Tunning down leads to less quality solos or none at all?

[hann1bal]

Do you think that the tunning down of guitars for heavier music is what has lead to the drought in solos in this type of music? I personally think that everyone's just looking for the heavier riff on the top string, but they don't know the scales for the tunnings that they use. Agree/Dissagree??
Also who would you respect more...guitar players that use standard E and get their heaviness from distortion and efx (and obviously good crunchy riffs) or if it's todays metal, does it have to be tuned down??

[Willdridge]

I think the lack of solo's in a majority of today's music is more a reaction to guitar w*$king that seemed to have come so popular for many people.
Also, the speed and nature of today's music meant the solo either wasn't necessary, or just plain inappropriate.

I don't think it's a case of which deserves more of my respect; I love solos, but I love riffs. The other thing to bare in mind is that an awful lot of non-guitarists don't really understand what a solo's about...but they will remember a catchy riff (Smoke On The Water, Come As You Are, Purple Haze). Perhaps that's why the likes of Korn and Slipknot appeal to a lot of people who don't play guitar, (and I've known quite a few over the years)

In short, I think it's important for a guitarist to experiment and be able to play various styles and tunings, but they shouldn't be thought less of because they prefer to play in one particularly tuning.

Thoughts anyone?

[Homebrew1709]

The tuning of the guitar doesn't have anything to do with soloing. If you tune down, you're just playing in another key. I mean, the same patterns apply as long as you tuned down evenly. Some bands tune down simply because their singer's range is more geared towards a lower key. And btw, if you think theres a shortage of soloing in today's metal and heavy music, you obviously aren't looking hard enough.

[CW14]

The other thing to bare in mind is that an awful lot of non-guitarists don't really understand what a solo's about...but they will remember a catchy riff (Smoke On The Water, Come As You Are, Purple Haze). Perhaps that's why the likes of Korn and Slipknot appeal to a lot of people who don't play guitar, (and I've known quite a few over the years
I'm yet to hear Korn come up with a catchy riff. I get your point though.

I wouldn't say that tuning down is the cause of the draught of solos... they've just gone out of fashion.

Look at Children of Bodom... they tune to drop C, and I haven't heard any metal band solo as much as they do.

I think soloing is begining to become popular again though. Hell, Slipknot's even started including them

[Willdridge]

I'm yet to hear Korn come up with a catchy riff.

Hehehe...good point, well made...

To add to CoB, don't forget System Of A Down - most of their songs are tuned to Dropped C, they still solo...And Nickleback for that matter (never thought I'd be comparing System to Nickleback!)

I think you're right that they've gone out of fashion, but there's still plenty of bands coming out with some amazing solo's - and not necessarily being played in 16th's at 220bpm....

[3fingeredblues]

Personally, I blame Curt "KABANG" of Nirvana for the decrease of proficiency in today's music. You have to realize that a lot of the guys making music today grew up on Nirvana rather than Van Halen or Zeppelin. I'll admit that his popularity was a backlash against oversaturation of a lot of unimaginative "wankers". However, teaching guitar in the 90's was a hell of a lot easier than teaching in the 80's! The kids were just interested in learning chords and how to sound grungy rather than learning scales or technique, and during that time frame, you were actually jeered at and made fun of you you knew how to solo and liked to.

Personally, I think there are very few players that can hold your attention with long solos, but we certainly are due for another Satch, Van Halen, Page, Beck, Or Eric Johnson to come out and ignite some passion in the kids.

My two cents! lol

[Leedogg]

I kinda think it's becoming cool again to actually know how to play your guitar. I just hope this trend towards musical complexity continues in more mainstream music.

[griefwearsgray]

Personally, I blame Curt "KABANG" of Nirvana for the decrease of proficiency in today's music. You have to realize that a lot of the guys making music today grew up on Nirvana rather than Van Halen or Zeppelin. I'll admit that his popularity was a backlash against oversaturation of a lot of unimaginative "wankers". However, teaching guitar in the 90's was a hell of a lot easier than teaching in the 80's! The kids were just interested in learning chords and how to sound grungy rather than learning scales or technique, and during that time frame, you were actually jeered at and made fun of you you knew how to solo and liked to.

Personally, I think there are very few players that can hold your attention with long solos, but we certainly are due for another Satch, Van Halen, Page, Beck, Or Eric Johnson to come out and ignite some passion in the kids.

My two cents! lol


**** YOU

people listen to way more than nirvana. it goes back to the beatles, hendrix, the doors, u2, and if you have a broader range, albert king, and muddy waters, buddy guy, and such like that.

KIDS TODAY LISTEN TO MORE THAN NIRVANA!

****ING IGNORANT PEOPLE!

zeppelin was GREAT. sabath was GREAT. dp was GREAT.

van halen was not.

the "lack of solos" has decreased as the amount of good music has decreased.

it is coming back.

[3fingeredblues]

**** YOU

people listen to way more than nirvana. it goes back to the beatles, hendrix, the doors, u2, and if you have a broader range, albert king, and muddy waters, buddy guy, and such like that.

KIDS TODAY LISTEN TO MORE THAN NIRVANA!

****ING IGNORANT PEOPLE!

zeppelin was GREAT. sabath was GREAT. dp was GREAT.

van halen was not.

the "lack of solos" has decreased as the amount of good music has decreased.

it is coming back.


So tell me how you really feel...lol

Get over it....it wasn't just Nirvana, it was also MudHoney, Korn, Limpbizkit, nu-meatal in general, etc, etc.

Van Halen changed the way rock guitar was played, and the way it sounded...so now what?

And Freddie King, Albert Collins, Johny Copeland, Clarence "GateMouth" Brown, etc were excellent blues players, and I am a huge fan of these guys and many more. What about Joe Pass? D'Jango? Charlie Christian?
OR, Scotty Moore, James Burton, Eddi Cochran, etc...? Albert Lee, Ricky Scaggs, Steve Wariner?

These are not the players typical youth are listening to. So can you offer a better opinion as to why todays players hardly ever solo, other than the poor qaulity of todays, music? What would have lead to the poor quality of todays music? Could it be that a generation of players grew up on Curt Kabang?

[Leedogg]

I know y'all are both new around here, but I'd watch the tone of your posts. This is a very well moderated forum here and flaming and name-calling isn't tolerated. There's a sticky (http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10453) y'all should check out that explains the forum rules.

[3fingeredblues]

[QUOTE=Leedogg]I kinda think it's becoming cool again to actually know how to play your guitar. I just hope this trend towards musical complexity continues in more mainstream music.[/QUOTE


We could hope for that....I've been waiting for over a decade now, and I have heard a few signs of life...let us hope that it gets nurtured.

[Akira]

I kinda think it's becoming cool again to actually know how to play your guitar. I just hope this trend towards musical complexity continues in more mainstream music.

I hope so too.

[CW14]

**** YOU

people listen to way more than nirvana. it goes back to the beatles, hendrix, the doors, u2, and if you have a broader range, albert king, and muddy waters, buddy guy, and such like that.

KIDS TODAY LISTEN TO MORE THAN NIRVANA!

****ING IGNORANT PEOPLE!

zeppelin was GREAT. sabath was GREAT. dp was GREAT.

van halen was not.

the "lack of solos" has decreased as the amount of good music has decreased.

it is coming back.
Alright man, take a deep breath and count to 10.

[Willdridge]

I kinda think it's becoming cool again to actually know how to play your guitar. I just hope this trend towards musical complexity continues in more mainstream music.

Wouldn't you agree that you can play guitar without having to solo? And I mean play guitar well...Look at all the rhythm players throughout the years!

I used to subscribe to the mentally that faster was better...than I started playing to people who weren't guitarists and they couldn't care less if you can play "Flight Of The Bumblebee" at 220bpm...(I can't, but you understand my point). The whole speed thing, I've found at least, is very much for other guitarists; and to a certain extend so are solos.

Yngwie's one of the best guitarists around...but his solos don't inspire me to write music, they only kick me up the ass to try and play better...Cobain, by no means a great guitarist, has inspired me to write songs and to play for the music - and before anyone starts, I'm old enough to remember 'Nevermind' being released, having already had 'Bleach' in my possesion.

My basic point is this, (I think!)...being able to play a rip-roaring solo is something we should all strive for, but it doesn't mean every song needs a one...you can do as much with two notes as with three hundred...and for that matter, you can often do more with a riff or pause...

Well, that's my fuel to the fire...interested to see what you guys think...

[Superhuman]

Check out the latest cd by Symphony X, they down tuned and sound much heavier now but Michale Romeo still plays amazing solos and super technical riffs.

[Leedogg]

Wouldn't you agree that you can play guitar without having to solo? And I mean play guitar well...Look at all the rhythm players throughout the years!

I used to subscribe to the mentally that faster was better...than I started playing to people who weren't guitarists and they couldn't care less if you can play "Flight Of The Bumblebee" at 220bpm...(I can't, but you understand my point). The whole speed thing, I've found at least, is very much for other guitarists; and to a certain extend so are solos.

Yngwie's one of the best guitarists around...but his solos don't inspire me to write music, they only kick me up the ass to try and play better...Cobain, by no means a great guitarist, has inspired me to write songs and to play for the music - and before anyone starts, I'm old enough to remember 'Nevermind' being released, having already had 'Bleach' in my possesion.

My basic point is this, (I think!)...being able to play a rip-roaring solo is something we should all strive for, but it doesn't mean every song needs a one...you can do as much with two notes as with three hundred...and for that matter, you can often do more with a riff or pause...

Well, that's my fuel to the fire...interested to see what you guys think...


I said a trend towards complexity, not speed. How many 3 chord songs can society take before it leaves a bad taste in the mouth? Those songs are like cake. It's fun to eat every now and again, but you'll make yourself sick if it's all you ever eat.

[rockonn91]

I said a trend towards complexity, not speed. How many 3 chord songs can society take before it leaves a bad taste in the mouth? Those songs are like cake. It's fun to eat every now and again, but you'll make yourself sick if it's all you ever eat.

very nice analogy, Leedogg.

[Willdridge]

I said a trend towards complexity, not speed. How many 3 chord songs can society take before it leaves a bad taste in the mouth? Those songs are like cake. It's fun to eat every now and again, but you'll make yourself sick if it's all you ever eat.


Sorry Leedogg - almost all of that post wasn't directed at you...I agree wholehearted with that and I think it apply's both ways; too many songs with complexity (Yngwie, Satch, Vai) can get stale after awhile, hence grunge and nu-metal's surge during the ninties (the anthiesis of eighties' hair and thrash metal). Equally, I don't think we need another Nirvana - it's been done; let's just tip our hat's and create something new.

To try and expand on your point: "Too much of a good thing will kill you" Moderation is the key.

[hann1bal]

ok..so bottom line most of you don't think that guitar tunning has led to a lack of solos in the recent mainstream. I do 100% agree that their back on the rise..which is great!! I look at them as the "icing on the cake" that puts an exclamation to the mood of the song...so therefore, to me personally, they can never become stale...but ur also right, definately not needed on every song in the world.

I do however believe that anyone claiming to be the lead guitar player of a band, sometimes the only guitar in the band, should have the ability to bust out a few solos..or at least attempt a few.
I also believe for sure that the recent slump was definately due to innability to play, maybe not because of tunning, but DEFINATELY NOT because of some trend where nobody wants to hear them anymore.
Annnnnd that's the botttom line because Hannibal sed sooooooooo.....lol

[griefwearsgray]

So tell me how you really feel...lol

Get over it....it wasn't just Nirvana, it was also MudHoney, Korn, Limpbizkit, nu-meatal in general, etc, etc.

Van Halen changed the way rock guitar was played, and the way it sounded...so now what?

And Freddie King, Albert Collins, Johny Copeland, Clarence "GateMouth" Brown, etc were excellent blues players, and I am a huge fan of these guys and many more. What about Joe Pass? D'Jango? Charlie Christian?
OR, Scotty Moore, James Burton, Eddi Cochran, etc...? Albert Lee, Ricky Scaggs, Steve Wariner?

These are not the players typical youth are listening to. So can you offer a better opinion as to why todays players hardly ever solo, other than the poor qaulity of todays, music? What would have lead to the poor quality of todays music? Could it be that a generation of players grew up on Curt Kabang?


hey man i was just joking. its one of those, "you gotta know me" things. its no big deal really.

i dont like korn or l.b. or nu-metal or mudhoney, so i totally agree with you.

although, i dont agree with you on van halen. i think its just too "bubblegum rock". i feel evh could play really fast, but playing fast isnt a measure of how good you are. i think he copped alot of stuff from hendrix and frehley. but, to each his own.

i agree that the typical youth doesnt listen to all those blues masters, but the typical youth doesnt play guitar. the typical guitarist has at least heard of those guys.

question: why do you say curt kabang?

no harm done man. bye.

[griefwearsgray]

I know y'all are both new around here, but I'd watch the tone of your posts. This is a very well moderated forum here and flaming and name-calling isn't tolerated. There's a sticky (http://www.guitartricks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10453) y'all should check out that explains the forum rules.


you kids and your rules. most people think of guitar playing as a symbol of anarchy and yet this site has so many rules and you abide by them. how does make any sense.

[Jolly McJollyson]

question: why do you say curt kabang?
Because he shot himself I assume.

[griefwearsgray]

Because he shot himself I assume.


once again, to each his own. i think courtney love did it (indirectly of course, but she had it done.

[Leedogg]

you kids and your rules. most people think of guitar playing as a symbol of anarchy and yet this site has so many rules and you abide by them. how does make any sense.


If we didn't have the rules, these boards would descend into a flame-warring crap hole like so many other well-intentioned forums.

[griefwearsgray]

If we didn't have the rules, these boards would descend into a flame-warring crap hole like so many other well-intentioned forums.


i can understand that.

[3fingeredblues]

Wow Greif- you trip me out...first you curse me then say no big deal...well ok, no offense taken...anymore..lol

And yes, I call him Curt Kabang cause he shot himself...maybe a bit rude and insensitive on my part, but I'm not trying to claim Eddie Van Halen copped from Hendrix and ACE FREHLEY?!? Are you kidding me? No really, are you? I've read interviews were Ed has said that when he used the wiggle stick that he wanted the notes to sound like they were falling off the edge of a building like Hendrix did, but ACE FREHLEY?!? C'mon man...Frehley is widely thought of to be a Page clone, and the only flash he ever had was his persona and stage show...and I like Ace!

And P.S. Eddie is far more than just a soloist, he is an incredible and very underated rythym guitarist...if he didn't have good songs that were interesting it wouldn't matter how fast he could play. VH was a success in the mainstream because he had good songs. Al DiMeola is faster, but the masses of non musicians don't relate to his style because the songs aren't danceable...Satriani goes over with a lot of non-musicians because of his great rythym ability and incredible sense of lyrical melody, not just speed.

I'm from the school that thinks playing music should be like making love - you don't go fast the whole time, but there are certainly ocassions were speed IS called for ;) heh heh heh

my .02

[hann1bal]

Yea, but with a name like Ace Frehley, ur either gonna be a guitar player or a nascar driver...and u better be good too. Later when I get good, I'm gonna change my name to "FIRING" Fret Hammermen III or Puffmaster Williamson and his blunt shaped guitar or something catchy like that. Then the whole world will want to see me :cool:

[griefwearsgray]

Wow Greif- you trip me out...first you curse me then say no big deal...well ok, no offense taken...anymore..lol

And yes, I call him Curt Kabang cause he shot himself...maybe a bit rude and insensitive on my part, but I'm not trying to claim Eddie Van Halen copped from Hendrix and ACE FREHLEY?!? Are you kidding me? No really, are you? I've read interviews were Ed has said that when he used the wiggle stick that he wanted the notes to sound like they were falling off the edge of a building like Hendrix did, but ACE FREHLEY?!? C'mon man...Frehley is widely thought of to be a Page clone, and the only flash he ever had was his persona and stage show...and I like Ace!

And P.S. Eddie is far more than just a soloist, he is an incredible and very underated rythym guitarist...if he didn't have good songs that were interesting it wouldn't matter how fast he could play. VH was a success in the mainstream because he had good songs. Al DiMeola is faster, but the masses of non musicians don't relate to his style because the songs aren't danceable...Satriani goes over with a lot of non-musicians because of his great rythym ability and incredible sense of lyrical melody, not just speed.

I'm from the school that thinks playing music should be like making love - you don't go fast the whole time, but there are certainly ocassions were speed IS called for ;) heh heh heh

my .02



once again the cursing out thing was totally a joke. but, i do like to keep people guessing.

the cabang thing may be a bit rude, but who has time for all this political correctness bs? i dont.

im not saying kurt was totally original. he stole stuff from boston and rem and the beatles as well. every musician does that. when i said he copped frehley i didnt mean i like him. i wasnt trying to defend him. im not a really big kiss fan. but, its well-know that a.f. found evh. and i know for a fact that evh took the tapping from frehley. the only difference is that a.f. used a pick and not his finger.

the key to a good song is a good melody. i agree. although, im noticing some stuff coming out that sounds pretty bad and yet they still got signed. im not big on that music either.

i also agree on the music/love making thing.

bye.

[Leedogg]

once again the cursing out thing was totally a joke. but, i do like to keep people guessing.

the cabang thing may be a bit rude, but who has time for all this political correctness bs? i dont.

im not saying kurt was totally original. he stole stuff from boston and rem and the beatles as well. every musician does that. when i said he copped frehley i didnt mean i like him. i wasnt trying to defend him. im not a really big kiss fan. but, its well-know that a.f. found evh. and i know for a fact that evh took the tapping from frehley. the only difference is that a.f. used a pick and not his finger.

the key to a good song is a good melody. i agree. although, im noticing some stuff coming out that sounds pretty bad and yet they still got signed. im not big on that music either.

i also agree on the music/love making thing.

bye.

Where do you hear Boston influencing Kurt? Just wondering... :)

[3fingeredblues]

once again the cursing out thing was totally a joke. but, i do like to keep people guessing.

the cabang thing may be a bit rude, but who has time for all this political correctness bs? i dont.

im not saying kurt was totally original. he stole stuff from boston and rem and the beatles as well. every musician does that. when i said he copped frehley i didnt mean i like him. i wasnt trying to defend him. im not a really big kiss fan. but, its well-know that a.f. found evh. and i know for a fact that evh took the tapping from frehley. the only difference is that a.f. used a pick and not his finger.

the key to a good song is a good melody. i agree. although, im noticing some stuff coming out that sounds pretty bad and yet they still got signed. im not big on that music either.

i also agree on the music/love making thing.

bye.

You don't know anything for a fact, and that's a fact.
It was Gene that "discovered" VH, not Ace, and Eddie was allready tapping at that point. I have seen Kiss 4 times on the farewell tour, and have never seen or heard Ace tap. I am 33 years old and was an original KISS Army member...had the lunch pale and everything! lol Bryan May also used a tap technique, but not to the extent of VH, and if you want to get really technical, Jimmy Webster ( a Gretsch rep and fine recording artist who is universaly credited with being the first to do it) was tapping in the 50's, and my old mentor Dave Bunker Sr. (www.bunker-guitars.com) was tapping in the late 50's and in 1961 introduced the Touch Guitar that was only the second stringed instrument to recieve a patent in the U.S., and the first instrument designed soley for tap technique, and the only double neck instrument in the world where you play the two necks simultaneously. Check it out. Nicolo Paganini used tapping on his violin in the 18th and 19th century. Did Ed rip him off too? Also, Emmit Chapman invented the "Stick" in the late 60's, which is a 10 string "touch" instrument, and patented it in the early 70's

Eddie has said more than once that he didn't invent tapping, but he didn't cop it from anyone either as he was as unaware of these players, as you no doubt are...he stumbled on to it after watching Jimmy Page do a series of pull offs. You know it is possible for more than one person to have the same idea with no prior influence to lead them there. But you have to agree that there were a lot of people using there index fingers after Ed. So there :p lol

You're a funny guy Grief...but you don't know as much as you think you do. I hope you take some time to check out the info that I presented here to you, and encourage anyone else to check out these terrific players, and luthiers.

Additional - Jimmy Webster wrote a book called "Touch System for Electric and Amplified Spanish Guitar" that was published in 1952 by the Wm. J. Smith Co., Inc of Ney York, NY.

[Fretfire]

I like most of the arguments here, they are sound and frank :D , just be carefull to follow the rules here, coz name calling and flaming others are strictly prohibitted.

Anyway It doesn't mean that tuning down will lead to less quality solos , Its just a matter of preference by the artist to create a distinct sound rather than the standard E tuning or trying to focus more on the lyrics and riff instead of the solo.

I admit that Im a solid fan of shred guitar and even though most songs today lack solos, Im still not disappointed by some new breed of artist that plays some good solo's in their songs although not as fast or as technical as the past. Alterbridge is one good example, Mark Tremonti plays some wicked solos Open D tunings, Velvet Rovolver with Slash playing Eb tuning sounds great to name a few from the Mainstream.

It's just nice too see right now that many kids and adults are interested to play guitar. It's very easy to be called a "good guitar player" right Now because the standard of a good player today is not Yngwie, Vai, Satch , EVH, etc. I can say the 90's Slash , Dime and Hamett is still a tough act to follow by people then, but now your considered good if you can play Nickelback, Creed, Korn, Linkin Park, Staind, The Calling, etc. Thanks to them I can now relate to my younger friends who are just new to guitar and I feel blessed coz Im immersed with the Shred revolution. Im like a guitar hero to them everytime I play Eruption, BlackStar, Ice 9 and Sweet Child O mine solo.

The conclusion is Learn to appreciate and accept the trend (they just come and go> shred, blues, funk, metal. etc.), but always honor and remember your roots and apply them. They are good for you....Peace ;)

[griefwearsgray]

You don't know anything for a fact, and that's a fact.
It was Gene that "discovered" VH, not Ace, and Eddie was allready tapping at that point. I have seen Kiss 4 times on the farewell tour, and have never seen or heard Ace tap. I am 33 years old and was an original KISS Army member...had the lunch pale and everything! lol Bryan May also used a tap technique, but not to the extent of VH, and if you want to get really technical, Jimmy Webster ( a Gretsch rep and fine recording artist who is universaly credited with being the first to do it) was tapping in the 50's, and my old mentor Dave Bunker Sr. (www.bunker-guitars.com) was tapping in the late 50's and in 1961 introduced the Touch Guitar that was only the second stringed instrument to recieve a patent in the U.S., and the first instrument designed soley for tap technique, and the only double neck instrument in the world where you play the two necks simultaneously. Check it out. Nicolo Paganini used tapping on his violin in the 18th and 19th century. Did Ed rip him off too? Also, Emmit Chapman invented the "Stick" in the late 60's, which is a 10 string "touch" instrument, and patented it in the early 70's

Eddie has said more than once that he didn't invent tapping, but he didn't cop it from anyone either as he was as unaware of these players, as you no doubt are...he stumbled on to it after watching Jimmy Page do a series of pull offs. You know it is possible for more than one person to have the same idea with no prior influence to lead them there. But you have to agree that there were a lot of people using there index fingers after Ed. So there :p lol

You're a funny guy Grief...but you don't know as much as you think you do. I hope you take some time to check out the info that I presented here to you, and encourage anyone else to check out these terrific players, and luthiers.

Additional - Jimmy Webster wrote a book called "Touch System for Electric and Amplified Spanish Guitar" that was published in 1952 by the Wm. J. Smith Co., Inc of Ney York, NY.


the thing about ace finding evh came from guitar world where he said that himself. he also said the bit about the tapping thing. so blame guitar world and ace not me. i just figured that since he said it it was true, but i guess i was wrong.

ive heard of a few of those guys that you said and ill be sure to check the other ones out. thank you.

the kiss army lunchbox is awesome. im not even joking.

you may be right about the me not knowing much. im only 16. so i do have a lot left to learn. i dont claim to know the world over. but, i think that ive gotten a good amount in these few years ive been around.

thanks for calling me funny?

[griefwearsgray]

Where do you hear Boston influencing Kurt? Just wondering... :)

i read something by him that said he was trying to do a boston/rem kind of thing on smells like teen spirit. it does sound a lot like more than a feeling, the intro anyway, i cant really find the rem thing. but, then again, i havent heard every rem song, so its probably in there somewhere.

[Willdridge]

i read something by him that said he was trying to do a boston/rem kind of thing on smells like teen spirit. it does sound a lot like more than a feeling, the intro anyway, i cant really find the rem thing. but, then again, i havent heard every rem song, so its probably in there somewhere.

Michael Snipe (REM singer) and Kurt were actually good friends - apparently they were due to record together before Cobain's departure from this plain, (the flight tickets and studio time were booked, he called Snipe to say something had come up and a few day's later he was found dead) - source is an old UK guitar magazine I've forgotten the name of - could anyone confirm this?

Can't say I can relate 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' to Boston or REM, but, "the secret of originality is knowing how to cover your sources", so who knows?!