I want ot clear up this gay thing

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally posted by Axl_Rose
Oh here we have a guy insecure bout his sexuality!! The song is fun and groovey, so it doesnt have a fast drum beat of thrashing guitars, but neither does Sweet Child O Mine. If you call it gay then i guess your also the kinda gay who feels uneasy when "Lady in Red" is playing. Dirtbag arouses certain taboo emotions huh? Love? pain? The ability to like a sweet, perhaps girly but not gay, song!!
Jeez,
Later AXL

Alright by gay I meant crap. An example of what I mean is say someone is being a dick in general youd say their gay or their a faggot. Its the way I talk. I dont want to get into the whole homophobic issue because its a pointless old argument that never ends it just the way i talk, Im sorry if I offended anyone I was just giving my opinion.

And Axl I really dont know where your getting the trashing guitars from I dont remember mentioning it so shut the **** up.

[Bardsley]

Why does this sort of language end in immediate banning? If I were to say that when i call black guys stupid niggers because it's just the way I talk, I would rightly be flamed. The biggest thing about homophobic language is that people continue to accept that people just use it to insult people, and it is alright, because they "don't really mean gay people, it's just the way I talk", or some sh*t. And telling someone to shut the f*ck up isn't exactly cleaing things up is it.

[trendkillah]

By using language like that, you ARE going to offend people, it doesn't matter **** if that's "just the way you talk". And if you do care (like you seem to do, or at least pretend), watch your language.

[James]

My only point Zeppelin was that it's sad that "gay" and "faggot" have become common insults. You're the epitomy of this problem by saying that you substitute crap for gay sometimes just because "it's the way you talk". But I'm not really angry at you, I experience this dissapointing aspect of our culture every day, you can't escape it.

[Led Zeppelin]

Im nt saying I substitute crap for gay or anything. Its not consious that I do it. This is the way everyone I know talks and the way Ive talked for my whole life. I cant just stop like that its no onpurpose.

[Bardsley]

I know what you mean though, as I used to be guilty of the same thing. I realised that I spent a lot of time attacking homophobic points of view and I realised that subconsciously I was displaying a homophobic appearance, and while I knew I didn't think anything bad about gay people, I knew that I was contributing to the problem of homophobia by making that sort of language seem acceptable. I taught myself not to, just as I taught myself to fix up my bad technique. It seems difficult and pointless at first, but it can be remedied, and it does feel better. I probably wouldn't have some of the great friends I do now if I had continued to use homophobic language all the time for instance, and I know I don't have to worry about accidentally offending someone when i speak now. Sorry about getting so uptight by the way, I should realise tha ti most cases that sort of thing is unconscious, and so maybe I was a bit harsh. Still, I really do think you should take notice of lwhat you are saying.

[Elmo45]

....if you post something and feel you might offend someone or if you even care, at the bottom of the box after you've posted is a little "thingie" that says 'edit/delete'.
You can then look over your message you just posted and think to yourself if you want to "put yourself in check".

This is aimed to noone directly.
Peace.

[Willdridge]

It's unfortunate that minorities, (ethnic, sexual, etc.) are so often used as a insult. A lot of the time, people don't so much as think about it, it's as much their norm as sitting down and watching T.V. The biggest problem for those people who it (IMHO) rightly offends, is there's nothing we can do to make them listen. We can scream and shout at them until we're blue, it won't be what changes them.
I'm not aimming that at you Led, but this I will. I'm not saying you should change, but just hold yourself back every now and then. Your opinion and "the way you talk" is just a valid as everyone else, but we all have to be aware of what we do within a community, real-life or online. I hope you don't think I'm getting at you, I just think you could consider it.
While I think on, to the others. Tolerance. People's opinions may offend you, but there's always a reason for an opinion. It's rarely their fault, it's the people they grew up around, their family's views. Okay, so not always, but a fair amount of the time.

Enough babbling, perhaps we should think of bringing this to a close soon, I don't see us solving these problems worldwide, (sadly).

[Axl_Rose]

I've been away for a while so i missed this whole new thread developing. I guess Zeppelin, like many, is the victum of his own ignorance, and perhaps childishness. In Scotland i'm pleased to say racism affects virtually no-one. As far as calling people "gay" as an insult, thats very rare and non exsistant in most places. I assume Zeppelin doesnt know many gay people, because if he did he'd maybe realise that using the label "gay" in a petty insulting way is very offensive. However if we were to stoop as low as to use the phrase "Zeppelin" (or his real name) as a term meaning "someone of low intelligence who disregards others and cannot bring himself to apologise for his offensive comments, even after people have politely and calmly pointed out his mistakes", then i'm sure he'd soon see its consequences.

Later Axl :)

Dont be a Zeppelin!! Treat others as you'd like to be treated, with respect.

Dont hate Zeppelin cos he's ignorant, ignorance is often inherited, and so racism can be overcome if we grow out of it!!!!

[Led Zeppelin]

Look Ive said Im sorry if I offended anyone and Im not condoning what and Im not saying you dont have a right to an opinion but this Axl just drop it now, you made your point now your just being a jackass and now your calling me a racist so do us all a favour and stop trying to satrt a fight.

[Axl_Rose]

Maybe the comparison to racism in your case was unfair, although i believe homophobia to be as bad as it. Dont call me a jackass either. I posted a reply to your first "gay" comment, then about 20 people replied in anger, not me. You started this thread to which about 10 people replied, without me. Dont accuse me of starting "fights", in any case i'd win. I concluded this post but u wanted the last word. So i'll let you have it, go on, be human, make the last word sorry

Later Axl :(

[Led Zeppelin]

Drop the homophobic thing. Ive said sorry about 40 times already so just leave it.

[Bardsley]

I also agree that finishing this post is a good idea, in order to not create too much animosity amongst people. remember what everyone is here for, and that is music. I hope none of this gets in the wa;y of anyone continuing to be respectful of each other in this forum, in a way that means everybody here can continue to learn and grow in their musicianship, and so that our love of music is constantly rewarded. Now is the time to chill, I think, and remember why we are here.

[Elmo45]

.....if you wanna take it further where stuff like this can get more flames(no pun intended!) take it to Guitar.com's Misc. Board!!!
Let's keep the good music topic stuff here.
Peace.

[Majoinen]

Man you's are gay, Don't worrie Zep i'm from the same background we call things and ppl GAY all the time, my argument is that its not a racist comment, Homos aren't a Race. In the first place being gay is not gay, now i don't want to stur more S*#T up but the thing is the word Gay started as just someone being happy "gay" so if Homosexuals think it's offensive than they are going to have to come with a better one because it's not there's from the start - so in my opinion..... Zep keep truck'n cos no one should be offended, Now i definately consider myself as a NON Rascist person, don't get me rong i don't hate Homosexuals either but lets get back to the point they are not race, they are not gays they are homosexuals, if you are offended by this term "gay" then you should also be offended by every other petty little word that associates people to Prefrences (Homosexuals) that are not the Majority, because after all if you not the majority you are poorly treated! This is unfortunate but thats they way society IS!!!!!!

[Bardsley]

I don't think anyone mentioned homosexuals being a race. I used the term rascist to describe a similar situation, ie. using rascist comments in conversation is similar to using homophobic ones. Anyway, as I said, perhaps this poat could b eended now?

[Majoinen]

Fare Enough, I can see both sides, got board and thought i'de join in...............End.

[Crazy Karen]

Geez........You guys are a nightmare!!

That whole argument could have ended in about the first three posts, but nooo.....you had to keep it going didn't you.
Let me ask a question, is anyone on here a homosexual?
And if you are, are you offended by someone using the word GAY?

All of you seem to be quite happy to analise and generalise the opinion of every homosexual person in the world.

I know a few homosexuals myself and they use the term GAY to describe both their own sexual preference and things they're not fans of, so hey, if they don't have a problem with it, why should we?

Glad it has been decided this discussion is over but geez....it should never have even begun!

Kaz

[trendkillah]

Crazy Karen, please re-read the very first post.
I think you missed the whole point of the discussion.
The term 'gay' wasn't used to describe someones sexuality or someone saying they aren't a 'fan' of something but as DEROGATORY description. BIG difference.

[Edited by trendkillah on 05-25-2001 at 04:10 PM]

[trendkillah]

Originally posted by doesn't matter who

Alright by gay I meant crap. An example of what I mean is say someone is being a dick in general youd say their gay or their a faggot.

[Axl_Rose]

Good point Maj, but at what point was homophobia called racism? we all know that disliking gay people isnt racist so why mention it? ur confused!!!!!

Later Axl

[Kirk Hammett is God]

That "Race" scares me.

[Crazy Karen]

Hey Trendkillah,

Did you learn how to read?

YOU SAID: The term 'gay' wasn't used to describe someones sexuality or someone saying they aren't a 'fan' of something but as DEROGATORY description. BIG difference.

Umm...SAME THING!!! Not being a fan something is thinking something is crap, just a nicer way of putting it.

The point I'm trying to make is, if GAY people don't have a problem with the word then why should anyone else? It seems like we are creating a huge fuss over something relatively un-important.

[trendkillah]

Originally posted by Crazy Karen
The point I'm trying to make is, if GAY people don't have a problem with the word then why should anyone else? It seems like we are creating a huge fuss over something relatively un-important.


Ok, let me put it like this then.
If we don't have the right to point out that language like that could bother someone, then who are you to say that people should not be offended by it?
Let me ask you, are your gay friends 1/10 of the worlds' population? NO! Therefore their opinion doesn't say anything about others', and thus you don't have the right to tell people not to be offended.
I would be surprised if you can't even imagine how the use of adjectives like that could bother, or even offend people.

Like someone stated earlier, it's sad that language like this is becoming more and more socially accepted.
And yes, gay also means 'joyful', but you have to be pretty ignorant to believe that that's the meaning of the word that was intended.

I think I can read quite well actually, I can even make out what some of the words mean, lol.

Well, I shouldn't have posted this anyway, cause probably nobody gives a **** and will think I'm an idiot.
But i've got my own oppinion, and even though I might get childish about it like those Kirk Hammett fans on this board(no disrespect meant whatsoever), I'll defend it like those guys do.

If someone does actually agree with me, let yourself be heared, that's what this place is for.



Greetz, TK

[Edited by trendkillah on 05-28-2001 at 02:59 PM]

[James]

This type of thing is becoming more and more prevailant on this board, and it's sad. Check out the thread, "i want to clear some things up about creed"

[James Hetfield Is Jesus]

The Moderator "James" is real mature.

calling people Gay and all you know.

[Axl_Rose]

Yeah James, did u change peoples posts to make them call themselves gay? thats low

Axl

[Raskolnikov]

Homophobia is the same thing as racism. So gay people don't neccissarily look different than "normal" people, it's the same pointless hate based on superficial criteria. The same goes for hating "nerds," "hippies," people for other countries, sides of town, etc. It's the basic "I need to hate someone I can identify as different" emotion. And from the Balkans to Kashmir, to Indonisia, to America, to Uganda, I can see it tearing the world apart.

As for the gay perspective on the word "gay," it's my experience that like any other population some people are more offended than others. I have a friend who's mother is gay and she can sit there and roll off gay joke after gay joke all night long. I know another guy who only takes offence to "Fag" because it symbolises the time when homosexuals were burned alive at the steak. Other gay people I know are hyper sensitive to anything that can be taken as hurtful.

I myself take the side of the First Amendment. It's your choice if you want to be illiterate or not. I do think that we need to take a collective chill pill though.

Finally, as for the Creed thread, I would take the "I'm gay" modifacation as a "shot across the bow." James could have done far more severe and we all know it.

[zepp_rules]

i applaud James for doing what he did, the guy was doing what we are condemning on this thread and he changed it so it wasn't offensive except to the offender. according to most of the posts here, he desrved it

anyways calling or using gay as an insult is the same thing as calling an african american a N*****, it's just not right. we can't insult someone for their lifestyle, whether we agree with it or not

but we've said that millions of times on this thread, so let's just all agree that this is not right and close this thread altogether

[Jon Broderick]

This entire thread is wrong for guitar tricks. Please post those thoughts somewhere else.