Speed for talent?

[educatedfilm]

If you are Joe satraini fan stop reading now. You may lose your temper (or even the control of your bowls). This is meant to be a slightly more light-hearted look at the guitar world, so please dont get upset it's only my opinion...ahem..here we go:
I was thinking about the best album i had heard, and i honestly couldn't come to a desicsion. I then though about the worst album i had heard, straight away the answers was "Surfing with the alein", i know joe satriani is great guitarist, but this album was cheesy poop.
I found the some of the most profound (and best sounding) stuff, was some of the John Lee Hooker stuff (some of it's alittle depressing too), some My bloody Valentine, some Pixies, some Joy division...you get the idea. Are not that good on guitar. They're not that technical, but produce some truely arresting stuff.
So the question is what is speed without talent?(surfing with alein?). I know the Joe and Mr Vai are guitarists guitarists, but the question begs to be asked... why the hell would anyone want to sound like the cheesy guitar intro to "hang time" or those crappy programs on "drag racing"? I know it makes you a better guitarist to be ABLE to play it, but a lot of poeple try to emulate it.
[this is only oppinion, so please dont take it too seriously ;)]

[chris mood]

I appreciate all styles of music & think your totally wrong on the Joe Satriana thing. It's people like Satch that make rock guitar a legit music form, it gives people aspiration to become better & realize there's more to rock music then pentatonic scales & 145 progressions.
When a student comes to me & says he's inspired by satch & Vai I'm excited, because I know they are going to work hard & have a Zest for learning. What really p**#**$!! me off is when a student comes to me & says he's inspired by Nirvana & all they wanna do is slam power-chords around, you can't even get them to play a freakin scale.
I agree, I think Satriana's playing can be alittle egotistical at times, but it's better then the other extreme. Personally I like guys that can utilize both speed and compassion into there playing, like Larry Carlton and Robben Ford
Also, don't compare Satch to John Lee Hooker, that's like comparing apples to oranges

[Zeppelin]

i will appreciate any musician, who has a real reason to take a guitar in his hands and make a record. that means no kurt cobain, and not all those travis kind of bands that you can see around latley
i dont think everybody should be like satriani, and i dont like shredding much, but i think he deserves all the respect, because he is a great guitar player, no matter what
especialy when today guitar player is anyone who can play 2 chords in a row

[educatedfilm]

"Personally I like guys that can utilize both speed and compassion into there playing" amen to that!
About people learning to play guitar, i just dont know i'm afraid.
"Also, don't compare Satch to John Lee Hooker, that's like comparing apples to oranges"
Oh..hmmm... i wasnt comparing them directly, it was just an example to show that being a great guitarist isn't about arpegegaiting like there's no tommorow, it's about convaying feelings (this is where the line between ability to play and songwriting begins to blur a little).
Hand on heart, do you think that "surfing with the alien" is a good album?, or something for people to pratice thier skills along to. I've got nothing against the guy....
"i will appreciate any musician, who has a real reason to take a guitar in his hands and make a record. " amen to that too!
But what has every advanced guitarist got against Kurt Cobain, his stuff is simple, and it's catchy and moving, what more could you ask for (besides improved guitaring ablity).
"but i think he deserves all the respect, because he is a great guitar player," i do agree with that, but no matter how good you are there's no excuse for "s.w.t.a".

One of my favourite songs is "sometimes [liecster piggot]" by james, and that song only has ONE CHORD, it's hard to imagine at first, but listen to it, it's really a narative with some cool music in the background, and it work really well.

[Led Zeppelin]

Speed cant ever be a substitute for melody. Think of Wonderwall. Simple 4 chord tune. Classic. Then think of Vai or Satriani. They might spend ages constructing this tune, but it still sounds like wank to anyone from outside the guitar community.

What about the Beatles? 90% of their songs are basic chord progressions. What does that make them.

[chris mood]

I like Nirvana, I thought Nevermind was a great album, what I don't like is all the kids who picked up the guitar afterwards cause they wanted to be like him. In their minds Cobain was a reason to not learn how to play correctly. You have to learn the rules before you can break them.
Next thing I knew every 13yr kid who could play a power chord had a band. Nirvana was cool, they where not.
I'm just saying I think Joe offers a positive inspiration on what the guitar is capable of if you put your mind to it. I got nothing against a good 2 chord song, my problem is when that's ALL YOU CAN DO.

A couple of years ago the great guitar guru Pat Martino did an album with different guitar guys sitting in. Of all the great players that where on the album the one that impressed him the most was J.S. I believe the quote was " I don't know who he is, but that boy sure can play.

As far as what I think about Surfing....I think he got his point across. It was a rock guitar album about rock guitar, and nothing else, and when u judge it on those terms I think he did a food job.

[BadHorsie]

It's times like these when I really wish Bofatron, or The Infinite Ego as he now goes by, still posted here. Bofatron was and still is a big inspiration to me when it comes to the guitar. Check out his website and read some of his ideas' on shred http://www.shredlikehell.com . Bof, where'd ya go man?!

[Hootayah]

Satch and Joe Satriani are the same person???
Holy crap. All this time I thought Satch was some new guitar player everybody was talking about.
Jeez...this is almost as embarassing as when I found out that In Excess and Inxs were the same band.

[educatedfilm]

I couldn't agree more about 13yr olds playing in bands, using nothing but power chords (and the same setting for every song). Remeber though to climb the ladder you have to start from the bottom. i mean i got into guitar because of poeple like Nirvana, but within a month i was bored of power chords, and i started to look differnt sounds. i'd like to think i've come some way since then
i think my friend was right in saying its harder to come up with something SIMPLE and ORIGINAL sounding than anything else...
oh great my computres gone!
it's typing back to front

[BluesShredder]

I dont remember the story well...

When Mozart performed a piece of music for a King (i think)
the King told him that it was great but he asked him why he played so many notes, and Mozart replied that the number of notes was correct, not too many not too few.

Vai and Satriani know exactly what they do, if we dont get it its not their fault, its our. They dont play fast to show what they can do (although some shredders do that)
they just have the ability to play everything they imagine,
like Hendrix did.
Imagine to hear the most perfect solo in your mind but not have the technique to play it!!!

About Surfing With The Alien, its not that techniqual anymore, and i dont really like it not because its shredding
but beacuse i just dont like the songs...

Educatedfilm listen to Satriani's The Extremist, or at least some songs from that album, I recommend New Blues and then we can talk if Satriani is a good composer or not.

About the question what is better? speed or playing simple songs like the Beatles did?

Do you remember a guitar player named Stevie?



[Edited by BluesShredder on 09-18-2001 at 07:45 AM]

[educatedfilm]

hmmm... intresting you should mention hendrix....
Hendrix isn't seen by alot of people as being technically able, which i think is just plain not true...
I know what your saying about being able to d exactly what you want.
At leat some one agree with me taht surfing is pretty dire, i didn't think it was bad becasue of the technique, but more of the very cheeseyness of it...
I'll have a listen to what you've recomended me to, (after all i fell like i'm missing out, the way poeple talke about satch).
There's one classical guitarist who i've heard, and has truely impressed me more than anyone else, and i dont even know his name! He did a piece called "heart song", which basically sounds like one guitar doing the picking parts, another doing the fast chordy rythem, and one doing fairly fast natural harmonics, and it was all one guitar. I mean i've seen Rob Johns play, and he's one of the best classical guitarists in the country, and his set was brillaint, but it wasn't as fast or had somany natuaral harmonics...

[chris mood]

I think that's great that your listeing to classical music for inspiration, that is what I'm trying to get at here. Satch, to some people, is an inspiration to seek out the total capability of the instrument.
When someone comes to me & says they like Satch, & I tell them to check out Segovia or John Williams their open to it.When I try to get a alt rocker to expand his listening skills I'm usually faced with contempt. Life is a musical journey, and there's so many talented individuals out there that many people don't hear about because music education is at such an all time low that most peoples ears can't appr. what there doing.
Music is about emotion, and the #1 emotion I hear from rock music today is anger. Anger is a pretty easy emotion to emulate.It's not hard to write an angry song. Now you may defend this by saying it's a sign of the times, but up to last Tues. the times in Amer. have been pretty good.
I say it is the fault of the Edu. system. Budgets for music programs have been cut & sometimes Eliminated, & Amer. veiw of music ed. is at an all time low, they would rather throw there money into Athletics.
Remember that during Mozarts time that music was considered pop music, & 60 yrs ago Charlie Parker & the bebop movement was considered pop. Can you see the decline from Parker to Limp Bizkit?
So if listening to Satch is gonna inspire someone to expand his listening pleasure thats fine w/me, cause I know commercial radio isn't

[educatedfilm]

hmmm... i feel a bit stupid now, the whole point of my thread was to say that emotion is numero Uno, but it looks like everyone already knew that...doh!
I dont listen to as mcuh classical guitar as i'd like to, and dont really know that much, but find classical and celtic alot more "involving" than listening to someone shreding their fingers off...
The angry music thing has been going for a long while, it's just got popular lately, and i dont think there is a real reason for it, it's just fashion, and thats one of musics big problem is its massivly affected by what is popular so you get one group who do something really ace, and then everyone else tries to do the same... saying that though the music scene at the minute int' that bad, ignoring some of the rap-matal, nu-metal,and new-school punk...
I dont "get" bebop, i dont mind jazz, but bebop sound more agressive and abrassive, i'd like some guidance on the particular topic...
I know this is another thread altogether, but in the Satch stuff the guitar has the "leading role" if you will, but in some of the stuff i listen to, it's complementry to everything else, but you might get away with out it...
the cool thing is about music it comes down to taste in the end...(which really kills this debate...DOh!)
(didn't charlie parker die of a herion over dose?)

"think of Vai or Satriani. They might spend ages constructing this tune, but it still sounds like wank to anyone from outside the guitar community."
Zepplin has got it spot on there... we're guitarists, but we don't just play with our selves (ahem) or other guitarists, we entertain teh non-guitarists too, and they out number us... so whats the point of playing so fast that no-one gets it.

[Bardsley]

One of my friends started to play guitar because, in his words, he "wanted to be Kurt Cobain". He now listens to lots of Hendrix, lots of Bach, lots of Johan Williams and Segovia, John Lee Hooker, Pearl Jam, etc. So not all people who want to be like Nirvana stay in that mindset.

[Alan Moorhouse]

I think it was by an English acoustic guitarist called Gordon Giltrap - awesome player, good song.

[chris mood]

dig the Steely Dan insert !!

[stratman42]

I have to agree about the 13 yr old in bands thing. I myself am only 15, and yes, i am in a band. hwever, we do not model ourselves on nirvana or any of this pop punk crap. We pride ourselves on having acctual talent, and using it. We are doing our best to mix neoclassical suff like muse with intelligent punk and classic metal (including solos), putting ouslves a cut above the rest. since we started our band 1 1/2 yrs ago, about ten other new bands have sprung up at our school, all doing the same talentless stuff as each other, and not even writing their own songs, but claiming to be better than us! this is people who only started plaing becaus they thought it would be col to be in a band, whereas we had already been playing for a long time in orchestras and having lessons for ages. we had already proven we had talent, and only took on board others who had done the same. This is how it should be, but sod's law is that we'll probably split up to go to uni's and one of these upstarters will get famous. Such is the commercial world of music.

[chris mood]

You made a good point....people should play music for the right reasons, because they love it, it's part of them, and they desire the creative output, not because they think it would be cool to be in a band. Music is art, and is something that needs to be constantly self-examined and nutured, and should grow with you as you grow, constantly evolving. Bands will come and go but talent is something no one can ever take away from you.

[billcrawford]

Time out, guys, this isn't some heavy psychological evaluation.
Look again at the question, listen to some original Django Rheinhardt and tell me how the hell he played that music with 2 fingers of his left hand burned to f**k.

[dev]

satch is a gret player but at the same time look at eric johnson . he does things that blow minds and i like him.
so my conclusion is every guitarist got their own style.