-W-W-W+h-W)
The Blues scale (minor): = 1-b3-4-b5-5-b7 (W+h-W-h-h-W+h-W)
So the Blues scale took the 5 tones from the minor pentatonic and added a b5 passing tone, creating a 6 tone minor scale. Many players beat this scale to death by using it in almost every direction possible, after all it is limited in tonality even with the added passing tone thrown in.
To spice things up a little, some of the Legends began to merge some scales together, creating a hybrid scale so to speak it fit their style and offer more options to choose from. The intervals came from combining the Mixolydian mode and the Blues scale together and naming it the Mixo-blues scale.
Wait a minute, mixing a Major and a minor together????? Yup.
This combination brings 9 tones to the table, not to mention the minor and Major 3rd along with the minor 7th. (some studies refer to the Mixo-blues as a 7 note scale, but I say why not use them all since they're available).....
The Mixo-blues scale = 1-2-b3-3-4-b5-5-6-b7 (W-h-h-h-h-h-W-h-W).
I'll post a few chord progressions that work well with this hybrid scale, but I'd better pick up ol' trusty and jam first not to mis-post something.

[Drew77]

yeah, thats one thing I don't really get is chord progressions. I mean I know how they are formed and I know how they fit but what if you are using multiple scales from a single root? Does that change th chord progression? Do you have to change the scale you are playing with every chord change or just if it changes key? I have not yet started playing with other musicians, but I will be shortly if I can find any, but I just don;t feel comfortable with the whole progression thing. I got major and minor chords down fine, its just I don;t know how all those other much more interesting chords fit into the equation and how I can write melodies and solos over them... maybe I am over complicating it?


Edit: OH I think I got it. So a Major 7th progression is just a normal progression with 7th chords intead of the normal ones. so the order of major and minors is the same and the V chord is a dominant 7th? am I write. can 7th chords be mixed into other progressions or do you have to stick, I mean i have tried mixing more interesting chords into standard major and minor prog. but it is really hit or miss and I miss most of the time. Is that changing the key, does playing over a Major-7th prog. change the scales you use?

I was just looking at a 7th progression and realized who much more simple it is then I thought. However I still don't fully understand how to use it.

[dvenetian]

One simple way to look at progressions is by their harmonic intervals (notes played together) and how they relate to each other. Since this thread is focused on modes we'll use a modal progression as an example. Let's use a two chord progression, making it easier to see a nice fit.
Here it goes...... FMaj////GMaj////FMaj////GMaj.......... At first glance you could play F Ionian////G Ionian////, etc.......... But there's got to be an easier way to compliment the progression and focus on highlighting the notes as the progression changes.
FMaj = 1-3-5 (F-A-C) GMaj = 1-3-5 (G-B-D)
Let's look at the F Ionian mode = 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 (F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E)
All of the notes fit except for that damn 4th interval (Bb) and it's not even used in the FMaj chord!!!!!!! That 4th interval would need to be # from Bb to B and it would work for both chords. Let's try again this time using the F Lydian mode = 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7 (F-G-A-B-C-D-E) Hey that works!!!!!!! Many players would argue and say you could just use the C Major scale and it would work the same way, but I view it differently. The progression begins with FMaj and moves up a Major 2nd to GMaj giving the progression it's own entity. Modal progressions usually use 2 or 3 chord structures and resolve to the root chord so it remains the tonic or home chord of the mode emphasized.
Try a ________ mode and combine a minor/Major progression:
Dm7////Dm7////FMaj7////CMaj7............... What mode would fit here?

[Drew77]

C Ionian? This is were I have issues. Maybe I just need to spend more time memorizing the notes of scales and then it wouldn't take me so long to figure this stuff out...

The only note C Ionian i mising is Eb in the Dm7 chord. Maybe there is a better mode, I couldn't find one. it have to be like...


C-D-Eb-E-?F?-G-A-B... too many... Should I just be paying attention to the chords as I-V-VII or Should it be I-III-V-VI like I am now, because that doesn't seem to work. The actual order is I-V-VII-III (the order ascending anyway If that matters at all...) so I don't really know how you go about matching something up to this...

[dvenetian]

C Ionian? This is were I have issues. Maybe I just need to spend more time memorizing the notes of scales and then it wouldn't take me so long to figure this stuff out...

The only note C Ionian i mising is Eb in the Dm7 chord. Maybe there is a better mode, I couldn't find one. it have to be like...


C-D-Eb-E-?F?-G-A-B... too many... Should I just be paying attention to the chords as I-V-VII or Should it be I-III-V-VI like I am now, because that doesn't seem to work. The actual order is I-V-VII-III (the order ascending anyway If that matters at all...) so I don't really know how you go about matching something up to this...
The Dm7 chord = 1-b3-5-b7 (D-F-A-C)
The FMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (F-A-C-E)
The CMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (C-E-G-B)
Yes, all of the notes are in C Ionian, but will that be the best choice to compliment the progression? In my opinion, no. My focus is to emphasize that minor 7th chord to the max!!!!!! Notice how the b3 note in the Dm7 chord is the 1st note of the FMaj7 chord and the b7 note is the 1st note of the CMaj7 chord along with the 5th note of the FMaj7 chord. With that in mind I would look at the D Dorian mode = 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 (D-E-F-G-A-B-C). Notice how the intervals follow suit.
So my choice would be the D Dorian mode.

[dvenetian]

[QUOTE=dvenetian]
The Dm7 chord = 1-b3-5-b7 (D-F-A-C)
The FMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (F-A-C-E)
The CMaj7 chord= 1-3-5-7 (C-E-G-B)
Yes, the D Dorian mode = 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 (D-E-F-G-A-B-C).

Something I would like to point out from the reference above are the intervals. Notice how the notes from the chords Leap Frog over the notes in the Dorian mode. D then jump over E, etc........... They follow the notes in the chords. Notice the interval differences from each chord. Remember the Dorian mode is a minor mode, so when improvising over a chord progression it's important to listen to the intervals for the best solo.
Example: Look at the FMaj7 chord, the notes fit in the Dorian mode but it's important to remember it's a Major 7th chord and that 7th interval tends to leave you hanging if you try to end a measure on it. This 7th note is commonly referred to as a leading tone because it wants to resolve on it's root. Try it, play the Ionian (Major scale) 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and stop. That 7th tone will want to go home to make it sound complete. Now play the Aeolian (Natural minor scale) 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 and stop. It's important to choose the tones that compliment the tonal center rather than just ripping along on any ol' note because it's in key, if you want to really shine.

[kennyp46]

So to put it in simple terms, if i learn the five positions of the major (ionian) and natural minor (aeolian) and then group them as major and minor modes, i won't have to memorize the other modes as long as i remember which note is # and which is b in each of the other modes

[dvenetian]

So to put it in simple terms, if i learn the five positions of the major (ionian) and natural minor (aeolian) and then group them as major and minor modes, i won't have to memorize the other modes as long as i remember which note is # and which is b in each of the other modes
In simple terms, it's best to learn the intervals that factor the make up of the mode. This will determine whether it is a Major or minor mode by the Major or minor intervals in it's make up.
Example: Let's say a song uses a chord progression of B, C, D, F#, and G power chords with B as the Tonal center of the song. When we first look at the intervals these chords make up, we notice that there are only two possible modes that these intervals are comprised from. The Phrygian and the Locrian modes. When we look closer we notice that the Locrian mode Intervals require a b5th (F) which is not in the progression, so that leaves us with only one possible mode that the Chord progression fits in; The Phrygian mode. This progression fits The B Phrygian mode. The progression also allows for the E and A chord to be used as well because they are intervals of the B- Phrygian mode.
This would be an example on how you would express the use of a mode to make it sound like it's own and not just a spin off from G Major (Ionian).

[dvenetian]

Back to the Mixolydian mode and it's common use in the Blues.
Here's an example of using three different Mixolydian modes in a standard three chord A-Blues progression; A7, D7 and E7 using A Mixo, D Mixo, and E Mixolydian modes. Notice that the Mixolydians strong beats are just Arpeggio's of the chords in A-Blues. (the other notes used in the progression are considered "Passing Tones" or weak beats)
A7 Mixo
e-------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------------------------
D-----------------------------7-5-4---------------------
A------------------------------------7-5-4--------------
E-------------------------5-----------------7-----------
Play 4 times

D7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------7-5-4----------------------
D------------------------------------7-5-4---------------
A-------------------------5-----------------7------------
E--------------------------------------------------------
Play 2 times, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times

E7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------9-7-6---------------------
D------------------------------------9-7-6--------------
A--------------------------7----------------9-----------
E-------------------------------------------------------
Play 1 time, back to D7 mixo and play 1 time, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times.
Then start from the beginning again. I'll post a turn-around and finish to the progression next time.
A fingering suggestion for all three patterns would be from start to finish as follows. Start with 2nd finger, so 2--4-2-1--4-2-1--4. Hope that makes sense.
Have fun

[dvenetian]

Back to the Mixolydian mode and it's common use in the Blues.
Here's an example of using three different Mixolydian modes in a standard three chord A-Blues progression; A7, D7 and E7 using A Mixo, D Mixo, and E Mixolydian modes. Notice that the Mixolydians strong beats are just Arpeggio's of the chords in A-Blues. (the other notes used in the progression are considered "Passing Tones" or weak beats)
A7 Mixo
e-------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------------------------
D-----------------------------7-5-4---------------------
A------------------------------------7-5-4--------------
E-------------------------5-----------------7-----------
Play 4 times

D7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------7-5-4----------------------
D------------------------------------7-5-4---------------
A-------------------------5-----------------7------------
E--------------------------------------------------------
Play 2 times, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times

E7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------9-7-6---------------------
D------------------------------------9-7-6--------------
A--------------------------7----------------9-----------
E-------------------------------------------------------
Play 1 time, back to D7 mixo and play 1 time, then back to A7 mixo and play 2 times.
Then start from the beginning again. I'll post a turn-around and finish to the progression next time.
A fingering suggestion for all three patterns would be from start to finish as follows. Start with 2nd finger, so 2--4-2-1--4-2-1--4. Hope that makes sense.
Have fun
After completing the quoted progression, here's a turn-around and completion to the progression:
Turn-around:
E7 Mixo
e--------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------
G-----------------------7----6--------
D---------------6----9---------9------
A------------7------------------------
E-------------------------------------

Finish:
A7
e-------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------
D-------------------------------7-----
A-------------------------------7-----
E-------------------------------------

Using this post will show the Interval connection to Modal Theory.
You can use this theory to recognize Interval relationships between modes to create interest with Chord progressions and intro's to key changes over time by studying the relative patterns.
Good Luck.

[dvenetian]

Many players wonder how to improvise when playing modes, thinking that they are limited by the modal pattern and must play all of the notes to make the mode sound correct.
Here's a couple of examples on how to improvise and flavor up your solos while remaining intact with the mode you're expressing.
We'll use the E Phrygian mode, which is a minor mode, as an example. The notes are; E-F-G-A-B-C-D
A great way to grasp onto this is to start out simple. Since we are using a minor mode, let's turn our focus to the minor Pentatonic scale. The notes of the E minor Pentatonic are; E-G-A-B-D
Now the D minor Pentatonic; D-F-G-A-C
And the A minor Pentatonic; A-C-D-E-G
All these notes relate to the notes in the E Phrygian mode. This can be a great help when trying to decide what chords fit best in a progression. We can see that Em, Dm and Am all work. What about Fm? No, it has an Ab. F Major? Yes, it has F-A-C. Is there a better fit that would include the Tonic from E Phrygian? Yes, FMaj7 has F-A-C-E. Any others? Yes FMaj9 has F-A-C-E-G and FMaj13 has F-A-C-E-G-D.
Try playing an FMaj7 and notice how it wants to resolve to Em.
I would like to point out another connection in regard to the FMaj7 chord structure when played at the 1st fret position. Notice how it is just an open Am chord with F as the Root. Even though the open A string is the 3rd of the F Major chord, it is not played (Deadened) by most, as not to emphasize a possible Am overtone from the F root note.
Next let's look at the E Phrygian and the E Aeolian modes, which are both minor modes.

[Drew77]

This newest post is very helpful. Thanks again for putting this stuff up here. It's nice to hear someone actually talk about applying theory rather than having to read five pages about it and then not really knowing how to take it into my playing, this thread is great. Please keep going. I've been wanting to get into jazz playing but it seems kinda daunting and I don't really know where to start as far as improvising and coming up with interesting chords and such. I can play in one key or mode but switching while playing is something I don't really understand how to do, particularly while improvising and progressions and stuff it just doesn't sound smooth. I suppose I should find some chord that has notes from the former key and the new key to use as a sorta bridge between the two? An example of a jazz progression that changes key would be great just to kinda see how its done. I wish my ear was better then, maybe this stuff would be easier.

[dvenetian]

This newest post is very helpful. Thanks again for putting this stuff up here. It's nice to hear someone actually talk about applying theory rather than having to read five pages about it and then not really knowing how to take it into my playing, this thread is great. Please keep going. I've been wanting to get into jazz playing but it seems kinda daunting and I don't really know where to start as far as improvising and coming up with interesting chords and such. I can play in one key or mode but switching while playing is something I don't really understand how to do, particularly while improvising and progressions and stuff it just doesn't sound smooth. I suppose I should find some chord that has notes from the former key and the new key to use as a sorta bridge between the two? An example of a jazz progression that changes key would be great just to kinda see how its done. I wish my ear was better then, maybe this stuff would be easier.
Glad you got something from it.
To understand how to make smooth transitions with a progression when changing keys, you will benefit greatly if you understand "The Circle of Fifths". If you're struggling with any part of the Circle theory, list them and I will try to shed some light on the subject. It will also help with training your ear.

[Byron Marks]

I've been playing for quite a while now but am still wondering how to really use the modes and what chord to play certain modes over. I feel kinda stupid about it but for some reason, I never put it together....

[Weslaba]

I've been playing for quite a while now but am still wondering how to really use the modes and what chord to play certain modes over. I feel kinda stupid about it but for some reason, I never put it together....
Well, this is how it works out... as you probably know, chords have formulas, such as, 1 3 5, 1 b3 5, etc. These are very valuable to know because, the modes also have their formulas. Ionian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, so this would work over a major chord, which is 1 3 5. Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7, so, with the b3, it will work over minor chords (1 b3 5) I won't go into the other ones, because I'm not too up on the chord formulas myself, but you get the idea. Just match the formulas, and that's how it works. It's basically just memorization, unless someone knows of certain jedi mind tricks to aid the theoretically challenged such as I.

[dvenetian]

Well, this is how it works out... as you probably know, chords have formulas, such as, 1 3 5, 1 b3 5, etc. These are very valuable to know because, the modes also have their formulas. Ionian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, so this would work over a major chord, which is 1 3 5. Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7, so, with the b3, it will work over minor chords (1 b3 5) I won't go into the other ones, because I'm not too up on the chord formulas myself, but you get the idea. Just match the formulas, and that's how it works. It's basically just memorization, unless someone knows of certain jedi mind tricks to aid the theoretically challenged such as I.
For the sake of being politically correct in this thread;
Dorian is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
1-2-b3-4-5-6-7 would be the Melodic minor (Ascending).
Hope that helps................

[light487]

hey hey.. so I was really confused about modes this morning. I thought may be I had completely misunderstood modes for about 15 minutes. It's because I watched some thing on YouTube by Satch showing all the modes. and then something clicked and I realised there is two ways to think about modes.

#1: The modes of the Major scale.
#2: The modes of a Key.

May be there is a better way to say the 2nd form, I'll explain what I mean. In the first method, which is the usual method of looking at modes.. you have 7 unique starting notes of the same scale of notes. In the second method, you have 7 scales of notes starting with the same root note.

If I played through all the modes of the C Major scale, the first method, then the Dorian mode would actually be called D Dorian.. it's a D Minor scale with a raised 6th (or something).. but it is still just the C Major scale starting on the second note, the D. The next mode, E Phrygian is really like an E minor with a raised something but still just the C Major scale starting on the third note, the E.. so that got me thinking..

If I grab all the same starting notes.. eg. E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian etc.. then I am no longer playing the E Major scale when I play E Phrygian.. I am now playing the C Major scale, starting on the E/third/phrygian note. So if I play an open bottom-E string, then play through each of the modes for E, using the second method of thinking.. I get 7 modes of the Key of E... which are the ones I actually want.. because they are the usable ones.. It makes complete sense now.

[dvenetian]

hey hey.. so I was really confused about modes this morning. I thought may be I had completely misunderstood modes for about 15 minutes. It's because I watched some thing on YouTube by Satch showing all the modes. and then something clicked and I realised there is two ways to think about modes.

#1: The modes of the Major scale.
#2: The modes of a Key.

May be there is a better way to say the 2nd form, I'll explain what I mean. In the first method, which is the usual method of looking at modes.. you have 7 unique starting notes of the same scale of notes. In the second method, you have 7 scales of notes starting with the same root note.

If I played through all the modes of the C Major scale, the first method, then the Dorian mode would actually be called D Dorian.. it's a D Minor scale with a raised 6th (or something).. but it is still just the C Major scale starting on the second note, the D. The next mode, E Phrygian is really like an E minor with a raised something but still just the C Major scale starting on the third note, the E.. so that got me thinking..

If I grab all the same starting notes.. eg. E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian etc.. then I am no longer playing the E Major scale when I play E Phrygian.. I am now playing the C Major scale, starting on the E/third/phrygian note. So if I play an open bottom-E string, then play through each of the modes for E, using the second method of thinking.. I get 7 modes of the Key of E... which are the ones I actually want.. because they are the usable ones.. It makes complete sense now.
Using the same root note (E as example) in each scale, mode, etc..... does not make them all fit into the Key Of E.
The Key of E contains the notes; E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#
The E Phrygian Mode has notes; E-F-G-A-B-C-D
The E Dorian Mode has notes: E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D
All have different functions. They can be used for an emphasis to something.
They are Parallel scales.
By trying to separate the thought of looking at E Phrygian as just Starting the C Major scale from it's third note, I'm going to scramble these notes up in no apparent order to and see if it makes sense.

D-B-F-A-C-G-E......Does this look like the C Major Scale???? now Another,
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#....How about this one???? Why not? they both have C in them........
The fact is that the only way to create a Major scale is by the Intervals following the Root; = R-W-W-h-W-W-W-h.......
So C Major looks like this;... C-D-E-F-G-A-B......
Now let's look at it this way; A-B-C-D-E-F-G......
That's not the C Major Scale, It's the A natural minor scale (Aeolian Mode)
The Intervals are different and the C note has become a minor 3rd.
Every mode including the Aeolian mode has a different interval pattern which changes each notes function.
So, if you play a progression in D Dorian for example, it's Dorian...........

[light487]

May be I explained that badly in my excitement..

C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phyrigian, F Lydian, G Mixolidian, A Aeolian, B Locrian (forgive spelling mistakes).. all share the same notes of the C Major Scale. To play F Lydian, I take all the same notes and order of the C Major scale and play it with the F as the start.. so.. F G A B C D E and back to F again. There are no sharps or flats in the C Major scale.

Now let's look at it like this: E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, E Lydian, E Mixolidian, E Aeolian, E Locrian. Each mode here is based on a different major scale. E Ionian is the E Major scale starting on the E. E Dorian is all the notes of the D Major scale starting from the 2nd note or E.

E Ionian Mode (E Major Scale)
E F# G# A B C# D#

E Dorian (D Major Scale)
E F# G A B C# D

E Phrygian (C Major Scale)
E F G A B C D

and so on..

(EDIT: Just to clarify a little further.. the E Dorian in relation to the key of E is I-II-iii-IV-V-VI-VII.. so it's an E Major scale with a minor 3rd)

now.. play all these through while you have a E bass note sounding as a guide, so that the relative major scale doesn't confuse you.

Did that make more sense that time?

[light487]

D-B-F-A-C-G-E......Does this look like the C Major Scale???? now Another,
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#....How about this one???? Why not? they both have C in them.........

The first is the D Lydian, the second is the G Ionian/Major-Scale. I understand that bit.. I'm just trying to take all this theory and apply it.. which is the next step.

[dvenetian]

May be I explained that badly in my excitement..

C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phyrigian, F Lydian, G Mixolidian, A Aeolian, B Locrian (forgive spelling mistakes).. all share the same notes of the C Major Scale. To play F Lydian, I take all the same notes and order of the C Major scale and play it with the F as the start.. so.. F G A B C D E and back to F again. There are no sharps or flats in the C Major scale.

Now let's look at it like this: E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, E Lydian, E Mixolidian, E Aeolian, E Locrian. Each mode here is based on a different major scale. E Ionian is the E Major scale starting on the E. E Dorian is all the notes of the D Major scale starting from the 2nd note or E.

E Ionian Mode (E Major Scale)
E F# G# A B C# D#

E Dorian (D Major Scale)
E F# G A B C# D

E Phrygian (C Major Scale)
E F G A B C D

and so on..

(EDIT: Just to clarify a little further.. the E Dorian in relation to the key of E is I-II-iii-IV-V-VI-VII.. so it's an E Major scale with a minor 3rd)

now.. play all these through while you have a E bass note sounding as a guide, so that the relative major scale doesn't confuse you.

Did that make more sense that time?
Sorry light, maybe it was my fault in not explaining the theory clearly.
Maybe I can help better if you could explain how you arrived with the relation between E Dorian and the Key of E, to start from.
Let me know if I can help.

[dvenetian]

The first is the D Lydian, the second is the G Ionian/Major-Scale. I understand that bit.. I'm just trying to take all this theory and apply it.. which is the next step.
Same here with explaining D lydian.......The G Ionian/Major scale part is Correct.
I'm happy to help if I can.

[CSchlegel]

Now let's look at it like this: E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, E Lydian, E Mixolidian, E Aeolian, E Locrian. Each mode here is based on a different major scale.
Good identification.
(EDIT: Just to clarify a little further.. the E Dorian in relation to the key of E is I-II-iii-IV-V-VI-VII.. so it's an E Major scale with a minor 3rd)
Two problems here.

1. In music Roman numerals are typically used to represent chord functions and not scale degrees. If you are trying to represent scale degrees say, "root, major 2nd, minor 3rd ..." and so on. Otherwise it gets confusing.

2. E dorian is essentially an E major scale with a minor 3rd and a minor 7th.

This is a good way of looking at the modes, though: how they differ from unaltered major and, or minor. From this perspective though, I'd say that the minor 3rd is the most crucial "hinge". So I would say that dorian is natural minor (aeolian) with a major 6th.
now.. play all these through while you have a E bass note sounding as a guide, so that the relative major scale doesn't confuse you.
This is exactly one type of approach that some players use it order to switch modes in the same solo. From Van Halen to John McLaughlin, these guys will make sure that the other instruments (bass, keys, etc.) are only playing a limited amount of notes that do not interfere with the switching of modes.

So if the bassist is only playing an E, D and B, then the guitarist can effectively switch between E dorian, E phrygian, E mixolydian, E aeolian at will.

This is an example of ornamental use of modes.

Suppose a song is in the key of E major and the melody or solo line uses E ionian. Then the melody or solo line switches to E lydian, that implies a modulation to the key of B major. Then the chords actually change to the key of B major and the melody or solo line uses B ionian.

This is a frequent technique of classical guys like Beethoven, Haydn & Mozart (maybe you've heard of them? :) ) that can be found in any one of their works from piano sonatas to symphonies.

This is an example of structural use of modes.

[FMURPHYFrnky]

playing the modes diatonically (C major = C inonian , D minor = D dorian , E minor = E phrygian , F major = F lydian, G 7th = G mixolydian , A minor = A aeolian , B min7th flat 5th = B locrian) is a (sensible) way to LEARN? how they make sense but to get the true flavor of each mode , I do believe the best route to take is to play each mode from one singular root note to notice how each scale changes in flavor... IN THE KEY OF G play each mode from the ROOT OF "G" third fret low E string... also to make it more interesting as you go you can find certain other keys that relate to each mode for ex : G ionian from it's 6th = E aeolian... or G phrygian from it's 4th = C aeolian... or more obscure ones such as G ionain from it's 4th = C lydian... in doing this you'll map the whole neck together quite nicely I think... ask yourself these questions and you'll be playing in more unfamiliar territory, which is really good for any competent guitarist...

for ex : G ionian (G , A , B , C , D , E , F#) major
G dorian (G , A , Bb , C , D , E , F) minor

: quiz yourself w/ random notes outta these modes
what mode will you get if you start the G dorian mode from it's Bb 3rd tone?
the answer is "Bb lydian"... see how it works...??? questions comments ?

G phrygian (G , Ab , A# , C , D , Eb , F) minor
G lydian (G , A , B , C# , D , E , F#) major
:
this is a good method for learning spaces on the use the least
what mode do you get if you begin playing from the C#4th of G lydian ? the answer is "C# locrian"... do this over and over , use the most obscure notes you can possibly come up with and then you'll master the whole fretboard...

G mixolydian (G , A , B , C , D , E , F) dominant 7th
G aeolian (G , A , Bb , C , D , Eb , F) natural minor
G locrian (G , Ab , A# , C , C# , Eb , F) min 7th flat 5th

Franky M.

[dvenetian]

I study Modes from both a derivative and Parallel function, but the parallel really allows hearing the Interval function harmonically and melodically.
Being that there's no set order to Parallel Modes, I like to occasionally put them in order from Bright to the darker sounding Modes.
Using G as the Root, starting with Lydian.

Lydian == G----A----B----C#----D----E----F#
Ionian == G----A----B----C-----D----E----F#
Mixo---== G----A----B----C-----D----E----F
Dorian ===G----A----Bb---C-----D----E----F
Aeolian--= G----A----Bb---C-----D---Eb----F
Phrygian = G----Ab---Bb---C-----D---Eb----F
Locrian--= G----Ab---Bb---C-----Db--Eb----F

In this order, each mode only changes by one Interval from the previous mode. It's interesting to note that the only difference between G Phrygian and G Locrian is Db (b5th interval).
Memorizing patterns and the notes are beneficial, but to really play modes skillfully, the understanding in Interval Function is essential..

[FMURPHYFrnky]

thats pretty awesome man !!! i dig that alot bro , it was definetely cool hearing the darker more minor modes AGAINST THE GRAIN , as it were!!! VERY COOL ADVICE , THANKS ... i'm going to bring this method to a student of mine i'll tell him to check out your stuff...

always looking for some advice over here , happy to accept...

Franky M.

[dvenetian]

thats pretty awesome man !!! i dig that alot bro , it was definetely cool hearing the darker more minor modes AGAINST THE GRAIN , as it were!!! VERY COOL ADVICE , THANKS ... i'm going to bring this method to a student of mine i'll tell him to check out your stuff...
always looking for some advice over here , happy to accept...
Franky M.
I like your post as well. Good info regarding mode/interval relations.
A good tool to reference from when something doesn't quite fit in a Key while transcribing a piece, is Parallel Modes.
Take the progression in The Stones "Gimme Shelter" for example (Great Song, for sure).
The progression is; Intro; C#maj- Bmaj - Amaj
Chorus;
C#maj- Bmaj- Amaj- Emaj - Amaj - Emaj - Amaj - Emaj - Bmaj - Emaj - Bmaj

Using the Tonic Chord from the C# Ionian; C#-d#-e#-F#-G#-a#-b#
Then borrowing the Major Chords from the parallel minor
C# Aeolian; c#-d#-E-f#-g#-A-B
The Major chords C# from the Ionian and E-A-B from the c# Aeolian is brilliant. Although the chords are Major, the progression creates a minor Feel
(probably due to the lack of a pronounced V Chord proclaiming a Tonic).
Portions in the Solo are using the C#m Pentatonic scale as well.
(If anyone is interested, some claim the song is played in Open E Tuning) (and why not throw in some sus chord variation where need be).

[FMURPHYFrnky]

the "gimmie shelter" stones ex: was totally awesome my friend...

just in case you've yet to hear some stuff i've done you can hear me at

www.myspace.com/friffz (my own personal space)
www.myspace.com/triphammermetal (a former power metal quintet)

(TRIPHAMMER was a melodic thrashing metal mad power metal quintet which features sweeping , beautifully harmonized solos we were a 2 guitar act)

www.myspace.com/triphammer95


(triphammer updated our sound to more hardcore metal the likes of PANTERA , CRO MAGS)

TO FIND my third and most alternative metal band "EVERY SECOND" Just click onto it's name which can easily be located on any of the friends on the other two or three :eek: myspaces I've posted !!!

(every second was an alternative metal band the likes of TOOL , THE MELVINS , AND HELMET)...

Check out these sites to hear what i've been doing for yr's n yr's...

now i'm mainly focused on HENDRIX , MICHEAL SCHENKER , MALMSTEEN and U.F.O. ...

send me some of your stuff bro i always enjoy your advice columns... THANX Franky M.

[dvenetian]

the "gimmie shelter" stones ex: was totally awesome my friend...

just in case you've yet to hear some stuff i've done you can hear me at

www.myspace.com/friffz (my own personal space)
www.myspace.com/triphammermetal (a former power metal quintet)

(TRIPHAMMER was a melodic thrashing metal mad power metal quintet which features sweeping , beautifully harmonized solos we were a 2 guitar act)

www.myspace.com/triphammer95


(triphammer updated our sound to more hardcore metal the likes of PANTERA , CRO MAGS)

TO FIND my third and most alternative metal band "EVERY SECOND" Just click onto it's name which can easily be located on any of the friends on the other two or three :eek: myspaces I've posted !!!

(every second was an alternative metal band the likes of TOOL , THE MELVINS , AND HELMET)...

Check out these sites to hear what i've been doing for yr's n yr's...

now i'm mainly focused on HENDRIX , MICHEAL SCHENKER , MALMSTEEN and U.F.O. ...

send me some of your stuff bro i always enjoy your advice columns... THANX Franky M.
Sounds awesome.......Nice work.....

[FMURPHYFrnky]

thank you SO MUCH MAN , I TRUELY APPRECIATE YOU taking the time to check out my PG'S... so far i've heard some excellent brainfreaks from superhuman AND i INTEND TO DIG FURTHER AND HOPEFULLY MAKE SOME MORE FRIENDS HERE... YOU GUYS ALL AMAZE ME , I BELIEVE I HEARD DNVETIAN TRACKS AS WELL... NOT SURE IF IT WAS HIM BUT THEY W :D ERE TO BE COMMENDED :D ...

www.myspace.com/friffz
www.myspace.com/triphammermetal
www.myspace.com/triphammer95

and unfortunately i dunno the exact name of the mypace pg. w/ my latest band "EVERY SECOND"... but you'll find it , as i've said on any of the other pg's... :D

Franky M.

[Bill Brown 1979]

Dvenetian.

After reading through you posts within this thread, a few things have 'clicked' in my head. Things which I've been having trouble understanding now seem so much clearer! I understood what the modes were and the unique characteristics of each, but when it came to applying the different modes to various situations, I was a little lost. Post #10 especially seemed to play a large part in clearing up my confusion.

Thanks very much for your advice, man!! Awesome!!

:D

[dvenetian]

Dvenetian.

After reading through you posts within this thread, a few things have 'clicked' in my head. Things which I've been having trouble understanding now seem so much clearer! I understood what the modes were and the unique characteristics of each, but when it came to applying the different modes to various situations, I was a little lost. Post #10 especially seemed to play a large part in clearing up my confusion.

Thanks very much for your advice, man!! Awesome!!

:D
My pleasure Bill and welcome to the Forum. If you have any questions feel free to post em'. Someone here will be more than happy to address em'.

[Bill Brown 1979]

Thanks for the welcome! I'm sure I'll have one or two questions in the near future. ;)

[Lao_Tzu]

could you post the intervals of the modes all in sequence

so i can memorize them please.

[Silimtao]

When most of us are introduced to the 7 modes that relate to the 7 tones of the Major scale, we memorize the name and scale pattern of each mode by the order in which they follow the root note of the Major scale.
1st (root) Ionian mode, 2nd Dorian mode, 3rd Phrygian mode, 4th Lydian mode, 5th Mixolydian mode, 6th Aeolian mode (Natural minor) and 7th Locrian mode. Many studies use the G Major scale as an example because the patterns can be started and completed on all strings until they repeat again at the 15th fret. Most studies include the key signature and the connection each degree has to it's mode. Example: G Major- Am- Bm- C Major- D Major- Em- F#dim (some classify the diminished degree as minor, some say it's neither Major nor minor). So the modes follow suit, G Ionian, A Dorian (minor mode), B Phrygian (minor), C lydian (Major), etc.....
The modes use all of the same notes as the Major (Ionian) scale, they just start their pattern with a different note, so what's the big deal??
Many players never grasp the concept of incorporating Modal Theory with their style because they view the mode only to the Parent Diatonic scale, not as it's own tonal center and surround it with notes that relate to it.
I don't know if you've followed the "phrygian thread", but you've said exactly here, what I was trying to relate. I'm stealing what you've said here, and linking it to the other thread. Thanks! I just couldn't find my own words!

[CSchlegel]

Most of this was covered in the phrygian thread. The last two lines are problematic.

The modes use all of the same notes as the Major (Ionian) scale, they just start their pattern with a different note, so what's the big deal??
The big deal is that it can be very confusing and can take a long time to truly grasp, understand and incorporate.

Many players never grasp the concept of incorporating Modal Theory with their style because they view the mode only to the Parent Diatonic scale, not as it's own tonal center and surround it with notes that relate to it.
A mode can't have "it's own tonal center" because the very concept of tonal relates to tonality as distinguished from modality. A mode can have it's own root note, it's own circled 1 on the fretboard patterns.

The primary distinction that is important to make is between a modal approach and a tonal approach.

A modal approach is regarding any given mode as the primary group of notes to used as in creating a piece of music. Typically, the result of this is that a tonal resolution is not present. There is no leading tone cadential resolution, and the chords do not necessarily follow the principles of Functional Harmony.

Example: a song or part of a song that uses the A aeolian mode and has these chords in this order - A min/G maj/F maj/G maj/A min. No leading tone present, no harmonic resolution.

A tonal approach is regarding any major or minor scale (altered to contain the raised 7th when required) as the primary group of notes to used as in creating a piece of music. Necessarily, the result of this is that at some point a tonal resolution is present. There is a leading tone cadential resolution, and the chords at some point necessarily follow the principles of Functional Harmony.

Example: a song or part of a song that uses the A minor scale and has these chords in this order - A min/G maj/F maj/E7/A min. Note that the E7 has a G# (altered 7th) as the leading tone, which then forms the harmonic resolution (V7-i).

So you can think of and use modes when you are playing no matter what. But they have a very specific function and there is an important difference between modal and tonal.

[revoh]

could you post the intervals of the modes all in sequence

so i can memorize them please.

http://www.guitartricks.com/lesson.php?input=7360
It's a lesson by The Ace on Modes and it includes their intervals that might help you out, it certainly helped me.

[shred3]

The more I read about modal theory the more confused I am becoming. I have memorized all the modes, and "quizz" myself with them, and move them around up and down the neck.

The problem is that I'm starting to feel clostrophobic about them now. Like in an above post Dev is mentioning playing an A mixo scale, but his notes are running into the G lydian box. So can I play G lydian as well as the A mixo ?

As long as the scale format for mixo falls on the A, can I play anywhere on the neck such as Ionian in C?

[Lao_Tzu]

all modes are really are playing the right scales with the right chords. if u have a chord that brings out a certain flavour like a major 7th or even better a major 7th sus they have really distinct flavours and sounds. the modal theory comes into play when you know the intervals of the modes not the shapes. then u start to play the write mode for the right chord and targeting the flavour notes. example if the chord progression was from the second chord to the third chord in A major which would be b minor to c# minor. now we have the chords you could just play straight pentatonics the b minor and c# minor pentatonics but that wouldnt bring out the full flavour of what were going for. because knwoing your modes this is a dorian progression the way we make it dorian is we change the chords from b minor and c# minor to having a characteristic from the dorian scale. the dorian scale intervals are 1 maj2nd min3rd 4th 5th flat 6th flat 7th. and the average minor chord has a 1 minor 3rd p5th. now to make this dorian we need to slip in the chord the dorian notes. so what most ppl do is add the flavour note of the minor 7th so u can cahnge the b minor to bminor 7 c# minor to c#minor 7th. what id do is have the bminor chord with a sus2 and flat 7th. and the last chord c# minor 7th. now the chords are arranged u need to start tageting these notes with in the chord a good practice is to record an apperegiated sequence and feel when the notes come about and harmonize some b dorian over the top or a major (be careful always end on the root of b). hope this helps its the same for other scales if u know the intervalic structure (how the scales are made)

correct me if im wrong we all make mistakes

remember music is to be enjoyed not to be confused about.

[shred3]

That does help. I get carried away thinking too hard about things and miss the simple point of the topic. Thanks

[shred3]

Sorry to beat the thread to death but OMG I just had a giant "click"!! I was going over some of Chris Schlegel's lessons, first learning to play the major scale 3 different ways on each root, so I started memorizing all the A notes.

Then I got into his lesson on inversions, and after learning the root, first, and 2nd inversion and memorizing A, C#, and E on the fret I started moving the chords around and noodling. Before, I spent so much time practicing the modes all over the neck, that now I "see" all the modes and can bounce around them at will, and into the pentatonic.

Before I couldn't recognize the different sounds of the modes except for the changed note, now I can definitely tell when I play the different intervals around the inversions.

Just wanted to say thanks again, and a big thanks to Mr. Schlegel for showing me the way. /salute

[CSchlegel]

... I just had a giant "click"!! I was going over some of Chris Schlegel's lessons ...
Good for you! :) Glad you are getting value from the site and my lessons.
Before, I spent so much time practicing the modes all over the neck, that now I "see" all the modes and can bounce around them at will, and into the pentatonic.
Exactly. All these things are part of the same system. They are integrated; they do not work against each another, or somehow contradict each other.

And another thing, kudos to you for woodshedding the modes all over, so that when you reached the necessary conceptual understanding (the 'click' moment) your hands were already physically prepared to make use of it!

I cannot stress this enough: this is where and how theory meets practice. Thanks for posting about your 'click' moment.

Just wanted to say thanks again, and a big thanks to Mr. Schlegel for showing me the way. /salute
My pleasure. You deserve credit for working on it and practicing until you got it. Happy learning and playing.

[xMotherx]

The more I read about modal theory the more confused I am becoming. I have memorized all the modes, and "quizz" myself with them, and move them around up and down the neck.

The problem is that I'm starting to feel clostrophobic about them now. Like in an above post Dev is mentioning playing an A mixo scale, but his notes are running into the G lydian box. So can I play G lydian as well as the A mixo ?

As long as the scale format for mixo falls on the A, can I play anywhere on the neck such as Ionian in C?

Just be careful not to confuse a "position" with a mode. Playing second position G major (starting on the 5th fret) is how most folks start recognizing the modes, you start associating the major scale position with the mode that shares the same root. In other words 2nd position G maj becomes A dorian.

This is fine for starting out, but it's important to realize it's not the position you are playing that makes it a A dorian, it's that you are playing the notes from the G Major scale, where ever they might be.

So although people do have a habit of associating positions of the root major scale to a mode, (2nd is Dorian, 3rd is Phrygian, 4th is Lydian, 5th is Mixo, 6th Aoelian, 7th Lociran) the whole point to understand is that if I play the notes from G major in any of these positions over a chord progression that emphasizes A minor, I am playing in A Dorian.

Even if the chord progression is a ii-V (Santana style) of A minor - D Major. If you play these two chords for the same amount of time per measure your ear will hear the A minor as the emphasis chord and therefore even when you play G major notes over the D major chord it will still feel like A Dorian, unless you spendmore than a measure on each chord then it might start sounding like you are changing modes each measure. If you change that progression and attempt to emphasize the D major chord in your progression perhaps by playing D major first and playing it for twice as long as the A minor chord you ear might be fooled into hearing the emphasis as being on the D major, which should now mean if you play the notes of G major over this progression it will sound like the Mixolydian mode.

This is really simplifying it obviously, you *still* have to take care to pick your notes out of the G major scale to suit the chord you are playing over. Dorian for instance really starts to shine when you play that #6 (when you play a F# on the 7th fret B string) against an A minor chord. This is because there's only a single note difference between true minor (Aeolian) and Dorian, and it's *that* note. So learn which notes are misplaced from the scale that you'd normally associate with the chord you are playing over, and practice emphasizing not only the notes of the chord, but this other note that might not even be in the chord at all.

Other examples:
Lydian - #4 from true Major
Mixolydian - b7 from true Major

Some of the fun of modes for me is to find the least number of chords I can use to tell the listeners ear what mode this is before I play a single note over it.

Like my favorite Dorian progression is still a ii-V.
Mixo - IV-V
Lydian - V-IV

and you'd be surprised at how many of your favorite solos end up being over these simple 2 chord progressions.

Hope this is helpful to someone, and hope I'm not a whacko that has a completely weird way of looking at this stuff lol.

[Jason Vearing]

Further to the post of grouping modes together - minors - Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, - Majors Ionian/Lydian - Dominant Mixolydian and Locrian as a minor with a b5. That is a great approach. I would take it even one step further into arpeggios and then add the extra tones.

Over a Maj 7 chord - you can play a Maj7 arpeggio which would highlight the 1, 3, 5 and 7 tones, as you play this arpeggio over the chord you can add in 2, 4, and 6 notes to add Ionian flavour or 2, b4 and 6 tones for a Lydian flavour. etc.

This takes away learning all the different modes and recalling them 'on the fly' you just look for the arpeggio tones of the chord you are playing over. I call these lily pads - a frog can do all sorts of radical backflips and whatever but he has to land on a lily pad to avoid falling in the water. In other words - you can play whatever you like but you need to land on an arpeggio chord tone to sound like you know what you are doing.

Jason.

[t.k. gardner]

It probably goes without saying but I will say it anyway... these are all devices to give you ideas for notes to use in your improvised (or even composed) MELODIES. Melodies is the operative word here because after all of the mode-learning is done, if you just run modes up and down, or even just arpeggios, your melodies will sound boring, even though all of the notes are right. Balance, register, rhythm, tension, timbre, dynamics, articulation are all things that need to be incorporated into a melody so it sounds musical. This is why a lot of people say modal playing sounds dumb, because these elements are not woven into the modal melodies. I guess what I am saying is whatever scale you are using, you must always strive to be musical and expressive, not just be satisfied with getting the right notes.

[afromoose]

interesting stuff!

[CSchlegel]

As promised, I have my Modes Across The Fretboard lessons updated to HD now:

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=370

I have also finished Practicing The Modes Of The Major Scale. It is 24 lessons long and has lots of fretboard diagrams and backing tracks.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=770

Enjoy!

[michaelsiao]

hi sir.. ahhm.. i have some question.. how can i use modes..?
can i solo the mode G ionian in chord progression G,, Bm,, C,, D..? or what is the proper way in using modes.. thx a lot sir..

[JOHN JAUNESE]

This is why I prefer the Classical Scale (Harmonic Minor) because it has no system of Modes (some pretend it does~). This single mode scale is based off of the Aolian mode, only with the altered raised 7th degree. This scale (mode) is considered the KING OF TONALITY, and most popular in Classical music.
Here is my fingering for all seven positions in F#m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uudCP59fRo8

[CSchlegel]

Diatonic modes are merely a concept of method that can be applied to a series of pitch specific sounds; in this case the major scale. I can't see any value in claiming this concept is weak. It is merely true. Some many find it valuable to think of the notes this way; some may not.

What does it mean to say it is displaced? :confused: Are you saying it is in the wrong place? Part of it is in the wrong place? If you mean it doesn't have a leading tone, then so what? Any scale or mode that doesn't contain a leading tone can be altered or modulated in order to contain one. Can you clarify this please?
This is why I prefer the Classical Scale (Harmonic Minor) because it has no system of Modes (some pretend it does~).

First, you have a preference for the sound of an altered form of the minor scale. That's great! It is valuable to know what one likes in order to play music one enjoys.

Second, in Classical music you will find multiple examples of the major scale, the natural minor scale, the melodic minor as well as the harmonic minor scale. It is misleading, at best, to label the hamonic minor scale as The Classical Scale.

Third, any scale can be viewed as a series of modes. For example, phrygian dominant is the fifth mode of harmonic minor. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by claiming this is not true. Especially because the next thing you post is ...
This single mode scale is based off of the Aolian mode, only with the altered raised 7th degree. This scale (mode) is considered the KING OF TONALITY, and most popular in Classical music.
You claim diatonic modes are weak and displaced, but you are acknowledging using one (aeolian), altering it, and it is a "mode scale". :confused:

In any event, if any scale is the "king" of tonality, it would have to be the major scale, which also contains a leading tone, which is part of a dominant V chord or diminished vii chord, therefore can be used to create tonal resolutions.

Here is my fingering for all seven positions in F#m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uudCP59fRo8
Wow, great technique! :) Ironically, in that video you are playing the modes of harmonic minor, an altered form of the natural minor scale, which can be viewed as an altered diatonic mode of the major scale.

Obviously you can play very well. I hope you can reassess the flaws in your conceptual approach and improve your thinking in order to raise it to the same level as your awesome physical technique & skills.

Best of success!

[JOHN JAUNESE]

way too many questions...I suggest the following readings for starters.

"A History of Western Music" 5th edition, chapters 1,2,3."
Groves
New Dictionary of Musicians "modes and scales section."

A General History of Music From The Earliest
Ages To The Present

"History of the Church Modes" by
Larry Mysz

The Melodic Minor was created to smooth out the vocal lines in choir music, as the Aug 2nd was not pleasant for vocal arrangements. I think it was Mozart who spear headed that effort. All variations of the minor scale are useful, and can actually help in chromatic usage. I like using the Hungarian minor allot as well as all Aolian based scales, but not all scales can be KING.

[JOHN JAUNESE]

Wow, great technique! :) Ironically, in that video you are playing the modes of harmonic minor

No no no...They are clearly labled POSITIONS in the video, not MODES.

MODERATOR WHERE ARE YOU?????

[JOHN JAUNESE]

I hope you can reassess the flaws in your conceptual approach and improve your thinking

MODERATOR : CAN YOU PLEASE READ THE INSULT ABOVE

I was simply trying to participate in a thread, and this person is out of control.
I have written articals for the Guitar Tricks news letter on modes and have been a member since 2003 and I don't feel his comments are justified.

[CSchlegel]

way too many questions...
Fair enough. Let's tackle one at a time.

Why do you say the harmonic minor scale has no system of modes?
I suggest the following readings for starters.
Yes, I've read those & other similiar works.

I don't remember any of them referring to harmonic minor as The Classical Scale or the King Of Tonality. Or reading that harmonic minor has no modes. But I simply might not remember it correctly. Is that info in one of those books?

The Melodic Minor was created to smooth out the vocal lines in choir music, as the Aug 2nd was not pleasant for vocal arrangements. I think it was Mozart who spear headed that effort.
I am aware of the origins of melodic minor. I was asking why you singled out only the harmonic minor scale when melodic minor and others are just as widely used in classical music.

Since JS Bach & GF Handel were brilliantly incorporating melodic minor into their choral works over 30 years before Mozart was born I think you might be mistaken on that. Although, Mozart also brilliantly used all the scales at his disposal!

I was simply trying to participate in a thread, and this person is out of control.
I am simply participating in this thread also. I am not "out of control".

There is no need for moderators. I am only asking honest questions based on your claims. There was no insult intended in my post. I am sorry if you took it that way. I am only trying to make sure the GT Music Theory forum has accurate info.

All good? :)

[Razbo]

Yay, drama! ;D JK! FWIW I thought Chris's comments were on point and ended with a fine compliment. I support his participation in the thread and personally like to see him challenged by one as knowledgeable as Mr. JAUNESE. It's refreshing to see points of theory debated from time to time.

[JOHN JAUNESE]

Why do you say the harmonic minor scale has no system of modes?

Yes, I've read those & other similiar works.


The Harmonic Minor is a single mode scale based off of the "aolian" mode. Although I have heard some pretty good uses of the "Flaminco scale" (based off of the phrygian).

You say you read everything and then some, but you seem to be confusing "modes" with "positions". I played all seven positions of the Harmonic minor in the video, and you called them modes? You see, all seven positions are of the same mode. Why are you calling each of the positions of the Harmonic minor scale a mode?

[CSchlegel]

The Harmonic Minor is a single mode scale based off of the "aolian" mode.
The Modes of the Harmonic Minor Scale:

1 Harmonic Minor
2 Locrian Natural 6
3 Ionian Augmented (Sharp 5)
4 Dorian Sharp 4 (AKA Romanian Minor, Ukranian Minor)
5 Phrygian Dominant
6 Lydian Sharp 2
7 Ultra Locrian (AKA Super Locrian Diminished)

http://docs.solfege.org:81/3.14/C/scales/har.html

The harmonic minor scale is indeed an altered form of the natural minor scale (aeolian). And we can make modes with it just like any other scale. We simply give each note of the scale a chance to start the sequence of notes and we are on our way.

This page names the modes of both melodic minor & harmonic minor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode#Other_types

This page shows the modes of harmonic minor, their typical names, and fretboard patterns:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25388105/Harmonic-Minor-With-Modal-Spellings-and-Chord-Scales

Clearly the harmonic minor scale has modes.

You say you read everything and then some, but you seem to be confusing "modes" with "positions". I played all seven positions of the Harmonic minor in the video, and you called them modes? You see, all seven positions are of the same mode. Why are you calling each of the positions of the Harmonic minor scale a mode?
While it is sometimes useful to use the word position to refer to a fretboard grouping (as this page does) it can be misleading because the word has another specific meaning in the context of guitar playing.

Specifically, it can refer to the lowest fret being used in any given musical passage. I've run into the problem myself when teaching & think it is important to make the distinction for students so they don't get confused.

"In common with other classical stringed instruments, classical guitar playing and notation use formal positions of the left hand. The 'nth position' means that the hand is positioned with the first finger over the nth fret."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_guitar_technique

I picked that page with the fretboard patterns labelled as position precisely because it does what you did by using the words position to be equated with mode. For example, in the video you are playing your first scale pattern with the second fret as the lowest fingered position. This leads to the possible confusion of telling a student:

Now play the first position (really the first "pattern" or mode) of the scale at the second position. Start the second position (really the second "pattern" or mode) at the fourth position.

Then if you change keys you've got another confusing set of instructions that conflicts with the first set!

So I think it is less confusing for students if instructors reserve the word position specifically for the lowest fingered fret in any given pattern.

Play the first pattern or mode at the second position (fret), play the second pattern or mode at the fourth fret. And so on.

Make sense?! :)

Don't get me wrong, I've made the same mistake plenty of times, so I am also trying to be on guard against it. Learning the guitar can be confusing & complex enough without the student having to parse conflicting instructor info.

I am assuming you are a guitar instructor or at least are trying to get people to view your instructional material. And you are welcome to post here. But, since I am an instructor here I want to make sure this forum contains accurate info. That is why I am making these points. I am not trying to "start an argument" with you, or "pick on you without reason".

I am sincerely & honestly concerned with being accurate and presenting truthful info about music theory here. I can only assume you have similiar goals. Otherwise why would you be posting here, right?

And FWIW, I did compliment your playing because I think it is outstanding technique! :)

[JOHN JAUNESE]

Let me explain,
When I say the Harmonic minor only has one mode, what I am saying is, there is only one "USEFUL" mode.
Can you honestly tell your students that you write songs in the Super Locrian Diminished mode and say with a strait face that your tonality is centered around that mode? I mean technically any one of the modes could be incorporated, but it is the tonality that I am referring to as true tonal center is concerned.

[Lordathestrings]

Gentlemen;

Please be a little more temperate in your responses.

Passion in music is a requirement.

Discussion of theory needs to be kept civil.

[CSchlegel]

Gentlemen;

Please be a little more temperate in your responses.
Yes, sir. Understood.

[CSchlegel]

When I say the Harmonic minor only has one mode, what I am saying is, there is only one "USEFUL" mode.
OK, so you agree it has modes, but you do not find it useful to think of them as modes, but instead one scale with different patterns/positions. Is that accurate?

Can you honestly tell your students that you write songs in the Super Locrian Diminished mode and say with a strait face that your tonality is centered around that mode?
As a student in jazz & classical I was expected to know, be able to play, use & compose with all of them. As an instructor I only teach that sort of advanced thing to people with an appropriately advanced interest.

Phrygian dominant (the fifth mode of harmonic minor) is in particular widely used in popular music. Everything from Malmsteen to Metallica to Mario Bros background music. And of course a lot of classical & romantic music.

I frequently use the modes of harmonic minor & melodic minor as a way of outlining or soloing over ii-V-i changes in jazz standards. Of course, it doesn't really matter how many people use them or not. My main point is that they exist, we can identify them.
I mean technically any one of the modes could be incorporated, but it is the tonality that I am referring to as true tonal center is concerned.
Sure, modal and tonal are two different things. Modal playing doesn't necessarily have to contain a candence, a leading tone with a tonal resolution. Tonal playing does. Harmonic minor & melodic minor exist as a means of altering the natural minor scale in order to achieve tonality from the natural minor scale.

But the major scale is the primary source of tonal playing. Harmonic & melodic minor are derived from the relative minor. And as mentioned before, one can always alter any given mode to contain a leading tone if desired.

It seems the primary disagreement here is that you started by claiming harmonic minor does not have modes. It is true you don't have to refer to them, you can just play the scale & say, "I'm just playing one scale, but sequencing it differently by starting on each note in turn."

But in essence, that is precisely what a mode is.

Now it seems you agree harmonic minor does have modes, but you do not find them useful. Is that accurate? :)

[Guitar Tricks Manager]

Guys, let's cool it with the bickering, please. This is a valid thread and we don't want all this mud hurling, or I'll have to pull it.
:cool:

[JOHN JAUNESE]

Yes, I agree.
There is no absolutes in music, there are so many variables. Those who think they know everything, really don't understand the concepts. I have been playing guitar for 33 years and the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. For any theory has exceptions, or could be proven wrong. For example there are a few modes that I find useless, and yet another has written a magnificent piece of music or passage using it. So when I make a statement that there is only one useful mode in the Harmonic minor, I am speaking in broad terms, not condemning those who defy the odds, and actually find the use of such modes. I know some Jazz players that say they in in this mode then that mode and what have you, and they are not....

I put this together for Guitar tricks news letter about 7 years ago...it kind of explains my thinking on modes:

The system of modes is one of the most misunderstood,
and mis taught area of practical theory. The most
common misconception is that the "modes are just
different starting points of the Major scale". Which
is completely misleading. Truth is, each of the seven
modes is a scale unto itself. That's it! Just like any
other scale, each mode has it's own tonic, or root.
The only difference between the modes is the degree of
tonality. It's impossible for me to make a short
history report of the modes, so this article will be
kind of crude, and to the point. Hope you enjoy it.

Other than the seven tone Diatonic scale created by
the Greek mathematician Pythagoras in 550 B.C. The
first usage, and writings about the "musical modes"
was approximately 350 B.C. That is when the philosophy
writings of Plato, and Aristotle included large
sections that describe the affect of the different
musical modes on mood, and on character formation.

In Aristotle's "politics" he says that the Mixolydian
mode can make you sad, and grave. The Dorian mode
settles the mind, and is gravest, and
manliest, and avoids extremes. The phrygian mode
inspires enthusiasm, and is exiting, and emotional,
and the best for expressing "Bacchic fury". The
relaxed modes are the lydian, and Ionian which make
people stupid.

Plato identified the Lydian, and Mixolydian as being
for Maudlin drinking songs. He called the Ionian
relaxing, the Dorian the real Greek mode, and said it
creates a feeling of sincerity. Plato also stated
that the Dorian would remain legal for use in war, and
crisis. The phrygian for peace, dignity, temperance,
and worship. Plato wanted to have government control
using the modes, and did not allow a multiplicity of
notes, and instruments were only tuned to approved
modes. Modes of the Plato Aristotle Era were numbered
mode 1, mode 2, and so on.

Four hundred years later (50 A.D.) the Christians
begin using the modes in worship. Different modes were
used at different times for parts of their services.
In 520 A.D. Manlius Boethius, an Italian philosopher,
translated Aristotle's on logic into latin. Boethius
embraced Arisotle's concept of mood creation, and
character formation using the modes, and what was now
called "the church modes" were matched up against
ancient Greek modes for ascribed meanings, which were
then used for church services.

In 600 A.D. Pope Gregory the Ist, classified all the
music used in the church. While it is likely that
Gregory knew of Boethius assignment of ancient Greek
names to the modes used for church music. The church
continued to use the numbered system. It was not until
about 900 A.D. that other authors began to apply
Boethius's ancient Greek names to the medieval church
modes.

The later Middle Ages, or Gothic Era, which lasted
from 1150 to 1450, saw the rise of music with multiple
voices called "polyphonic music". Trouble in the
church gave rise to non-religious music. Towards the
end of the Gothic Era, the character of music changed.
Composers began to use imitative techniques, together
with harmonies crafted from thirds, and sixths.

The Renaissance (1450-1600) is thought to be a "period
of awakening", and music continued to evolve.
Instrumental music became an art form. The church
modes now consisted of eight modes, evenly split
authentic, and plagal modes of the "Gregorian Chant".
They consisted of the Dorian(authentic),
HypoDorian(plagal), Phrygian(authentic),
HypoPhrygian(plagal), Lydian(authentic),
HypoLydian(plagal), Mixolydian(authentic), and the
HypoMixolydian (plagal). All of the Medieval church
music was based on the HypoLydian mode which is known
today as the Ionian or natural major scale. The other
seven modes were used for meditative chant, and to
tell sad stories. It wasn't until the 16th century
that the Aoelian, HypoAoelian, Ionian, and HypoIonian
were added to the modes. The sixthteenth century is
known as the "golden age of polyphony" because of the
emergence of the polyphonic (vocal) music. There was
now a definite tendency toward major, and minor, which
system formulated after 1600.

In roughly 1675, the modes were considered to be
permutations of the Ionian, and Aoelian, which the
Western Major/Minor scale system was based. That's
when the modes became familiarized into what we know,
and use today. The Greek names became convenient
labels for particular scales. Although the Locrian
mode was not used much at all prior to this, the
Locrian was incorporated into the modal system. Many
books talk about the ancient modal system, and do not
acknowledge this black sheep mode, except to say "it
was not used because of it's diminished 5th", and
nothing more is said. The Locrian was only a
theoretical possibility till this time in history.

Although it took several hundred years to move from
polyphonic music to
the homophonic idea of the major-minor scale system,
centuries were needed to move from open fifths,
fourths, and octaves to emphasis on the thirds, and
sixths. Melody became asymmetrical, tonality moved to
polytonality, and the twelve-tone system, and serial
technique were invented.

The names of all the modes in this new system became
commonly known as the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian,
Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian. Although
seven modes still exist up to this time, only the
Major(Ionian), and Minor(Aeolian) are considered
suitable for Western Music. The composition of
polyphonic vocal music put the church modes under the
impact of standardization. The major and minor modes
were the only modes thought to be capable of exerting
a tonic function.

The Ionian mode is very effective at producing a
strong tonic function. The Aeolian is often used as
the final in a deceptive cadence. It brings
resolution, but the feeling is still there that a full
resolution has not occurred, and that the only way to
achieve this is by the arrival of the Ionian. Thus the
tendency of the Diatonic is toward the Ionian, rather
than the aeolian mode. So once we are in the Aeolian
it is quite natural to drift back to the Ionian.

The Aeolian mode is generally avoided in common
practice classical music, because it's cadence is less
decisive than the Harmonic Minor scale's. But the
softer, and more relaxed sound of the Aeolian
tonality, has been used by many twentieth century
composers. The Aeolian is also found in modern pop,
and dance music. The Harmonic minor is well known in
classical music, because it is the harmonic foundation
of minor mode music. It's tonality is very powerful,
and unambiguous. There are seven modes of the Harmonic
minor just as with the Diatonic, but none of the modes
in the Harmonic minor have common names, and it is
only the Harmonic minor (in it's Aeolian form) that is
tonally effective. The tonality of the Melodic minor
is even weaker than that of the Aeolian. However the
two modes of the Melodic scale (ascending melodic
minor, and the descending melodic major scale) can
both be considered "melodic improvements to the
Harmonic minor. Classical composers have still mostly
ignored the Melodic major.

Well what about the other five Diatonic modes? And why
do people still choose to use them in spite of the
Major/Minor system? Well, Jazz players like to use the
Dorian to improvise on minor seventh chords, oh, and
"Thriller by Michael Jackson is in the Dorian mode.
Play this scale over a min7, or min6th(13) chord. And
it sounds very good. Jazz players use the Mixolydian
scale to improvise on Dom 7 chords. The Mixolydian is
very major sounding until you get to the seventh
degree. Use 7th or Dom 7 chords when playing in the
Mixolydian. The Lydian mode is difficult to use for a
melody, unless you only use the sub dominant as a
leading tone for the dominant. Bartok wrote a short
piece in the Lydian mode. I read once that the theme
to the "Simpson's" theme was made with the Lydian mode
in mind. Play the Lydian over Maj7, or Maj7(#11)
chords. As for the Locrian, we referred to as the
"black sheep" mode earlier. The dead-center position
of the dominant make this mode very unmusical. I read
that not one folk song in the Locrian mode had ever
been documented by an ethnomusicologist. But without
this mode the symmetry of the Major/Minor system would
be destroyed. Play the Locrian over a min7flat 5
chord. Next, and last, we have the Phrygian mode,
which has been called the Flamenco mode, because of
it's Spanish sound. Modern artists like Al DiMiola,
and Ritchie Blackmore(Gates of Babylon) use this very
special sounding scale. This scale works best when
played over a suspended 4th chord, or Dom 7(sus4)
chords.

So it seems we have not completely banned these five
modes from The Major/Minor system. They are open for
experimentation by anyone. However the Major/Minor
system has changed music forever. It has made us less
modal, as the use of chromatic notes increased to
facilitate the advent of equal temperament.

Resources for this writing was inspired by "A History
of Western Music" 5th edition, chapters 1,2,3." Groves
New Dictionary of Musicians" modes and scales
section."A General History of Music From The Earliest
Ages To The Present""History of the Church Modes" by
Larry Mysz

[Joe Pinnavaia]

Modes are a tough subject no doubt. Liked the article above about modes - very nice.
I teach my students the modes in major and minor and then once they are used to those fingerings I teach them how to link positions together and expand the entire fretboard to use the whole scale. Focusing on certain positions will give you a certain effect in relation of melody to harmony but most students starting out don't really want to focus on it that much. They just want to play. Also notes repeat over the fretboard so I try to make it stupid simple for my students to put to use the scale they are working on in a musical situation. So really I try to look at the fretboard as a whole and not chunks. It's more about being free with it than using certain modes over certain scales.

A sample from my tutorial on Modes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Xj-xGpLhw

Joe Pinnavaia
www.digital-nations/artists/testtuberhino
www.guitarlessonsbuffalony.com

[William Wolfe]

My favorite mode is the IOMMIAN MODE. It's very useful in blues, rock and metal styles and it's quite dark and depressing in mood. A heavy vibrato technique and proper use of power chords are key. It can be a bit painful to master, as you have to cut off your fingers to play it properly. :)

[Jerry Dylan]

I finally understand modes whenever my playing is a little stale all i have to do is come back here and try a mode.Dorian sounds great as does the phrgian mode and for blues i throw in Ionian or mixolydian thanks.

[JonChorba]

My favorite mode is the IOMMIAN MODE. It's very useful in blues, rock and metal styles and it's quite dark and depressing in mood. A heavy vibrato technique and proper use of power chords are key. It can be a bit painful to master, as you have to cut off your fingers to play it properly. :)

lol. nice:)

[Ben Lindholm]

I put this together for Guitar tricks news letter about 7 years ago...it kind of explains my thinking on modes: ARTICLE...


Great article! I really enjoyed reading it!

[JOHN JAUNESE]

Great article! I really enjoyed reading it!

I had allot of source material to borrow from, thanks :D

[JOHN JAUNESE]

It has come to my attention some evidence that what we refer to as the Ionian mode (major scale), has been used for over 6000 years. Recently, references from ancient Sumerian Text have revealed. 20,000 clay tablets with such references to Music, Medicine, and other. These Sumarian writers also explain, that they recieved this knowledge from the Annunaki. Which translates to "from the heavens they came", which may indicate an advanced race of beings with the Music teachings. truth is stranger than fiction, in this case.

[Sgt Tee]

Let us not forget, Playing guitar is fun!

[Paul Moliukov]

Hi guys,

Just checked out this thread and found it awesome...
I personally use my own approach while learning and practicing scales. I associate a certain color of rainbow to each scale (ionian - red, lydian - orange etc) and tie scales with related chords (Xmaj7 comes from ionian and lydian, X7 from mixo, Xm dim7 from locrian, Xm7 from frygian, dorian, aeolian). Pretty cool for memorizing the emotional shade and harmonic relationship for each scale:)

[greyghoast17]

Ok this may be a question that has been beat to death but it's where I'm at musically. There are 7 basic notes or key's A B C D E F G (not counting sharps or flats). It seems to me that most rock, pop or metal songs are in either a major or a minor key. Taking the lesson available at guitar tricks on modes, which is in A Major and learning the modes in the key of A down the fretboard- Ionian, Dorian, Phyrgian, Lydian, ect...how do I learn and memorize all those different modal finger patterns in all keys both major and minor? is it simply hammering it out and repetition one key at a time like the lesson in A major. At some point does "hearing the sound" of the notes played in a different order over and over, is that the trick. There are so many different finger patterns for each key and mode down the fretboard, Major and Minor. Is it memorization or hearing the sound? this is my obstacle now. If there are any lessons hear at guitar tricks that one suggest's I will check them out. But I do have some saved and bookmarked already. Any suggestions?

[joshbeetler]

I love how Pentatonics act so perfectly as a skeleton to all the Modes.

Once you get familiar with the tiny differences between the modes, you can interlace them with pentatonics and use the notes of the different modes interchangebly.

You can some really beautifuly/outthere stuff using modes, chromatics and pentatonics.

[CSchlegel]

I missed this before!
...how do I learn and memorize all those different modal finger patterns in all keys both major and minor?
... Is it memorization or hearing the sound?

You've kind of answered your own question there. It is a combination of playing it and hearing it. After playing it & hearing it, practicing it, memorizing it over & again, if you are paying attention, at a certain point it becomes second nature & you being to hear the modes when they are being used.

This tutorial deals with listening for the unique sound of each mode as well as shows a neat trick for using the pentatonic boxes to help simplify playing & memorizing them.

http://www.guitartricks.com/tutorial.php?input=770

Go slowly, take your time, be patient with yourself. It's not something that happens quickly. But as long as you keep working on it, it will eventually happen!