america under attack !!!!

[metalbob69]

a real messed up thing that happend today pisses me off let me know how you guys feel about this.....may those people rest in peace and those basterds pay for what they did...

[Snacktruck]

Those bastards do need to pay, and anyone else who was envolved should also be on the hit list. we should hit them hard. And what pissed me off was that my football game was cancelled.

[Christoph]

America was attacked, and thousands of innocent people died.

I can only hope that the leadership in Washington can get past the rhetoric and the platitudes and form a powerful response.

[ekstasis16]

This is a huge deal. Never has there been a terrorist attack of this magnitude in history. And because relations have been on the edge with many middle-east countries for so long, we need to be very careful with this. I'm scared to see what President Bush is going to do. I think retaliation caould be a mistake if we let it get out of hand. A real war could open up very easily. It makes me realize just how vulnerable we really are, and all this talk of security and safety is mostly just an illusion.

It's easy to point fingers and blame people because of anger and American pride, but we need to realize that these kinds of attacks are brought about by small groups of radicals and not entire countries, even though they harbor these terrorists and there is a general hatred for the U.S. in that region. Knowing that Osama Bin-Laden may be a leader for many of these groups, we should definately go after him and any associated people, but we need to be very careful about it. If our emotions get the best of us, then we lose sight of reality and no one wins.

We should learn from this event and try to strengthen our weak areas while taking necessary precautions to prevent future incidents like this. If we as a nation and a world do not change our current methods of dealing with each other, then things will only escalate because of retaliation. Look at what's happening between Israelites and Palestinians. It's just an endless circle of payback and revenge. It solves nothing. If we don't change, then all the lives lost today will have been wasted and dishonored.

May God be with the victims and their families of this horrible tragedy.

- Erik Hagen (ekstasis16@hotmail.com)

[Edited by ekstasis16 on 09-12-2001 at 02:27 AM]

[educatedfilm]

It is extremly sad that so many poeple died, and no notice was given before hand.
Lets not get hasty in blaming the middle east, the last big terrorist attack was Mc Vay, and he killed 125+ poeple, and this also got blamed on the middle east at first, so please don't belive in all that you hear at the minute.

"Never has there been a terrorist attack of this magnitude in history. "
-1.5 million inoccent iraqi citizens have died under the santions/ bombing over the last ten years, and no-one bats an eye lid. THIS is the worst terrorist attack in history.

God rest the souls of the poeple who died.

One last thing, poeple are talking about action already. You may have not noticed that the president was hiding in a nuclear bunker. This is alot more serious than you think. This is a suicidal group (no one knows how big, could have been just the group yesterday, could be more), extremly similar to the kamikazi pilots in the second world war, and there is no way to fight someone willing to die.

"Look at what's happening between Israelites and Palestinians"
To be honest my freind it's hard to find neurtal and fair reporting on the suject, but the mortality figures show the plaestinains are getting kicked in the teeth.

God bless.

[educatedfilm]

There are reports that the world trade center was evacuated quite well, meaning alot of poeple got out, so the fatalities aren't as high as they could have been. Iknow this is no concellation, but it some good news.

[skee1]

I agree with Chris


Mark

[Zeppelin]

As a citizen of Israel, who knows what terror is about very well, first of all i want to tell all the Americans, we are with you in this war against the terror, and may the god help all the victims of this terror act, hopefuly this will be somehow the last terror attack of its kind
the second thing i must to say, is that in the fight against terror there IS such a thing as right and wrong sides, there is no reason for anyone in this world to kill innocent people, and from our long expirience with the terror, the people behind it understand only the words of powerfull reaction, and that's why in my opinion the USA has to use all of their military might against the people responsible for this act of terror

educatedfilm: the palestinians dont get kicked in the teeth, Israel did try to solve the problem in peacful way, which turned out to be the wrong way, because even when we were in the middle of negotiations cars were blowing up in the middle of our cities, like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. in case you didnt watch the news, or somehow missed it, the palestinians went to the streets yesterday and shown their happiness because thousands of americans were hurt, all this while only because of america the PLO exist anyway. those terror muslim based groups are against everybody, this is no matter of israel or usa or whatever anymore, it is fundametalistic islam against the rest of the world

[educatedfilm]

I urge poeple to stay calm! This isn't gonna be solved by one strike. please think it through, this could very realistcally end as another veitnam. Osama Ben laden is being blamed, which is what expected, he was blamed for oklahoma (Mc Vaye was responsible) and he's being blamed for this. They've arrested four/ five poeple, exactly the same as oklahoma when as sirean man was arrested within 24 hours, and it was the wrong guy.

Zepplin: the palastinains ARE getting it very badly. There is no excuse to why they are 2Nd class citizens. There is no excuse for the exsistance settelment on the westbank which are illegal by international law. There is no excuse for isreal and (unfortunatly) the US pulling out of the south africa summit on Rasicm. There is no excuse to why fully armoured soldier should shoot with live amunition at kids.There is no reason to build roads wich cut through what little land the palestians are crammed into, which basically act like mini Berlin walls, as they can cross them or go near them. That's why they shoot at drivers. THere is no excuse to give jewish settlers weapons, and let them "patrol" arab areas. There is no excuse for isreal to deny the UN acess to investigate the use of force.
THE plo is a token group, it has NO POWER. this has been proved by the fact that isreal has put pen to paper and then gone, and nobody has said a thing (eg the OSLO peace accord, promised palastinains an independant state, by May 2000, where is this?). It is very likely that if US wasn't so connected to isreal this wouldn't happen. Anyway what do we get back from Isreal, that warrants so much tax payers money? JAVA oranges?


Ofcourse there going to celebrate, it's because of us that they are 2nd class citizens, and we fund the poeple on their land. So called "charites" help to raise money to keep this rasict state going, and we sell them weapons.
I belive humans are humans, no matter the colour or religon, and islam is a religion (very similar to judaism, which is something that jews and muslims deny, even though there are some many clear parralells), and it condems attacks on civilains as murder (which it is).This should not be blamed on a religion!


[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-12-2001 at 12:31 PM]

[ekstasis16]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not start bad-mouthing Israel. We may be allies, but this is what happens in times of war. That region is upset with the U.S. because we are such a big world power; very developed, and we have been complete assholes to each other over the years. And even though many of the countries there or many of the people there are rejoicing at the attack yesterday, they are still innocent people and retaliating against them would make the U.S. no better. I hope the American government is trying to find out which radical group was actually involved in this, and bring them to 'justice', whatever that means. It would be typical if they make someone a scapegoat just to satisfy the American people and make us feel like justice has been served.

[educatedfilm]

I urge poeple to stay calm! There are solutions that don't involve bombing countries. The talaban have said they'de hand over Ben Laden if there is enough evidence to show he's guilty (which at the moment there isn't, just sensationalist sepeculation to sell newspapers). Give them the chance to do so, this could all be solved with out trajedy if we act sensibly.
There is still the probability of Americans being responsible (let's be honest capitilism and all that stands for it isn't very popular at the minute whith some americans/canadians, you only need to see the may-day riots for that).

"and bring them to 'justice', whatever that means. It would be typical if they make someone a scapegoat just to satisfy the American people and make us feel like justice has been served."
This is absolutly true.
THere is no reason not to "bad mouth" isreal, that country has one of the worst human rights records, and has a hell of a lot more enemies than we have, which means we get dragged into this (if it turns out to be linked to the middle east). We also side with them, we've yet to take any action on anything that isreal has done wrong, other than some token jestures, like when it invades 100meters of an arab area we just condemed it, we didn't actaully do anything.

[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-12-2001 at 01:00 PM]

[Zeppelin]

Israel's civil rights bad records???
look on all the countries around man... why should i respect any declaration, when all my enemies dont respect it?? people from IDF who were in syrian prisons during the wars came back totaly broken mentaly and physicaly, there is no reason for us not to act in the same way against syrians and other arabians in our prisons...
dont forget that israeli arabians have their own parties, and they are members of our parlament, and you can hear them every few weeks saying they want israel to be destroyed... man we are not the bad guys here.. we were given this land by the UN, the muslims never wanted to accept it, so they just started to make more and more wars. did you know that the leader of the christian phalangs that was responsible for the massacre in sabra and shatillah was later a minister in lebanon's parlament??? so how can they blame sharon at anything???
open your eyes.. leave all the human rights alone for the second, because there are no humans against us all but only cold blood killers.
look what's going on in russia.. for years they supported arabian aggressions and now they suffering from it themselves.. you can always blame them with thing, and the yugoslavian and anyone else, but the fact is: you have muslims sooner or later you'll have terror

[Zeppelin]

"Shooting at unarmed kids"????
in case you didnt know it israeli army IS made of kids, im 18 in another half year, and i'm going to serve my country
and what do you expect from soildgers to do when molotov ****teils and stones are thrown at them???? to take stones and to throw them back or maybe redraw????
they send their kids to throw stones, only because they have dozens of them as so they dont care if one or five of them are dead.... they dont use regular army not because they are so nice, but because they dont have one. they use any possible weapon they can, and the reason for plo being weak is the fact that most of the palestinians support other terrorist organizations and not plo
probably as well you dont know what is the definition of racism if you call israel racist country... israel WAS NOT THE FIRST to start the bloody mess in the region, since 1920 the arabians here, who mostly sold their lands to the jews, are using their favorite weapon against others: terror
the position of the arabians in israel is because they were never loyal to this country, and guess what we dont want to be burned and choked with gaz again, so we want a jewish state, not an another muslim one
what is so racist about nation wanting to have their own country??? that is what zionism is about nothing more..
judaism and islam ARE NOT ALIKE we dont have the Jihad thing, and we dont urged to kill innocent people by our religion

You sorry usa quit the stupid summit??? do you want to see usa paying big money to the black people, when most of the slave traders were muslims????
do you think it is really israel the racist country, when all the countries that dont give a damn about people like cuba and others come together and say israel is racist country?

[educatedfilm]

"look what's going on in russia.. for years they supported arabian aggressions and now they suffering from it themselves.." The russians supported those with a sympathy towards comunist intrests (some of these were arab countries).

"open your eyes.. leave all the human rights alone for the second, because there are no humans against us all but only cold blood killers. " Sorry, the way i see it, their country was taken away from them in 48, the poeple who came along amd considered them as crap, so a lot of plastinians left, some stayed and were just refugees for years, and some took isreali passports (these arabs aren't accapted in dailly life, in the last "INTIFADA", there were no fatalities due to the isreali army among the jewish citezens, but there were fatalities when it came to the isreali arabs). It's a shame amnisty international sees these "cold blooded killers" as humans. Hell man, you even have extradudicail excutions for the arab fanatics (alot of these poeple are innocent, but isreal has a policy of shoot them all and let god sort them out), but for the isreali fanatic how assasinated your president there's a prison sentance. Don't tell me there's no double standards there.

"in case you didnt know it israeli army IS made of kids, im 18 in another half year, and i'm going to serve my country"
i know about this, and your an adult when you turn 18. You also are given weapons and armour.

[Fenderblues]

Hi to all, I am an Englishman and feel shocked and disgusted that such an attrocity could have taken place.

I was in Manchester when the IRA bombed the city center and was lucky to be unhurt as glass and debris fell around me. Over here terrorist attacks are expected and often occur but the magnetude and scale of the attack upon the American people and its land is more than anyone can understand or make sense of. I believe that the American people will strive to overcome this act of terrorism and agree that it was not just an attack on the USA but indeed on the free world as well but alas the Country who was used in this cruel and sadistic attack was our Friends....America.

I feel however that those passengers who were on board not only suffered a terrible death but they sffered more because they knew what their fate was before the planes hit.

My heart goes out to all those affected and especially the dead.


For what its worth I believe that England feels the loss for you and yours and will help in anyway we can.

Be strong, be brave and prove to the cowards that they have won or gained nothing except hate from the rest of the world.

GOD BLESS ALL.

[Zeppelin]

first of all :
there were never never such a thing palestinian state, so we didnt take anything.. most of the lands on which israel was supposed to be were lands that locals sold to the jewish settlers during 1900-1948.
second: in 1916 a pact of good will between arabian and jewish nations was signed. the people then there will be only two countries a jewish one, and a so called palestinian one, which is Jordan, in case you dont know..
in 1920 the palestinians went mad, and started to kill innocent jewish settlers.. since then we dont like them... they were first to violate the peace, and they are always first to start a war.. you telling me israeli arabians were killed during the intifada??? few months ago black riotes were shot down in cininati (dont know how to spell it right)
so we are not the only bad guys here.. the difference is that black people are american loyal citizens, while our arabian citizens want to throw us to the sea..
you say i'll get armor and weapon???? yes i will, and so are the palestinians, otherwise how can you explain the fact that everyday israelis are being shot on the roads?
the palestinian terrorist are being assasinated because there's no posible way to bring them to court.. the plo never arest them for more than 3 days, and our police cant enter palestinian cities to arest them
and one more fact the arabians in israel are not serving in the army, most of them according to official statistics dont pay taxes, and yet they have realy good life here.. maybe the palestinians in plo suffer , but their brothers here life like kings, they can afford things that their muslim brothers in othe countries just cant. the reason that most of them are uneducated is their culture, not government policy

the last thing: few years ago my family choosed merez on the election, and as you probably dont know merez is our most radical left winged party, which means they are the most peacful people around
since then many things happened and believe me no one here will ever thing again about choosing them... the palestinian policy turned even the most peacful people into people who think there's no chance to the peace..
belive me one day even you'll understand it
i suggest we stop this arguing right here, because you dont live here and you dont know most of the facts, and i'm growing tired of people, who even when 10000 of them are killed by muslim radical terrorist organizations still think there is a place for some stupid declarations, rejected by the other side years ago

[Edited by Zeppelin on 09-12-2001 at 04:05 PM]

[educatedfilm]

"and what do you expect from soildgers to do when molotov ****teils and stones are thrown at them????" YOu forget to mention that the soldiers are in the palastinain area (eg Gazza or Ramalla), when there is no need for them to be there in such numbers.The whole reason of the palastian police was to sort this out.
"and the reason for plo being weak is the fact that most of the palestinians support other terrorist organizations and not plo " you make this sound like a chicken and the egg situation. When america, the worlds biggest super power, a country based on democracy, where every one is equal and has a right to live,doesn't step in, and acts like the school bully's big brother at the nogotiating table, does it matter what the palastinian think? They cant do anything. Very few manage to get thier hands on some fertilzer etc to make home made bombs, but what's that to an army (funded by us).
I find your comment about them not carring about thier kids insulting. THis should be the same to anyone even with a below average IQ.

"be burned and choked with gaz again, so we want a jewish state" So because your grandparents were persicuted, gives you the right to persicute poeple who have done absoloutly nothing wrong.

"what is the definition of racism if you call israel racist country" It is a country set up for one RACE. The fact that most american tax payers who have indeed funded this state, cant claim a dime from it, because of their race. In my book this is racist. Not to mention they've been treating their arab citizen and nieghbours as turds.

"judaism and islam ARE NOT ALIKE we dont have the Jihad thing" Do you know what "JIHAD" means? It means doing for the sake of god, which includes giving to charity comuinity work etc, it's a shame the media has only picked up on the military side of it. Islam condems the killing of citizen (as i said earlier). Anyway, certain white supremist groups belive they are special and more "divine", judiasim belives that jews are "gods children" there is no mention about the rest of us. Taking fact and distorting them like i have done in my example above is easy, that's why i urge poeple to be clam, and take waht the media says with a pinch of salt.
"You sorry usa quit the stupid summit??? do you want to see usa paying big money to the black people, when most of the slave traders were muslims????" Hmmm,all of those slave traders in america over the last 200 years were muslim?
You cant blame muslims for everything. You do know that some of the slaves are from african muslim desent. Actually there is debate whether to compensate descendant of black slaves.
I'm sorry you find a summit which would like to take steps to lessen the extent of rasicm in the world "stupid", to me when a melting pot country pulls out of a summit like that there are issues.

your comment about countries like Cuba (i'm guesing you mean bannana repulblics), we have stepped in on Cuba before, only to get our fingers burned.(the whole cuba missle crissis thing). We do not go out of our way to give them a hard time in the hope they leave the counrty, as is the case in isreal.

THere is no reason that you should have a Jewish only state, why not take a leaf from south africa's book, give them equal rights, equal opportunities? This whole mess could be solved if your willing to share!


[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-13-2001 at 06:15 AM]

[educatedfilm]

Zepplin this isn't personal...I'm only offering my oppinion for all it's worth. I think that all humans are equal. Claims of atrocities are easy to make, but it takes amnisty international years to prove these are lies. So the media can get away with making mountians of mole hills. Can demonise nation,and some how make it right in sick distorted way that it's right to just "eliminate" the poeple, and if there are heavy casualties then so be it.
All i ask of people is to be strong at this time, and try to keep our cool, this needn't turn into an all out war.

thank you

[zepp_rules]

hey wait a minute,

Israel under Rabin and Sharon have made concession after concession to the palestinians, Israel has done more for peace then the probably should have. Israel has never initiated a conflict, all of them have been started by the surrounding arab countries. Israel is willing to do anything for peace, and have tried very hard.

In addition who do you think is allowing, and encouraging the kids to provoke the Israeli soldiers. Arafat Why isn't doing something to prevent them from attacking the soldiers? He is willing to sacfrice these kids to generate negative views toward Israel. Though, i don't live in Israel, i have studied (objectively) it a great deal in Hebrew School, and have been to many speeches about Israel's status.

Israel wants peace now, and are willing to do almost anything for it. anything they do, is in self-defense.

Finally, this is a guitar forum. Let's try to stay on topic.

[educatedfilm]

I feel like i'm banging my head against a brick wall! They are still 2nd class citizens, and there is no reason for them to be so!
The idea that kids are being organised is a pile of dung. ANd when kids throw stones, does that warrent live ammunition? Come on poeple use your heads.
Why isn't the palestinain police being alowed to do thier bit? I thought the whole reason in them being there.

If isreal really wants peace, how come settlers are given guns and alowed to "patrol" arab areas? How come the west bank is expanding?
Some one said the arabs are uneducated because of their culture, the fact that thier schools are far inferior has nothing to do with it? The only jobs for them are those are in construction, where they actaully build new homes over for other poeple over theri old homes. Do you think kids are gonna be motivated by a future like that?

Your education has alot to do with your veiws, i seem to be the only one who has done some nuetral reaserch. Arabs hate isreal cos they're only told about the bad things they've done. Isrealis hate the arabs as they're told about how arabs have killed and how they're no way of talking to them.

I'm gonna have to end this debate as i'm having to repeat my self, and you cant show poeple the light over night.

I hope it all turns out well, for everyone's sake.

[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-12-2001 at 05:12 PM]

[educatedfilm]

It's kinda depresing not talking to you all about guitars... zep_rules your right this is just a guitar forum, i dont know how i got dragged into the subject...
I've been saying "what you reap is what you sow" about what the government has been upto for the a long while now but when it came, it really made my stomach churn...

I can only hope this ends peacfully, and we return to our normal lives, and that this doesn't escalate, and we dont all start blaming poeple when we dont know anything...this is the last you'll hear from me on the subject. (sorry if i upset you in any way Led-Zep).

[Christoph]

FenderBlues, I thought Tony Blair made a great statement when he said that this attack wasn't just against America, but against the whole free world.

In order to get through this and find those responsible, we're all going to have to stand together.

Thanks for your support man.

[Christoph]

Zeppelin, I just want to let you know that I'm in total support of Israel, and I believe that the US must continue to support you guys in every way.

[Joseph]

You know, I woke up the other morning just like any other day, at 6am on the dot, and I wasn't in the best of moods. I was really ticked off at something that transpired this past week, and the coffee I made was really thick. Just like anyone, I had my reasons for feeling down, and frustrated, and just really tired of trying to find common ground. And then a simple thing like the newspaper being delivered right to my front door, no not in the bushes, not in the tree, but right in front of my door, that put a smile on my face. As I'm flipping through the pages, I took a sip of my (thick coffee) and everything just didn't taste so bad after that.

I found a way to re-charge my batteries, just from that one simplistic moment of not having to climb my palm tree to read that darn paper.

I don't have the ability to hate, or to hold a grudge at someone else for making my day, or my year a little less than pleasant for that matter, and for those who allow feelings of hatred to eat up at their soul, it makes them wonder what they are living for after all.

This act of terrorism that this world has experienced was nothing more tha a confident suicide mission, led by people who no longer valued their lives compared to a mission of destruction.

It's sad to see that in this world, retribution is #1 for a lot of people, that's their way in finding peace with themselves. I've said it once before and I'll say it again, this world is just fine, but it's certain people that make it bad for others.

Watching the people in foreign countries celebrate because of the destruction that we have faced this morning, it really does scare you, it scares you that there are actually people in this world (normal hard working citizens) who truly allow hatred to rule their lives and take over theor better judgement. Despite the beef that people have with the authority of this country, that should not hold any ground with the welfare of the common citizens of this world, people that are no different than any other.
We don't know any of these somewhat 40,000 people who are presumably dead, but still it's very easy to put ourselves in their position, or in the position of their loved ones. The worst feeling that one can imagine is having someone you love taken away from you without any reasons, and without anything that you can do about it.

Terrorism exists in this world, and people do have evil in intentions. That's something that we have forgotten for quite sometime, due to scandal, and whatever distractions the media has been focusing on over the past several years.
But it doesn't make sence to cast the next stone, there's no point in pointing the finger where it doesn't belong. It's best to try and preserve whatever is left of courgage, trust and faith when it comes to the people in this country. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be over cautious in all situations.


I'm tired of trying to make sence of this situation, because I can't, and I can no longer argue with how the authorites should have seen this coming, because they couldn't possibly have. Sooner or later, in perfect world, something like this is bound to slip beneath the cracks. And as a strong country, we have to pull together and pick up the pieces to make sure that we're prepared so nothing like this will happen again.


Although it's hard to admit, something like this makes us stronger as a nation, it keeps us aware that evil that lurks behind every corner, and that we have to be careful at all costs.


I can't tell people how to think, and millions of hours in therapy doesn't always cure a lost soul. There are some people in this world who will never change, some people who live and die by revenge, and casting the final stone even if it costs them their lives.


And we will never escape such terrorism, because evil intentions will forever exist in this world. But we have to learn to protect ourselves much more securely, and with more confidence. We have to learn not to second guess ourselves, no matter how it makes ius look, because we just might be saving our lives in the end.


At a moment like this, it's important to be thankful for what you still have, be thankful for your family snd friends, and that you're able to enjoy another thanksgiving dinner with them, because life is so precious, and it vcan be taken away within the blink of an eye.


I've spoken to all different types of people, including my previous girlfriend who cuurently lives in Massachusettes, (who frequently travels to New York to visit her friends. As I spoke with her, I didn't care about what we've been through in the past, or how things ended, I just wanted to hear her voice, and to know that she was okay. Just like everyone else, she was shaken up, but with all of the crap we've been through, all of the fights, she was just glad to hear from me.


Things like this, they gives you a heightened perspective on life and all of the people that surround you, it shows you that the arguments that you couln;t resolve one weekemnd don't really mean a thing. All that matters us that you keep in touch with those ou love and truly care about in this world, and that you never hesitate to say what's truly in your heart.


This is how I feel, and the only thing that makes sense to me after all of this endless tragedy is that love is the most precious feeling that one could imagine. Before even after we're long and gone, it never really leaves our soul. We can do a good job in hiding it, or convincing others that it's gone, but it never truly leaves us.
My prayers go out to families of all of the victims of this horrible crash, I haven't cried in years, but this is the one thing that has broken me down. And I guess sometimes, you're afraid that once you start, you just wont be able to stop. It'ds very true, but I'm only human, and when words can't express how you feel, sometimes you just hwve no choice.

Say a prayer guys, and hold onto those you truly love.


Sorry if this was enormously long, but there isn't much more to talk about at this point. After waching this nonstop for the past two days, it really rips you in half.

-Joseph

[SteveP]

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the organisor of this crime to be brought to justice, but it does need to be the correct person, and the response needs to be harsh enough to prevent to the person or group from being able to repeat Tuesday's disaster, but not so harsh that it affects other innocent people. I think Bush has been sensible in not attacking anything yet and hope he continues to think before he acts.

educatedfilm: you said the taliban had said they would extradite bin laden if he was shown to be guilty, in fact it was just one member of the taliban who said this, and as with US politics the taliban is made up of a great many people with differing views. and this statement was later retracted and denied.

If it is Bin Laden that did this, then maybe America should offer support to the Afghan government (the taliban) to remove him from the country, and if they don't accept the support then they should then consider helping an opposition party form in Afghanistan. At the moment there is no opposition as the Taliban has prevented other parties from existing, as you may have heard Bin Laden is suspected of involvment in the assination of the Afghan opposition leader.

[educatedfilm]

Nice of you to jion steve. When i put down my comment on the talaban handing over thingy, i hadn't heard that it had been retracted. Can i ask who retracted this? Wasn't the guy that made the original statement quite high ranking? (Possiblity of it still standing?)
"America should offer support to the Afghan government (the taliban) to remove him from the country, and if they don't accept the support then they should then consider helping an opposition party form in Afghanistan."
No,no, no, no...This method of dealing with a situation has gone sour every single time, eg a little funding to the afgan against the (Former) USSR, same as weapons to sadam husain during the IRAQ/IRAN war. And shouldn't send troops in to "help" like Vietnam.
Now supposing that Ben Laden is killed, and he turns out innocent in this case. Do you really want to think about the concequences?
As to suspicion to who did it, there is no actual evidence to link him yet. Just that he has the motive, and possibly the means. I would like to point out nothing as intracit as this has ever been instaged by him, we maybe looking at someone new .
It's easy to come up with possible ideas and solutions, but you need to know your history to see how likely they are to work.
(i'm sorry i've rejioned the topic, i said i wouldn't but i take the situation quite seriously).

[SteveP]

educatedfilm: maybe you're right about it not being Bin Laden this time, and about not getting involved in screwy afghan politics.

But Bin Laden still has a label of $5m on his head from previous attacks. So whether america "gets" him for this or for previous terrorist attacks it will be deemed as legitimate by Americans and allies but not by those in the middle east.

[Zeppelin]

Christoph: thanks for your support.. hopefuly our nations will join arms to beat the terrorists all over the world

educatedfilm
not all the people equal, this got nothing to do with their race probably, but it is a fact people can't be equal for many different reasons.

The summit against racism turned out to be "who hates the jews and israel more" summit, because as you know there are many many nazies around the world, in different countries, in many muslim countries foreigners are being treated like ****, but somehow all the summit was turned only against israel.. dont give me the south africa example because in the very same second the blacks there got equal rights they just started to use it against the white citizens, and that's a fact.
the palestinian kids DO HAVE GUNS. eveyday people are being shot down here.
the palestinian police became just another group of terror, when instead of arresting murderers they are killing themselves. Today is 8 years from the Oslo talks, and the hate between the sides are bigger then ever, this is mainly because the fact that from the beginning the muslims were the only people who didnt accept the relatishonship between the jews and this land. They are second class citizens, because they became citizens of israel not because they wanted to, but because they started a war which they've lost... they are responsible for this hate, because they started it and now its their problem they dont have a country.
last two things: untill the end of the six days war the palestinians were not recognized as nation, and israel didnt conquer other nation but parts of jordan and egypt, so you can't say israel conquered the palestinians
and about the parents that dont give a damn about the kids:
we saw many times parents of suicide bombers saying how much they are proud of their kids, and that they are expecting their other kids to do the same..
belive me my parents or your or anyone else in the western world, wont be happy with the fact their kids blew themselves up.. and it is not according to their religion, because the islam is against suiciding
now lets realy stop it here... it's not me against you as you said, so there's no point arguing when we will never agree anyway

[skee1]

I think we should keep this subject at a very low profile,
plus get back to talking guitars&Tricks.(my opinion)
Also all the facts are still coming in over here in the(usa)
Also everyone on here has an e-mail address that could,
be used if you want to debate the issues.(use your e-mail
address.
And if you really want some facts about(Osama bin Laden,Print out the report on him from CNN.Com
Another suspect is (Sadam hsain) and more.
I do support Zeppelin's & Christoph 's plus Fenderblues, replys.And i can't forget that long long reply by Joseph,
which was a well put togather Reply.

Mark

God Bless all

[Edited by skee1 on 09-13-2001 at 10:42 AM]

[Christoph]

I just have one last thing to say on the subject -

So what if Bin Laden is killed. Even if he is innocent of this crime in NY, he has already been proven responsible for the embassy bombings a few years ago that killed hundreds.

[educatedfilm]

I'm going to agree with skee1 this should really be discused on an e-mail basis, this is a guitar forum after all.
CNN will give you misleading info, if you want knowledge, you'll have to go out there rearch libraries,talk to poeple, and have some patients.
You sound like you disagree with what i've said, Skee1 i'd be intrested in what you think.

"very same second the blacks there got equal rights they just started to use it against the white citizens".
What's your answer? Leave blacks as they were? They are citizens too. "and that's a fact.
the palestinian kids DO HAVE GUNS"
they have a miniscule number, all of which are smuggled or stolen. In the end they use stones, and end up looking down the barrel of a Klashnikof.

CAn i say something which should make more sense of the situation. On your currency (i'm sorry to reffer to it like that , i've forgotten what it is called) there is a map. THis is a map of "israil as it should be" if you will, which is what it was in the days of Abraham. This is what the government wants it to be like. THis map, extends isreal as far north as taking parts of turkey, and i think taking parts of every nieghbour (i think the whole of Jordan). Do you still wonder why your arab nieghbours are so upset.

I'm not argueing about who started what, what i'm saying is it shouldn't carry on, causing casualties on both sides, but most are on the palastinian.

If you wish to carry on this debate please e-mail me. I am of open mind.

[skee1]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
I'm going to agree with skee1 this should really be discused on an e-mail basis, this is a guitar forum after all.
CNN will give you misleading info, if you want knowledge, you'll have to go out there rearch libraries,talk to poeple, and have some patients.
You sound like you disagree with what i've said, Skee1 i'd be intrested in what you think.

"very same second the blacks there got equal rights they just started to use it against the white citizens".
What's your answer? Leave blacks as they were? They are citizens too. "and that's a fact.
the palestinian kids DO HAVE GUNS"
they have a miniscule number, all of which are smuggled or stolen. In the end they use stones, and end up looking down the barrel of a Klashnikof.

CAn i say something which should make more sense of the situation. On your currency (i'm sorry to reffer to it like that , i've forgotten what it is called) there is a map. THis is a map of "israil as it should be" if you will, which is what it was in the days of Abraham. This is what the government wants it to be like. THis map, extends isreal as far north as taking parts of turkey, and i think taking parts of every nieghbour (i think the whole of Jordan). Do you still wonder why your arab nieghbours are so upset.

I'm not argueing about who started what, what i'm saying is it shouldn't carry on, causing casualties on both sides, but most are on the palastinian.

If you wish to carry on this debate please e-mail me. I am of open mind.
What i think huh!
In your profile you don't have a country,
where your from.
Another thing a debate with you will solve nothing.
To me i think we should leave the debates to the pro's,
plus not start a riot on a guitar message board plus,
hurt alot of feelings of some great guitar players,
and friends.
Mark T. (USA)
P:S:Also if you are from the usa you don't speak for me.
I have no hard feelings against you and i think we need to,
get back to talking guitars.

[Joseph]

I know that a lot of yuou guys feel that we should stray from this topic, but this is something that is definitely heavy on our minds., And to a certain extent, it's seems insignificant to talk about anything else, no matter how hard we try and forget about it all. So, since it's already been started...


Everyone fears a war, we all fear that this is just the beginning of a long line of continuous destruction. But we shouldn't jump to conclusions as American citizens, we should have faith in this country and our leaders in command.

You know I've talked with several different people since this destruction, and everyone I know feels the need to point the finger at someone, to find fault and to do whatever it takes to prevent something like this from happening again. Right now our primary concern should be maintaining the safety of this country, and I really don't feel that the powers that be are trigger happy at this point, The President Of tHe United States of America will continue to go forward with a full investigation, and to do whatever it takes to bring the culprits to justice, with with a collective train of thoughts. Whatever the outcome may be, we should have faith in each other, and in this country that we will survive and we will save this country from eternal destruction.

It's safe to say that no one can seriously bite their tongue when it comes to war, because that's definitely a possiblity, but we should be patient and follow in the example of our President, who will lead ius through.


I can't begin to tell you how many arguments there are pertaining to how this could have been prevented, but the truth is that desruction can strike at any moment, and sometimes there's nothing we can do to prevent this. But ever since tuesdays attack, I hate to say that something good can come out of it, but we are definitely more closer than we've ever been before in our lives. We have created a union based on pride, faith and love for our country and for each other. We are now more secure, and methods for safety in airports and all around the country will contue to get stronger and stronger.

I can't seriously watch the television set anymore without breaking down into tears, because it could have seriously been any one of us. The worst part is not knowing what happened to a loved one, the worst part is feeling helpless wondering if there's anything you can do at all to assure the safe return of a dear loved family member.

Although we are torn apart inside, although these tears may never end, I feel that as law biding citizens we will just keep getting strong. Because, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and prepares us for just about anything. The most important thing to us is keeping those we love safe, I can only imagine what all of these people must be going through now, and I only wish that there was something I could do to seriously help them in their search.


You start up your car in the morning, you look around, and nothing is the same, no matter where you are, no matter where you turn in this country. Because we are so afraid, not only afraid for our lives, but afraid of how this will ulitimately affect this country, and how it has already affected this country. But with our patience, and our strong faith in each other, there will be a difference, and we will make it happen.

In other parts of this world, it's really heartbreaking to know that children all over the globe have been taught to hate, instead of tuly trying to understand that a killing a killing, and love is spread throughout this world. Despite where you com from, love should not be overruled by hate, and cause for revenge.


We say things that we don't mean, we look at those we love and tell them that we never want to see them again, but for the most part these are just words, and for a lot of us we can't even imagine what it would be like to truly never have the chance to say goodbye to someone you care about deeply.

So, all we can really do at this point is pray, and hold onto to everyone that's important to us in this world. To put our petty arguments asde to truly peel away those walls of hate, to find what truly matters in this world. We should hold our heads up high, truly appreciate the gifts we have received, and the freedom that we take for granted.

I pray that this world will not come to war once again, but in someways it already has. But President Bush, and the powers that be, they aren't on a panic mission, they are on safe mission for justice and to prevent anything like this happening again. Despite how we feel about how this man was elected, he's our president, and the last thing we need right now is to undermine his intentions, which are obviously straight from the heart and in the best interests of this country!

-Joseph

[Zeppelin]

the palestinians dont use stones no more, and even when they do they throw them at cars, and this leads to road accidents and people are dying
Just like President Bush, we dont want to negotiate under fire, the palestinians didnt decide yet whether their face is to peace or war... they must understand that killing our civilans everyday wont do no good... the intifada started not because israel wanted it or because sharon went to jerusalem, but because the palestinians want more than they deserve, for example: i dont trust them they will save our holy places when they got the "Kever Joseph" in the Hebron city, even though they knew it is holy to us they painted it and burned it down....Also Jerusalem was supposed to be international city, in 1948 there were no muslim majority there, the jordanian conquered it and the israel re-conquered it to themselves, so why should we give it to the palestinians?????

im sory i still posted it on the board, because i have a problem with my e-mail

[educatedfilm]

I'm in the uk, and about an hour ago i obsorved teh three minute silence... You sound like a pretty nice guy Mark... i went to your site by the way, you sound like a modest guitar guru (been playing since '65, my god...has it been good fun over the years, or is my dad right in saying "it;s a waste of time in the end").
I would advise reading up on your history and your politics (you'll see why so many americans have become anti american, let alone the rest of the world...). I'll accept your comment about hurting poeple's feeling, i'll tread softly, but some things do need to be said.

"I pray that this world will not come to war once again"
Joseph i wish there were more poeple like you.

I can only emphasise that the poeple who did this don't speak for a religion or an idoilogy, how can they there were 4 suicides, and the whole cell could be as small as ten or fifteen poeple. The other thing is not stigmatise arabs and muslim citizens, we shouldn't let our selves to start hating poeple (especially when they're inocent, after all there were arab and muslim victims in the trade centre).

I hope there will now be more sympathy when inccont men, women and children are bombed (like what is happening in iraq as we speak, which is intronational terrorism if you follow international law, as the nofly zone has been imposed by the UK and US with out the UN, and iraq has never put pen to paper about agreeing to it,so both the uk and us have done this to the condemnation of the rest of the world eg China and france were the latest to speak out against it, and CNN and ABc dont even bother to mention it, even before tuesday).
We needn't get into a war over this.

[educatedfilm]

"the palestinians dont use stones no more, and even when they do they throw them at cars"
I'm afraid that palastinains are still using stones (this is what i have been told by a lady doing humanitarian in the arab areas, so i think my source is more reliable than what the isreali media says). I post a reply earlier telling you why they throw stones and shoot at drivers, because of a hadful of settlers there are roads built throgh arab areas and houses, which means that a population of a million plus arabs are torn apart by physical barrier. The arabs get upset retaliate, the story is then given in a very biased fromat (meaning your not told just how many arabs are upstet for the sake of a handful of settlers) upsetting Isrealis, so that the only person to gain anything is the isreali government, as they now have an excuse and their poeple's backing to hit the arabs when it was them who poured fuel onto the fire.

"they must understand that killing our civilans everyday wont do no good..." I agree with that, unfourtantly the isreali governmetn doesn't see that the same way about the arabs.

"not because sharon went to jerusalem,"
I'm sorry that's wrong, he's not just upset arabs he's also upset jews (i have talked to jews about a belife that jews shouldn't step into the dome of rock due to the respect to king solomon, or something like that, i'm sure you can give me more light on this).
"but because the palestinians want more than they deserve,"
THey are 2nd class citizen for Gods sake!

[SteveP]

*tries to remember what song goes*

"they murdered malcolm x and tried to blame it on islam"

[Zeppelin]

You are missing something educatedfilm,
the plo's people are not second class citizens, they are no israeli citizens at all, they are citizens of the autonomy and got nothing to do with israel
then we have about 1 milion people, who are citizens of israel and who live inside the country
in my opinion every citizen of the country should receive full rights , both political and humanitarian, as long as they are loyal citizens of the country
the Arabians who are citizens of this country , can do anything i can - be in the knesset, learn at the universities, anything, however according to the statistics about 80% of them dont pay taxes, and no one of them serves in the army... belive me if they will start to pay taxes, their schools will look better, and their whole cities will,
but instead of being loyal to this country, they are praying in the mosques for the death of all the jews.. and you wonder they are 2 class citizens here??? that's what they deserve, if they were in some place like russia, or other european country or even usa, they would all sit in the jail or would be deported instead

I know that people like you think that it's ok for the palestinian to kill jews, because we are conquerors, bla bla bla, but remember: for 20 years the palestinians were under the control of jordan and egypt, and some of them still in lebanon. No one of them got any citizenship there, and those arabian countries never recognized their right for independence. Israel did recognize this right, and the only reason for them to be still without country, is that they didnt decide if they want peace or terror instead
You can't see all the truth on CNN, and from talking with people who are here to "help the poor palestinian"
you werent here when 2 israeli troopers were killed by the palestinian police, who cut their legs and eyes out, then burned them with their cars
I dont think there's any explanation to such a thing, and i dont think that the peace wanting palestinians would do such a thing if they would really want to make peace with us

[BadHorsie]

You know, I've been away for a few days so I'm just barely starting to catch up with these posts and it's nearly impossible because of the length of them and the time I have to read them. But as far as what you said Joseph. You don't think the President's trigger happy? "We will hunt down the people responsible for this and punish them and those who harbor them". Basically if we find out that this was a terrorist attack, which is what it's really starting to look like, we're going to war. There's no way that Bush is going to sit back and make the country look passive by just increasing our defense against terrorists. Bush is going to start a war on terrorism itself. Just like the war we had on communism. Remember Vietnam?

[educatedfilm]

Praise the lord for SteveP and BadHorsie!!!!
It looks like i'm not the only one to say if we hit, we're gonna get hit! and this smells too much of vietnam.
THey want to bomb Afganistan. This would be another act of terror, except Afganistan doesn't have rescure poeple like the US or any money to pull together, and it's a country which has hit rock bottom, politically and financially. Afganistan is still a grave yard from civil war.
I told you at the start they would start bombing and giving lame excuses. We can only pray the pakistan doesn't let the military use its air space

[educatedfilm]

Zeplin: "I know that people like you think that it's ok for the palestinian to kill jews" When did i say that? I think you are being paranoid. Murder is wrong nomatter the race of the victim. and my whole arguement is that there are more palastinain victims.
As the the two soldiers who died out of the whole intifada, around 130 died, nearly all of which were arab, 3000 palastinains were injured...now tell me how terrible the death of these two sodliers were when all of these arabs were citizens. lets face facts, more palastinains die than israilies. this is my whole point! and it's accepted by the government as fact of life, when its a disaster!

[educatedfilm]

Oh yeah, the two soldier weren't killed by palastinian police, just watch the clip through. There was a large metal door to the police station, where the police were protecting the soldeirs which was pushed down by and angry mob of palastinain (lets face it, they had just seen their kids get shot by the poeple the police were harbouring), they then went in. you can see them open the door to a room on the 1st floor (the one above ground floor,i know there's adifference in defintion of what a floor is between english and american). The palastinains crouch to hit and kick someone on the floor, then he was thrown out of window, and kicked to death.
I watched the whole thing in horor like every else, except i kept a tab on the number of fatalities.

[ekstasis16]

educatedfilm, zepplin, this debate is going nowhere. I don't want to sound like any kind of authority here, but the problem is that Americans will never fully understand what it's like to live in Israel or Afghanistan or Iran or whatever, and the people there will never fully understand Americans. You know what keeps this mess going? Stereotypes and fear, a deadly combo. I went to a discussion last night at my university here about the events and implications of Tuesday, and while there was a genuine saddness and disbelief, some people just kept debating over the past and U.S. policy in the middle-east and who to point fingers at. It was useless. The U.S. will always have an interest in that region as long as they have oil that we need. The only useful tool we can use now is understanding. Hatred and anger and misunderstanding are destructive feelings, and they can and will be self-destructive. I think there is a lot going on that no one knows about, and to think we can completely understand the situation on both sides and give solutions just like that is arrogant and deceiving. I would like to ask you guys to stop this endless circle of debate. We are here because we love music. Let's remember that.

[Zeppelin]

yeah anyone here likes queen's night at the opera?
just got it on a cd and it is a one kicking ass album :)

[skee1]

Educatedfilm
I'm in the uk, and about an hour ago i obsorved teh three minute silence... You sound like a pretty nice guy Mark... i went to your site by the way, you sound like a modest guitar guru (been playing since '65, my god...has it been good fun over the years, or is my dad right in saying "it;s a waste of time in the end").
I would advise reading up on your history and your politics (you'll see why so many americans have become anti american, let alone the rest of the world...). I'll accept your comment about hurting poeple's feeling, i'll tread softly, but some things do need to be said

Now you want to get your facts right about when i started,
playing unless it was a typo on the about me page.
Educatedfilm<-Man thats along word i think your real,
first name would be better unless its longer.(grin)
Anyway it was the latter part of 1961 when i started playing guitar.No its not a waste of time in the end.
Only if you have problems with your health ect.
Which i don't, (knock on wood) i'm on the road state wide,
plus out, of my state 3 nites aweek, plus sometimes, playing afternoon, events with my band.
Really i'm lucky about being able to play guitar at an older,age as much as i do, but most of my family were still,
playing music at ages 85 to 98 pro's ect.
I feal great plus feel just like i did at 29 health wise.
In fact i can play faster plus smoother now at 61 then i,
did when i was only 29.I am the oldest player in my band,
but don't have grey hair like the drummer age 49 or the,
keyboard player age 42 bass player age 30.
Anymore i use my son alot with me on guitar and vocals,
he's 23 and his wife would rather have him on the road,
with me so he won't go back to to his old metal bands,
plus the head-banger groups he used to have because of,
drugs.I do have a hard-drink twice a year .
Other wise its Diet Pepsi with the whole band.Plus,
we can all get high just playing music.
Enough about me: Now on history i think i know my history,
plus Politics to damm well sometimes.
I have a thing that i go buy which i have stuck too for years.
I NEVER mix Politics with friends plus the band or family
members i think everyone has thier own views and thats thier right to belive thier way this is a free country in the usa and you have the right to belive or say what you want.
I'm thinking some where you ask me somewhere in a question ,
about Black Poeple or something to do with thier rights.ect
I'm proud to say that in my Town i was the first person,
to bring into my band a Black Drummer that could really,
kick ass on the drums.Plus i took him into a local club,
which was at that time a rock&roll club.
I encountered a hell of lot of static from the poeple,
in the club plus the owner's.
Which really we were the first rock band in our town ,so
it was either let him play or don't make all that money,
we were makeing for the club before we hired him.
I won the fight he played with us a few year's then joined,
the army in the later 60s and got killed in vietnam .
He was wounded the first time out then went back in again,
the 2d time and was killed.I miss him as a drummer plus,
as one of the best friends i ever had.
I forgot to mention i used to play alot at an all black blues,club accross town and thats how i met him.
I met alot of great blues guitarests there plus learned,
alot from them.So yes i'm COLOR-BLIND when it comes to,
the Race's i have my folks to thank for that.
Anyway i also teach guitar 3 days aweek plus sometime's,
work on computer's plus i like playing RPG games on the,
pc like diable2.....................


Mark



Mark

[educatedfilm]

You've gone up alot in estimations now you've told me that... i do have a thing about civil/ human rights, i do like to think we're equals not competetors, competing for power over each other.
Zeplin: I think i will end this debate, nice talking to you. I've never talked some with veiws like you, which is refreshing... i've only really talked to Libral and left windg isrealies before... Thank you for an intresting debate.

[chris mood]

There is no doubt that we over here in the U.S., and around the world, are feeling strong mixed emotions over the tragedy at hand. We must plan our course of action in a well thought out and strategic manner, situations around the globe are to delicate to act hastily, we do not want to enter WW3. We have already lost tens of thousands of lives, lets not make it hundreds of thousands. This is what they would have wanted.
I say give the president and his advisors some time to deliberate, let the investigation run its course and lets find out exactly who is responsible before declaring war on a whole nationality. The governments harboring these terrorists may turn them over in fear of U.S. sanctions and attacks.
We must also remember that these people are cowards and fight in a cowardly way. Hijacked planes could turn into germ warfare and nuclear destruction if we try to strongarm them. It is clear that these people have no value for human life.
To Zeppelin and the others I say; despite all our differences we all have one thing in common, we all live on the only planet capable of containing human life. If we do not learn how to cohabitate together the end result will be destruction of all mankind. -GIVE PEACE A CHANCE-

[blackrose]

Every day 6000 africans die due to AIDs alone. Thats the equivilent of 30 fully loaded 747's crashing every day for those of you who cant do math. This has been going on for decades and how many of you knew that? Probably none. You ppl are all blind to what is wrong on earth. The trajedy isnt a bunch of millionares getting pasted by a 737 its the deaths that happen every second that you peeps dont know or care about! You want to help the earth out dont send flowers, send help.

[educatedfilm]

I used to talk just like you...unfortunatly i've found nomatter how legitamate (and sometimes out right obvious) your point is poeple will just get upset and not listen, and the sad thing is that the dumbest poeple talk back loudest (these poeple are imposible to talk to, anything you say you get back a sentance staring with "NO!..").
The number of deaths due to aids are different to the deaths due to terrorism, in the latter case everyone looks for someone to blame, while with aids it seen just as a disease an a part of life (i dont agree with this)...
I do agree about that the poeple in the world trade center are no more important than any one else, the poeple who die in Iraq are victims or terrorisim, but were told how their leader is evil and upto no good, and the sick thing is the poeple in government say they care for the Iraqi poeple. THey know they can't get suddam, they've tried in the gulf and they've failed, so they bomb innocent iraqis. End of the day both are innocent humans, and americans are gonna mourn the death of americans more than anyone else, simply as it's so close to home...
I have a feeling they'll do the same to the afgans as they did to the Iraqis.

"You want to help the earth out dont send flowers, send help"
More importantly relive them of their debts so they can stand on their own feet.(this especially aplies to Brazil a country with tremendous resources which could become a great country, but they're being anochored and being kept poor).


[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-14-2001 at 05:59 PM]

[educatedfilm]

Chris, i know you hope for the same as i do, but if you listen to the president, you'll see he's on a war footing, there are destroyers in the gulf alredy, and they are calling up 5000 reserves. Does that sound like a president who wishes to solve this peacfully?

[educatedfilm]

One last thing... There's nothing wrong with having gray hair god dammit *grins*, i'm 18 and i'm going grey, so i'll prbably have a head full of white hair *reads it through again...laughs*. Still i'm lucky not to go bald (nothing wrong with going blad, i'm just attached to my hair *grins*)

[THE PHYRGIAN LORD]

At least they have aressted some of them bastards they will pay for what they have done its only a matter of time before bush plans a strike we have always had terrorism and its about time they put a stop to some of it what really pissed me of was on a news story these afghans were rejoicing and celebrating the terrible attack on america

[Raskolnikov]

Well...
(here we go...)

First off, let me say that I hope all of you, your families, and friends are intact, and doing well.

Second, I think we Americans need to take a good look at ourselves. What happened was undescribably horrible, and nobody deserved that. On the other hand, their were resons why it happened. We had better to be sure that whatever action we take not only finds and punishes those responsible, but does something to addres the resons why terrorism occures in the first place. Otherwise, this will happen again and again as new terrorist groups form. We also have to keep in mind that Arabs in the US are suddenly finding themselves facing a whole new world of persicution- and that isn't right. First off, on the human level it's wrong, secondly it gives the very people we try to fight ammunition when they go to recrute new young men to go off and die.

From "Too Many Puppies," Primus:

Too many puppies with guns in their hands
Too many puppies in foregn lands are dressed up sharp in suits of green and placed upon the war machine
Too many puppies are just like me
Too many puppies are afraid to see the visions of the past brought to life again
Too many puppies, too many dead men

[Joseph]

Originally posted by BadHorsie
But as far as what you said Joseph. You don't think the President's trigger happy? "We will hunt down the people responsible for this and punish them and those who harbor them".

Of course of the president and his team will retaliate by all means necessary, but I hate to think that the past will repeat itself. Overall, the president has taken a very strong yet methodical approach so far. All we can do is wait and see, without jumping to conclusions.


However, For all I know, I could have been sharing a cup of coffee with these bastards. The hijackers aboard United Airlines Flight 175, which also slammed into the World Trade Center, were pilot Marwan Al Shehhi, who lived in Hollywood, Florida and was in the United States on a visa. The others were Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, all of whom had addresses in Delray Beach, Florida.

You have no idea who you're associating with in this world, and that's scary. These terrorists, they were probably just like everyone else, very polite, holding doors open for old ladies at airports all over the country. The type of guys who could probably talk your ear off about how the weather has changed over the past few months. And it's so sad to know that it could have been just about anyone in this world. It really makes my stomach turn to think that these guys lived so close to me, for all I know they could have passed me by on my morning walks. And You'll drive yourself crazy trying to figure out if you saw someone very suspicious over the past few years, someone who's capable of such a crime. You're never really safe, not even in Florida. Which makes you want to buy a gun!


-Joseph

[educatedfilm]

Raskolnikov: i was gonna say that! I'm glad that there are intelligent poeple out there. Unfourtnatly there are alot of trigger happy morons, and these poeple are morons (make no mistake) they beat up a siek guy, becasue he had a beard and a turban, cos they though he was a talaban.
There are reasons to why poeple do this (although the media is quick to call it religous fanaticism), and it's not right taht they do it, and it's also not right to put through conditions that drive them to it.
I hope more american wake up to the fact that the american government forign policy isn't squeeky clean.
(Raskolnikov... wasn't the name of the guy who killed the old money lender in the book "crime and punishment"?)

[educatedfilm]

"The government is supposed to watch out for this sort of thing. That's what profiling is for"
Modern encryption is IMPOSSIBLE to crack (there is a mathmatical proof to this... ask steveP he's knowlegable in these things), so if the whole thing was organised by a couple of encyrpted messages no blame should fall on the intelligence. About keeping tabs on poeple ,they already do this for a great number of poeple, but lets face it you cant keep tabs on 250 million poeple!

[zepp_rules]

These reserves being called up, who the hell are we going to fight? It's great that we've arrested some people, but now it seems our president is, as previously mentioned, "trigger happy." When someone, or anything reacts with emotions flaring,, it only makes it worse. I think as a country we need to calm down, get our head's straight again. I want to punish these people as much as anyone else, but i think as a nation, we need to regain our ability to think clearly again, and not through our emotions, which is what Bush is doing right now.


The thing i find the weirdest however, is that we've been stepping up our airport security enorously over the years, and yet four times airplanes was hijacked. This is the thing that puzzles me the most.


This is the worst terrorist attack in history. People should be punished. But we can't act through anger and vengeance, we need, a clearer mind than ever.

[educatedfilm]

Bless your heart Zep_rules!
I'm afraid though it's very likely the US will go to war. We only hope it not the afagan government, as we've seen them defeat a world super power before... the President is talking him self into a corner, and building up momentum for attack. Who are we attacking (remember the US and Uk both attack, "shoulder to shoulder")? The enemy is largly an invisible one... if you bomb afganistan, and really you do nothing to the group that did this, and you upset the afgans, you'll now have 2 groups against you. Not to mention that thousands of innocent poeple will die just because the president has promised retaliation.

[skee1]

This is my last words on this subject!
Think about this its been said once but not this way.


1.Bush#1
2.Bush#2

Answer=OIL OIL OIL
Plus Politics.


Figure?

p:s And here we go again!(end of story)
Mark


[Edited by skee1 on 09-15-2001 at 02:16 PM]

[Zeppelin]

By the way did any one noticed it goes right like nostadamus said?
quite scarry ****

[metalbob69]

what are you talking about man???

[Christoph]

That prophecy is pretty scary. However, I'm definitely going to do some of my own research.

You shouldn't put too much stock in fowarded emails that you receive. It could be a total hoax.

I don't even know that much about Nostradomus . . .

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, here's the forwarded email that I received -


Subject: What do you think?

In the City of God there will be a great thunder,
Two Brothers [WTC?] torn apart by Chaos,
while the fortess [pentagon?] endures,
the great leader will succumb.
The third big war will begin when the big city is
burning.

In the year of the new century and nine months,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror...
The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.
Fire approaches the great new city....

-Nostradamus 1654


2001 is the first year of the new century and this is the 9th month. New York is located at the 45th degree Latitude.

[ekstasis16]

I'm pretty sure it's fake. A lot of people at my school here have gotten that email, and i know someone who thinks he knows the person who wrote it. Besides, now isnt really the time for ancient prophecies anyway.

[Christoph]

Yeah, I thought so.

I heard a guy on the radio saying that there was a prophecy in the Bible, in Revelation, about this. So I looked it up, and there was nothing like what he talked about.

So don't believe everything you hear or read. Find out for yourself.

[chris mood]

I think it was something like 2023 that nostradamus predicted would be the end of the world as we know it.
I know he did predict a new enemy would arise out of the middle east around this time, and would be unlike anything we have ever delt with before.

[chris mood]

disregard those comments I made about Nostradamus, they where made in reference to a special I seen on the discovery about a year ago, I did some digging of my own last nite and found nothing to support this.

Sorry

[chris mood]

Again, sorry for the missinformation. After reading through the prophecies myself it seems to state that Notradamus predicts a thousand years of peace following WW3.
Alot of people say that Notradamus' prophecies where opium induced & not to atke too much stock in them. A very interesting read though.

[Zeppelin]

i just read this was a fake done by some guy from canada, however if you'll go to some nostradamus sites on the net
you will see that he is talking about the new city which will be hit by fire..

[Raskolnikov]

Well, as I understand Nostrodomis died in the 1500's making that prophecy kinda bogus. He also beleived that people could change the outcome of what he predicted- so for those who take Nostrodomis to heart, remember that The Man sais the ball is in our hands.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally posted by educatedfilm
Raskolnikov... wasn't the name of the guy who killed the old money lender in the book "crime and punishment"?

Bingo. Makes my signature work on a couple of levels, huh?

[educatedfilm]

The clip everyone has been upset by, the clip of the palastinains celebrating, was spotted by some bright spark...
IT'S NOT RECENT! IT'S FROM THE 1991 GULF WAR ON GOINGS!!
I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT THIS HAS TOTALY OBLITRATED MY FIATH IN THE MEDIA. :(.
why the hell would they mislead us like that?... i'm totally lost on this one..

(Raskilnikov:...oh right i get it, i didn't link the two cos i though your signature like alot other poeples was a song lyric..."have trigger will travel" is an at-the drive in lyric, and i thought theyd taken it from an old quote or old song or something... thank you)

[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-17-2001 at 05:58 AM]

[Zeppelin]

are you sure the clip was a fake???
are you that sure palestinians are nice people???
i guess you prefer to live with your eyes closed on certain things...

[educatedfilm]

the clip is definetly OLD, it's not a fake (there's a difference)... it was from 1991, when i think that the troops were pulling out of iraq.
Zepllin i'm not on the palastinains side, but i do feel sorry for BOTH sides, i dont really want to go over our old debate. thats not the point, the point is that what the media has done is as good as lied to us. There may have been palastinains celebrating, but THAT clip wasn't them celebrating the death of americans....
Do your reaserch, you'll see i'm not the only one who's heard this...

[Zeppelin]

i dont know about that specific clip, it can be a fake
but i do know, that there were a few celebrations of the palestinians, after the bombing of the WTC

[Christoph]

Those clips were most certainly not fakes.

I think educatedfilm is just desperate to not have his current way of thinking upset.

So go on lamenting the poor, persecuted Palestinians, educatedfilm. But if you want to know what's really going on, I'm sure you can ask Zeppelin. He seems to be well informed on the subject. He is from Israel after all, and I'm sure he's quite acquainted with the terror of having someone with a bomb strapped to their back running into a cafe, a restaurant, or a theatre.

The attack on the WTC was just one terrorist bombing in America. In Israel, they live with them every day.

[educatedfilm]

"Those clips were most certainly not fakes"
Your not READING my damn reply!
It's not a fake, it's OLD. The clip we saw is from the gulf war (im repeating my self!).
"The attack on the WTC was just one terrorist bombing in America. In Israel, they live with them every day."
If you actualy bothered to read the earlier repleis, you'd find that both me and Zeplin agree there is terrorism on both sides. The only thing we disagree on is that the palastinains are more the victims (he's perfectly intiteled to his oppinion, and to a certain extent i can see why he may disagree).
please do your reaserch before you come in like that (or at least read the DAMN REPLIES).
I didn't say they werent celbrating, i was pointing out the fact THAT clip was misleading.

"But if you want to know what's really going on, I'm sure you can ask Zeppelin."
We know whats going on.
" someone with a bomb strapped to their back running into a cafe, a restaurant, or a theatre"
Give me the most recent example (dont help him out yet zepllin... just to show how little he knows, and tell me the most recent number of palastinains injured and killed? hmmm?).
Zepllin: do you mind if i ask where your originally from? just out of intreset (i dont want to start the debate again)... your english is pretty good...

[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-17-2001 at 12:52 PM]

[Zeppelin]

You know why there are much more injured palestinians???
not because they attack less than israel (usualy we only react their attacks, and never strike first), but because they dont have regular army

[educatedfilm]

"You know why there are much more injured palestinians???"
we are agree there is more damage on the palastinain side...
I can see why you think what you do, cos you'll be kitted out, and put in the front line against these poeple... i can see why there is ill feeling (but i dont have to agree with it)
Could you please do one favour for me? TEll this Christoph... he wont take it from me! Tell him there is terrorism on BOTH sides. ANd that the palastinains like the isrealis are humans too.

"usualy we only react their attacks"
This is the main point,i think the methods used in the reaction is like using a sledge hammer to smash a nutshell (eg, most recently 2 isreali citizens were injured driving thier cars, the retaliation has casued 1 palastinain fatality and 15injuries, and few building were burned out by the rockets...
2 injuried to 1fatality and 15 injured).
and this is the crucial point in the argument where we just have to agree to disagree. know what i mean... i dont really want to pick the debate up again...
it's just poeple like Christoph make me mad.

[Edited by educatedfilm on 09-17-2001 at 01:04 PM]

[Zeppelin]

i dont know hod did you come to this conclusion, but i dont think i should call my country actings terrorism
i know that both sides are hurt by this war, but i also know israel is not the one to blame for this war
i dont think that palestinians hate us, because the media tells me so, but because hundreds of people are affraid to get out of there houses here, and every time i ride a bus, i dont know if i'll get off alife from this bus
that's why i dont like palestinians, i was not burn in israel, and neither were my parents we all come from the former USSR, when my family came to israel we didnt give a damn about people nationality, but 10 years of acts of terror around us made us hate the palestinians
they are liers, the whole thing about el-akza is a one big lie man, the koran doesnt remind jerusalem even once (!)
when in the bible jerusalem repeated hundreds of times
The simple people there suffer only because their authorities support the terror... unlike israel they dont give peace a chance
we did give it a chance by choosing the labor party in the beggining of the 90's unfortunatley the years have shown that the opposite side is not ready for any kind of peace or compromise

[Zeppelin]

man i dont want to start any debates, but you must understand: it really pisses me off to hear people talking
about the palestinian suffer, and the ammount of their victims without even visiting israel once
do you know the Red hot chilli peppers were supposed to play here few weeks ago??
guess why did they cancel...
both sides are suffering, but one side to blame
that's all

[chris mood]

I have spent much time watching the aftermath of the terrorists attacks on t.v. & have not seen any footage of people celebrating. Was this footage shown on all networks? (I've mainly been watching cnn & abc) Where did you get your info. from, & how do you know this is old footage?

Just curious, it sickens me to think that someone would do this for sensationalism.

[Zeppelin]

The clips i saw, was a clip of palestinian kids (i mean 10 and maybe less years old) hanging around with palestinian flags, and then some people , grown ups this time shooting at the air, and dancing on the streets
i saw this clip on a russian chanel (as you may guess they dont like israel or the usa much, so they wouldnt lie just to make palestinians look like bad guys)
the program's host said that people on the streets got candies from people from the terror organizations in the PA, but soon all the demonstrations were stopped, because the official PLO condemned the bombing

[Christoph]

That clip was shown on most major news networks. CNN, FoxNews . . . and now Zeppelin says it was shown on Russian news networks.

Now, do you really think that all these networks would be so stupid as to try to pull something like that? . . . especially when people could easily find out that it was from the Gulf War era.

Even in the off-chance that the clip is old, does it really matter? The fact is that the Palestinians were celebrating, and their PLO leaders told everyone to stop once it got out. That has been confirmed. Whether or not the footage is old makes no difference.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
it's just poeple like Christoph make me mad.

That's because people like me tell the truth.

[educatedfilm]

Chris mood:It's the same clip as Zeplin describes..it was on the english channels. I heard it on the Edweena Currie prgogram [former mp] (on the radio)BBC . this wouldn't be the first time anything like this has happened.
eg. At the beging of the gulf war, there were two women crying they're eyes out saying that they had watched the iraqi soldiers throwing new borns out of incubators in kuwiate city and taking the incubators to Bagdad, Amnisty International has said that this story is false, but it was years too late, and the damage was done.

Christoph: "That's because people like me tell the truth"
how the hell can you be telling the truth if you dont know what your talking about.

Zeplin: i dont think that it was intended by all the channels to make the palastinains look bad, but someone somewhere along the line took the old footage and gave it in, where it was never questioned as being old, untill someone spotted it. However the fact the media doesn't check the acuracy of it's sources means i've lost faith in the media.
One last thing Zepllin, what i say isn't personal it's just my opinion, and i dont have a vote in america or Isreal, so really i wouldn't worry about what i say too much if i were you.

[Zeppelin]

I know it is not personal
but as a proud israeli citizen, i can't
even stand the fact someone compares us to the PLO

[Christoph]

Educatedfilm, intelligent discusion is one thing, but throwing insults around is another. Before you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about you should acquaint yourself with the facts. Why would the Palestinians be celebrating during the Gulf War anyway? Their little buddy Saddam got his ass kicked.

I don't have anything against you, educatedfilm, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how jacked up it may be. While this is the "Open Discussion" forum and we can discuss anything we want, I think this thread should be shut down. We're not going to change any one's opinions, so we should just go back to talking guitars before we piss each other off (whoops, too late).

I'll be happy to discuss this over email, if you want, but I will not reply on this board or read this thread any more.

[zepp_rules]

I believe i see your point, educated film, (don't jump on me if i'm wrong). I thinkn your trying to say that neither side in the PLO/Israel conflict, is innocent. Don't get me worng, i'm jewish and support Israel 100%, but you're right, both sides have commited terrorist attacks. However, if you take a look through history, you'll see that the PLO have commited many more acts of terrorism than the Israelis. I don't want to get into who did what first, because basically every act now is (or is viewed) as retalitory act. It's constantly goes back and forth. Israel has tried to break the cycle and have done a lot. But the PLO has not done anythinng. but i do see your point, and you are right in the sense that neither side is innocent, and i agree with you there.

Zeppelin, though i don't know really what it feels like to be in constant fear of attack, i can get a pretty good idea. I wish that Israel and the PLO can get along, all this terrorism stops. I support you guys all the way! One thing i remember quite clearly is back in 1992, watching the Historic "peace" agreement. I remeber quite clearly watching iit being signed. I've always wondered what happened to that.

I know that most arabs will only be happy once Israel is completely dissolved, i hope it never comes to that. I hope to visit there one day. My sister was supposed to go this year but it got canceled due to PLO attacks.

[skee1]

Originally posted by Christoph
That clip was shown on most major news networks. CNN, FoxNews . . . and now Zeppelin says it was shown on Russian news networks.

Now, do you really think that all these networks would be so stupid as to try to pull something like that? . . . especially when people could easily find out that it was from the Gulf War era.

Even in the off-chance that the clip is old, does it really matter? The fact is that the Palestinians were celebrating, and their PLO leaders told everyone to stop once it got out. That has been confirmed. Whether or not the footage is old makes no difference.

Originally posted by educatedfilm
it's just poeple like Christoph make me mad.

That's because people like me tell the truth.

Those films are what Out-Raged the USA.
Those films are dated 2001 and were shown on all major,
networks,plus local networks in the USA all you have to is,
get on CNN tALK BACK LIVE and ask thats what i did!
THEY SAID 2001 PLUS SO DID CNN..............
So i have to support Christoph.

Mark
P:S Hell check it out for your self don't belive me ok?

[educatedfilm]

I retract my comment on the clip for the time being, untill i can gather more evidence to prove it or disprove it... I have gone to the CNN people and asked them on the subject, but theres no reply yet...
Christoph: feel free to e-mail me, but please if you want to get into a serious debate dont use langauge like:

1"think educatedfilm is just desperate to not have his current way of thinking upset."
2"So go on lamenting the poor, persecuted Palestinians"

and read the earlier replies alot of the stuff we're saying will make more sense...

"Why would the Palestinians be celebrating during the Gulf War anyway? Their little buddy Saddam got his ass kicked."
a)they were celbrating the fact that the troops were pulling out (im pretty sure, although i'm not certain).
b) Suddam has been the enemy of the arabs for alot longer than he has been an enemy of the US (he only became an enemy of the US when he invaded kuwaite, before that he was a freind and being funded to wage war on Iran (please check this for your self, it was during the 80s))
c) absolutly nothing happpened to him, all that's happened is that his poeple were made to suffer even though they had been against him even before the whole kuwaite issue..

[educatedfilm]

Thank you zepp_rules for having an open enough mind to see there are reasons for the alternative opinion.
"thinkn your trying to say that neither side in the PLO/Israel conflict, is innocent. " that's pretty much it.

[ekstasis16]

I thought we all agreed to drop this endless debate.

We all have different perspectives, and the truth just keeps getting lost in the middle of it all.

That's all I have to say anymore.

[emmanuel79]

Hello there... I am a malaysian and I am a christian. Well, I'm very sad to hear about this tragedies and hope I can help as an individual but what can I do? Even my own people also died in the tragedy. It is such a horrible news I've got from my fellow cousin in LA. Well, even our leader condemn the attack and full support on US against these Attackers. Well, we also have our own Twin Towers and even our own people afraid of this kind of attack until someone fooled our people that there is a bomb inside. Lets stop this terrorist activity together and put religion aside as the only enemy is the Terrorist. No religion in this world teach us to kill others for our own goodness. Except satanic or devil worshipers... or criminal who uses religion as an excuse for them to kill and live longer. using religion will also help the evil person get support b'coz they thought it is for religion but in fact it is just an Illusion. America and Malaysia.... u can see the similarity.... the Flag, the Freedom, Civillized.... the harmony of its multi racial people.... God Bless You America and hope we all can be together to fight against the evil doer....

[Joseph]

With what has transpired (with this attack on America,) many people feel that violence isn't the answer to end all of terrorism. But we shouldn't just roll over on our belly and expect for all of this to just fade away. Of course wounds will heal, and soon we'll get back on track with work and everyday life, but there's no telling when our country will face another attack this strong, or perhaps even stronger.

It is well documented that Bin Laden has been trying to buy uranium (to make atomic bombs). If action is not taken now to wipe out the terrorists, then next time there will be a mushroom cloud over NYC. In this country, we shouldn't have to live in fear. We shouldn't have to fear for our kids when they head off to school, at the end of the day, (throughout all of the craziness that goes on,) all we want to do is to be at peace with our ourselves, and our friends and family.

This past weekend, officials in Massachusetts were warned that Boston could have been targeted for a terrorist attack. City officials declined to discuss what was told to them in a phone call, but they said there is no evidence that another attack is in the offing and that residents should not be alarmed. Meanwhile, police in France arrested seven people Friday in connection with an investigation into alleged plans to attack American interests in France, including the U.S. Embassy in Paris. I am not calling for the obliteration of Afghanistan - the Russians did this 20 years ago. But measured military action is the ONLY way to destoy those who want to destroy liberty and freedom.


-Joseph

[PonyOne]

I say we deploy Rammstein to Afghanistan to reign their unique, firey brand of sonic metal death upon the Taliban.

[Christoph]

Hey, that's a great idea.

We should send Rammstein and Slipknot over there. They could bring the Taliban regime to its knees in a few hours.

[Raskolnikov]

I nominate Panera. Anybody who has seen their home videos knows why.