touchy topic....just wondering

[tehplatypus]

before i write what i'm going to, i'll let everyone know that i don't plan on taking this much farther than my initial question and if the children behave like children, i will kill my own thread. i have no qualms about that.


so i have this to ask:


with almost everything in life, the burden of proof lays on proving that something had happened or that something does in fact exist. nowhere is this more the case than with evolution, where it is constantly scrutinized and challeneged to prove itself. and so with that in mind, i ask this:

why is the burden of proof not on the theologians and other religious leaders to prove that their deity is real? why is the burden of proof always put on those in doubt to show that something might not exist? why are those who would ask for scientific evidence presented and researched by independent parties simply frowned upon and shunned?

sorry if this ruffles feathers...but it just seems counter-intuitive to me to require proof for everything but to require proof with religion is so aggressively frowned upon. i mean if someone said they could cure cancer then you asked for proof and they yelled at you for doubting them and saying they don't have to provide proof....wouldn't you think they're a liar and a jerk for being mean to you when you were skeptical?


again, i'm sorry but with the whole pope vs the angry muslims thing recently...i just kinda started thinking about this stuff. i realize religion is something very deeply imbedded in the majority of humanity...but it just seems to be absurd at this point in the history of humanity to not require more and put the burden of proof where it logically belongs.


and to the mods, you're welcome to delete this thread if it makes you squeamish...i understand. i'm not looking to start a fight...just ask questions that it seems are never answered by people. just please send me a love letter so i'll know it wasn't just bumped off the first page. :p


....or not....seems i can't delete threads here...sorry, used to message boards where the people can just delete their own threads or at least lock them.

[magicninja]

Meh, it's alright. Stackny isn't around anymore so most debate's that were lopsided when he was here won't even be debates anymore. Just alot of us agreeing with eachother. Haha just kidding. Anyway the usual answer to your question about why they don't have the burden of proof is simple and any preacher/man of the cloth will tell you the same thing. Almost all religions are based on faith. That's the long and short of it. Faith is a big word to them and they stick by it. It's fine with me. I'm sure if all catholics up and decided to question the Pope about proof the Vatican would have a huge problem but they never will.

[tehplatypus]

Meh, it's alright. Stackny isn't around anymore so most debate's that were lopsided when he was here won't even be debates anymore. Just alot of us agreeing with eachother. Haha just kidding. Anyway the usual answer to your question about why they don't have the burden of proof is simple and any preacher/man of the cloth will tell you the same thing. Almost all religions are based on faith. That's the long and short of it. Faith is a big word to them and they stick by it. It's fine with me. I'm sure if all catholics up and decided to question the Pope about proof the Vatican would have a huge problem but they never will.


meh is right. i dunno, i don't see faith being cracked up for what it's built up to be....it seems to be more trouble than good (note: good deeds don't need faith...killing in the name of whatever god does).


*shrugs* i know it's just me and i'm in the minority...i just wish others could see it from my point of view.

[PonyOne]

Well, some people are attracted to religious faith, because it gives them reasons.

Some people are repulsed by religious faith, because they find no reason in it.

It's one of those tomato/tomato situations (you know what I mean, right? It works better spoken... to-MAY-toe, to-MAH-toe), I suppose.

If you check out Bill Hicks' skit on creationism, which is up on youtube, you may end up laughing yer arse off.

[Krunek]

Blessed are those who have not seen, but believe...
It is in human nature to believe in something. I mean, if you do not have faith, what do you have? Of course, there are those of you who would disagree, but religion is almost the foundation of our culture... I mean, the universe, the life as we know it couldn"t very well became of nothing, right?
At least I stand for that opinion... Maybe religious books, of any religion, are not totally correct. Agreed. There are things that don"t make much sense. I even posted a question closely related to the topic recently. But that does not mean I don"t believe or believe less. It was just a question. But if we doubted every word, where would that lead to? A reason why church was so strongly against Da Vinci code...
People need faith... That is my opinion. I hope i didn"t offended anyone, just posting my opinion.

[ren]

Magic is on the button - it's about faith.

I guess the other main factor is that religion has been established for far longer than science has had to 'fight' it (poor choice of words, couldn't think of a better one).

The burden of proof therefore lies with science as the theological argument is the one to beat. Blind faith doesn't work for me, I need to see things or their effects before I'll believe.

As for the killing - people are intolerant but don't like to either think or admit they are. Accordingly, they'll use any excuse. Religion is a good one because of the faith angle - you can't very well dispute it if a man says God has told him to wage holy war on whoever. We can laugh at him, maybe even think he's crazy, but cannot prove God didn't speak to him.

Bundy blamed violent porn as I recall - it's all ass gravy.

Religion is the opium of the people.... as some beardy guy said (paraphrased)

[Tonja_Renee]

I recently just started reading into the bible because I needed to find out for myself what it is that I beleive..

I too was beleiving that Evolution was based on Science, well its what they taught me in school. But Evolution is just a theory. I'm not sure if it was just my school, but I was led to beleive that this was actually proven, when in fact it was not. Just Theories..

Evolution in my opinion is a religion.. Because you have to have some sort of faith that the world began that way in order to beleive it.

I recently saw some seminars by Dr. Kent Hovind.. Although this guy can be a bit hard to take, he made some very valid points and discoveries with regards to creation. It definately opened my eyes to the "possibilities". I'm still digging further into it for myself. Dr. Kent Hovind (http://www.drdino.com/)

But regardless of what you beleive.. I think faith has to be involved.

[Fret spider]

I recently just started reading into the bible because I needed to find out for myself what it is that I beleive..

I too was beleiving that Evolution was based on Science, well its what they taught me in school. But Evolution is just a theory. I'm not sure if it was just my school, but I was led to beleive that this was actually proven, when in fact it was not. Just Theories..


i am sorry i just dont buy that. evolution may not be proven 100 percent but nothin ever is. just because we say gravity makes things fall doesnt mean that if i drop an apple it will definitly fall, i can be 99.9999999% sure it will but there is always a chance. so what are we to do, not trust that apples are gonna fall, no that would be stupid, cos then we would have to believe in nothing. so it is with evolution, there is not definitive proof, but there are tones of cases were there is an environment, some creatures change, eg become bigger or smaller over generations whilst other creature cant adapt and die. it happens all the time. when we went and domesticated wolves we were drivin evolution harder, forccing only wolves with atriburtes lthat we wanted to breed and create offspring. we made them evolve but to our own specifications not to those of a 'natural environment'.

and also as the man said there is proof that suggests evolution exists and no proof in creationism that isnt directly imagined buy man. saying its in the ible in my opinion is rubbish cos then u are sayin some man who knew nothing of science somhow new what happened many years before.

the reason people want to believe in faith is because there is no reason to exist if we do not belieeve in god. cos i we say killing people is bad because god says so, there is some sort of predefined justification. if we say killing people is bad beacuse i think it is bad, it just doesnt stand up because someone else could also validly say killing is good because i think it is. and if we say it is what the majority believes then the romans would be justified in keeping slaves and making them fight to the death in the colesium and the nazis would be justified in the holocaust.

so where does this leave me, in a horrible situation, i cant believe in god cos i think the evidence doesnt stack up being as there is no evidence for it and tonnes against. but if i dont belive in a god then there is no purpose in life no reason to live, no reason to be knig and generous to people. so my method try to forget about this detail and try to make myself think that the majority creates the morality. even though i know irt doesnt.

[ren]

Evolution in my opinion is a religion.. Because you have to have some sort of faith that the world began that way in order to beleive it.

I guess - sadly none of us were around 4.5 billion years ago to confirm or deny. If we then see everything as a theory, what makes the scientific one more valid is that some attempt is made to substantiate it, and it can be supported although perhaps not proven. I think anything we 'proved' would be wrong in the fullness of time anyway - the people living in a time when the belief was the world was flat probably didn't think anymore about it. There alot for us to learn. One day we'll find out that to travel at the speed of light, all you have to do is put your pants on your head.... and then wonder how we didn't figure it out years ago.

Religion was a way to explain the inexplicable before science came along. Religion is entirely based on faith.

I read the bible a while ago, and I didn't find anything there for me. I won't talk about that as I don't want to offend. The only 'God' angle I still mull over is that lots the scientific bits I've picked up talk about what a ridiculous number of ridiculously unlikely events would have had to transpire in a ridiculously unlikely order to get us to where we are. With a probability of 0.000000000001% or whatever, maybe we're not a cosmic accident, but whether a higher power was involved I've no idea.

The experiments at CERN shortly may prove or disprove the existence of God... or suck us all into a black hole...

[Tonja_Renee]

You know something... I struggled with that for many years. I fought religion and faith.. Those comments you made.. I could see me making them..

And you guys have just made me realize something.. I have faith. I didn't think I did.. But i do. I guess maybe I always did.

Thank you!!

[Dr_simon]

because religion is not scientific and requires no proof to justify its belief structure. It is a system of beliefs. (proof subverting faith and all that)

On the other hand the theory of evolution is not based on beliefs it is based on evidence and so is subject to a whole new set of rules.

They are two totally different things / arguments.

Is one system more valid than the other...

well that is up to you !

[Andrew Sa]

I'm with the Doc, and I dont think that religion and science should be mutually exclusive.

I dont think that science is a belief at all, as everything studied in science is simply a model, it is not believed, not even trusted, and challenges to theories are welcome and even encouraged.

I personally dont see how any one, could completely discount the possibilty of evolution, I think the observations and discoveries noted, that point in the direction of evolution are too convincing to be ignored completely...as such, I dont think creationalism is a valid alternative...but if you do,thats cool by me...neither of us can prove the other wrong...andlike I said science is not a believe, so I'm not gonna fight for it.

I guess ultimately its all up to you, but I do think that believe held too strongly, becomes dangerous...there is always room for improvement and refinement,and even correction.

[Krunek]

You know something... I struggled with that for many years. I fought religion and faith.. Those comments you made.. I could see me making them..

And you guys have just made me realize something.. I have faith. I didn't think I did.. But i do. I guess maybe I always did.

Thank you!!

And a good thing it is... Never be ashamed of it. I, up to this day, when sitting at the table for some more official meal, cross myself and say grace... For me, at least. And I am known to be crazy as a bucket... Did some pretty wild things... hey, I am a guitarist... ;)
Hold on to your faith Tonja. it is not a bad thing. :)

[earthman buck]

Funny this thread should come up now, I had a religious based dream just the other night that has been kind of bugging me ever since.

Basically, I was in the army (which is odd in itself), and I was watching this conflict unfold from above. On one side there were a bunch of Muslims, and on the other side were a bunch of Catholic priests and the Pope. A big fight erupted, so I jumped down to try and stop people from getting hurt. One of the Muslim men pulled out a machete and was about to bring it down on the Pope's head, so I shot him in the back. As soon as I did this, all the other Muslims ran away and the Catholics began cheering and celebrating. Then the Pope lifted a girl off the ground by her hair and gave a speech about how she was a witch and needed to be beheaded. I thought to myself, "Son of a b**ch, I can't believe I saved that a**hole!" and shot him in the head.


I think a religion is just a set of beliefs someone has. My religion, for example, does not really have a name, as it is just fragments of different religions and zany theories I happen to believe in. I have no problem with religion, since everyone has beliefs. What I do have a problem with is organized religions, and people who believe in them to the point where they are willing to do crazy things just to defend their religion of choice. For example, I simply cannot understand how someone can say "I am a Christian because I was raised that way" and leave it at that. To me, that phrase implies you believe everything the Bible says, and I just don't understand how someone can unquestioningly believe EVERY SINGLE WORD of any text.

I think more people should believe in what they feel is right, rather than just stick to the religion they were raised on. If they research other theories or ideas and wind up coming back to their original faith, fair enough, but at least investigate a little bit. Give other faiths a chance. There's absolutely no need to pigeon-hole yourself into one set of beliefs and look down upon all others.

[jiujitsu_jesus]

I think more people should believe in what they feel is right, rather than just stick to the religion they were raised on. If they research other theories or ideas and wind up coming back to their original faith, fair enough, but at least investigate a little bit. Give other faiths a chance. There's absolutely no need to pigeon-hole yourself into one set of beliefs and look down upon all others.

For me, Earthman's hit it right on the head. At risk of sounding like a raving preacher-man here, I believe that everybody - EVERYBODY, all human beings, whether they know/believe it or not - finds their own path to God, through their own set of beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, God appears to everyone in different ways; a religion, organised or otherwise, is simply there to guide individuals on their path to God. I, for example, am a Catholic; that is the religion I have chosen to help me find God, and it's no more or less valid as a means of doing so than any other. Religion is a collective thing, but it is also deeply individual, if that makes any sense. I guess the answer to your question is that everybody has their own individual standard of proof as far as faith is concerned: it depends on the path to eternal inner peace that individuals choose, be that Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, Wicca, Agnosticism, Humanism, or even an atheist set of values - whatever, it's different for everybody, I suppose.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

[Grambo]

A friend of mine told me that a 'spiritual area', had been discovered in the brain, supposed to have evolved to aid our survival - don't really know if this is true ?

[ericthecableguy]

For example, I simply cannot understand how someone can say "I am a Christian because I was raised that way" and leave it at that. To me, that phrase implies you believe everything the Bible says, and I just don't understand how someone can unquestioningly believe EVERY SINGLE WORD of any text.


Well...I do believe every word of it, personally. You have to understand that in the Bible, God promises that it's all true. So if you don't believe everything in it...you believe God has broken a promise...the Bible also says that God will never break a promise.

I was raised Christian, and to be honest my family is miles away from being perfect Christians, but when I people say 'I was raised Christian', i mean that i grew up in a Christian family, and was exposed to the teachings and they all made sense to me.

You might call this brainwashing, but it's not like anyone's controlling our lives or anything. It is a free lifestyle, that has proved to be nothing but beneficial and happiness for me.

There are so many questions i don't know the answers to, but they never cause me to doubt my faith, because as humans, how could we possibly understand the mind of an omnipotent being?

[Grambo]

I read this on a very old gravestone:

it's not my Acts of Moses law
That I recieved this Heaven
But through the Blood of Jesus Christ
My sins will be forgiven

[hunter60]

Interesting topic and I can see a certain validity to every post here.

Myself, I am a Christian and like many others, I was raised that way. But as an adult, I realized that I was not about to have someone dictate my religious or non-religious views. I would find out for myself. So that I did. I read as much as I could handle regarding various theologies and scientific thoughts about the origin of man and the purpose and/or meaning of life.

The one thought that kept coming around was this; if there is no God, if Christ did not walk among us and die for us, then there is no meaning. None. If man just 'happened' to appear on earth through some astronomical percentage play and there was no life before and no life after then why are we here? What's the point? Why do we have laws? Why do we love? Why do we hate? Why do we create? If there is no God then wouldn't the end all be anarchy? Why wouldn't we kill any and all who oppose us (on a personal level?) You know, if someone cuts you off in traffic, why not jump out of your car and go after him with a ball bat?

We don't, not because we're basically good creatures - we don't because of fear. Either fear of our fellow man or fear of the law. Mankind on its' own is a horrible thought. Mankind under the eye of God provides hope.

And no, I cannot explain why horrible things happen in the world. And no, I won't throw out the platitude that 'God works in mysterious ways.' We're talking about man trying to understand the thoughts and direction of THE ONE. The one who controls all. The one who created us. Attempts to understand God is like a garden slug trying to understand a nuclear reactor. Just because he can't doesn't nullify the existence of the reactor.

I've always felt that it's a combination of the two prevailing theories. Evolution and Creation. Who's to say that God didn't set the thing in motion? There are verses in the bible that refer to a millenium being like a day to God. When man wrote that God created the Earth in seven days, can we say that God's day and man's day are measured the same? How does a strict Creationist explain fossils and carbon dating? Sure, we can see examples of adaptation in nature (and in man if you look). Call me crazy but I think that God may look upon the earth and man as something like a terrarium that he set up and kinda kicked into motion.

As an aside, Karl Marx is the one who wrote "Religion ... is the opium of the people" in Critique of the Hegelian Philosophy of Right in 1841.

It was not a condemnation of religion as many people think. Look it up on line and give it a quick read. Marx was an interesting guy. Crazy as a loon at times but right on track in other things...

Just a thought.

[ericthecableguy]

And no, I cannot explain why horrible things happen in the world. And no, I won't throw out the platitude that 'God works in mysterious ways.' We're talking about man trying to understand the thoughts and direction of THE ONE. The one who controls all. The one who created us. Attempts to understand God is like a garden slug trying to understand a nuclear reactor. Just because he can't doesn't nullify the existence of the reactor.


Exactly what i was getting at bud! We think were brilliant making all these 'so why would God' or 'how could God possibly' questions, all the while not realizing that He has a mind to create everything . How could we possibly understand what he's thinking?

[R. Shackleferd]

Looking at it from the perspective of "if there's no God, then there's no reason for life...so there has to be a God" is awfully egotistical to me, imho. Why does there necessarily have to be a reason for life? For instance, how much of the rest of the universe is "dead"? So what's the point of that? And one day our own star will die and Earth will be consumed. So even though we might've had a good run, still, what's the point then?

Now, all that being said, I do however lean towards that there does seem to be some underlying force that makes life "want" to create and live. Something that makes all our assigned "laws" of chemistry, physics, biology, etc come together and make something greater than the sum of it's parts. And once created, there's obviously an inner drive in all creatures to continue to live, and make more. Yet I also don't look at like it's a great caring Mother Nature. No, Nature as a whole is apathetic, and can and will wipe out any existence by any number of means.
So, while I might believe in what is typically termed the soul, I have no faith in the typical God of religions, and especially in the books of those religions, which I find ample evidence of borrowing fables and lessons from others (the most obvious perhaps being the Great Flood). Not to say there isn't wisdom to be gained from such writings, but I won't ever accept them as the unchallengable truth, just because it says so.

[tehplatypus]

how could we possibly understand the mind of an omnipotent being?


this is assuming there is a god. and actually a lot of things are within comprehension and more and more things get within our grasp as technology gets better and as education gets better and generally as we learn more about ourselves and the world and universe around us.

which brings us back to burden of proof.


you're welcome to believe what you want. but at the end of the day, burden of proof rests on those trying to proove something is there. you don't HAVE to proove anything....just if you're not going to...stay out of my government and science classes.

repeating for emphasis so that this is made clear that i'm not encroaching on your choices(or at least trying..): you're more than welcome and free to believe what you want and what you feel is right.

[tehplatypus]

http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/


this comes off to me as child abuse....

[Krunek]

Ok, since we are debating here... Again, no offense to anyone. I respect everyone"s opinion and a point of view. It is a free world. Or most of it is, at least. :( Anyhow, just a question here. I, as you have probably seen so far, believe in God an am religious. A catholic, I am. So, believing in God, I also believe in devil. And, by bible, Lucifer is but a little weaker than God. So, in a way, he is also well, not omnipotent, but close. Well, the question is: If a Lucifer is also omnipotent being, is sotonism, as such a religion??
I mean, to me it is wrong, but then, thy shall not judge. Everyone has a right to his/hers opinion... So, what do you guys/girls think?

[z0s0_jp]

were all worm food....deal with it.....thus religion is born :D

[jiujitsu_jesus]

Ok, since we are debating here... Again, no offense to anyone. I respect everyone"s opinion and a point of view. It is a free world. Or most of it is, at least. :( Anyhow, just a question here. I, as you have probably seen so far, believe in God an am religious. A catholic, I am. So, believing in God, I also believe in devil. And, by bible, Lucifer is but a little weaker than God. So, in a way, he is also well, not omnipotent, but close. Well, the question is: If a Lucifer is also omnipotent being, is sotonism, as such a religion??
I mean, to me it is wrong, but then, thy shall not judge. Everyone has a right to his/hers opinion... So, what do you guys/girls think?

Interesting point... personally, I always thought (but am probably dead wrong) that Satan was more a symbol of the absence of God, rather than another omnipotent being; so the worship of the absence of God doesn't make much sense to me. But hey, if you get spiritual fulfillment out of Satanism, who am I to judge it? If it does that for people, it's valid as a religion. Judge not, indeed.

And hunter - great post. Rep is forthcoming.

[acapella]

I think that satanism is mostly just an excuse for people to do whatever they want and be jerks. The main appeal of satanism is that it promotes all the things that christianity says you shouldn't do, like casual sex, violence, pretty much do anything that you want and don't worry about a thing. Of course, it is only logical for satanism to promote sin, I mean, isn't that kind of how he's supposed to get your soul? And then, a lot of people just do it to be cool. The only thing seems pretty stupid and childish to me. I guess you could call it a religion, but it seems like more the abscense of one.

[markc2005]

im do not thin god exists as a being or a spiritual force or anything and that god is individual to everyone and basicly covers good or bad.
In science i dont think it will be ever possible that a god does not not exist because there will allways be someone that will say god did that or god mae that
personally i cant comprehend how god could make everything the closest i can imagine is starting a chain of event that could lead to how things are today.
dunno if that makes sense but i guess i support science mostly

[earthman buck]

If man just 'happened' to appear on earth through some astronomical percentage play and there was no life before and no life after then why are we here? What's the point? Why do we have laws? Why do we love? Why do we hate? Why do we create?
If we appeared as living creatures in the random process you have described, then there is no meaning to our existence. It was luck (or maybe a lack thereof), simple as that.

I think that satanism is mostly just an excuse for people to do whatever they want and be jerks. The main appeal of satanism is that it promotes all the things that christianity says you shouldn't do, like casual sex, violence, pretty much do anything that you want and don't worry about a thing. Of course, it is only logical for satanism to promote sin, I mean, isn't that kind of how he's supposed to get your soul? And then, a lot of people just do it to be cool. The only thing seems pretty stupid and childish to me. I guess you could call it a religion, but it seems like more the abscense of one.
I don't think that's quite what Satanism is, but I may be wrong. From what I've read on Wikipedia about Satanism, I think it basically works on the idea that there is no God, there is only yourself, and therefore you are your own personal God. A main principle of Satanism is doing what makes you feel good, as it appeases your 'personal God.' For some people, that could be "being a jerk," as you put it, but not all.

[ericthecableguy]

Here's the rundown on satanism:

Found by Anton LaVey in 1966.
The Nine Satanic Statements
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years

It pretty much does sound at lot to me like an excuse to be a jerk.
Basically not giving a hoot about other people and giving up on people you don't think deserve love.

[magicninja]

Ok guys I'm gonna lay it out for you.

I do not believe in any God that man has created. I think the God's and religion man has created came out of necessity for order. That's fine and it still applies today and quite frankly we could use more people who live thier life by the Bible. I respect people who live by the teachings of the Bible. The hardline people who take the Bible as pure truth however I just don't get. I hear alot of you posting about if there is no God what is the meaning of life? Well it's simple and if you have kids someday you will know the purpose of life. Continuation of the species. Now, being a species of moderate intelligence we should as a civilization be able to mold our path. Right now we are in turmoil. Everybody wants something different. I personally would enjoy a world government geared toward feeding everyone and making sure everyone is helping towards a common goal. I think that common goal should be space travel to other planets. If we stay here and destroy ourselves then there was no point our civilization. It kinda takes the wind out of the sails of religious text when not one mentions traveling to space. Does God expect us just to stay here? I would think not. Our destiny is our own. Collectively as a people if we don't work together in common goals as human beings we are all doomed. Whether it be trying to all work together to eradicate hunger or Aids or whatever else. Money is always a problem it seems. What no one seems to understand is that money is an illusion. If it were not for money and religion I think the sky would be the limit for our race. We are too greedy in that we only care about what is best for our country, our town, our family. We don't care what is best for the human race as a whole. This my friends will be our downfall. The rich don't want a change. The poor really don't have a say in anything.The middle class well we're just living and that seems to be ok with everyone. I'm embarrassed for the people of Earth. We go around all self important when we don't realize one way or another nothing we do will matter. The only things that will matter is either when we get to the point where we nuke ourselves back to the stoneage or a leader arises that can talk some sense into the power hungry idiots who keep us working to half our potential. That will be the turning point in our evolution. Until then we can all sit around and talk about how pointless life seems.

[Hammurabi]

The amusing thing about satanism is nobody who sincerely believes their principles and philosophy would ever pay the $200 for a red card.

[PonyOne]

Ok guys I'm gonna lay it out for you.

I do not believe in any God that man has created. I think the God's and religion man has created came out of necessity for order. That's fine and it still applies today and quite frankly we could use more people who live thier life by the Bible. I respect people who live by the teachings of the Bible. The hardline people who take the Bible as pure truth however I just don't get. I hear alot of you posting about if there is no God what is the meaning of life? Well it's simple and if you have kids someday you will know the purpose of life. Continuation of the species. Now, being a species of moderate intelligence we should as a civilization be able to mold our path. Right now we are in turmoil. Everybody wants something different. I personally would enjoy a world government geared toward feeding everyone and making sure everyone is helping towards a common goal. I think that common goal should be space travel to other planets. If we stay here and destroy ourselves then there was no point our civilization. It kinda takes the wind out of the sails of religious text when not one mentions traveling to space. Does God expect us just to stay here? I would think not. Our destiny is our own. Collectively as a people if we don't work together in common goals as human beings we are all doomed. Whether it be trying to all work together to eradicate hunger or Aids or whatever else. Money is always a problem it seems. What no one seems to understand is that money is an illusion. If it were not for money and religion I think the sky would be the limit for our race. We are too greedy in that we only care about what is best for our country, our town, our family. We don't care what is best for the human race as a whole. This my friends will be our downfall. The rich don't want a change. The poor really don't have a say in anything.The middle class well we're just living and that seems to be ok with everyone. I'm embarrassed for the people of Earth. We go around all self important when we don't realize one way or another nothing we do will matter. The only things that will matter is either when we get to the point where we nuke ourselves back to the stoneage or a leader arises that can talk some sense into the power hungry idiots who keep us working to half our potential. That will be the turning point in our evolution. Until then we can all sit around and talk about how pointless life seems.
Agreed.

I think I said something similar in another thread. If we just knocked of all... this then we could go much better places as a whole.

[jiujitsu_jesus]

Here's the rundown on satanism:

Found by Anton LaVey in 1966.


It pretty much does sound at lot to me like an excuse to be a jerk.
Basically not giving a hoot about other people and giving up on people you don't think deserve love.

Apologies to any Satanists on the board, but I laughed my head off at that! Especially the "psychic vampires" bit... :D

[tehplatypus]

Fundamental Individualism

Satanism is often mistaken as being a religion that encourages cruelty and irresponsible behaviour, but LaVey's brand is very different. Central is the idea inherited from Nietzsche that an individual must enforce his own meaning on life and rise above the perceived conformity of the masses. The Satanist is seen as equivalent to Nietzsche's Übermensch; LaVey claimed "Satanists are born, not made" and that "[Satanists] have a disease called independence that needs to be recognised just like alcoholism." There is a libertarian element here; diversity is encouraged, everyone is expected to discover their own sexuality, chart their own personality, and decide their own ambitions in life. In this stress on individuality, Satanism is considered a "Left-Hand Path" religion.


Satanism and Self-Transformation

Adherents to "life-denying" religions are often regarded as self-abnegating in their devotion to their own servility. LaVey's Satanic creed viewed religion as promoting an impersonal relationship with what the churches referred to as "God". Satanism was presented as an opportunity to self-identify with one's own concept of God. Great attention was paid to details gleaned from Noir films like White Heat and The Big Sleep in creating one's ideal Self from deliberately invoked forms.


The Satanic Golden Rule

Lex talionis, the Law of Retaliation (lex/legis f. nom, "law" and talio/talionis f. gen, "retaliation, returning like unto like") informed much of LaVey's Satanic formulation. "Do unto others as they do unto you" supplanted the Christian directive to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", so that you are only to give compassion and sympathy to those who deserve it. It is a reactive rule, compared with the Christian proactive rule; further it is a rule that most Satanists try to live by. By the rule, love, compassion, and sympathy are not to be wasted upon ingrates; these are to be given only to those who deserve them. LaVey felt that intelligent and strong people spent too much time caring for psychic vampires — weak individuals who always demanded attention and care, yet would never give any back. He taught that Satanists should strive to remove themselves as much as possible from such people in order to live in accordance to their instincts and individual wills.

God in Satanism

The Satanist does not believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea of God; the function of God is performed and satisfied by the Satanist him/herself. That is, the needs of worship, ritual, and religious/spiritual focus are directed, effectively, inwards towards the Satanist, as opposed to outwards, towards God.

LaVey proposes instead that as all gods are creations of man, worship of an external deity is worship of its creator by proxy. He suggests, then, that the rational Satanist should instead internalize his god, and therefore worship himself; hence the Satanic maxim, "I am my own god."

It follows that Satanism shuns the idea of belief in all other deities as well, including, to the surprise of many, Satan. Satan is viewed as a literary archetype, along the lines of John Milton's epic hero. This archetype is viewed not as a negative figure, but as a positive image of pride and mastery in opposition to servitude, faith, and humility.

Belief in any such externalized deities is generally considered grounds for excluding someone as a Satanist, and devil worship in particular is considered nothing more than a misguided inversion of Christianity.

----------------------

take out the goth trash and i pretty much agree with the ideas put forward by satanism. still not too sure about the law of retaliation, though...but i'm a little too compassionate to fully embrace something like that. except i'm agnostic so i'm open to the idea that there could possibly be a god but no such proof has been given yet.

[ren]

The bits on satanism posted above hold some truth for me. The retaliation thing is something that I have in my life. Like most others I've been brought up with the whole 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you....' thing, but eventually got sick of the fact that although I can treat everyone else appropriately, not everyone else treats me properly.

In this instance, I fall back to the logical 'do unto others as they have done unto you' thinking as above. It doesn't always work, but my personal 'religion' is based on fairness - it's just that fairness is subjective.

I don't believe in a God. I think religion is a crutch for those who follow it, and I think faith is a way to mask the fact that none of it stands up to the usual level of human scrutiny. I think the modern term for most of my 'beliefs' is humanism, although to be honest I get lost in it all. I know I'm agnostic as opposed to an actual atheist - In my opinion it's as redundant to deny the existence entirely of something we have not proven either way as it is to believe. When God turns up at my house and asks for a beer, he's more than welcome..... Until then I'll take his existence with a pinch of salt.

[earthman buck]

Yeah, a lot of that Satanism stuff seems pretty sensible to me. I guess the best way to sum up my beliefs is this:

Do what you want, just don't hurt anyone.

[R. Shackleferd]

If what's described above is Satanism, what are the people who make sacrifices around pentagrams and truly deify Satan? And no, that's not just totally made up stuff for the movies.

[Lordathestrings]

Could a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?

[Dr_simon]

Can anyone say cartoon violence !!

[ren]

Could a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?

I note the irony, and can't explain it either (And I don't meet the criteria above!)

None of the Muslims I know are in any way represented by the 'Muslim Community' portrayed in the media. With my Muslim friends, it would be a bit like this:

Me: "Did you hear what the Pope said about Islam / Mohammed?"
Mate: (Either) "No, but who cares? He can have an opinion" or "Yeah.... meh.... who cares"

I wonder how hard a news crew has to try to find the now standard "angry Mulim rent-a-mob"?

As has doubtless been posted before and will again, people looking for trouble will always find it and put a banner around it. It is a shame that people are that stupid though.... as you say, no reaction at all would have done a better job of proving the Pope wrong.

Also, the guy who shouted down the Home Secretary for being 'Anti-Islamic' and then accused the UK / police with state terrorism and curtailing freedoms this week probably would have got less media coverage had he not been dragged out mid-rant by the police...

It was funny though.... :D

It must be an over-simplification, although I fail to see why.... people just need to calm the **** down....

[R. Shackleferd]

http://www.originalicons.com/images/icons/Culture/Southern/1099849239_683468572.gif
I heard an interesting comparison regarding Islam and the current perception of Muslims. During the U.S. Civil War, the Confederate south seceded from the Union, for several reasons (not just the issue of slavery, as is often assumed). So they adopted their own flag, commonly termed the Rebel Flag. Thousands of men fight and die by that flag, and despite the loss of the war, the flag remains a symbol of Southern pride and independence, and is highly regarded throughout. However a relatively small group emerges...the Ku Klux Klan, which I presume needs no description. And they of course continue to use this symbol in their own racial agenda, which includes violence and murder. To be sure, some southerners at the time might've been sympathetic to their cause, but overwhelmingly most disagree with their tactics. But even from those who totally disagree, there is little outcry, out of fear of retribution or harassment, or just pure indifference. So sadly, the Confederate Flag has since become commonly associated as a symbol of racism, violence, and hate.
So unless those who are grouped together with others make a stand from within against using tactics, symbols, or whatever for their own extreme agendas, it's too easy to associate those with the larger group.

[jiujitsu_jesus]

Could a Muslim please explain to me how rioting, burning churches, and killing a nun serve to repudiate the claim that Islam fosters violence?

I'm not a Muslim, but I think I can explain it... the Qur'an unconditionally condemns violence in some parts, but in others, makes reference to a "holy war" and to "beating" your spouse. Dr. Leila Ahmed, however, having interpreted the Qur'an in the linguistic and socio-historical context OF THE TIME that it was written (basically, interpreting it as a text, not just taking it at face value ;)), has ascertained that these phrases do not literally refer to a war or to violence against your spouse, but to an inner spiritual struggle and to taking legal action against your spouse respectively. However, she continues, these phrases have been misinterpreted by patriarchal and/or warlike societies, and taken at face value; the result is the kind of Islam that you see on the front page or on the evening news. So yeah - Islam does in fact repudiate violence, but you certainly wouldn't know it from the media's perspective.

Hope some of that made sense. It's early. :o

[Superhuman]

Excuse the slight tangent but this is one of the few topics that drives me crazy. Don't have time to type at the mo but Creation Scinece etc, is NOT science it is unfounded voodoo. Seemingly intelligent people who refuse to listen to reason or accept the facts over what was written in a book some odd thousand years ago... a book which we all know as fact was rewritten and changed many times during the dark ages to satisfy the powers of the vatican and religious states as a means of controlling the masses.

If you look at most religions you will see that have evolved into vehicles of control over the genral masses - seriously just look at how Bush got himself elected (awaiting red hot flames!). In the absence of education and or knowledge it is and has always been in mans nature to turn toward the most unlikely explaination eg an all powerful spirit that actually cares whether you work on Sunday or an all powerful spirit that created everyone so that the ones who believe in him can kill those who do not as they spread the faith 'by the sword'...

Science fact vs science fiction is the way I look at. Hope I didnt offend anyone but thats been on my mind for a long time !

[ericthecableguy]

In the absence of education and or knowledge it is and has always been in mans nature to turn toward the most unlikely explaination eg an all powerful spirit that actually cares whether you work on Sunday or an all powerful spirit that created everyone so that the ones who believe in him can kill those who do not as they spread the faith 'by the sword'...


Sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but when has GOd ever told Christians to kill non-christians. There's a little to much hearsay in that paragraph IMO.

[magicninja]

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but when has GOd ever told Christians to kill non-christians. There's a little to much hearsay in that paragraph IMO.
If I'm not mistaken during the Crusades the Pope "absolved" all the particiants for sins they may commit during the war. Now maybe God didn't order the killing of thousands but it seems he certainly condoned it.

[ericthecableguy]

Now maybe God didn't order the killing of thousands but it seems he certainly condoned it.

Exactly what I meant. How do you figure he could have condoned it when he orders people not to kill eachother?

[Superhuman]

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but when has GOd ever told Christians to kill non-christians. There's a little to much hearsay in that paragraph IMO.
I was boradly painting all religions with the same brush, I suppose that particular point is applicaple to Islam (or at least as interpreated by extremists)

[magicninja]

Exactly what I meant. How do you figure he could have condoned it when he orders people not to kill eachother?
That's exacxtly why I hate organized religion. The hypocrisy is so blatant. Don't kill people but during the Crusades if you have to kill a few women and children i'll make sure God forgives you. Because killing in God's name is ok.

[Superhuman]

Exactly what I meant. How do you figure he could have condoned it when he orders people not to kill eachother?

Exactly, it's about how those in power through out the ages have twisted the original messages of various religions in order to impose their own will and forward their own nefarious designs over 'the great unwashed'...

The Koran also refers to killing as being evil as does the Bible but the Crusaders and the Islamic fundamentalists seem to have thrown a blind eye over that 99% of the text...

Enough religious debate from me! I'm about to have a few beers and the last thing I want on mind after the 10 pints is politics or religion :D

[Lordathestrings]

... I'm about to have a few beers and the last thing I want on mind after the 10 pints is politics or religion :D

Meh, to each his own...

When my parents came t visit me, My mother and I got into a huge debate about politics, and when my father tried to get us to calm down, we both told him to shut up and quit spoiling the fun! :D

[tehplatypus]

http://www.originalicons.com/images/icons/Culture/Southern/1099849239_683468572.gif
I heard an interesting comparison regarding Islam and the current perception of Muslims. During the U.S. Civil War, the Confederate south seceded from the Union, for several reasons (not just the issue of slavery, as is often assumed). So they adopted their own flag, commonly termed the Rebel Flag. Thousands of men fight and die by that flag, and despite the loss of the war, the flag remains a symbol of Southern pride and independence, and is highly regarded throughout. However a relatively small group emerges...the Ku Klux Klan, which I presume needs no description. And they of course continue to use this symbol in their own racial agenda, which includes violence and murder. To be sure, some southerners at the time might've been sympathetic to their cause, but overwhelmingly most disagree with their tactics. But even from those who totally disagree, there is little outcry, out of fear of retribution or harassment, or just pure indifference. So sadly, the Confederate Flag has since become commonly associated as a symbol of racism, violence, and hate.
So unless those who are grouped together with others make a stand from within against using tactics, symbols, or whatever for their own extreme agendas, it's too easy to associate those with the larger group.


what's funny about the stars and bars....if you actually read the confederate constitution...it did more to take away state's rights than to preserve them...now whether that document was to be temporary or permenant....it basically gave a lot of power to the federal government and very little to the states. one area of the confederate constition i really liked though was the part specifically stating that riders on laws was prohibited....we really need to do that now. riders are getting out of control. one law should be one law...not the funding for veterans/tax cut for the upper 1% bill. you know?

sorry to get off base but after doing research...it was a lot about slavery and while the union was hurting what would become the confederacy...the actual constitution the confederacy was founded upon did very little to grant states their rights as claimed by many.

as far as muslims go.


the idiots who do that garbage in the name of islam are about the same number of idiots who protest soldiers' funerals because "god hates fags" as they would so eloquently put it. they're in the minority, some are actually forced into doing it by way of threats on family members or are promised that their family will actually beable to eat. others are just ignorant radical idiots who have been suckered in by a bunch of chicken hawks....wow, sounds like some of the people in our military.

[jiujitsu_jesus]

the idiots who do that garbage in the name of islam are about the same number of idiots who protest soldiers' funerals because "god hates fags" as they would so eloquently put it.

Haha, I remember seeing a comedy show (I forget which one) where some guy actually went to one of those anti-gay protests and started flirting with one of the male protesters! It was absolutely hilarious. :D

[ericthecableguy]

Enough religious debate from me! I'm about to have a few beers and the last thing I want on mind after the 10 pints is politics or religion :D

Cheers. Guess I'll pull out too. I can't debate and I don't want to risk having a lower opinion of any of you...these things can get heated. ;)

Signing of...Eric.

[tehplatypus]

If what's described above is Satanism, what are the people who make sacrifices around pentagrams and truly deify Satan? And no, that's not just totally made up stuff for the movies.


people who deify satan are just idiotic. they're basically saying "the christians are right but i want to go the other way."

but sometimes religions that don't even deal with the judeo-christian-muslim god get associated with satanic ritual simply because it involves mysticism and animal sacrifice. it's pretty rediculous how superstitious and easily scared by the unknown some christians can be.

[jiujitsu_jesus]

people who deify satan are just idiotic. they're basically saying "the christians are right but i want to go the other way."

but sometimes religions that don't even deal with the judeo-christian-muslim god get associated with satanic ritual simply because it involves mysticism and animal sacrifice. it's pretty rediculous how superstitious and easily scared by the unknown some christians can be.

Because I agree with that: do you is it then unethical for me to listen to anti-Christian death metal? I mean, I love Morbid Angel and Cynic; I can't understand what they're trying to sing/scream anyway, so I don't notice the lyrics.

[Superhuman]

Because I agree with that: do you is it then unethical for me to listen to anti-Christian death metal? I mean, I love Morbid Angel and Cynic; I can't understand what they're trying to sing/scream anyway, so I don't notice the lyrics.

Just a quick FYI, check out the Cynic lyrics, no satanic references! Just clean deep thinking :)

[tehplatypus]

Because I agree with that: do you is it then unethical for me to listen to anti-Christian death metal? I mean, I love Morbid Angel and Cynic; I can't understand what they're trying to sing/scream anyway, so I don't notice the lyrics.


why would it be? god gave you free will, right? it's not like you're mimicing the lyrics or anything.

music isn't evil. some thoughts are...but people have to be wary of thoughts that are evil and thoughts that just provoking one to think and reconsider their own stances.

[Grambo]

were all worm food....deal with it.....thus religion is born :D

Apparently we're buried six foot down to avoid worms - thankfully.

[PonyOne]

Apparently we're buried six foot down to avoid worms - thankfully.
Though the process of putrifying that takes place in a hermetically sealed metal casket is far more revolting. You basically end up a skeleton in a suit in a bunch of sludge that used to be your skin, muscles, etc. I used to think cremation was creepy, until I found out about that...

[Grambo]

Death......best avoided

[jiujitsu_jesus]

Just a quick FYI, check out the Cynic lyrics, no satanic references! Just clean deep thinking :)

Cool! Now if we add them to Saviour Machine and As I Lay Dying, and you have three metal bands who wouldn't be interested in burning down all the churches in Europe! :D

[earthman buck]

Cool! Now if we add them to Saviour Machine and As I Lay Dying, and you have three metal bands who wouldn't be interested in burning down all the churches in Europe! :D
I have two semi-related things to say about that.

1) This is one of the most interesting band bios I have ever read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayhem_%28band%29)
2) At the moment I'm reading this, you have 1,666 posts. Weird.

[ericthecableguy]

Subsequent Mayhem bootleg Dawn of the Black Hearts. Euronymous was particularly cold and opportunistic about Dead's suicide; in interviews he claimed, speciously, that Dead had killed himself due to the rising popularity of death metal, the American movement Black Metal had risen against. According to Hellhammer, Euronymous took pieces of Dead's brain and made a stew, in which he put ham, frozen vegetables, and paprika. "He'd always said he wanted to eat flesh, so he figured this was an easy way." Euronymous also claimed to have collected and forged fragments of Dead's skull into necklaces, sending pieces to those he felt 'worthy'. Hellhammer has said he made a necklace from Dead's skull fragments as well.

My goodness. Brain stew. This guy is screwed in the head.
Here is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mayhem_dawnoftheblackhearts.jpg) the picture. WARNING-A Little disturbing.

In all my life I will never understand these people.



***********
I was going to start a new thread about this, but it kind of all fits in in a weird way i think...
I haven't been truly scared for probably about ten years. Today broke that streak.
Today I went to a blue jays game in Toronto (Beat the red socks 13-4). We were walking back to the car, and on a street corner was this lady. She was probably about 20. She looked like a skeleton. She was obviously coked out of her mind. She had this freaky hollow look, and she just stood there. She was holding a newspaper and just dropped it...and stood there. Then she looked right at me. It was the scariest thing I've ever seen...

Once again...I will never understand these people.

[tehplatypus]

I was going to start a new thread about this, but it kind of all fits in in a weird way i think...
I haven't been truly scared for probably about ten years. Today broke that streak.
Today I went to a blue jays game in Toronto (Beat the red socks 13-4). We were walking back to the car, and on a street corner was this lady. She was probably about 20. She looked like a skeleton. She was obviously coked out of her mind. She had this freaky hollow look, and she just stood there. She was holding a newspaper and just dropped it...and stood there. Then she looked right at me. It was the scariest thing I've ever seen...

Once again...I will never understand these people.


how does that fit in this thread?

[earthman buck]

it kind of all fits in in a weird way
^^^^^^^^^

:)

[tehplatypus]

again, how does it fit. i'm not seeing it....and i'm pretty good at connecting stuff.

as it is, the whole satanism thing was getting off topic.

[R. Shackleferd]

Us...get off topic? Naah.
Perhaps his first instinct to make a new thread was more on target, but I'm guessing the similarity is on the irrational behaviors of others that we just can't...well, rationalize, like getting "coked" out of your mind, and the literal craziness that results. And if I can make a link between the Rebel flag and Islamic radicals, admittedly a stretch, then he can't be asking too much more to slip that in. :)

[tehplatypus]

i'm sorry if i came off as strict about the topic....the other boards i'm on, the topic rarely stays on track....i just more wanted to know how the hell it was connected....i was curious.

[R. Shackleferd]

It's all good dude.
It did take me some deeper pondering to make that connection myself, which I prolly just glossed over until you raised it. That's assuming I was correct in the "weird way" it fits in. And yeah, we usually need a reminder to stay on topic.

So for that purpose, I have noticed how the "creationists" will loosely throw around scientific terms to give credit to their ideas. Such as calling it a theory, which by definition has already progressed from hypothesis by being observed, tested/experimented, and repeated. But I guess creation hypothesis doesn't have the same ring to it. Actually, I guess they've abandoned that term completely now, and adopted "intelligent design". But they'll still stick on theory at the end sometimes too.

[tehplatypus]

well the only real evidence i ever see is an absence of evidence.


the absence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence....suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

Heres something humorous.

"NO ONE can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him" (John 6:44)

The greek for "draw" means "drag".

so am I choosing or am I being chosen?So much for "free will".


As far as physical evidence,its futile to look for physical evidence of a spiritual being.Throughout the bible God says to pretty much take a look around for yourself and see his WORK of the cosmos(universe) to confirm his existence.

As for faith....death is too "big" for me...I can't do that alone..its a dark bottomless pit that all living things fall towards from birth...heres hoping that there is a net(God).

theres a verse that faith the size of mustard seed can move a mountain....bible or not,I find that infinitley inspiring.

If there is nothing beyond,then all the magnificence of our universe is a shallow spill.


I actually write all this in sorrow and repentance to some extent.Having sex with girls I don't "really love" has been weighing on my heat in the last few months.Not sure why.I get lonley and want affection.Ive been with 13-14 girls(i'm 21) and I consider it a dirty shame.

Am I a dirty person for this?My conscience beats me like an angry father.Very odd.My stomach literally hurts with shame and its sits like an albatross over my head.

[earthman buck]

This is for whoever it was that said they believed in every word of the Bible (I think it was ericthecableguy, but I can't be sure). I don't mean to insult your beliefs, and please forgive me if it seems like I'm doing that, but I have found some Bible verses I find to be hilarious, and I want to know what you think about them.

Leviticus 12:2-5
Leviticus 19:27-28
Deuteronomy 14:3-6
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Deuteronomy 22:5
Deuteronomy 23:1

And my personal favourite:
Deuteronomy 25:5-10

I'm really not trying to piss anyone off here, I just found all of these to be utterly strange and ridiculous.

[ericthecableguy]

This is for whoever it was that said they believed in every word of the Bible (I think it was ericthecableguy, but I can't be sure). I don't mean to insult your beliefs, and please forgive me if it seems like I'm doing that, but I have found some Bible verses I find to be hilarious, and I want to know what you think about them.

Leviticus 12:2-5
Leviticus 19:27-28
Deuteronomy 14:3-6
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Deuteronomy 22:5
Deuteronomy 23:1

And my personal favourite:
Deuteronomy 25:5-10

I'm really not trying to piss anyone off here, I just found all of these to be utterly strange and ridiculous.

Ya, I get how they sound funny, but these rules were for early pre-Jesus Jews. Ya they are funny now, but were obviously for a reason.
Kudo's to you for finding those verses. I haven't cracked the book in a long time. :o

[hunter60]

Ya, I get how they sound funny, but these rules were for early pre-Jesus Jews. Ya they are funny now, but were obviously for a reason.
Kudo's to you for finding those verses. I haven't cracked the book in a long time. :o

Yeah, there's a lot of things in the bible that read funny now. But Eric is right. These were laws and such for the Old Testament. Jesus' life, death and resurrection supercedes those laws...with the noted exception of the Ten Commandments. Jesus even instructs several people to continue to obey the Big Ten (the commandments, not the College Football Conference...).

And although this thought has not popped up in this thread, I believe that there is plenty of evidence that God has a sense of humor. Just look at my social life.... :)

[Raskolnikov]

Before I respond to anything here, let me say a couple of things up front:

1. I am not an atheist; I subscribe to no specific religion, but I recognize within myself a deep seated need to have a spiritual component in my life. Subsequently, I believe that our individual religious convictions are amongst the most precious of possession we carry with us.

2. Anything that I say here that sounds in any way disrespectful or condescending is not intended that way. I say this because I'm delving into an issue which people get awful sensitive about and it can be tough to put things "tenderly" enough.


I recently just started reading into the bible because I needed to find out for myself what it is that I beleive..

I too was beleiving that Evolution was based on Science, well its what they taught me in school. But Evolution is just a theory. I'm not sure if it was just my school, but I was led to beleive that this was actually proven, when in fact it was not. Just Theories..
I blame the schools for comments like this; the word "theory" means one thing to we, 'the masses' and something entirely different to Scientists.

In Science, "Theory" means that an idea or a set of ideas explains all the facts in evidence and has withstood even the most extensive testing. The word scientists use for what most of us call "theory" is "Hypothesis."

If we are to disown Evolution as being "only" a theory, then we need to throw the heliocentric model of the solar system* right in the trash because that's a theory, too and there's A LOT less evidence for it than there is for Evolution; it is merely a simpler model for the solar system than the old one of epicycles and whatnot.

*And gravitation. And optics. And Relativity. And thermodynamics...


Evolution in my opinion is a religion.. Because you have to have some sort of faith that the world began that way in order to beleive it.

I recently saw some seminars by Dr. Kent Hovind.. Although this guy can be a bit hard to take, he made some very valid points and discoveries with regards to creation. It definately opened my eyes to the "possibilities". I'm still digging further into it for myself. Dr. Kent Hovind (http://www.drdino.com/)
While (unlike Answers in Genesis) this guy seems to have found his spell check, he still fails to escape my typical categorization of Creation Scientists – "hacks, quacks and scammers."

I read two of his articles; in one all he did was disagree with everything Scientific American had to say in an editorial without ONCE providing supporting evidence for ANY of his rebuttals. In the other, he seamlessly goes from claiming in one paragraph that Carbon-14 is created in the atmosphere and then decays at constant rates and that based on this, the world *has* to be less than 30,000 years old to saying that Radiocarbon dates can't be trusted because there's no proof that Carbon-14 is generated OR decays at a constant rate.

I'm sure this cat is a great talker (Evangelists usually are), but his facts are about as straight as Vermont Route 110 and his arguments are airtight as a colander.


Of course, herein lies the problem; this guy and his opinions are easily accessible conform to what most Christians want to hear; the case and evidence for Evolution, however, is in technical language and fly directly in the face of Judeo-Christian dogma (I don't think Evolution and Christianity necessarily have to be incompatible). Few have the patience of tenacity to wade into it (and that includes most of those who populate our educational institutions).




Exactly what I meant. How do you figure he could have condoned it when he orders people not to kill eachother?
The Bible says not to commit murder- that doesn't mean "never ever kill anybody for any reason."

[ericthecableguy]

The Bible says not to commit murder- that doesn't mean "never ever kill anybody for any reason."

Touché. I don't believe for one second though, that God condoned that kind of killing.

[earthman buck]

Touché. I don't believe for one second though, that God condoned that kind of killing.
What kind of killing? Because there's a lot of Old Testament stuff in which God specifically commands Israelites to kill certain people under certain circumstances.

I.E., if you have a rebellious son, stone him to death. If that doesn't seem like overreacting to you, then I don't know what does.


Oh, and about those Bible passages I listed, I know they're outdated, and that's exactly my point. I can understand a lot of the Bible laws from the Old Testament, like the ones about what you can and can't eat, and how to deal with handling dead things and whatnot. I see it purely as a matter of health. This was a very disease-ridden time. I also think that's how the "don't sleep with people you're not married to" stuff came about. It was just a matter of keeping disease fairly neutralized. Nowadays, medicine is advanced, so it's not as big of a deal as it was then. In my opinion, anyway. I'm sure someone will disagree with me.

[Krunek]

What kind of killing? Because there's a lot of Old Testament stuff in which God specifically commands Israelites to kill certain people under certain circumstances.

I.E., if you have a rebellious son, stone him to death. If that doesn't seem like overreacting to you, then I don't know what does.


Oh, and about those Bible passages I listed, I know they're outdated, and that's exactly my point. I can understand a lot of the Bible laws from the Old Testament, like the ones about what you can and can't eat, and how to deal with handling dead things and whatnot. I see it purely as a matter of health. This was a very disease-ridden time. I also think that's how the "don't sleep with people you're not married to" stuff came about. It was just a matter of keeping disease fairly neutralized. Nowadays, medicine is advanced, so it's not as big of a deal as it was then. In my opinion, anyway. I'm sure someone will disagree with me.

Well, try sleeping with someone else"s wife in Saudi Arabia or somewhere there... They still stone people there. And cut hands... And other organs...
Huh, it gives me the shiwers. Uh, bad. As for bible... hm, as far as I have undestood it, it doesn"t say don"t sleep with someone you are not married to.
It says; don"t sleep with someone who is married to someone else. Or am I wrong? Think not. I think it says that. Correct me if I am wrong here. :)

[magicninja]

Ok guys I'm gonna lay it out for you.

I do not believe in any God that man has created. I think the God's and religion man has created came out of necessity for order. That's fine and it still applies today and quite frankly we could use more people who live thier life by the Bible. I respect people who live by the teachings of the Bible. The hardline people who take the Bible as pure truth however I just don't get. I hear alot of you posting about if there is no God what is the meaning of life? Well it's simple and if you have kids someday you will know the purpose of life. Continuation of the species. Now, being a species of moderate intelligence we should as a civilization be able to mold our path. Right now we are in turmoil. Everybody wants something different. I personally would enjoy a world government geared toward feeding everyone and making sure everyone is helping towards a common goal. I think that common goal should be space travel to other planets. If we stay here and destroy ourselves then there was no point our civilization. It kinda takes the wind out of the sails of religious text when not one mentions traveling to space. Does God expect us just to stay here? I would think not. Our destiny is our own. Collectively as a people if we don't work together in common goals as human beings we are all doomed. Whether it be trying to all work together to eradicate hunger or Aids or whatever else. Money is always a problem it seems. What no one seems to understand is that money is an illusion. If it were not for money and religion I think the sky would be the limit for our race. We are too greedy in that we only care about what is best for our country, our town, our family. We don't care what is best for the human race as a whole. This my friends will be our downfall. The rich don't want a change. The poor really don't have a say in anything.The middle class well we're just living and that seems to be ok with everyone. I'm embarrassed for the people of Earth. We go around all self important when we don't realize one way or another nothing we do will matter. The only things that will matter is either when we get to the point where we nuke ourselves back to the stoneage or a leader arises that can talk some sense into the power hungry idiots who keep us working to half our potential. That will be the turning point in our evolution. Until then we can all sit around and talk about how pointless life seems.
I was hoping more people would read and comment on this rant of mine. I already know Tristan and I are on the same wavelength. :cool: Seems you guys were too busy goin' on about Satanism to notice my post so I thought I'd try again. Don't be mad. I'm just trying to leave the world in better shape than when I found it.

[ren]

Hey Marcos... I think you talk a lot of sense... :cool:

The ego of the individual does have much to answer for - why is nothing being done about our reliance on fossil fuel? Because powerful people make much money from it, and are not interested in change - just one example of a very fair point... those with power/money don't want any change to the status quo (no, not the band!) as it isn't in their own interests.

It's sad that few people think like you. And as for the bible being 'Pure Truth'.... it's no more or less 'true' than The Da Vinci Code... (Stands back) Who wrote it? How do we know they are right? It may have meant more in the context of the day, but means far less now to most as far as I know. No one ever tries to prove it, saying that faith requires no proof. OK, don't expect anyone else to pay it any heed without proof.

To prove the point about religion in context, do you guys know that 'Jedi' is a recognised religion in the UK? At the last census, an email campaign started asking for people of no fixed religion to say they were Jedi. To be listed as a recognised religion in the UK, a percentage of the population need to be members. Jedi made it.

All we need to do is build some temples and work on the light sabres...

[Superhuman]

I was hoping more people would read and comment on this rant of mine. I already know Tristan and I are on the same wavelength. :cool: Seems you guys were too busy goin' on about Satanism to notice my post so I thought I'd try again. Don't be mad. I'm just trying to leave the world in better shape than when I found it.

Just read your rant and it is exactly the way I see things too. THe meaning of life changes when you have kids... propogation of the species and protection of your own family is what it's all about. As far as goals for mankind go, space exploration and terra forming of other planets should be right up there but of course, mankind will end up waiting until it's too late to do anything of any benefit. It's more than 35 years now since man walked on the moon and seems to be a case of "been there done that"...

As far as creation science goes... how come we can see the light from stars? If the earth is only 30,000 years old then the sky would be mostly black. It has taken billions of light years for the light of earth's visible stars to arrive at our part of 'this' galaxy. Billions of light years = billions of years.
One thing worth bearing in mind in the evolution vs creation argument is the fact that science takes nothing for granted that is not already proven prior to construciton of a theory. There are abstract theories out there re black holes etc, these cannot be proven in the real work however they draw on solid scientific theories and principals. Creationists assume that the bible is the truth and then create arguments and 'theories' to prove these assumptions. Straight away that is a flawed way of thinking.

Not meant to offend anyone, I just have an interest in the evolution debate. I can't for the life of me understand how creationism has now been brought into school teaching in some of the US states! :eek:

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

The "6000 year old earth" idea is simply mans compilation of geneaologies in the bible.Its shaky and obviously does not hold up to the evidence that surrounds us(carbon dating,dinosuar bones and our extremely strange universe in which our planet is like a plankton in the atlantic).

I honestly believe the bible,but its interpretation/translation by fundamentalist scholars is so innapropriate that anyone with a 5th grade reading level can tear it apart.You only have to look at the baptists(and many other "christian" churches)take on the story of "the rich man and lazarus" to see how numb some people are.

The bible is the most solid piece of literature that ive read.It is the most ridiculous piece of literature that ive heard.


There is always talk of "God in the old testament was an ass e.c.t" and understandably,it seems very chaotic/ungodly...this is something ive yet to delve into deeply.Ive always focused on the most heineous of teaching...eternal punishment.Truly the most sadistic belief out there.It topples the holocaust,911 or any tradgety that man has endured if it is to be true(which it most certainly is not....biblically anyway).

So many "level headed" people believe in hell...i'm sure most have never even been burned or thought about such lengthy torture before.I'm positive that they would bring it into question if they could experience their belief for a couple minutes.

[force_of_shred]

simply it is that people who question religion are the same people who will never be satisfied with any answers they will recieve. they will proclaim that science is their "God" but one thing these people don't realize that science is not as exact or as reliable as it is made out to be in the media. Science keeps changing, discoveries come along that cancel out the previous conclusion, we hear new discoveries all the time that "prove" that they were wrong about somthing they had studied years ago.With so much evolving of what the science community is telling us it's hard to believe that there are people who put their faith there.If you ask me, when not being taken analy and through literal cult-like interpretataons religion can be undersdtood to highest degree a person can understand. ANYONE who thinks science is exact or dependable when it comes to deciding what they should believe is just kidding themselves. Religion is Exact to some people, but you have to look past some of these oddeties and see the base principle as you should with science.

:Also why in school do you have to defend either Creationism Or Evolution, I think its obvious that question is WAY to black and white. Don't crumble into this trap of a question.


I believe in "Helped" evolution which i think makes the most sense considering when you take religion and science in and give both your skepticism they both point to the same conclution that is mine. :cool:

[PonyOne]

simply it is that people who question religion are the same people who will never be satisfied with any answers they will recieve. they will proclaim that science is their "God" but one thing these people don't realize that science is not as exact or as reliable as it is made out to be in the media.
Actually, I don't have a god. If science was my god then I would be religious. I know of no one personally who believes that science knows all and sees all and holds the answers to absolutely everything... I'm positive they exist but that is not a good indicator of what someone who subscribes to scientific beliefs is like.

Science keeps changing, discoveries come along that cancel out the previous conclusion, we hear new discoveries all the time that "prove" that they were wrong about somthing they had studied years ago.
Reality is not linear. Things change, exponentially, through our day to day lives, through the generations... people agonize over how to poperly interpret a text written thousands of years ago and make it relevant to today's events; I fail to see the point in this... take the books as proverbs, as ancient wisdom that holds true to how to treat one another if you want to but that book isn't changing. The world is. Things we took as fact fifty, a hundred, two hundred, three hundred years ago that we now look back on as incorrect, if not well-intentioned, are just an example of human progression. Maybe this is why I'm drawn towards science; the endless pursuit of things, the fact that one door opens to many more... as opposed to the notion that these are just the way things are and that's it.

With so much evolving of what the science community is telling us it's hard to believe that there are people who put their faith there.If you ask me, when not being taken analy and through literal cult-like interpretataons religion can be undersdtood to highest degree a person can understand.
How so? I'm not baiting or calling you out, I'm just curious.

ANYONE who thinks science is exact or dependable when it comes to deciding what they should believe is just kidding themselves. Religion is Exact to some people, but you have to look past some of these oddeties and see the base principle as you should with science.
So belief in science is defunct based on its past foibles, but we should look past the outdated and incorrect things in religions?

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

but we should look past the outdated and incorrect things in religions?

Thats a fantastic thing not many understand.Yes we infact should do just that.

Thats something many believers(of many churches)don't grasp.The bible does speak of not following the "traditions of man"...lighting candels,going to church on sunday(or saturday),celebrating easter,christmas,prayer repetition litergy,ritualism,confession,communion e.c.t.

Most would gouge their eyes out before letting go of the traditions(many not even worded in the bible and some ridiculous)that have been ingrained in the institutionalized churches of the world.THAT is their religion.

Its just as reasonable to attempt to prove scripture true through science.

[PonyOne]

By all means, try to find parallels in science and the bible... but again, for me not really believing in scriptures, it doesn't do much. I'd rather concern myself with other things. It's like someone whose reputation as a liar proceeds them, asking you to trust them that they aren't lying.

I guess that I just don't see why it is that we shouldn't overlook the past mistakes and current irrelevancies of sciences, and overlook the past mistakes and irrelevancies of religion... I don't like double standards.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

I was just pointing out that religion in the grand picture is a tangled ball of elastic bands(false traditions e.c.t)...through a bit of study,they begin to unravel.

Science is a progressive method of understanding.Establishing and re-establishing "fact" is an occurance of any science.Science is the study of function/s and is in constant motion.

Texts of faith arn't motionless either...they have gone through revisions,multiple langauges and alterior motives.

Theres no double standard here.Fallacies in both science,its extremeties and religious texts need to be recognized.


Believing a written word of any kind takes some faith.

[magicninja]

Well the way I see it humans by nature are flawed, by extension our ideas about science and religion and philosophy may also be flawed.