Virgin Tube buyer needs suggestions

[blueradish]

Hi all,

Been hovering around for a couple years now on the forums, just reading things of interest. I'm at a point now where I'm going to be stepping up to some new gear. I'm a tube amp virgin, hence, need some input.

I'm currently using a 15watt SS Hiwatt mini stack which has been perfect for personal jamming in my basement. I am aware of the beauty of tube amp sound and have noodled on a few in guitar stores, but never owned one. A couple friends came over with 30watt tubes and they blew me away as well as my Hiwatt. In fact my Hiwatt became quite useless next to theirs. I would now like to turn my Hiwatt into a piece of furniture and purchase a tube amp.

I am looking for a tube amp (head, not combo)somewhere between 15 and 30 watts, it's just for basement jamming, but will be taken to larger jam sessions with drums and vocals. I prefer something in the boutique department. Although I play allot of heavier stuff I prefer to have an amp geared to a pure clean tone. I find it easier to make a clean sound dirty than visa versa.

I realize this may be a loaded question, but I am looking for opinions on which of these would best fit my criteria. I don't have the luxury of a large city where I can test these amps.

I've narrowed it down to...

Orange AC30
THD UniValve
H&K Puretone
Speedster 25 Deluxe
Budda Superdrive II 18w
Zinky 25w Blue Velvet

Appreciate any comments.

Thanks

[Lordathestrings]

The AC30 is a VOX amp. And its forte is the wonderful gind it gets when those EL84's are overdriven into sweet distortion.

A merely OK clean machine.

[Mark Pav]

That's a short list of some very nice amps there. I'm a big H&K fan and would probably go with that (or a Vox), though I'd like to test out a Zinky. If you can try them out and make your own decision that would be best. With a list like that you can't really go wrong.

[Andrew Sa]

I like the Puretone quite a bit...but if you are looking to spend that sort of money, you cant do it without looking at what Koch and Bad Cat amps have to offer...sound like they could be exactly what you want

[PRSplaya]

I'm not one to veer someone away from this forum, but >The Gear Pages< (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/) forum is an excelent place to find out about a lot of boutique equipment. A lot of the amp and guitar builders actually post on the forum aswell. Good luck, and keep us posted!

[Lordathestrings]

Have you looked at the >Mojave Ampworks (http://www.mojaveampworks.com/)< Scorpion?

[blueradish]

Have you looked at the >Mojave Ampworks (http://www.mojaveampworks.com/)< Scorpion?

Hmmmm, looks like an interesting amp although 50watts if I read correctly. Might be a little loud for the house.

I think I've eliminated the Orange as it British crunch sound isn't quite what I'm looking for. I'd really like an amp geared to the pure clean sound as that is what I play for the most part. I have a Mesa V-Twin Preamp pedal to take care of the Overdrive, etc.

[Lordathestrings]

Hmmmm, looks like an interesting amp although 50watts if I read correctly. Might be a little loud for the house...

The reason I suggested the Scorpion is that the output is adjustable from 3 to 50 Watts. Did you not read the description? Take another look, and pay attention to the part about the Power Dampening feature.

[PRSplaya]

50 watts into a 1x12 or 2x12 cabinet would give you plenty of clean headroom, and if you need to push it harder, but without the volume, you can always get an attenuator, like a THD Hotplate.

My amps are all in the 50-60 watt range, and I have no problems getting great tone at "basement jamming" levels.

The speaker you use will also play a big roll in how loud, and how hard you can push the amp.

[PRSplaya]

Damn you Lats! I want a Scorpion now! :mad:

[Lordathestrings]

Damn you Lats! I want a Scorpion now! :mad:

:D Heeheeheeheeheeee :D

Say "Hi!" to Vic for me.

[PRSplaya]

I loved how harmonicaly rich it sounded in the soundclips. That's what I love about my 5150 and RM. The notes just seem to jump off the fretboard.

[blueradish]

Did you not read the description?

I did read it. However as a "Virgin" I had trouble understanding how an amp could be adjustable. In fact in all my rookie travels for a tube I don't know that I've seen another amp with that feature.

I'll read up on it a bit more.

The speaker you use will also play a big roll in how loud, and how hard you can push the amp.

What do you suggest for a nice 1 or 2x12 with good volume, sound and clarity in a closed back.

[PRSplaya]

I use an Eminence Wizard in my Valveking, and it sounds great. It lets all the tone come through, without hyping any frequencies too much. However, it is a 75 watt speaker, and is rated at 103db. So, this is not a good combination if you want to keep things quiet. However, this can be a good thing, if clean headroom is what you're after.

[Lordathestrings]

The early attempts at getting adjustable output were amps equipped with a Master Volume control. A lot of them sucked out all of the tone at lower volumes. Later designs use variations on the power-scaling concept, which reduces the voltages applied to the power tubes. This reduces the power they put out, and has the added benefit of making the tubes last longer. Vic swears that his Power Dampening uses a different technique, but really, who cares? If it sounds good, it is good.

For speakers, I recommend getting an >Avatar (http://www.avatarspeakers.com/)< cab. Since you want speakers that sound good at any level, I suggest >Weber (http://www.tedweber.com/)< California with ceramic magnets and the paper voice-coil dome. Most guitar speakers have a 'sweet spot' combination of EQ and volume that makes them sound good. With adjustable output, you want to use realtively uncoloured speakers with a flat frequency response. Altec 417's are also good for this, if you can find them.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any combo amps that have sealed-back cabs. Other than my own rebuilt Ampeg >VT-40 (http://www.vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?t=23522&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30)< that I salvaged from a flood-damaged junker. Notice the Weber ceramic California 15" speaker.

[sgregg]

Is the Scorpion the only tube amp with adjustable output? Do other brands do this as well?

[Lordathestrings]

I think the Power Dampening feature is now available as an option of all of the Mojave product line, including the 100 Watt Peacemaker.

Any amp with a Master Volume control reduces the output; its just a different technique.

I think at least one of the Mesa amps has a built-in Variac to reduce the voltages on the power tubes. Note that this is set up in a way that maintains the full voltage to the tube heater filaments. Simply plugging a tube amp into a variac and rolling back the line voltage can trash every tube in the amp!

[Andrew Sa]

yeah, Mesa make some amps with that feature, but not quite to the same extent...Their Stilletto Duece is reducable from 100 to 50 watts, and the trident from 150 to 50 (or maybe to 100?) but both amps will still be way too loud for home use at 50 watts...pretty sure they have a master volume though.

I think they also make a 50watt Lonestar that is reducible from 50 to 30 watts ( i think...not certain)

[Allroy]

I'm looking for my first tube amp. I would like it to be in the $400-$900 range. I play metal, punk, classic rock, and blues. This amp will be used to play in my apartment. I thought maybe a B-52, but it is 100Watts(head) or 150Watts(2x12 combo). That would be way too loud for an apartment. Any ideas?

EDIT: Could I play the amp at a low volume and use a pedal for distortion? If that is a stupid question it is because I know nothing about tube amps. Also, I loved the sound clips from that Scorpion but I did not love the price. :eek:

[Lordathestrings]

... I loved the sound clips from that Scorpion but I did not love the price. :eek:

Yeah, looking at boutique gear can give a fella some bad sticker-shock.

Any amp can be turned down, but the thing that makes a tube amp worth owning is the way it sounds when you turn it way up.

Some amps (I think Seymor Duncan is one brand) have a triode/pentode switch that changes the screen grid connection, dropping the power by 1/2 or more.

[magicninja]

Some amps (I think Seymor Duncan is one brand) have a triode/pentode switch that changes the screen grid connection, dropping the power by 1/2 or more.
I know for sure that some of the Gibson models have this feature.

[blueradish]

I'm looking for my first tube amp. I would like it to be in the $400-$900 range. I play metal, punk, classic rock, and blues. This amp will be used to play in my apartment. I thought maybe a B-52, but it is 100Watts(head) or 150Watts(2x12 combo). That would be way too loud for an apartment. Any ideas?

EDIT: Could I play the amp at a low volume and use a pedal for distortion? If that is a stupid question it is because I know nothing about tube amps. Also, I loved the sound clips from that Scorpion but I did not love the price. :eek:

In my travels I've found that a 30watt 1x12 combo can only be turned up to about 4 in my house before things fall of shelves. As mentioned in other posts this can be solved with a Marshall Power Brake or a Hot Plate Power Attenuator.

Precisely why I've decided that a 15 or 18 watt will do fine for my basement. I think that out of all the amps I listed in the first post of this thread, the THD Univalve (http://www.thdelectronics.com/products/univalve.htm) is the one for me. That way I have the ablility to crank it getting the full benefit of a tube amp. The beautiful thing about this amp is that it has a built in Hot Plate Power Attenuator. Hence, I could probably step to a 30 watt. The THD Uni can be found on eBay for around $500 or at online stores for around $950.

In your case you may need to be a little more careful due to the close proximity of your neighbors.

[Allroy]

I went to the website of THD and it sounds perfect. What kind of cab do you use? I was thinking of the Avatar that Lord of the Rings recommended.

EDIT: Would 15Watts be enough if you were going to play in a bar or with friends in the basement?

[blueradish]

I went to the website of THD and it sounds perfect. What kind of cab do you use? I was thinking of the Avatar that Lord of the Rings recommended.

EDIT: Would 15Watts be enough if you were going to play in a bar or with friends in the basement?

I haven't quite got to the cabinet stage yet. Just been researching the heads.

I don't think a 15 would cut it in a bar, depending on the size. There may be some more experienced giggers out here that could answer that. As for the basement, the 30watt combo at 4 was set perfect to jam in my basement with vocals and drums.

With all the talk of getting the most of a tube by cranking it, I'd rather have a 15 or 18 cranked to 7 or 8 than a 30 at 4. However, I will never need my amp for gigs.

[Lordathestrings]

... I'd rather have a 15 or 18 cranked to 7 or 8 than a 30 at 4. ...

Ah, the light comes on... :cool:




This is why so many people have put so much time and effort into finding a way to adjust the output of a tube amp without losing that tone. So far, all of the techniques being used appear to have some trade-offs.

Most of the classic Master Volume circuits simply reduce the level of the preamp signal that reaches the power amp. This is OK if your distortion tone originates in a stompbox, or in the preamp. If you crave the sound of raging power tubes, MV amps don't make it.

Attenuators like the Hot Plate, Power Brake, and the MASS all take the full output of the amp, dissipate most of it internally, and pass the remainder to the speaker(s). This allows you to crank up the amp to where the power tubes are singing, but that reduced signal doesn't push the speakers as hard, and some speakers need to be driven at a certain level in order to hit that 'sweet spot' where they sound best. All attenuators affect the tone, and you also lose that interraction between the amp and the speaker. Acoustic feedback? Fugedabowdit! And because the power tubes are still being driven hard, they wear out fast.

Power Scaling has some distinct advantages over MV or attenuator setups, but it isn't perfect either. By reducing all of the voltages applied to the tubes, the life expectancy is greatly extended. There is some effect on the tone, but its certainly no worse than attenuators. There's still the issues of 'sweet spot' speakers and the reduced feedback sustain, but the amp does interract with the speaker.

A technique sometimes used in studios is to install a speaker inside a completely sealed cabinet lined with sound absorbent material. A microphone is also installed in the cab, which allows the sound of the speaker to be recorded without having to deal with high SPL in the room. The sound is not very natural. There's no room ambience, or interraction between the speaker and guitar.

The trend is definitely towards smaller amps, with a mic and/or a DI feed to the PA system. But not every club has a decent PA, and I know a lot of guys who insist on keeping their 100 Watt monster amps. Hell, I ain't selling my VT-22, even if I don't have anywhere I can really crank it up.

Ya pays yer money, an ya makes yer choices.

[Allroy]

Is a 4x12 louder than a 2x12 cabinet or just larger sounding(richer)?

[Lordathestrings]

I think its time you learned how to use the Search button at the top of the page. We've had a lot of disussion on this, and I'm not going to type it out again.

[Allroy]

Does anyone with a non condescending attitude know? :confused: If I knew what to search for I would not be asking.

[PRSplaya]

do a search for "2x12", "4x12", "cabinet", "speakers", etc...

LATS wasn't being condescending to you. He was actually trying to be helpful. We have had a lot of discussion on topics such as that, so it would be beneficial to you, if you used the search function of the forum to search for these threads.

[Allroy]

I did search first and I didn't see what I was looking for.

I think its time you learned how to use the Search button at the top of the page. We've had a lot of disussion on this, and I'm not going to type it out again.

If he was trying to be helpful, he would have said something like "do a search for x because this has been written about a lot". Instead, condescension and sarcasm were used. I have no patience for people like that. They end up discouraging people new to something from asking for advice.

[PRSplaya]

I found these by doing a search for "4x12"

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19794&highlight=4x12

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18207&highlight=4x12

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13862&highlight=4x12

http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8374&highlight=4x12

That's just in this forum, do a search in the Tech Talk section as well, if you still don't find what you're looking for. It really is that easy. Nobody's trying to discourage new members from asking advice. We just try to encourage all members to use the search feature first, and then ask questions later. This keeps members who have been here a while from having to keep repeating themselfs over and over again.

[blueradish]

Ah, the light comes on... :cool:




This is why so many people have put so much time and effort into finding a way to adjust the output of a tube amp without losing that tone. So far, all of the techniques being used appear to have some trade-offs.

Most of the classic Master Volume circuits simply reduce the level of the preamp signal that reaches the power amp. This is OK if your distortion tone originates in a stompbox, or in the preamp. If you crave the sound of raging power tubes, MV amps don't make it.

Attenuators like the Hot Plate, Power Brake, and the MASS all take the full output of the amp, dissipate most of it internally, and pass the remainder to the speaker(s). This allows you to crank up the amp to where the power tubes are singing, but that reduced signal doesn't push the speakers as hard, and some speakers need to be driven at a certain level in order to hit that 'sweet spot' where they sound best. All attenuators affect the tone, and you also lose that interraction between the amp and the speaker. Acoustic feedback? Fugedabowdit! And because the power tubes are still being driven hard, they wear out fast.

Power Scaling has some distinct advantages over MV or attenuator setups, but it isn't perfect either. By reducing all of the voltages applied to the tubes, the life expectancy is greatly extended. There is some effect on the tone, but its certainly no worse than attenuators. There's still the issues of 'sweet spot' speakers and the reduced feedback sustain, but the amp does interract with the speaker.

A technique sometimes used in studios is to install a speaker inside a completely sealed cabinet lined with sound absorbent material. A microphone is also installed in the cab, which allows the sound of the speaker to be recorded without having to deal with high SPL in the room. The sound is not very natural. There's no room ambience, or interraction between the speaker and guitar.

The trend is definitely towards smaller amps, with a mic and/or a DI feed to the PA system. But not every club has a decent PA, and I know a lot of guys who insist on keeping their 100 Watt monster amps. Hell, I ain't selling my VT-22, even if I don't have anywhere I can really crank it up.

Ya pays yer money, an ya makes yer choices.

Thanks LOTS, wealth of knowledge.

[Allroy]

Thanks for the help PRSplaya.