Should he live? Should he die?

[tehplatypus]

okay, i'm sure there's a few people that know what i'm talking about. if not, you can the article provided to get a hint of what this is about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4486178.stm



i think that his later works of good deeds are of enough weight to warrant a reprieve of his death sentence and just make it life in prison. don't let him go free...but allow him to continue to do good....and if he stops once the death penalty is taken off....fry his ass for being decietful. seems fair enough...

[magicninja]

If he id really doing that much good then yes he should live out his days in prison. I've seen Redemption btw good movie.

[Jolly McJollyson]

While one could argue that he's saved many lives by changing so drastically, I believe that, without bringing his victims back to life, there are some crimes that cannot be undone.

[tehplatypus]

While one could argue that he's saved many lives by changing so drastically, I believe that, without bringing his victims back to life, there are some crimes that cannot be undone.

by that same token, though, if he's now doing good works for society and effecting a change for the positive....would that not be worth keeping his life instead of executing him while other scum who just lay about remain in jail for equally harsh crimes.

i'm not saying that he should ever be let free or that anything can make up for the lives he's taken away*, but i am saying that it would seem that it'd be to the detriment of society for him to be executed at this point.


*there's actually disputes that his court case was even fair but that's another discussion for another day

[stackny]

IMO, anybody who is truly sorry for their crimes are willing to pay the punishment theyve got coming to em. Eye for an eye.

[3rd_degreeburn]

death..eye for an eye in my book..I don't care how much good he has done, its the fact that he killed 4 people and I don't believe he should live...many will disagree but they will get over it...yes there is forgiveness, but I dont believe the good of writing childrens books over weighs the DEAD 4 innocent people...this is just my opinion

[tehplatypus]

IMO, anybody who is truly sorry for their crimes are willing to pay the punishment theyve got coming to em. Eye for an eye.

interesting. you have every right to hold that opinion but can you explain your through process with it some? are you coming from more thinking like "well if this guy gets off, everyone else will try to get off." or just purely and simply revenge?


the reason why i ask is because i'm trying to understand your reasoning because i can't help but see it as anything but wasteful to kill him off when him spending his life in prison would give him the same penalty and allow him time to do more good works for society. maybe that's a naievity (i know i spelled this wrong, someone help me out here) about me...but i did say if he ended up just doing that for the pity vote on him, i say fry him. afterall, it'd become pretty obvious if it was just a front.*shrugs* that's just me and i know that's just you...just trying to get a little more out of it if there is more to it. if not, i'll just let it be.


edit: i just saw 3rd degree said something along the same lines and he's welcome to reply to this too if he wants.

[magicninja]

If you really want help with grammer it should be: maybe that's just being naive, but I did say... :D

[stackny]

interesting. you have every right to hold that opinion but can you explain your through process with it some? are you coming from more thinking like "well if this guy gets off, everyone else will try to get off." or just purely and simply revenge?


the reason why i ask is because i'm trying to understand your reasoning because i can't help but see it as anything but wasteful to kill him off when him spending his life in prison would give him the same penalty and allow him time to do more good works for society. maybe that's a naievity (i know i spelled this wrong, someone help me out here) about me...but i did say if he ended up just doing that for the pity vote on him, i say fry him. afterall, it'd become pretty obvious if it was just a front.*shrugs* that's just me and i know that's just you...just trying to get a little more out of it if there is more to it. if not, i'll just let it be.


edit: i just saw 3rd degree said something along the same lines and he's welcome to reply to this too if he wants.

Basically, my thought process is if someone is truly sorry for commiting an action, they will be prepared to pay the price. Why would you beg for life if youve taken that right from 4 other people? Why should mercy be had on you? Thats my whole deal: youve taken the right from someone else, why should you deserve it, regardless of how much youve changed your lifestyle?

[tehplatypus]

Basically, my thought process is if someone is truly sorry for commiting an action, they will be prepared to pay the price. Why would you beg for life if youve taken that right from 4 other people? Why should mercy be had on you? Thats my whole deal: youve taken the right from someone else, why should you deserve it, regardless of how much youve changed your lifestyle?


alrighty. i'm not sure if he's begging for his life or not...from what i've read about it so far, it seems more that everyone is pushing it to where it currently is...along with those activists who are against the death penalty. i'm not one of those, by the way. i very much believe in the death penalty but i see extenuating circumstances in this one case where it might not be the wisest course of action.

you are very on point, though that when he killed those people he did give up his right to live.

personally, though, i think they should execute charles manson before this guy. but that's life for ya...a guy actually realizes his mistakes and tries to save lives is put to death while a psychotic murderous lunatic is kept alive and even has parole hearings.

[stackny]

alrighty. i'm not sure if he's begging for his life or not...from what i've read about it so far, it seems more that everyone is pushing it to where it currently is...along with those activists who are against the death penalty. i'm not one of those, by the way. i very much believe in the death penalty but i see extenuating circumstances in this one case where it might not be the wisest course of action.

you are very on point, though that when he killed those people he did give up his right to live.

personally, though, i think they should execute charles manson before this guy. but that's life for ya...a guy actually realizes his mistakes and tries to save lives is put to death while a psychotic murderous lunatic is kept alive and even has parole hearings.

No kidding. Charles Manson is a twisted son of a beach.

[tehplatypus]

No kidding. Charles Manson is a twisted son of a beach.

have you ever heard about his parole hearings? they basically go like this.


::hi charles how have you been?

::fine, thank you.

::now what would be the first thing you did if you got out of prison?

::i'd kill every one of you and your families.


and that's pretty much exactly how they all go...no hyperbole.

[stackny]

have you ever heard about his parole hearings? they basically go like this.


::hi charles how have you been?

::fine, thank you.

::now what would be the first thing you did if you got out of prison?

::i'd kill every one of you and your families.


and that's pretty much exactly how they all go...no hyperbole.

Havent heard that, but dont doubt it. The guy was and is one sick mofo.

[CW14]

How did Williams end up with five Nobel peace prize nominations? :confused:

[tehplatypus]

How did Williams end up with five Nobel peace prize nominations? :confused:

probably his work in trying to stop gang violence or his children's books.

i doubt it was the 4 murders...but you never know. maybe they were nazis and communists!

[CW14]

Mabe it was his awesome 'fro

[SPL]

Regardless of his actions now, he shouldn't be put to death. The death penalty is simply wrong in my opinion.

How is death a punishment? Life in prison with no chance of parole, now that's punishment.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

What does killing him solve?What does killing anyone solve?

Would that make up for his crimes?

NOW,at the same time,if I were to be attacked by two or more people(or one very intent person)in a viscious manner,I would take a life in defense to save myself.Hesitate and I could die.Is my life worth more than his?No,but I believe I should protect my own at all costs.

Capital punishment is difficult...people who sit there for years on end..those people that are executed might not be the same person inside or out that commited the crime.

[stackny]

What does keeping him alive solve? Youve infringed on someone elses right to life so how is it justice if you receive the right that youve removed from someone else?

Life in prison is nothing. Prisons arent even harsh anymore.

[Hammurabi]

What does keeping him alive solve?

Nothing more than killing him would. I've heard it's actually cheaper to keep people in jail for life than to execute them, but I haven't seen any of the actual numbers.

Youve infringed on someone elses right to life so how is it justice if you receive the right that youve removed from someone else?

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

Life in prison is nothing. Prisons arent even harsh anymore.

When was the last time you were in a federal pen?

[stackny]

Nothing more than killing him would. I've heard it's actually cheaper to keep people in jail for life than to execute them, but I haven't seen any of the actual numbers.



An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.



When was the last time you were in a federal pen?

I also heard its cheaper if you keep them in jail, due to the appeals and such that go into the process of the death penalty.

Pray to God I dont get thrown in jail cuz Id be someones bitch, but the prisoners nowadays have way too many freedoms. They watch tv, play sports, workout....Doesnt sound like too much punishment to me.

[SPL]

They watch tv, play sports, workout....Doesnt sound like too much punishment to me.

Well, if you don't enjoy life outside of jail, I can see how this might not seem like much of a punishment. But anyone who has somewhat of a taste for life realizes that being jailed for life is just aweful, no matter how many activities you can come up with to keep your mind occupied.

I just don't see how death is a 'bigger' punishment than life in jail. And yes, it's a fact that the automatic appeals process makes executing someone more expensive than keeping them in jail for life. Not to mention that the justice system is pretty much flawed to begin with; among all the bad guys, ever innocent people have, and probably will continue to be executed.

[Leedogg]

Is it just me, or is anyone caught up in the surrealness that only The Terminator can save his life?

[Hammurabi]

Any bets on what Arnold will decide?

[tehplatypus]

Regardless of his actions now, he shouldn't be put to death. The death penalty is simply wrong in my opinion.

How is death a punishment? Life in prison with no chance of parole, now that's punishment.


death is a punishment for those who have no regard for life because they normally value their own enough to not want to die and death is much more dissuading than cable tv, free meals, and doing nothing for the rest of your life. some people actually commit crimes like murder just for a chance to get a life sentence. how messed up is that?

[Jolly McJollyson]

I also heard its cheaper if you keep them in jail, due to the appeals and such that go into the process of the death penalty.

Pray to God I dont get thrown in jail cuz Id be someones bitch, but the prisoners nowadays have way too many freedoms. They watch tv, play sports, workout....Doesnt sound like too much punishment to me.
Well, they do get raped and shivved...

[Jolly McJollyson]

Any bets on what Arnold will decide?
Look at his approval rating. In liberal California, he's going with life in order to boost his numbers into a more salvageable range.

[rockonn91]

Well, they do get raped and shivved...
to say the least.

[Leedogg]

shivved? :confused:

[Jolly McJollyson]

shivved? :confused:
Knifed with a makeshift stabby.

[Hammurabi]

shivved? :confused:
Assaulted/slain with an improvised sharp/pointy weapon.

[Jolly McJollyson]

Lacerated with an impromptu item made with the purposes of puncture in mind.

[monkeypie420]

Well, this one has me coming outta the quiet corner where I usually lurk.. Re Tookie-- re ANYONE who was convicted in a court of law in California in the 1970s..

My dad was a homicide detecive in SoCal in the 1970s and I swear that on more than one occasion he bragged about saying 'whatever it took to put that puke behind bars' I heard his partners say much the same thing. These idiot pigs lied as a matter of course. Maybe they really believed that the ends justified the means, maybe they really believed the alleged perpetrators did what they were accused of and lying was justified if it got 'em off the streets. But the fact IS, cops lie. A lot.

What I'm saying here is, just because someone was found guilty in a California court doesn't mean they received a fair and honest trial. Cops are not to be trusted *just because* they're cops. Far from it. I grew up around cops (to me, 'pigs' for good reason) and I've never met a more dishonest, lying, racist bunch of jerks since.

I believe that Tookie has done enough time. His works in prison have more than redeemed him from anything he may or may not have done 30 years ago. Let the man go free. He says he didn't kill the people he's imprisoned for killing. Knowing what I know about California cops.. I believe him.

Preparing to Duck,

--monkeypie

[3rd_degreeburn]

"His works in prison have more than redeemed him from anything he may or may not have done 30 years ago. "
writting childrens books has redeemed the deaths of 4 DEAD people?? interesting....I emphasize dead because they are not comming back. He took those peoples right to live without care. I feel we should do the same. A change in his heart now doesn't change the past, four people are dead. Im pretty sure he knew what would happen if he got caught when he killed them

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

"He took those peoples right to live without care. I feel we should do the same."

But thats the mindset that killed those people in the first place.

and what does keeping him alive solve?It saves a life...mabey instead of killing someone we could try the opposite and save one.


Something that came to mind..my mother just came in,we talked and she hugged me.I love her greatly and if someone killed her,I would be pissed beyond pissed.

But then I thought...how would my mother treat that person?My mother would cry at the thought of someone being executed..she would want to see them think normally and benefit someone even if in a very miniscule way.It wouldn't honor her to kill them...I don't think it honors anyone.

[Hammurabi]

What does honor have to do with anything?

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

As in "honor my mothers life"...no,not like "honor my masters wishes".

People put things on graves,get fancy coffins and tell the offender to burn in hell...if my mother was murdered I would like to show kindness in honoring/in the fashion my mother would treat someone.

Mabey honor isn't the right word to use?I personally don't believe in honor...its more like "respect".

[Hammurabi]

If my mother was murdered the perp would be written about in medical journals.

[chucklivesoninmyheart]

If my mother was murdered the perp would be written about in medical journals.

Haha,yeah,if I was there,the guy would beg for lethal injection.

The thing is,I'm not sure I could stay violently pissed for 20 years...does a murderer stay one his whole life(in a mental sense)?I think of morgan freeman in the shank redemption when I say that...


I knew a murderer...he is now a pentacostal pastor.As much as I dislike the "church" and the religion,he has turned his life around in the last 20 or so years and lives a life of servitude.

[R. Shackleferd]

Should he live or die eh? Well neither I'd say...I say the system is flawed and he should already be dead shortly after his conviction and maybe a quick appeal or 2...I mean seriously, death row for 30 years? He shouldn't have even been given the chance to turn his life around. That said, I don't think anything changes now either. Guilty as charged. But I see others' points that there are worse fates than death, yet I don't think it's the jails we have now.

[tehplatypus]

Well, this one has me coming outta the quiet corner where I usually lurk.. Re Tookie-- re ANYONE who was convicted in a court of law in California in the 1970s..

My dad was a homicide detecive in SoCal in the 1970s and I swear that on more than one occasion he bragged about saying 'whatever it took to put that puke behind bars' I heard his partners say much the same thing. These idiot pigs lied as a matter of course. Maybe they really believed that the ends justified the means, maybe they really believed the alleged perpetrators did what they were accused of and lying was justified if it got 'em off the streets. But the fact IS, cops lie. A lot.

What I'm saying here is, just because someone was found guilty in a California court doesn't mean they received a fair and honest trial. Cops are not to be trusted *just because* they're cops. Far from it. I grew up around cops (to me, 'pigs' for good reason) and I've never met a more dishonest, lying, racist bunch of jerks since.

I believe that Tookie has done enough time. His works in prison have more than redeemed him from anything he may or may not have done 30 years ago. Let the man go free. He says he didn't kill the people he's imprisoned for killing. Knowing what I know about California cops.. I believe him.

Preparing to Duck,

--monkeypie


i actually extremely briefly mentioned this and about how many people are questioning whether or not he even got a fair trial and if he's actually guilty. i definately think it'd be worth investigating...at the very least, all death sentences and murder trials that were held during such a period....but then again, that'd probably bankrupt the state considering just how massive such corruption could have reached in terms of how many people.

[tehplatypus]

He shouldn't have even been given the chance to turn his life around.


that's a rather disturbing statement. your eagerness to kill makes me uneasy.[/still thinks the death sentence should remain in law]

[z0s0_jp]

i believe prisoners should "pay back society" .......actually work while doing time. sitting around playing cards and lifting weights??? gimme a friggin' break. make them do something for society. if i didn't have to work 40 plus hours a week it would be nice to find the time and energy to get buff and play cards. i think if they knew they had to work in prison for nothing, they would think twice about going....maybe. in the tookie case, i don't know the evidence against him, so i don't know.

[R. Shackleferd]

Hell man...I live in the National Captial of "Capital" punishment. Texas doesn't mess around (generally). I mean seriously...if it's ok to kill him right after he did it, I don't see how it changes any since then. So why wait that long to begin with?

[3rd_degreeburn]

I definetly agree with shackleferd...He shouldn't have been given the chance to turn his life around.. If he can dish out the crime, im pretty sure he can take the punishment. He should be glad he is in America..Countries like China will execute you for like anything...like forgery, drug smuggling,religion..China has executed more in the past three months than the world has in the past 3 years accordin to BBC news...He should be put to death IMO

[tehplatypus]

Hell man...I live in the National Captial of "Capital" punishment. Texas doesn't mess around (generally). I mean seriously...if it's ok to kill him right after he did it, I don't see how it changes any since then. So why wait that long to begin with?

to ensure that they are not killing an innocent man.


or is the cost of an innocent life tolerable if he's a scape goat?

[R. Shackleferd]

to ensure that they are not killing an innocent man
You mean where they present evidence and have testimonies and like have what is it called...oh yeah, a trial, no wait he already had one of those?

Yeah, I know what you mean though, I'm just being saracastic. But really, the "jury of your peers" should take that role seriously enough to begin with to where if there's even a shadow of a doubt, then a conviction isn't given. I'm not naive enough to think the system is flawless, but I do think we should follow through with something or not even bother. I understand there has to be an appeals process for good reason...I'm not sadistic. All within reason though, 24 years is excessive imo.

But again, like I said...I know there's worse fates than death, so I kinda feel he'd be getting it easy comparitively.
And does anyone else find it kind of amusing that his biggest supporters are Snoop Dogg, the "Rev" Jesse Jackson, and Susan Sarandon?

[Hammurabi]

He only needs one supporter, the Governator. Snoop and that other dogg rapper's support isn't worth anything because of their affiliation with the Long Beach crips.

edit- I found an awesome supporter. Clicky (http://feltup.org/).

[tehplatypus]

You mean where they present evidence and have testimonies and like have what is it called...oh yeah, a trial, no wait he already had one of those?

Yeah, I know what you mean though, I'm just being saracastic. But really, the "jury of your peers" should take that role seriously enough to begin with to where if there's even a shadow of a doubt, then a conviction isn't given. I'm not naive enough to think the system is flawless, but I do think we should follow through with something or not even bother. I understand there has to be an appeals process for good reason...I'm not sadistic. All within reason though, 24 years is excessive imo.

But again, like I said...I know there's worse fates than death, so I kinda feel he'd be getting it easy comparitively.
And does anyone else find it kind of amusing that his biggest supporters are Snoop Dogg, the "Rev" Jesse Jackson, and Susan Sarandon?


you are right but there's been a few cases where they've executed innocent men or some men have actually been found innocent.

and it actually has taken that many years because of advances in DNA evidence and other such technology that wasn't available 20+ years ago.

so i would say 24 years isn't excessive if it means making sure he isn't guilty....but we're getting off topic right now...this is more the implications of his execution and whether or not his deeds later in life make him an asset to society where his execution would be a detriment rather than a positive.

is vengence worth it if it means taking out someone who is prooving a value to society after actually being reformed (jail actually doing what it's supposed to? wow!**)




**that is, if you believe jail is about reform and not simply punishment for the sake of punishment and no lesson or understanding. but that's yet another subject...which i guess this all goes hand in hand since this one topic is bringing out all these other tangents that do, in fact, impact how this should go.


ps, 9 days left till we find out.

[Fenderalltheway]

you know what, murder is a super crime...1 murder ok...but four?and being the leader of a gang?i mean cmon, this guy killed four people. you get robbed, someone pays you back, how are you gana pay back lives?im sorry, but this guy deserves to die.he had it comin.